El Cid: the life and legend of a medieval Spanish warrior

26:51Amazing. You just transferred him. Yes. You're playing in the youth team now. Sorry. OK. And where is Valencia in the geography of Spain? Is it West Bain? So, well, it's on the coast, eastern coast. And it was quite far down in Muslim lands at this point. OK, on the eastern coast. OK, thank you. Rodrigo has seized this city. He seized Valencia. Valencia. Well, so, I mean, he had been collecting tribute from there. And so he has men who were then either captured during this rebellion or had to flee. And it's at this point that Rodrigo decides to besiege the city. Right. So the siege means surrounding the city, starving it, raiding the surrounding countryside.

27:35According to one report, he actually had people who tried to come out of the city to look for food burned alive. So the siege is brutal, but it's actually not so much using military machinery against the walls. It's just a waiting game. Right. So you're starving the city out. Yeah. And Ibn Jahaf tries to get help from the Almoravids, who do send an army. But torrential rains and Rodrigo cutting the dams of the river Turia floods the area between the Almoravids and Rodrigo's army. So Rodrigo basically foils this plan to get outside help. And in the end, in 1094, Valencia surrenders and Rodrigo becomes its ruler now.

28:18So he officially calls himself and is called by his subjects princeps, prince, which is a kind of term for rulers who are not kings. So it's not quite a king, but it's an independent ruler. Princep means first in Latin, doesn't it? Sort of the top man. Yeah. And this was the kind of title used for, for example, Counts of Barcelona. now. So people who were independent rulers. So he's Prince Rodrigo. Yeah, he's gone up. It's kind of worked out for him. How do you think he rules over Valenti? Do you think he's a kind, progressive ruler, a man of great intellect and compassion? Why are you laughing?

28:55I think from the framing of that question I'm going to go with no, no, no, no. Okay, fair. Laura, maybe I led a bit too heavily on the kind of, you know, he's a good guy. I mean, medieval princes and kings, they're pretty brutal as a general rule. Yes. But also I have to say that the medieval sources were not particularly interested in what kind of a ruler he was. They were much more interested in his military feats. So they talk about his battles and how he devastated enemy lands. But they say very little about how he ruled. What we know is that he reestablished the bishopric of Valencia. And he asked for the papacy to basically directly subject this bishopric to papal power.

29:40So it may also confer more independence on him and perhaps kind of some plan to eventually become a king. Apparently, initially, he appointed a Muslim official to oversee his Muslim subjects. But he also clearly was accused of oppressing and extorting the Muslims. There were waves of emigration and expulsion. And according to one account, he had books read out to him and particularly enjoyed the biography of a Muslim general who had lived a long time previously. But at the same time, Muslim authors wrote about him very negatively. Ibn Bassam, who was an Andalusi Muslim author at the beginning of the 12th century, recounted how Rodrigo had this judge, Ibn Jahav, also burnt to death at the start of his reign and called him a clever but greedy tyrant, swollen with pride.

30:36And these Arabic texts basically have all sorts of epithets for him, not very kind. Enemy dog, accursed, the oppressor. Rodrigo, the oppressor. Not really like a very popular boss then. Toussaint, do you think this is going to work out for him long term? What do you think his chances are of success? I think he's going to end up with not much of a kingdom left if he keeps setting everyone on fire. I don't know if that's sustainable. You think he's burning through the goodwill, quite literally. Okay, Nora, is Toussaint's caution well-founded? Well, he might have run into that problem, but actually he died.

31:21He died in 1099 of natural causes, unlike the film, and he did not leave a male heir, so no son who could have... Oh, so the son in the source that you talked about, Diego's son, he would have died. Okay, he died. And his daughters would inherit? His widow Ximena inherited. His daughters were married. They were married, but it was Ximena who then ruled Valencia for three years. But then the Almoravids started to besiege Valencia and Ximena asked Alfonso VI for help. So at this point, yeah, it's difficult to hold the city against this army. And Alfonso does arrive with an army. He does? Yeah, he does.

32:04Oh, fair play, Alfonso. He doesn't seem to bear grudges, yes. He had every reason to be like, nope. I mean, also, of course, remember, she was a kinswoman of his. And, of course, Rodrigo was already dead. So, yeah, he arrives with an army, lifts the siege, but he cannot maintain the defence of Valencia so far away from his own land. So, basically, the city is evacuated. Everybody with their possessions go north to Castile. Alfonso has the city burned, so not to leave it intact for the Almoravids. And Ximena also takes Rodrigo's remains and has him reburied in a monastery called San Pedro de Cardenia.

32:46Wow. So she takes her dead hubby with her and the bones are repositioned, relocated to a monastery. San Pedro de Cardenia, where is that in Spain? So that's not very far from Burgos. OK, all right. So is that a sort of nice monastery? Is that a good spot? It's a very nice spot. It's very far now from any kind of public transportation. Right. So it's quite secluded. And of course, most of it is... He would have liked that. Yes. He would have liked that. Uninterrupted. Exactly. He's got his pillow. He's enjoying his kip. OK, so Rodrigo and Ximena, they both live quite a life, Toussaint. Yeah. How do you feel about him in particular?

33:26Are you a fan of what we've told you? You know what? I am. I can relate. Yeah, I think he was just a pragmatic guy trying to make his way in the world, doing what he knew he could do, which was killing and burning people. Not a bit I'd less relate to, but the freelance bit I could get on board with.

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34:51Don't get up yet though, Tucson We're not done yet Because we're going to now talk about The kind of the afterlife of Rodrigo Or rather, El Cid This whole other guy that he becomes So the historical man We've talked about We know who he is But how do you think the story of the El Cid Starts to be created? What do you think is the kind of initial turning point? Well, I mean, it was no one in that city Because they were all burnt to life So I'm quite baffled as to who was Who was left to spread this story about El Cid, to be honest? Who wasn't smoking? I'm not quite sure who it was. It wasn't Alfonso Alex, he hated him, but who was, where did El Cid come from?

35:29I mean, Nora, as a medieval historian, I'm going to pitch two things at you. One would be the Crusades. The first crusade has happened by this point. The second one would be the Reconquista, which is the Christian reconquest of Spain, this process that happens over three, four centuries. Is it a religious revival? So part of it is religious, although the Reconquista is a bit more complicated. It's the kind of later invention in that form. But a series of people and reasons, actually, partly his descendants, they didn't go up in smoke. So his daughters obviously had children. And actually, some of his descendants became kings eventually in the Iberian Peninsula, Kings of Castile.

36:07So they have an interest in kind of whitewashing their ancestor. There is this kind of religious rhetoric, which is indeed important. And in the 12th, 13th centuries, especially the war that was still a much messier war on the ground, but it was increasingly accompanied by a kind of ecclesiastical rhetoric, which presented it at least as sort of Christian war against Muslims. It wasn't quite matching realities, but you have that very strong rhetoric of the restoration of Christian lands. Two more reasons, really. One was the creation of a prestigious past for Castile, because Castile, by the 13th century, became the most important Christian kingdom.

36:47But at the start, it didn't have a particularly illustrious beginning. So now they're looking for Castilian heroes. So here is Elthid. And then finally, the monastery, the monastery of San Pedro de Cardenio, where he's buried. The monks are fantastic producers of all kinds of stories and tales and really foster his cult. They kind of create these fictional links between the live Rodrigo, as if he had already sort of chosen the monastery in all kinds of ways. And they, of course, want to attract donations and also have this very prestigious patron. And they actually try to have him canonized as a saint eventually.

37:27Oh, really? And Toussaint, in one medieval text, El Cid's death was famously rewritten. You could probably guess what they say, because I think you alluded to it at the beginning of the show. Do you know what it says? Is it that he rides his horse even though he's dead? Yeah, that's right. He almost rides his horse. Which sounds weird. And he inspired his men to victory, was it? That's it, right. Yes, Nora, the legend, L 'Endia de Cardenia, tells us that, what, they strap into a horse? and sort of go, gee it up, you know, and off he goes, riding into battle. Well, yes, although it's kind of even more intriguing than that, because according to the story, which was written in the 13th century and then incorporated into the official court chronicles of the Castilian kings.

38:13The horse was also dead. No, although the horse can also be an important player later on. But according to this, St. Peter... The horse becomes a king as well. I'm going to get on this, actually. I'm going to get on this king economy. I'm not making way enough money as a horse. I'm going to be a ruler, actually. I've changed my mind. So St. Peter appears to Rodrigo for telling his death and a victory after death. Wow. Good news, bad news. Yeah, exactly. Which one do you want first? And Rodrigo prepares for this for seven days. He doesn't eat. He just drinks a bit of water mixed with myrrh and balsam.

38:54So he basically is embalming himself while he's still alive and joins on his wife and closest followers to prepare his corpse for this posthumous victory. So indeed he dies. A Muslim army led by Bukhar attacks. For nine days they fight against them. And of course people don't know what's going on. Rodrigo doesn't come, doesn't appear. And then after that, they put him in his armor, strap him on his horse, fix his sword in his hand. And together with the army, he sort of charges out, helped by no other than St. James the Apostle along with the heavenly host. So I think you cannot do better than that.

39:38And of course, they defeat the Muslim army. The text also then deprives the Muslims of the victory of taking, of retaking Valencia. Because according to this, Rodrigo wanted to be buried at San Pedro de Cardeña. So immediately after he died, so after this victory, they take the corpse to be buried. And everybody wants to participate. So the whole town is empty because all the inhabitants go to bury him in San Pedro. So the Muslims can take the city, but it's not a military victory. So it's not an evacuation. They've just all gone to the funeral. Yeah, exactly. A different take on an open casket funeral, isn't it?

40:17Well, actually, if I can, because the story goes on, the corpse is so intact that he may not doesn't want him buried. So for 10 years, he actually sits on a kind of stool in the church. He performs miracles and then the tip of his nose falls off and then they bury him. and just one line about the horse because according to the same text the horse is then taken very good care of at the monastery so he has this very long nice life and they make sure that there are lots of fillies so his line is perpetuated i'm sorry what is this text and what would the person who wrote that text smoking because this is you want some of that but he He was a monk, I'm afraid.

41:05Let's jump forward. So he's called El Cid by this point, right? The name Rodrigo has sort of turned into the Lord. Let's get to Napoleonic times. In 1808, Napoleon invaded Spain. I don't know if you know that. It's not that well known here, unless people are fans of Sharp. And he brings with him a huge army and these soldiers, and they bring, of course, generals and officers and so forth. And there is a sort of tension when they get to the tomb of Rodrigo El Cid because the soldiers and the generals don't agree on what to do, right? Can you tell us the story? Yeah, so the soldiers initially just loot the tomb.

41:41They're probably looking for gold jewels, but they also scatter the remains, so they don't really care. But various Frenchmen do care. And of course, through Cornet's drama about the Cid, he's already well known in France as well. Oh, so a French play. So the French play is kind of, yeah, made him known in France. According to one version, the man who became the director of what is now the Louvre Museum, Dominique Vivant, Baron de Non, kind of gathered the remains and put them back in the sarcophagus. So there's a painting of that. But according to another account, this could not have happened because another Frenchman, a general in Napoleon's army, who was also appointed governor of Old Castile, vindicated to himself this kind of deed of saving the remains.

42:28And this guy goes by the very fetching name of Paul Charles François-Audrien-Henri Diodonné Thiebaud. And he decided that he wanted... How many names do you want? Yeah. He decided that he needs to show the locals that the French are not horrific barbarians. Right. So he decides to have a very big tomb, elaborate tomb erected in Burgos. So in a very visible kind of central place and have the remains of the Thid reburied in this tomb. In the meantime, waiting for this tomb to be constructed, he has the bones wrapped up and stores them under his bed. OK, you lost me on that bit. What's the thinking there?

43:14For safekeeping, he's afraid people will steal the bones. So then they finish this big tomb and with a great pomp and circumstance and all the local authorities and great fanfare, they rebury the remains. And Thiebaud congratulates himself that he is now getting the respect of the locals for this fantastic deed. Unfortunately, after this, suddenly this small Spanish scholar goes up to him and says, well, you know, this guy never existed. So Tiebo is quite devastated And now he really wants to know the truth So he starts consulting everybody And finally another Spanish historian tells him That he really does not believe That a man called Ruy Diaz To whom one can attribute all these deeds That are given to the Cid Actually existed It's a creation of the monks Who made him their Don Quixote Right And Thiebaud is really aggrieved, but he doesn't want to let go of the Sith.

44:19Just spend all this money on a tomb. Exactly. I've just slept on these bones. It's the most uncomfortable sleep of my life. I see you're very focused on sleep. Yeah, you are. That is deep. And so Thiebaud basically decides that the existence of so many stories, so many legends, so many objects associated to the Sith or proof enough for the real existence of the man. Good. We can say that he's true. Rodrigo Diaz, we believe, historically existed as a man, but the later legends are added on and the horse gets added in extra as well. Okay, we do need to talk about a darker part of Spanish history, which, of course, in the 20th century, General Franco comes to power.

45:03Do you know anything about Franco? Familiar, yeah. Yeah, kind of fascist, right, kind of in the same era as the Nazis. Yeah, that's right. I think we could sort of call him a kind of nationalist, military dictator, authoritarian. This is a hard-line guy. And he uses history as a propaganda tool to lift up his regime. And that regime is underpinned by muscular Christianity. Tell us more about that sort of relationship between history, myth and politics. So Franco emerged, of course, as the victor of the Spanish Civil War, leading the nationalist forces. He was aided indeed by Hitler, Mussolini and Salazar.

45:44And once he overthrew the legitimate government, he established his own and he was in power until he died in 1975. So for the Francoists, Alcide was basically this hero who was also a kind of prefiguration of Franco. So he was obviously a devout Christian who fought for the faith. He was a leader of the reconquest. He was a loyal vassal of Alfonso VI. But especially he wanted to create a kind of homogeneous Castilian-led Spain, which is, of course, what Francoists were actually doing. So this is when the reconquest is really born, in a sense, that this idea that the Spanish character was really formed through centuries of warfare, and this warfare was simply Christians against Muslims.

46:32Castile was the natural leader and always has been. And Spain had to become much more homogeneous under this kind of Christian nationalist Castilian leadership. And El Cid was portrayed as this first leader. And of course, Franco was called Caudillo leader, exactly the same as Führer. So this leader cult made the Cid very important. And he also, of course, was already very much part of Spanish kind of identity. So a historian, Romo Menendez Pidal, wrote about him. So even Franco's adversaries tried to claim the SID to some extent. Yeah, that's interesting to me that the Republican army on the opposite side also said, no, El SID's our guy, because it's to do with the Moroccan soldiers in the Sourney.

47:20Yes. So they saw themselves as the descendants of this liberal Sid and fighting against the Francoists as the Moors and kind of the Muslims in Franco's army. And Nora, by the Republican side of the civil war, what do we mean by that? So society was so fragmented that Republicans were basically what we would call the political left and more liberal, wanted to reform Spain, Spanish society, wanted the separation of church and state, things like this. And the governments alternated between this left and right. And so at the time when the military coup was arranged, which eventually led to the civil war, there was a Republican government.

48:06Yeah, so not the current American political party, of course. Absolutely not. No, no. This is Spain we're talking about. Entirely different country. There was more and more of a parallel being drawn by his followers between Franco and the Cid. So it's quite stomach turning sometimes this adulation with which they talked about both the Cid and Franco. And of course, famously, Franco himself wanted to sort of take on the mantle of the Cid. He wanted to sort of be thought of as a modern version. So we've got a lovely, I say lovely, we've got a distinctive mural image we can show you here, Toussaint.

48:43Wait, is he riding a horse? Yes, he is. Okay, all right, sure. Do you want to turn it over? Actually, no, he's not in this one, is it? No, it's not a horse this time, isn't it? I've seen another one, I think. There's a horse, but it's not him. There is a horse in there. There's a horse in the background. Is that Sid on the horse? Yes, so that's St. James on the horse. Do you want to talk us through this mural? to Sizer. I mean, there's a lot. I think Nora's more qualified, but I'll give it a good shot. So we got, I'm assuming it's Franco in the centre of it. Yep.

49:19It's like they put a man going through a midlife crisis, the head of a man going through a midlife crisis who's taken up cycling, you know, in his late 50s, you know, like spent 10 grand on a carbon fibre bike, just racing against the passing of time and they've just plumped that head on the body of a knight. Yeah, yeah. He's got a sort of pencil moustache sort of Hitler style. He's kind of balding and quite sort of pasty. He does look like a sort of Basil Fawlty type character. It's quite, it's not very muscular. Late age 40. And yes, he's got a sword and he's wearing a suit of armour and surrounding him are modern day 20th century soldiers doing fascist salutes.

49:59They're obviously of his army. And then in the background, we have this St. James flying through the air on a flying horse. Yeah, so that's kind of the heavenly host coming to help the Christian cause. It's a bizarre image and deeply comedic to us, I think, now. But, you know, this is Franco saying, I'm a great mighty warrior, a man of great martial character. So the myth of El Cid becomes incorporated into the fascist authoritarian regime, but also is used by his opponents, the Republicans. Yeah. So, I mean, just to say this was originally planned for the Bayadolos Caídos. So this was this big monument built with the slave labor of Republicans.

50:38Franco eventually was buried there. Finally, now his remains were removed. But this was to be put up there. It wasn't in the end. But it's supposed to be a kind of, you know, apotheosis of Francoist Spain. So the Christian nationalist idea. I mean, it was painted by an artist. I've never seen anything looking more AI generated in my life. Yeah. It's such... It's a proper AI slot. It is, isn't it? So there we go. Toussaint, it's been quite the journey, the story of El Cid, Rodrigo. How do you feel about him now? I mean, he can't control what happens to him after he died. No. So I'm still, you know, I'm there with him about kind of, yeah.

51:18I'm a Cid fan-ish. Okay. Yeah. I don't know what the Cid... A Cidist? Cidist, yeah. That is why I didn't say it. No. Cidist is... A recidivist? I don't know, that's not a word, is it? All right, well, you know, I'm glad you're on his team. He definitely did some bad stuff, but I think most people in medieval history did bad stuff. So there we go. Not really a great hero, but certainly an interesting guy and more interesting than a movie made sound, I think. Like, you know, a freelancer come good. Or bad, I don't know. The Nuance Window!

51:51Time now for The Nuance Window. This is where Toussaint and I sit quietly and snack on our myrrh and balsam so we can mummify ourselves for two minutes while Professor Nora rides into battle, hopefully still alive, to tell us something we need to know about El Cid slash Rodrigo Diaz. My stopwatch is ready. Take it away, Professor Behrend. What I think is very intriguing is not simply how Rodrigo Diaz was transformed into El Cid, but how that mythical construct then became a kind of mascot and rallying cry for both the right and the left. And of course, we talked more about the right, although we mentioned the left a little bit, the political left.

52:30And even, of course, today, now, the new right and far right again uses Al-Sidh as a kind of prototype white supremacist fighting against Muslims and migrants. But very strangely, he's also been picked up as a model guy for peaceful coexistence and multiculturalism. So somebody who lived together with and learned from Muslims. So I think this is a very interesting mixture. And of course, the left wing use of the Sid goes back already to early modern times. When this legend that I mentioned developed about him enforcing this oath so that the nobles would not accept Afonso VI until he swears he had nothing to do with his brother's murder, Sancho's murder.

53:18That turns Sid into a kind of person who can hold kings to justice, someone who's against tyranny, someone who's a Republican. And so in early modern times, he's already represented in this way. And in the 19th century, when in 1820, Colonel Riego reintroduced the liberal constitution, there was a song written for the so-called anthem of Riego written for this, which then became the Republican kind of national anthem. There, the Cid is really kind of the representative of the good guys. The liberals are his sons. So I think this is quite a posthumous career for such an opportunistic warrior. Amazing.

54:03Thank you so much. Two minutes on the clock. I mean, amazing. One minute 59. That was brilliant. That was great. So there we go. He's everything to everyone. Yeah, I think for me, El Cid, to me, I'm going to use El Cid like when I have like a really bad gig. You know, when I like really die, I'm just going to die. I'm just going to go like that. Strap yourself to a horse. Yeah, strap myself to a horse. And like when I have to go to like, I don't know, you know, slough for a gig or something. I'll just strap myself to a horse. right into battle. Anyway, that was lots of fun. Thank you so much for that fascinating insight.

54:38It's really interesting, isn't it, how these historical figures can be multi-polarised. They can mean so much to different people for different reasons. So what do you know now?

54:52Great, well, it's time now for the So what do you know now? This is our quickfire quiz for Toussaint to see how much he has learned today. Toussaint, last time, I think you got a bonus point. so maybe we need to see if that can be done again. Okay. Are you feeling confident? Look, Nora did set out incredibly so yeah, I think I've got a chance. I think I've got a chance, Greg. Okay, all right. Well, let's see if there's a... You don't sound confident. That didn't sound confident from you. I believe in you. I believe in you but you know, 11 out of 10, it's hard to put off so let's try. Okay, question one.

55:24What's one theory about where the name El Cid came from or meant? There are lots of theories So one of the theories is that it's actually derived from Muslim. So the Muslims who were under him would call him the Islamic version of that. Which I don't have to have. Which means the? Their lord. Their lord, that's right. The lord of my lord. Everyone was called a lord or no one was called a lord. Very good. Question two. Who did Rodrigo work for after being exiled by Alfonso for the first time? It was Islamic. It was, yeah, absolutely. It was the grandfather, the father and the son in Zaragoza. Yeah, very good.

56:04Question three. What strategy used by Christian kingdoms to plunder land in Iberia was Rodrigo big into? Similar to mafia bosses. Yeah, so it was a protection racket. So they would go in, they would mess things up, and then they would say, if you don't want that to happen again, we'll protect you from ourselves. Yeah, exactly. Take out insurance policy against me. Question four. Name one reason why King Alfonso and Rodrigo fell out. over numerous times. I mean, so many reasons. Where to start with these two? Gosh, I just don't think they were emotionally available to each other, really, was one reason.

56:38But we're talking historical reasons. One reason why they fell out was Rodrigo disrespected Alfonso by placing his camp ahead of him. That's right, it's right. And also at one point he didn't show up to an army because he didn't see the army. He didn't see it. He didn't see it. He didn't see the army. Question five. What Spanish city did Rodrigo become the prince and ruler of? Valencia. It was Valencia. Question six. What was the name of Rodrigo's wife, who also, after him, ruled Valencia? Jimena. It was. Very good. Question seven. What role did the monastery of San Pedro de Cardeña play in El Cid's life and later legend?

57:11So it was the last resting place for his remains and was the content factory, I guess, for his legacy. Yeah. Pumping out the merch and the myths. Very good. Question eight. In one legend, how did the Cid help his army despite being dead? He strapped himself to a horse and he rode off into battle and inspired them. That's right. He had mummified himself ready for it. Question nine. Where did one of Napoleon's generals keep Rodrigo's bones after the French troops had desecrated his tomb? Under his mattress. Yes, absolutely. Question ten. which 20th century Spanish ruler likened themselves to El Cid, including in a famously bad mural.

57:56Is that Franco? Franco stroke Basil 40. So he's done 10 out of 10. Can he get the bonus points? Question 11. What was King Sancho II doing when he was apparently assassinated? He was relieving himself on a wall. He absolutely was. 11 out of 10, he's done it again. Unbelievable. It's a miracle. It's a miracle. There's no stopping this man. St. James is the apostle. He's flying over me with his flying horse and he guided me through to the wind. Thank you, El Cid. Gracias. Well done, Tucson. Very impressive. And thank you, Nora, for a wonderful history lesson. Listener, if you want more Spanish history, we have episodes, of course, on Al-Andalus or Hernán Cortés and Melintzin.

58:41For more famous medieval warriors, we've covered Joan of Arc. That's all the way back in series one. You have to scroll forever on the app, sorry. We've done Owen Glyndour in Wales. And of course, for more Toussaint, we've gone into American history with Frederick Douglass, an extraordinary man, brilliant man, and well worth knowing about. And we did the causes of the British Civil Wars. So we've covered all sorts of stuff together. Marvel episode. It was. If you've enjoyed the podcast, please share the show with your friends. Subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sounds to hear new episodes 28 days earlier than anywhere else.

59:09Lucky you. If you're outside the UK, you can listen at bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts. I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner, we had the brilliant Professor Nora Behrend from the University of Cambridge. Thank you, Nora. Thank you for inviting me. It was an absolute hoot. What fun we had. And in Comedy Corner, we had the terrific Toussaint Douglas. Thanks, Toussaint. Thank you so much for having me today, Greg. My absolute pleasure. Very, very good. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we peel back the layers of another larger-than-life historical mural.

59:36But for now, I'm off to go and beg some monks to write flattering fan fiction about me after I die. Bye!

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