Alexandria: city of knowledge and culture

26:13Heathens, they need saving? I mean, actually, that's a good guess, but it's kind of more fun than that. It's kind of a place of temptation, right? It's like the Las Vegas of North Africa. It was, it was. Because you see, you have to be tempted and to sin in order to be redeemed. Don't I know it. Yeah, I'm still in the first phase of that process. Still in very much phase one. Were there any sort of famous saints who lived at large? Yeah, and why is because there were things like aphrodisiacs, so oysters were used as aphrodisiacs. They also had birth control, I don't know if that worked, but Egyptian women would put honey into their vagina to block semen.

26:58That's what they're saying. There was actually a pill as well. It was apparently worth its weight in silver, and it was a plant called sylphium. Can I just say, it's still worth its weight in silver? The problem with sylphium is we don't actually know what it is. OK. Because it was so popular, the plant became extinct. Because of all those Christian saints having an absolutely great time. Yeah, so which answers the question is why were there so many saints? The birth control ran out. So you have, for example, St Thais was a prostitute in Alexandria who found Christianity. St Mary of Egypt travelled to Alexandria, admittedly, to enjoy casual sex.

27:43And she did so for 17 years. And then she decided... Mary, when are you going to get a job? She decided to go on a pilgrimage. Can I just write down enjoyed casual sex? 17 years. 17 years. St Mary, yeah. So it was like an important fact. And then there's the pilgrimage. But her pilgrimage was basically how many people can I seduce on my way to Jerusalem? She sees an invisible force. I don't know how you see an invisible force. No, I don't know. She feels an invisible force in Jerusalem and repents and becomes a hermit. Okay. Even monks, there were monks in the nearby desert who would travel to the city, especially for the services.

28:25So there's a 5th century text where it's recorded that a monk whose urges were on fire returned from Alexandria. There's a cream for that, I think. Returned from Alexandria suffering from syphilis. and it was a way of telling the other monks not to do what he did. But of course Christians were also persecuted by the Roman authorities and later on. Can you tell us about that? There is a lot of Christian activity. You know they translate key texts, they combine the Old and the New Testament there. They're also persecuted especially in the third century. For example there's a big pandemic. Pandemics really hurt Alexandria because it's at the crossroads at the continent and loads of people arrive from different parts of the world So it arrives in Alexandria before Europe and they blame the Christians.

29:13You know what it was? Well, they say that you don't even have to touch the other person and you get it. That's what they used to say. Oh, OK. So it was airborne. Yeah, OK. That's very relatable. They blame the Christians for that, you know, and that was one time where they were persecuted. The persecution does calm a little when Constantine transitions the Roman Empire to Christianity in the 300s. We get the pagan worship being banned in 392 and we get the expulsion of the Jews in the 400s, which I mean, that's that's interesting that the multicultural, multi-ethnic tradition of the city is being purged a little bit.

29:50It does take a long time for Alexandria to have any ghettoisation. And then it does take a long time for these kinds of things to happen as well. But yeah, the Christians are persecuted by the Romans. And then the Christians begin to persecute those whom they termed as pagans, you know, the polytheistic Egyptians and Greeks. As you say, in the 400s, there's big problems between the Jews and the Christians, and the Pope at the time expels the Jews. He has huge tensions with Egypt's governor as a result because they were still a very important part of the Egyptian culture and economy. And we've mentioned Euclid and some of the sort of great thinkers of the ancient world, but there's also Hypatia.

30:32Do you ever heard of Hypatia? No. Can you talk us through her contributions to learning? I mean, she's a mathematician, philosopher. She's probably the most famous pagan philosopher and mathematician. She was a Neoplatonist, so she renewed the ideas of Plato. And she was very popular in Alexandria, so she was kind of like a public figure. Like Carol Waldman. What's different to Carol Waldman is that she was brutally murdered by a Christian mob. Yes. And, you know, she's often considered as a result a kind of martyr to philosophy. So were the Christians anti-intellectual? Is that why they did it?

31:13Or because she was a pagan? No, I think it's more that she was having a lot of influence on the people of the city and on the governor of Egypt. And the church wanted to be in a more powerful position. but it does mark the you know the climax of the conflict between christian and pagan cultures in alexandria so obviously we've talked about pagans we've talked about polytheistic people we've talked about jews and christians and now we need to talk about the arrival of the arab caliphate that's in the 7th century is it yeah so that ends seven centuries of roman rule um the arabs are led by somebody called Ahmad ibn al-Az, who is a commander who knew the prophet Muhammad.

31:57And, you know, he turns Egypt into part of the caliphate. What that does for Alexandria is that about a millennium after it's founded, it's no longer the capital of Egypt. So they move the capital because Alexandria for the Arabs is too diverse. They don't know how to deal with all these different groups. Right. And also they don't have a navy. They're desert people. Yeah. So it's a hard place to defend. And so they move the capital. To Cairo? To what is now old Cairo. Old Cairo. OK, thank you. Yeah. So what happens to the churches and in terms of the freedom of expression? This had been a kind of quite a melting pot city.

32:40Do we get freedom of expression still? The initial idea is, yes, there's still freedom of worship. There's still freedom of expression. But as far as buildings are concerned, you know, we do see temples become churches and churches become mosques. And even today, there are mosques that have gone through that journey. OK, we start to get what's called the Islamic Golden Age. We've mentioned before in a previous episode about medieval science, we talked about the Islamic Golden Age of science. The Abbasid dynasty bring that about in Baghdad. Does it spread out to Alexandria? Does Alexandria sort of get its mojo back?

33:12To some extent, because of the texts and ideas that have come out of it. So even though Baghdad has become the kind of knowledge capital of the Arabs, they're still looking at texts that existed in Alexandria, ideas from Alexandrian scholarship, whether that's Homer, Aristotle, even Maria the Jewess, because they're very interested in alchemy. I think lots of the Alexandrian scholarship wouldn't exist without the Islamic Golden Age and the investment that the Abbasids put into that knowledge. So Alexandria was sort of coming back to its best. We have to do, I mean, we must mention another famous heist.

33:48So we've had one heist where they stole Alexander's body. Now we get another one. Venetian travellers stole the body of St Mark out of Alexandria. How do you think they pulled this off? Oh, how to steal a body? Well, what you'd do is you'd go to a fancy dress shop and you'd kind of like, you'd get a costume for it. And then you'd be like, oh, don't mind my mate. He's had too much. You know when people have too much to drink and they pass that and they're just dead weight. And so, and the costume would be, or they could be like the back end of a camel and you're the front end. Like a pantomime horse?

34:23Yeah, basically. So costumes, a costume, fancy dress. I quite like that. That's fun. Islam, is that how they pulled it off? Is it? It's probably as eccentric or more eccentric, isn't it? They covered it in pork. And then swapped it with the body of another saint. So they just sort of hid it under a massive ham? Yeah, in a basket. They put it in a basket. Okay, so we've had the kind of... The Abbasids coming along and reviving learning a little bit. Then we get the Fatimid dynasty. But the big medieval crisis that listeners will know about would be the Crusades, right? Everyone sort of is aware of the Crusades.

35:05How does that impact the city of Alexandria? Are Christian crusaders marauding through? You know, is it a trade hub? they are arriving and some of them are sort of official crusade official crusaders let's say right and some of them decided that that it would be a nice individual crusade you have sort of big armies arriving smaller armies arriving and it becomes a alexandria defensive fort for quite a while because it has to deal with these attacks because it's in such a strategic location but we We do need to say 1096 Alexandria had the world's first madrasa, which, I mean, is that an Islamic university?

35:43How would you define that? Something along those lines, yeah, or like a school of legal Islamic thinking or something along those lines, like an Islamic law school where the religion is taught, different rules are taught. So Alexandria becomes a haven for Shia Muslims at one stage, and then these madrasas open, Saladin arrives, and it becomes a much more important Islamic hub from that time on. Is that a response to the Crusades? Is it like there's all these Christians coming around with their argy-bargy? We've got to solidify, we've got to codify, we've got to find a more logical, not logical, but a consistent way to spread our message and word.

36:24To some extent, and interestingly in Alexandria, because the Jews had been there for even longer than the Christians and Muslims, the Jews began to flourish again in that time. So, you know, we have scholars who escape persecution to Alexandria in the 11th century. You know, the only medieval work compiling all aspects of Jewish observance was written in Alexandria, you know, the Mishnah Torah. Oh, really? OK. So it's becoming multicultural again. So Saladin famously was quite a tolerant guy. So sort of back to its best. And then we get the Mamluk dynasty and then the Mongols marauding in Baghdad.

37:01And so there are sort of big, big kind of history changes happening throughout. But the city is always diverse. It's always a trading hub. And it's also a place of learning throughout this. But then the 14th century brings some disasters. Athena, do you know what happens in the 1340s? Black Death. Yeah. Yeah. But it reached all the way to Alexandria. Yeah. Because of the harbour, everything reached Alexandria. Good stuff and bad stuff. Yeah. All the crazes get to Alexandria first. Right, exactly. The coffee and chess and that kind of stuff. Dubai chocolate, yeah. All of it. So the good stuff, chess and chocolate, nice.

37:39Plague, less so. There's also the Alexandrian Crusade, which kills 4 ,000 people. Some real tough times happening in the 1300s, the 14th century. And then you get the city under new management again. This time it's the Ottoman Turks Islam. And this is where the city does actually decline quite visibly. It does. I mean, late 18th century, we're talking. how do I know 15th century Ottomans so it's 300 years so we're into the 1500s so the Ottomans kept Egypt in 1517 and that's probably the least exciting part of Alexandria's history it does dwindle we know the population during the later Ottoman times so 18th century is about 15 ,000 so that's nothing like what it was before which was always in the hundreds of thousands Yeah, you said a city of a million at one point.

38:32Did they find a birth control again? Is that what it was? But there is, of course, a famously big guy. Well, he's famously not big, of course, but he shows up in the late 1700s. He's a Corsican. He's a Frenchman. Napoleon! Napoleon! He arrives in Alexandria because he's a big fanboy of Alexander the Great. And his trip to Egypt is famously violent. He goes around, you know, attacking armies and whatnot. but he also brings scholars, his famous savants, his artists, his archaeologists, right? He arrives at Pharos, you know, where Alexander was because he wants to emulate him. He does this wonderful speech to his soldiers about how they have to respect the locals and respect the faith of the locals as Alexander did.

39:14And then he literally blows up the synagogue, which, by the way, has recently been renovated and very beautifully. He kills 700 locals as he enters the city. The locals, in turn, introduce the French to hashish. There's one source that suggests that Napoleon may have had his one and only gay encounter in Alexandria as a way of emulating Alexander. Right. Did someone come up dressed as Hercules? Babe royal. And all they wanted to do was build something, but he got the wrong rung in the stick.

39:54as you say as well they are serious about egyptian archaeology yeah they draw lots of really nice pictures of egypt at the time and but they also take or help themselves to lots of stuff from egypt as well and i don't mean like little things i mean things like obelisks yeah they are transporting enormous statues obelisks famously later the rosetta stone which is is not in Alexandria but it comes through. Rosetta is just about 30 miles Rashid is it? Rashid yeah in Arabic is about 30 miles east of Alexandria which is where they stumble on the Rosetta stone. They also name things after Cleopatra that have nothing to do with her.

40:36So you know for example the obelisk the Cleopatra's needle in London and the one in New York you know they're from the 15th century BC you know dedicated to the sun god Ra. Right. and they called them Cleopatra's Needle. And of course the British are there too. I mean, famously, you know, the Battle of the Nile, you've got Lord Nelson fighting against Napoleon. In 1803, two British troops climbed onto Pompey's pillar and displayed a Union Jack on top. Well, but that's just what they did, isn't it? It's standard, isn't it? That sort of happens in most British cities on a Friday night. They gave three cheers to the king.

41:08There's a traffic cone on its head. Do you know what they were called? What, the... The two Brits. No. Steve. Almost. Keep going. Dave. They were both called John. John. John and John. John and John. John and John. And they had a beefsteak dinner on top of the Pompey pillow, which is very British, isn't it? It's also got nothing to do with Pompey. Again, of course. Okay, right. There's a Greek inscription at the bottom that says Publius, Publius, governor of Egypt. And the Crusaders, it was, who read Publius as Pompey. The British presence in Alexandria did not last that long. In 1817, they signed an agreement to leave Egypt and in comes a guy called Muhammad Ali.

41:51Not that one. Not that one. That'd have been amazing, but not that one. He's ruling with Ottoman support, Islam. What's his sort of situation? Well, I mean, he's originally from what's today in Greece, but he's got Albanian heritage. Oh, right. He doesn't really want to rule with the Ottomans, but he begins to develop so much power that they eventually agree that he can kind of represent them. but rather autonomously. He's somebody who really works on reconnecting Alexandria to the rest of the world. He begins, for example, the cotton trade, which is massive, you know, Egyptian cotton. Hugely important.

42:31There's a cotton exchange in Alexandria. He builds the trams and trains and does a lot of stuff for the infrastructure and he welcomes Europeans in as well. And there are French and Arabic newspapers being printed in printing presses. So again, it's a city of culture and learning and multicultural, multi-language, multi-faith. And again, the city's revived. Not necessarily the full glory days, but it's coming back alive after the Ottoman decline. And also, importantly, officials, civil officials and religious officials and military officials have to wear a fez from then on. Oh, really? So, I mean, no objections.

43:10I mean, I don't know why we don't do that all over the world everywhere. I'm not sure why we're not all wearing fezzers right now. Sorry, I forgot mine. And the city becomes interesting culturally again. In 1897, the Lumiere brothers shot a film there in the city. So it's, you know, the Egyptian cinema industry is famous, like they're great filmmakers, but it starts so early, 1897. I just wanted to bring you back, but I think Athena will like this. Muhammad Ali, he's known as the father of Egypt, and he died leaving behind 95 children. I mean, again, ran out of birth control. and 95 children. How many wives did he have?

43:45I don't know. He probably didn't know either. He probably ran out. I don't know, 12, 13, I have lost again. So we get something called the Nada, the Arab Enlightenment. Have I mispronounced that? Nada, yeah. Thank you. Yeah, so as you said, the Lumiere brothers go to Alexandria. Everyone's excited. You know, we have Ian Forster, among others, who writes a history of the city. he writes about losing his virginity to to um a young there's something in the water mate to a young tram conductor oh actually by the water yeah yeah um and then as you say we have the egyptian cultural renaissance as well because don't forget that the europeans are there and and you know we said egyptology european egyptology has begun well you know there's lots of stuff being plundered, reports of, you know, tomb findings being used as decor for homes.

44:38And they use mummy cases for cooking fuel and things like that. So Egyptians want to have some autonomy. And one way of doing that is through this, what's called this kind of Arab cultural awakening, the Nahda, which is a way of sort of creating cultural autonomy as a way of countering the European influence at the time. Does it work? arguably it does because of course Britain had ruled Egypt from 1882 until the revolution of 1919 and then in 1922 there is an independence granted a partial independence granted but certainly it's important date isn't it in Egyptian history absolutely yeah it works in the sense that people realize they have an autonomous identity that their culture is capable of creating amazing things just like english and french culture is and also simply the subject matter of the things being written was calling for people to realize their independence so you know to give an example you have an operetta called cleopatra and anthony where cleopatra is the hero and it's played by you know alexandrian artists and actors that kind of use of egyptian instruments all of these things that suggest Auton mean independence.

45:52Yeah, of course. So they did Alexandria and Cleopatra, the musical, before, like, Tina, the musical, before Back to the Future. They were, like, on it. That's very ahead of their time. And, of course, 1922 is when Tutankhamun was discovered. So, again, another hugely important moment in terms of Egyptian pride and its history and heritage. So the same year as independence. By the mid-20th century, so the 40s, 50s, 60s, Alexandria is the home of anti-monarchical revolution and radicalism as well, isn't it? It's a city of politics. Yeah, and it's interesting because the king was often residing in Alexandria in the palace there.

46:27And then when he's kicked out of Egypt, he's kicked out from Alexandria. This is King Farouk, is it? King Farouk, exactly. And, you know, he was popular with many, but out of touch with many as well. You know, there are recurring rumours that he was eating 600 oysters a week. Yeah, maybe he needed a zinc. Okay, maybe he was deficient, guys. Or maybe he was trying to, you know, population boom was just him. He was just like, come on. There's also a famous rumour that his breakfast was delivered by air from Paris. Oh, my word. That's great. Croissant all the way from Paris, please. So he's replaced in 1952 by Nasser, the prime minister, who sort of becomes a president figure, doesn't he?

47:08He does. I mean, Nasser doesn't become the first president. He's sort of the deputy to Naguib who becomes the first president, but Nasser becomes the famous president from a few months later. It's a time of rising Arab nationalism. OK, so there is a sort of sense of the city becoming an Arab cultural centre? It's interesting because I wouldn't say it's an exodus of non-Egyptians because they were all Egyptians. Right. So, you know, the Jews were Egyptians. You know, in 1947, there's still over 20 ,000 Jews in Alexandria. I found the statistics that 4 % of them married non-Jews in the 10 years preceding.

47:44So there was intermarriage and so on. In 1948, with the founding of Israel and so on, many of them leave. Then with the Arab nationalism, many more are expelled. And that includes the Jews. It also includes some Europeans as well who leave in the 50s and 60s. And, of course, there's the war in 67, conflicts again in 73. There are kind of the geopolitical situation then between Israel and Egypt. Yeah, three wars essentially, 67, 70 and 73. That war with Israel leads to an intensification of both Arab and Muslim identities in Egypt. And that affects Alexandria more than it affects other cities because Alexandria is so diverse.

48:32Yeah. And today Alexandria is a beautiful city and is still linked back to its history. I mean, it's an extraordinary story, Athena, isn't it? It's sort of weird how it kind of goes around in circles as well. like it's kind of like multiculturalism, liberalism and then something else and then back to that and then back to that and back to that. So it's a city that's always fighting to be a certain place. The Nuance Window!

48:58Time now for The Nuance Window. This is where Athena and I sit in the quiet section of the library for two minutes while Professor Islam tells us something we need to know about Alexandria. So take it away, Professor Isa. I want to say something obvious, that there's much to gain when Egypt is studied by an Egyptian, or in this case, an Alexandrian. Like me, Alexandrians today are the 100th generation to carry that name. Even as a child, darting across the promenade, Cleopatra embossed pocket money clinking in my pocket, I felt the city's magnitude, its history in the air. History is not just dates, wars and figures.

49:40Here there were ideas, inventions, dreams, love, hate and the occasional miracle. To capture this tapestry, scholarship alone isn't enough. I discovered and translated 9th century Islamic poetry about Alexander and 11th century letters from Alexandrian Jews. I took in folk tales and oral histories. I drank tea with family elders and friendly strangers. I chatted with librarians and eccentric vagabonds. Being a flaneur became as vital as pouring over dusty archives. Coffee reached Alexandria before Italy and a century before England, so cafes fittingly became central to my experience. In one, the barista wrote my name on the cup in beautiful Arabic and I almost wept, overwhelmed by its sheer normality.

50:30In another, I paused at a portrait of Alexander blowing a big pink bubble. In cafes, I heard a dozen theories about his tomb's location. It confirmed, impossible to a non-native speaker or cultural outsider, that Alexander lives on in the city's collective consciousness. Armed with linguistic and colloquial fluency, with cultural knowledge and memory, I roamed Alexandria's streets, unravelling the threads woven into its soul, the invisible stories hidden in plain sight. With its universal appeal, Egypt continues to be explored, even claimed, by scholars whose narratives at best miss the nuances of its culture and history, and at worst undermine or erase the people for whom that history isn't a mere curiosity or day job, but a defining, enduring identity.

51:26People often ask what Alexandria means to me, expecting facts and figures about an ancient city. But for me, it's people watching from the balcony. It's cats weaving around my feet. It's the sound of a classical Egyptian melody echoing in a moonlit cafe. Thank you so much. That's beautiful. Athena, any thoughts? I've done a few You're Dead to Me's, which is a real honor this is probably the one that makes me want to go and book a holiday like right now like what a lovely way to contextualize history as something it's it's here today and it's inherited by the people who who are present there and the diversity of it and i think that's a wonderful advertisement what a lovely way to position it rather than in 1066 it's more like come and have a coffee we'll write your name and i'm a harrick on it it's lovely so what do you know now

52:22it's time now for the so what do you know now which is our quick fire quiz for archimedean athena athena your notes have been pretty extensive i've heard you scribbling away i know my sound writing so bad though oh no okay we've got 10 questions for you here we go question one which wonder of the world was built on pharos in ptolemaic alexandria lighthouse it was the lighthouse. Question two. Alexandria is named after which ancient ruler? Alexandria the Great. Yeah, that's an easy one, isn't it? Question three. How did librarians in Alexandria expand their book collections? They stole books. They nicked books.

52:57When ships were leaving, they were like, give me your book, and they'd nicked the book and give back a counterfeit. That's right. Amazing. Hand back a copy. Question four. Why was Alexandria popular for wannabe saints? Because you could get laid. Lots of sex. Yeah, basically lots of sex. Yeah, absolutely. A city of temptations. Question five. Which Alexandrian mathematician killed by Christians has been described as a martyr to philosophy? H. I wrote it down. I've got Hypatia. Yeah, Hypatia. Well done. Very good. Excellent. Question six. In 828, how did Venetian merchants smuggle out St Mark's body from Alexandria?

53:33They covered him in bacon. Or another pork product. Salami. Turned him into BLT. I think it was pickled. Pickled. There you go. Yeah, ham and pickles, a perfect sandwich. Question seven, name one of the factors which led to social and economic decline in Alexandria in the 14th century. Oh, Black Death. Yeah, big old plague and earthquakes and all sorts of things. Question eight, by 1096, Alexandria had the world's first madrasa. What is a madrasa? A school of Islamic teaching. Yeah, and law, yeah, absolutely. Question nine, name the most famous artefact plundered from Nia to Alexandria during Napoleon's campaigns in Egypt.

54:09Was that a stone? It was, yeah, about 30 miles away from the city. And question 10, for a perfect 10 out of 10, in the late 19th and 20th century, what was the Narda movement? The cultural renaissance. Very good, amazing Narda. Never in doubt, 10 out of 10. Athena, so good. So relieved. Question 11, St Mary enjoyed casual sex for 17 years. Yeah, that should have been in there, shouldn't it? Come on, let's be honest. All right, 11 out of 10, well done, Athena. Thank you so much, Athena. And listener, if you want more from Athena, check out our past episodes on Haitian Revolution. We did Madame CJ Walker.

54:41We did Injinga, Redongo and Matamba. If cities are your thing, have a listen to our episode on Istanbul in the Ottoman Golden Age with Sue Perkins and Professor Ebru Boyar. Plus we did episodes on Saladin and Young Napoleon, both mentioned today. We've got lots of back catalogue to go and enjoy. Remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please share the show with friends. Subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sounds in the UK to get episodes 28 days earlier than in any other app. And switch on your notifications so you never miss an episode. I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner, we had the wonderful Professor Islam Issa from Birmingham City University.

55:14Thank you, Islam. Thank you, Greg. I take my figurative fez off to you. And in Comedy Corner, we had the awesome Athena Kiblenu. Thank you, Athena. Thank you for having me. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we explore another historical hotspot. But for now, I'm off to go and smuggle out my favourite library books, hiding them inside a ham sandwich. Bye!

55:37Your Dead to Me is a BBC Studios audio production for BBC Radio 4.

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