Emperor Nero (Radio Edit)

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1:44Hello, and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author, and broadcaster. And today we are flouncing back to the first century and fiddling while Rome burns as we learn all about Emperor Nero. And to help us tell apart our Julio Claudians from our Flavians, we have two very special guests in History Corner. She is a renowned classicist, author and broadcaster. Maybe you've read one of her best-selling books, including Pompeii, The Life of a Roman Town, Twelve Caesars, Women in Power or her most recent Emperor of Rome.

2:15You'll know her from all kinds of BBC TV programmes, including Pompeii, New Secrets Revealed, and she's the co-host of the acclaimed Instant Classics podcast. It's only Professor Mary Beard. Welcome, Mary. Well, it's great to be here and be with both of you, and even in the company of the Emprenero. We'll see about that. We'll see how we feel about him later. And in Comedy Corner, he's an Emmy and Grammy Award-winning comedian and actor. He has appeared in many of my absolute favourite sitcoms, including AP Bio, Bojack Horseman, Veep. He's starred in films including Ratatouille, Ghostbusters Frozen Empire and Secret Life of Pets 2.

2:47Or you've caught him on the celebrity edition of the American Great British Baking Show. He's a culinary master and you'll definitely remember him from our episode on the American War of Independence making a triumphant return. It's Patton Oswalt. Welcome back Patton. Thank you so much for having me back. I can't wait to talk about Nero. I've seen all the Matrix films. He's one of my favourite movie characters. Ah, OK, right. Nero. Hang on. I don't have spell check on my phone. That might explain a lot. Okay. Sorry. That's all right. Last time out, we did the American War of Independence, and you knew quite a lot.

3:20I actually did. I didn't know that I knew so much. I wasn't surprised because you were a learned man, but we're now into ancient history, ancient Roman history. How comfortable are you in the ancient Roman world? Not at all. Literally and figuratively, I'm not comfortable in that world. Okay. Do you know the name Emperor Nero? I know the name Emperor Nero, and for some reason, I just picture him looking like Dom DeLuise, but that's just because of the Mel Brooks film. So, what do you know?

3:55Well, that brings us to the first segment of the podcast. This is the So What Do You Know? It's where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, will know about today's subject. And you might know Emperor Nero as a bit of a naughty emperor. In pop culture, he's in books, he's in plays, He's been played by a lot of famous actors on screen, from Peter Ustinov in Quo Vadis, Christopher Biggins in I, Claudius, to Craig Roberts as the big baddie in the Horrible Histories kids movie that I worked on. But do Hollywood depictions get it right? What does Nero's roguish reputation tell us about Rome?

4:23And why were Romans faking their deaths at the theatre? Let's find out. Right. Professor Mary. Nero was born nearly 2 ,000 years ago. So this is a properly old story. and the first thing I have to ask is, what are our sources here? Do we have trustworthy sources? Well, there's quite a lot of sources around Nero. Where the thinner pickings are found is if you're looking for a standard ancient account of Nero A to Z. We've got some. They agree on one thing, that he wasn't a good thing, right? They are quite, we call euphemisms, they're a bit hostile. The reviews are in. The reviews are in and they are not good ones.

5:07So Nero's childhood. Let's get to the actual guy we're talking about. He's not called Nero at birth. What was he called? When was he born? What's his childhood like? Well, he's in a dysfunctional family, I think would be our way of putting it. He's born in 37 CE and his name is actually then Lucius Domitius Ahino Barbus, which means bronze beard. He had a bronze beard when he was a baby? That was what we would call his surname. I've got a bit, look, I'm called Beard and I don't have one. Nero's surname was Bronzebeard. And his dad was a pretty despicable character called Gnaeus Domitius Ahina Barbas.

5:47And there's horrible stories told about him, like how he once ran over a child deliberately in the street in his chariot. Happily, perhaps for Nero, he died when Nero was about three. Was his dad in politics or what did his dad do? All Roman men are in politics. Oh, OK, OK. Never mind. Sorry. The key to Nero's success, or one of the keys to Nero's success, though, was that his mum was about as well connected within the imperial family as you could possibly be. She was a direct descendant of the first emperor, Augustus, and her dad had been the most glamorous prince of the ruling house. So that gave Nero a good start in life.

6:31Yeah. even though dad died when he was three. That was the same year as his uncle happened to be assassinated. That was the Emperor Caligula. And new Emperor Claudius comes to the throne and before too long we find that mum... Agrippina. Agrippina, oh yes, sorry. And you've done a programme on Agrippina. We have, we've got an episode on her, so listeners can check back in. You should go back and listen to the Agrippina programme because Mum Agrippina married the Emperor Claudius. Who was her uncle? Oh, yes, yes. Oh, boy. OK. And then Claudius adopted Nero. And he got a new name, which is why we call him Nero because he's called Nero Claudius Caesar Drusus Germanicus, right?

7:24For short. For short. In the show before, we've done husbands who are brothers. We call those brusbands. but now we have uncle husbands we're thinking maybe hunkle how do you feel about uncle or husbands husbands okay so he's the sort of father-in-law stepdad to Nero he's given Nero his name he already has a son that's going to be a problem in due course there is a problem there and Nero is getting a royal education because he's now suddenly sort of in line for the throne maybe So he's getting a fancy royal education. He's got the fanciest of tutors. Have you ever heard of Seneca? I have heard of Seneca.

8:06He's a big Stoic, yes? Yeah. So Seneca is teaching Nero. So we've got a teenage boy who's learning from one of the great philosophers, but also one of the great political men of the Roman Empire. So it's a good upbringing. It's a good education. You know, it all looks great for Nero, in a way, because he's the descendant of Augustus through his mum. He's the adopted son of the reigning emperor. Looks super. The problem is that the reigning emperor's already got his own son. Yeah, Britannicus. And he's called Britannicus. Call that to celebrate Claudius' conquest of Britain. So he names his son specially.

8:42Oh. The story is that Agrippina started to engineer Britannicus being marginalised. Right? And Claudius does die. Very passive phrasing there. Does die. I was using it slightly euphemistically. Claudius dies and the allegations are that he was poisoned by mushrooms. He's at dinner and he's eating his favourite mushroom omelette or whatever it is. The idea is that the mushrooms were actually poisoned mushrooms, although Agrippina had put poison on the mushrooms. And the doctor's in on it, supposedly. That is the story. Wow. The trouble is, as an old teacher of mine always used to say, it's very hard in the Roman world to tell a nasty case of poisoning from a nasty case of peritonitis.

9:32Yeah. People die of stuff, right? People can die of ordinary things. They can die of ordinary things but everybody always wants them to die of poison. But when Claudius died was this at a moment that was opportune to move Nero into position? Of course. And also Britannicus very soon after also dies of poison. Whoa! Or, of course, might have been epilepsy. An epileptic fit. Might have been epilepsy. But people on that occasion had clear grounds for suspicion because it was said that after he'd keeled over at dinner, they had a quick burial, but the funeral pyre had already been prepared. There are too many clues in this room.

10:18Once Britannicus is out of the way, of course, Nero is now the emperor. He's the emperor of Rome, which is an incredible amount of power. How old is he when he becomes emperor? Sixteen. There you go. Oh, perfect. Great age to run an empire. I mean, your daughter's, what, sixteen? I would not want my daughter having the remote control at this point, let alone an empire. Fair enough. Oh, my God. Teenage emperors, they don't tend to do too well, which is why mum tends to run the show from backstage. Well, one story is, and it's not without some evidence, that the power behind the throne was Agrippina.

10:54We should say Nero soon gets tired of mum running the show and starts to plot her death. Yeah. He starts to plot the... So Thordius has been murdered, perhaps. Britannicus has been murdered, perhaps. Mum is now going to be murdered. Talk us through how you think he's going to... He throws a poison party where he invites everyone to sing and dance and then there's donkeys. And does he do it? Does he throw like a party or a big gala and then try to kill her then? Well, you're not so far. Does he do a murder palooza? What it shows is how easy it is to invent these stories. Oh, okay. All our three main historical sources are pretty clear that Nero tries to and eventually does kill her.

11:47Suetonius has the most possible attempts. Suetonius records that there were three attempts to poison her, but like many Romans, she took a daily dose of antidote in order to protect her body against poison. It's like a fish called Wanda. He keeps trying to kill her. It is surviving. It's like a farce, isn't it? Yeah, it is. The next attempt is even more farce. The idea is that he arranged for tiles to crash from the roof where she was sleeping. But she had been tipped off. Now, what I think is very, well, puts us all in the spot here is that these are ludicrous stories. And they are hammed up in the sources, you know, so that they're over the top and unbelievable.

12:40There is a temptation to think that this is all very funny. but this is a woman being killed by her son. This is matricide, right? And in the end, she is murdered. And in the end, he sends a hit squad. All right, let's move on then. So the interesting thing about Nero is he's not the great warrior. Julius Caesar was the great warrior. He was the man on horseback riding around. The conqueror. The conqueror. Claudius had invaded Britain and defeated Britain. So we have conqueror models. But Nero is the theatre kid. He's the show tunes guy. Gotta dance. Let's talk about what he does, right? Okay.

13:17He performs in plays. It's a great age of culture. It is a huge literary renaissance. Not quite clear what Nero's role in that is, but it certainly is. So he himself performs. It is said that perhaps wasn't as brilliant as he liked to be told it was. And there are amazing stories. It's like Florence Foster Jenkins, isn't it? It's sort of like hiring out the theatre and getting all your friends to come. Nero does go a stage further. So he locks the theatre doors so that once you've got in, so it is said. And that in order to get out, people used to fake their deaths so they could be carried out.

13:58I do that at my shows. People constantly pretend to fake. I lock the doors. Come on. The performer doesn't do that. Captain audience, I promise. Is that the expression, wow, you killed them? Is that where that comes from? Like, man, how'd you do? I killed him. I killed him. Women gave birth because they couldn't get out once they got in and the baby came. And they were forced to flatter him. It's said they were forced to say, blimey, you're brilliant, Nero. Now, there is something pretty ludicrous and pretty unpleasant about flattery. But I think it's a place where we need perhaps to stop and say, well, would we say to Prince William or President Trump or someone like that after seeing them perform I think that was a really lousy show Fair enough, in fairness to Nero supposedly he plays starring roles in the play Orestes in which the character murders his mother he plays in Oedipus in which the character has incestuous relationships and he plays Hercules and also of course he plays women roles and also there's a play called Canassi I think in Childbirth which again panaceous again incest so if he's a guy who's like trying to sort of say I didn't have incestful relations with my mum it's quite on the nose to then perform in numerous plays about incest wow hiding in plain sight maybe I dare you to call me out maybe it's where the boundary is between the gossip and the hiding in plain sight that's very hard the important thing here Patton is that Nero took it on tour do you know where he toured I mean did he tour through every land that they conquered or where would he tour He went to the most cultured place the Roman Emperor could go to, the land of culture, the land of philosophy.

15:42Greece. He did. Oh. Yeah, he took it on tour to Greece. And he went round. And what did they think? Well, he went round all the major games, the Olympic games, the Isthmian games, all the others. Wow. He changed all the events in the Olympics to things that he liked. Oh, my goodness. And he won everything. Wow, so he was a really good athlete, is what you're saying. Well. He is reported even to have won when he kind of fell out of his chariot and didn't finish the course. Yeah, so he crashes in that, but they declare him the winner. He comes home with all his garland prizes. He has a big triumph back in Rome.

16:17I'm on Nero's side here, possibly. All right. Maybe if the Romans had spent more time having triumphal processions and celebrating people who were good at arts and culture, the world might possibly have been a nicer place. You're saying shows like The Voice and British Idol are keeping us from worldwide war and conquest. You could take it. Yes. Yes. You could take it. And that's why I did the Great American Baking Show. Maybe he's trying to find another way of being an emperor and we just have not got on his wavelength. That's interesting that he's trying to create a new model of what power looks like.

16:55Yes, possibly. I mean, I think the jury's out, but we have to keep that as a possibility. But, and we're going to do this quickly because it's pretty horrible, and I'm actually going to give a trigger warning to listeners, because the content warning, because this is horrible, the violence, we're going to talk about enforced suicide, we're going to talk about domestic violence. Patton, don't make any jokes, Patton. Hang on, Patton, don't make any jokes right now. He was brutal to his lovers. He had three wives and a horrible man, right? Yeah. Nero's first wife is Claudius's natural, as it were in inverted commas, daughter, Britannicus's sister, a woman called Octavia.

17:32And it was a kind of brilliant move, in a way, for sewing up Nero's perfect right to rule. And the picture we're given of her is that she was very virtuous and that what then happens, according to the standard story, is that Nero falls madly in love with somebody else. He divorced her, sent her into exile, and then had her killed. And it is then said that her head was sent to Nero's new lover. This is about as horrible. I mean, the story is horrible, whatever the truth. I'm afraid what happens next to the new woman, a woman called Papaya, is not much better, honestly, because she's supposed to be a beauty.

18:27Nero nicked from her previous husband. She does get pregnant. He's wanting an heir. And it's when she gets pregnant that he finally divorces Octavia. Nero and Papaya have a daughter, but she soon dies. She's made a god very quickly, but she dies. Papaya gets pregnant again. And then in what is one of Rome's also horriblest bits of domestic violence, if it's true he comes back after an evening out and he hits her in the stomach while she's pregnant and she dies and then he conveniently gets remarried to a third wife, Messalina yes, Stetilia Messalina I mean it's not very nice did Messalina survive or?

19:14she survived him and she actually had more husbands than he'd had good, good, alright thank you for hearing that go. So what are you making of Nero so far? Obviously pretty monstrous in terms of his personal life. I'm torn because God I love the theatre. Have you ever heard of the Great Fire? Have you heard of Nero fiddling while Rome burns? I mean I've heard that phrase. In what context have you heard the phrase? In the context of Rome is burning to the ground and he is I've always pictured it as him just alone just amusing himself. And the Great Fire of Rome happened. Oh it did? Did happen. What do they think started it.

19:53Oh, this is a good question. What do you, okay. Who do you think? I, again, because of the phrase, he fiddled while Rome burned, doesn't it, to me, it feels like he set the fire. Oh. Almost like a gangster burning down a nightclub that he wants to get the insurance on. You, you also have been an ancient Roman historian. Because you've just got the right mindset for this. I'm so close. Yeah, you're on the money. All the time. Because one thing we know about Rome is it was a tinderbox that fires happened in the city of Rome. It was always on fire. Always on fire. Rome was always, at any point, Rome was always on fire.

20:31Really? And nevertheless, the story arose that Nero had started it. Suetonius thinks he started it in order to clear the ground so he could build himself a fantastic new palace because that's exactly what he did. Oh, OK. That's your mob boss argument, right? That's the mob boss thing, yeah. You know, the golden... It's called the Golden House. He built it. Fast palace, fantastic. Yeah, what a shame this city just went down. I guess I've got to buy a little new palace here. Hey, boss, did you just take out fire insurance? What are the odds? It's weird. All right, anyway. But another historian, Cassius Dio, he doesn't have that argument so much as saying, look, he just wanted to kind of go down in a blaze, right?

21:24He really wanted, as it were, to be like the King of Troy and see his city blaze around him and go down with his city, you know, because it was such a great way to go. Again, there are things to be said in favour of him and against. Well, OK, so in the against column... In the against column... He blamed Christians. He blamed the Christians. Oh. And he punished that there was already a relatively small sect of Christians in Rome. Roman pagan writers thought it was perfectly fine to trash the Christians. But Nero is said to have gone too far. Is this like throwing Christians to the lions? That comes a bit later.

22:06But in the Christian tradition, Nero is said to be the first persecutor of the Christians. Nero is a kind of the devil incarnate in Christian teaching and it goes back to this it goes back to him blaming them for the fire of Rome and punishing them horribly here's golf legend John Daly hell yeah these wins are piling up faster than my divorces I only spent on moto America's social casino you know I've won a couple of majors and on moto I've won majors grand and epic jackpots on their classic vega slots with huge huge bonus rounds moto casino adds new games and awards players free coins every single day.

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23:42So spend time on self-rejuvenation. Shop in-store and online for great savings on all your favorite personal care items. Now through May 26th, earn four times points when you shop participating items like Pantene shampoo, Crest toothpaste, Tampax Radiant, Native shampoo, and Secret Gel deodorant. Then redeem points for discounts on future purchases of groceries or fuel. Offer ends May 26th. Restrictions apply. Offers may vary. Visit Jewelosco.com for more details. There is a genuine conspiracy against him. There's a thing called the Pisonian conspiracy. There's this conspiracy of people hating me because I suck.

24:17It's terrible. Arguably justified, right, this conspiracy? Yeah, it comes after the fire, the year after the fire. In 65 CE, this one, yeah? And it's in 65 CE, and tens, 50-odd people are charged with being in a conspiracy to overthrow Rome. Overthrow near Rome, not Rome. Well, he is Rome. He is Rome. I am Rome. What they want to do is they want to have a new emperor. they got a guy called Piso as a potential candidate and replaced Nero. Now why it's important in the Neronian story is that Seneca the tutor was said to be implicated in it. So Nero's tutor by this stage has turned against him and he is forced to suicide because that's a standard form of Roman execution.

25:02So Seneca is implicated, 19 people are executed, 13 are banished, 51 people are charged. Nero crushes the conspiracy. But three years later, another one comes along. Because he's alienated enough people now that people are like, well, look, the first... I mean, he tried five times to murder his mum. You know, if at first he does succeed. They learn from him, you've got to keep showing up and trying. This was a military conspiracy. It was a military revolt. This is a coup, right? It's a coup. It's basically a coup. It's not a few of the kind of not terribly effective elite, like Seneca and his friends, doing it in Rome.

25:36This starts in the provinces and Nero sees the game is up. There's fighting, but in the end it's clear that people are turning away from Nero to the rebels. And what he does is he goes out to a suburban villa and he realises he has to kill himself. What do you think his last words are, Pat? Tell me his last words or what his supposed last words were. He's got more than one lot, I'm afraid. But the famous one is qualis artefacts perio. What an artist and artefacts. What an artist is dying when I die. Some proper ego there, Pat, isn't it? That's some confidence, my friend. Isn't it? Yeah. With your last gesture to say the world is about to lose a great artist here.

26:30That is ridiculous. I've got to remember that for when I die. Hang on, let me write that down. I'm going to say that when I die. All right, go ahead. So his famous last words are, what an artist in me dies, he is assisted in his death, and dies aged, how old do you think he is, Patton? In his 40s. 30. Whoa! What a life, eh? That's the end of Nero's life. He died in 68 CE. The Nuance Window!

26:58Time now for the Nuance Window. So this is where Patton and I sit quietly for two minutes while Professor Mary takes to the stage and sings for us, perhaps, I don't know. Unlike Nero, she is not locking us into the theatre. Oh, you wait. You wait and see. We're here willingly. So my stopwatch is ready, Mary. Take it away, Professor Beard. OK, I've got two mini-nuances. And the first one picks up a theme that we've been playing with, actually, quite often in our discussion, tried to pull that together. And it's what I suppose I call the T word. And it's T for truth, right? are the kind of amazing, intriguing, memorable, brilliantly evocative stories that we read about Nero, are they actually true, with a capital T?