In short
Empress Dowager Cixi’s rise from concubine to de facto ruler of Qing China, her methods of power, and the crises during her reign (Opium Wars, Taiping Rebellion, Sino-Japanese War, Boxer Rebellion), ending with her death in 1908.
Guests
Professor Yang Wen Zhong (University of Manchester; Ming/Qing trade and economic history; author including Railway Imperialism in China) and comedian/writer Sophie Duker (award-winning TV/stand-up; appeared on Taskmaster; previously on episodes about Ashanti Ghana, Benedetta Carlini, and coffee).
Key claims
Cixi was crucial to keeping the Qing state functioning after major defeats; she backed modernization (railways, factories, warships, telegraphs) while playing reformers and conservatives against each other; she maintained control through regency and later through house arrest of the Guangxu Emperor (1898–1908); she allegedly used poison (sweet cake) to remove rivals.
Notable examples
her promotions after giving birth to Zai Chun (1856); running government while the Xianfeng Emperor fell into opium and debauchery; the 1898 “100 Days Reform” context; encouraging the Boxer uprising then fleeing the Forbidden City; ensuring the Guangxu Emperor died before she did.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOExploring Empress Dowager Cixi's Historical Context
3:16 to 4:30
Understand the Qing dynasty and the significance of Empress Dowager Cixi.
“I think it's probably bad because I was educated in the UK.”
Cixi's Early Life and Family Background
4:30 to 6:12
Learn about Cixi's upbringing and family circumstances that shaped her.
“our lovely listener, might know about today's subject.”
The Path to Imperial Court
6:12 to 8:06
Discover how Cixi and other girls entered the imperial court through beauty contests.
“Yeah, so she's the last Manchu, the last of the Qing dynasty.”
Cixi's Rise in the Queen's Court
8:06 to 14:02
Examine the competition and ranks within the imperial court for concubines.
“They didn't have to work because they get handouts from the government.”
The Journey of Lady Lan: From Concubine to Power
14:02 to 19:23
Discover how Lady Lan, a 16-year-old concubine, navigates the complex hierarchy of the Qing dynasty.
“So we have a 16-year-old going to court and she is selected.”
Rising Through the Ranks: Lady Lan's Strategy
19:24 to 22:45
Learn about the strategic moves Lady Lan employs to capture the emperor's attention and rise in status.
“Now, there's also the case where if the emperor really likes you, he can go to your palace as well.”
The Impact of War: Lady Lan's Ascendancy
22:46 to 25:18
Explore how the tumult of war and political instability facilitates Lady Lan's rise to power within the court.
“One of them had broken out when she was a child.”
Becoming Empress Dowager: The Power Shift
25:19 to 28:03
Understand how Lady Lan transforms into Empress Dowager after the death of Emperor Xian Feng and the implications of her new role.
“So she now is the regent on behalf of her little boy?”
The Power Dynamics of Empress Dowagers
28:03 to 29:20
Explore how the two Empress Dowagers collaborated and navigated power dynamics in China.
“To prevent the mother's family to become too strong.”
The Emperor's Rise and Its Challenges
29:20 to 30:13
Learn about the young emperor's relationship with his mothers and his struggles to rule.
“I feel like she's evaded at least one murder plot she's done right by her family she's had a son so far you're on board we'll check back in later maybe it changes John Daly here you know what day it is?”
Show all 21 chapters
The Empress Dowager's Shifting Power
30:51 to 38:12
Understand the power shifts and manipulations of the Empress Dowager after the emperor's death.
“Sweet cherry, bold outbursts, the kind of flavor that gets attention.”
Empress Dowager's Policies and Impact
38:12 to 42:00
Examine the policies enacted by the Empress Dowager and their effects on China.
“So finally, Xu Shi is the absolute power behind the throne.”
Strategic Maneuvering in the Qing Dynasty
42:00 to 43:38
Learn about Empress Dowager Cixi's political strategies and the context of her reign.
“And she was also good at keeping, you know, by that time, the Manchus were corrupted and don't want to work because they get handouts from the government.”
Challenges and Conflicts Faced by Cixi
43:39 to 46:00
Discover the various rebellions and conflicts Cixi faced during her rule.
“In two years' time, the rebellion was dead.”
The Boxer Rebellion and Its Consequences
46:01 to 48:12
Understand the Boxer Rebellion's origins and Cixi's role in it.
“She put him under house arrest on an island.”
Cixi's Final Years and Power Plays
48:13 to 50:01
Examine Cixi's last acts in power and her efforts to secure her legacy.
“So they began to uproot railways, telegraph lines, burn churches, kill missionaries and kill the Chinese converts.”
Cixi's Complex Legacy
50:02 to 52:29
Explore the mixed perceptions of Cixi's rule and her historical significance.
“So that final stage of her career is perhaps not very successful.”
The Significance of Cixi in Chinese History
52:30 to 55:00
Learn why Cixi is a pivotal figure in Chinese history and how she shaped the nation.
“But I think she is sort of an inspiration.”
Quiz on Empress Dowager Cixi
55:01 to 56:06
Test knowledge on the life and reign of Empress Dowager Cixi.
“But if she wasn't there, the story of China might have been so radically different.”
Quickfire Quiz on Empress Dowager Cixi
56:06 to 58:56
Listen to a fun quiz assessing Sophie’s knowledge about Cixi's life and impact.
“This is our quickfire quiz for Sophie to see how much she has learned.”
Reflections and Recommendations
58:56 to 59:56
The hosts reflect on the episode and recommend more related historical content.
“And listener, if you want more brilliant biographies with Sophie Duker, check out our episodes on Benedetta Carlini, the saucy nun.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.
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1:43Hello, and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author, and broadcaster. And today, we're bouncing back to the Chinese imperial court and bowing our heads in deference as we learn all about one of the 19th century's most formidable rulers, Empress Dowager Su Shi. And to help us, we have two very special guests. In History Corner, she's Professor of Chinese History at the University of Manchester, where she specialises in Ming and Qing era trade and economic history. She's the author of numerous books, including the recent Railway Imperialism in China, a political biography.
2:18It's Professor Yang Wen Zhong. Welcome, Yang Wen. Thank you. And in Comedy Corner, she's an award-winning comedian and writer. You'll recognise her from loads of TV, including her glorious victory on Taskmaster, and maybe you've seen her recent set-out stand-up show. But, Daddy, I love her. And you'll certainly remember her from our back catalogue, including episodes on Ashanti Ghana, the naughty nun Benedetta Carlini, and the history of coffee. It's Sophie Duker. Welcome back, Sophie. Yay, thank you. Shishu? Oh, God, I didn't want to say it, because I was, like, gearing up to it like a horse up to a jumper, and I was like, you're going to brutalise the most basic word in Chinese.
2:51Shishu? Shishu, yeah. Shishu. That's pretty good. Yeah. Thank you, Yang Wen. Thank you. Sophie, your seventh appearance on the show. Oh, boy. Yeah. Wow. I mean, you don't get a medal or anything, but, you know, thanks. Yeah. I feel like it's probably numerologically auspicious. Yeah. Yeah. Lucky number seven. Lucky number seven. We've been all over the world together on the show. We've never done Chinese history with you. No. How are you with Chinese history? I think it's probably bad because I was educated in the UK. Yeah, did I? I don't know a lot about China. And what I know about China has probably been like filtered through quite a problematic lens.
3:27But I did go to China recently. I actually, I say I went to China. I went through Shenzhen Airport and it was a great experience. Great. I loved it. Does that count as going to China? It doesn't. No, Shenzhen really is not China. And does the name Empress Dowager Sushi ring any bells? I think I've seen it written down. I think it's like, I've probably also heard it, but I haven't connected it because of the spelling, which in Roman is like C-I-X-I. That's right. In English, we spell it C-I-X-I. So I think it's probably hard to connect what I've heard to the name. I feel like she's one of these historical badass women, which maybe is slightly infantilising.
4:11She feels like she's an icon. I hope we're not going to learn that she's a terrible villain now. We will see. She's a terrible bit. So, what do you know?
4:26And that brings us to the first segment of the podcast, the So What Do You Know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And Empress Dowagetsu, she is known throughout East Asia, where she's the subject of any number of films, books and TV shows. But despite her decades in power, she's much less famous in the English-speaking world than, of course, her contemporary Queen Victoria. Although Su Xi does have a brief appearance in Bernardo Bertolucci's 1987 film The Last Emperor. So who was this woman who ruled China for nearly five decades?
4:58How did she cling to power for so long and why was it never wise to accept one of her cakes? Let's find out. Professor Yang Wen, before we get into Su Xi's birth, could you please paint us a picture of China at the time? This was the Qing dynasty. And they were from Manchuria. They are Manchus. They're not Chinese. They are people who lived in between Korea and Mongolia and southern Siberia. So they roam around. They conquered China in 1644. It's amazing. 500 ,000 people came down to China to conquer this country of 120 million. They adopted themselves. They kind of what we call cynicised. They became Chinese in a way, trying as much to keep their own customs and culturals and everything.
5:53They ruled China from 1644 to 1911 until the revolution, two and a half years after the Empress Dao Zha died. So the revolution, she died in November 1908 and the revolution was in September, October 1911. So within three years of her death. So you could see how important she was. Yeah, so she's the last Manchu, the last of the Qing dynasty. Yeah, because after her, it's the little boy, the last emperor. What does cynicise mean? It's a special word in our field to denote how China indigenised foreigners. starting with people like Matteo Ricci, you know, the Jesuit missionaries who go to China and wear Chinese clothes and speak Chinese.
6:41So by conquering China, the Manchus have lost their own homeland and cultural and everything. Nobody speaks Manchu today. Right. And the centre of power would be what we now call Beijing, but was called Peking then. Peking, yes. And this other name, Beiping, as well. So there's different names. And they lived what was their palace like? What was it called? Forbidden city. Forbidden for whom? The ordinary people. Ah, us, Sophie. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you and me. They've been on the throne for four centuries at the start of our story. Yeah. And Sophie, given that she ends up ruling China for this five-decade stretch, what kind of family do you think she comes from?
7:22Oh, a powerful family. Sure. A very... In terms of what? In terms of money, power, military? What's your vibe? I'm going to say military because it feels like I think Manchu people currently are a minority in China, within China. But like it was also you said a small army that sort of conquered China. So I feel like they must have been a powerful military. Yeah, it's a good guess. Except because the Manchu warriors who conquered China in 1620, 1630 and 1640s, by the 18th, 19th century, they're gone. So their children have been sinicized. They didn't have to work because they get handouts from the government.
8:13So that's why we have the problem of opium smoking, of going to brothels. So they became decadent. So Chi's father is a government official. I mean, what was his title? What level of power would he have had? Yeah, so the children of the first, second generation warriors, because after they came down to conquer China, they also went to conquer Central Asia, Xinjiang, you know, the Uyghurs and Tibet. Yeah. So the first few generations were warriors. After that, most of the children served in the civil administration. By her father, it was basically mid-level, provincial, very low. Yeah, not very high in the echelon, in the political echelon.
9:01So he's sort of a bureaucrat. He's a bureaucrat. And I would say that explains her drive to rise up. Right. Yeah, because his family counts on her. Right. I've called her Su Shi. That's not really her name in childhood or her youth, is it? Yeah, this is her reign title. Right. OK. So what's her dad call her? What do her family call her? Well, you know, there's a lot of controversy about her. She's like a controversial character. There's lots of debates about where she was born, what was her nickname. And some people think it's Orchid Girl. OK. That's quite nice. Yeah, so because when she went to the court and taken as a concubine by the emperor, her title was Lady Lan.
9:50Lady Lan, which means orchid? Yeah, Lan, L-A-N is orchid in Chinese. And it's very common for Chinese people to name girls after flowers. Yeah, that's a lovely name, isn't it? That's nice. Her childhood, she's educated, she can read and write. Yeah. So even though her father is mid-level, but they're Manchu. Remember, Manchu are overlords. Okay. Yeah. So no matter how low you are as a Manchu, you're always higher than the Chinese. I see. Yes. I would say she had very good upbringing because she was able to read and write, which later is going to come into her. Absolutely. A lot of the concubines couldn't read and write much.
10:39So she was educated in all this arts and play, popsicord, paint. She's a very good painter. She could sing. So in a way, they were bringing her up, probably in the hope that she will marry up. Unfortunately, her father was caught taking bribes, Sophie. Hey! He was caught, his hand in the cookie jar. Yeah, okay. So he lost his job in 1851 when she was 16. They returned to Beijing and he died. He fell ill and died. Of shame? Maybe of shame. Probably just some illness. May likely, yeah. So an old family friend had to send them money for the funeral costs. So it feels like they're on hard times. They were.
11:23They were. That's why it's important to send her and her sister, both of them, to the beauty contest. Okay. Oh, OK, I was going to say, so she's 16 years old, Sophie. What were you like at 16? Did you move to the big city? Were you ready to sort of, you know, strike out? I mean, I was living on the outskirts of the big city, a place called High Barnet, which is where Oliver Twist met the Artful Dodger. Not fat, it's sorry. Yeah, I was... I was making ventures into the big city. I was drinking, like, Alka-Pops in, like, Finsbury Park. But I don't think I was setting forth to be the pride or like the hope of my family.
12:02I don't think I was entering any beauty contests. I had quite bad acne. Ditto. Yeah. Yeah. It's a tough time. It's a tough time, 16. Yeah. OK. So she what is this next stage for age 16? Does she go to Beijing and try and become a consort? Is that the route? Yeah, so what happens is every two or three years, the court will have an order, edict, saying Manchu families who have girls between 13 and 16 or 17, 12, that age, must send them to the court to be selected. It's like a beauty contest. So at local levels, oh, no, she's too ugly. Oh, yes, she goes forward. So it's a level by level elimination.
12:46Wow. So by the time you get to the imperial court... Miss Manchu. Yeah, Miss Manchu, it's a beauty contest. Yeah, OK. But the lucky ones would be reserved for the emperor. And layer by layer, prince and then servants, lady-in-waiting. OK. Wow. So three levels. Very young, though. I mean, she's 16, but you said 13, some of those girls. That's way too young. Oh, yes. There's 13. One girl became empress in age 13. Yeah, the emperor was 14. I mean, it's like, I know that the actual reality is probably quite bleak in some cases, but I feel like it's such an amazing setting for a YA novel. I bet there's so many YA's written about this.
13:26It definitely is, isn't it? Absolutely. Yeah, so you go through that. And there are families who don't want their girls to go through that. Okay. Yeah, so because you're stuck in the palace forever. In the Forbidden City, in the palace. And you can't visit your family. And if the emperor never favours you, have a child, you'll die like a virgin in the palace. All your life, you're stuck there. Even into old age, there's no sort of age cap. No, no, no. Really? Okay. You're stuck. Classic film Sophie's Choice. I'm going to turn to you, Sophie. I mean, it's not a great list of options for Lanier here.
14:02I mean, if you're hot, you're like... Sure. You're banking on that. I've never had that. Sadly, I've never traded on my hotness. So we have a 16-year-old going to court and she is selected. Yes, and so was her sister. Oh, really? Younger sister. But she was given to a prince. So she was given to the brother of the emperor. So she was pretty too. She's going for the top dog, right? She wants to be the emperor's concubine. Yeah. So what's the competition? How does it work? So when she was chosen, She actually, because there are nine ranks. Okay. Nine ranks of Empress Concubine. Yes. Okay. So there's only one Empress, but the rest are senior, senior, you know, all the sorts of titles.
14:50So she actually starts at rank six. Six. Out of nine. So she's... Nine. Yeah. It's like sets in mass. The thing is, this actually correlates to the statue of your family. Okay. So the empress at that time was also chosen that she came from an extremely powerful political family. So the empress actually is a political marriage because the Qing court needs them. Right. So if she started to rank six, I'm not sure whether they need, you know, they need her family. But her father died anyway. How many people in her rank? How many rivals does she have in rank six? Ah, there are emperors who had 50. Whoa.
15:40Yeah, this, Shen Feng didn't have that many because he was very young. He had 11 registered records. You know, the records you can look at, he had 11 registered concubines in addition to the empress. We're calling her Lady Lan, but she then gets known as Noble Lady Lan. Yeah. This is her first promotion? Yes, yeah. She goes up and up. We say in Chinese the ladder of success for women is a son. Oh, okay. So she had a son. Ah, we'll get to that. And is her promotion completely at the discretion of the emperor? Yes. Well, I was going to ask you, Sophie, if you were starting on level six of nine, how would you try and stand out amongst your competition?
16:24There's ten other girls there. Ten other girls. and I can write it six. It feels very much like a lot of TikTok format. It's like the emperor's going to pop a balloon if he doesn't like me. I think I would be like, okay, everyone here is really pretty. Maybe I've got like an additional, maybe I can soothe him. Soothe, okay. Maybe I can sing. I'm saying hypothetically I would do that. If I was to sing, it would not be soothing. But maybe I would like sort of try and show him some of what I've learned outside so that he knows that I'm intelligent and useful as well as pretty. Nice. Or, you know, just have a son.
17:04Was Sophie correct? Do we know how Lana or Lady Lana, she's known, how does she grab the emperor's attention? She was a smart girl. Okay. She observed, she studied. You're going to say she did something terrible. No, she was a politician. She knew how to cultivate people. So I think what stood her out among the Manchu girls, what made her different is because she grew up in southern China where her father served, she had this air of well brought up, well educated Chinese. Because, you know, there's this prejudice in China against the Manchus because where there are horsemen, hunters, gatherers, they're not literate, they're not educated.
17:53But Southern Chinese, like where I came from, is, you know, we're cultural. There are lots of things. She's talented, but then you need to let the emperor know that you are different from other Manchu girls. She racked her brain, basically, trying to figure out how the emperor goes to work. OK. You know. So she's learning his routine. He's learning his routine. And maybe sing or suddenly pop up along the route. And then grab, because you have to do that. OK, the moment comes that the Emperor has chosen her for a night-time activity, let's say. He wants to spend the night with her. Sophie, do you know what the choosing process involves for her?
18:30She doesn't know she's been selected until suddenly someone knocks on the door. Do you know what happens to her and that process? I think the funniest thing would be for her to be bundled into a sack. But I don't think... That is literally what happens. Is that what happens? That is very funny. Well done. They strip her naked, they bundle her into a sack and they drag her into the Emperor's quarters. After lunch, the emperor will be presented with a tray with all the girls. Okay. All your concubines. You have to choose one. But like, not literally a tray. No, they're not on the tray. A binder of women.
19:01Their name. Yeah, it's a binder of women. Their name on the tray. And if there's one girl you want to spend the night with, you turn it around. Okay. And then the eunuchs would go and she would have to go through a whole process of bathing, makeup and all that. Right. When evening comes, she's rode into a duvet and carried into the emperor's bedchamber. Now, there's also the case where if the emperor really likes you, he can go to your palace as well. Because remember the Forbidden City in the back, they're all palaces for all the concubines. Oh, wow. Yeah, so there's two ways. But the normal way is you're carried.
19:44You're bundled in the second you're taken to him. Yeah. Amazing. It's a great system. I mean, I'm hoping there are no ITV development producers listening to this. I was literally, I was going to say, this is a dating show, right? You know, he chooses the name, he turns it over, and then a girl is kidnapped and brought to his room. And presumably the other girls are gutted that they haven't been chosen. Are they sort of peering out of their door noticing? Oh, absolutely. There's gossip, conspiracy, all the everyday. Oh my God, who was there last night? I mean, there's loads of things going on. OK, so presumably Yang Wen, Lady Lan, charms the emperor because she ends up with, you know, obviously with a scenic career.
20:23So she charms the emperor. Can you remind me of his name? Sorry, what was the emperor's name? Xian Feng. Xian Feng. Xian Feng. Sorry, thank you. Xian Feng. OK. He sort of chooses her and she becomes his favourite. Is that fair? By sort of age 19 or so, she's the top of the concubines. In a way, the only difference is that she gave birth to her son. Ah, OK. On the 27th of April, 1856, gave birth to a son called Zai Chun. With the son, she can walk with her head high. You know, sometimes you have children, you have a child. It doesn't mean you get to be a noble lady. Oh, really? No, no, no. So she was kind of exceptional.
21:02Yes, she was like rocketing, you know, skyrocketing, just being promoted very high. So she knew. And then her talent helped at this point because it's mid-1850s. We have conflicts, the war coming, the Taiping Rebellion, the domestic rebels, and the British coming, Second Opinion War. The Russians were annexing land in the north. So it's a lot of trouble. The young emperor really was not fit for the job. Yeah, he's only a few years older than her, isn't he? Yeah. He's in his early 20s. Yeah. And yes, she's promoted. And every time she's promoted, she gets a new name. So she goes from Lana to Lady Lan.
21:43Then she becomes Concubine Yi. Then when she has a child, Concubine Yi, a year later, she gets elevated to the fourth rank and becomes Consort Yi. And then one year later, she becomes Noble Consort Yi. And she goes to the third. So she started at level six and she goes to level three. Which is as high as you can go. Phenomenal. Unless she can't be Empress because the Empress was already there. The Empress is like the first wife you never touch. You can't touch her. You can't touch her because it's a political marriage. Yeah. So by the age of 21, she has had the names Laner, Lady Lan, Concubine Yi, Consort Yi, Noble Consort Yi.
22:20She's had more eras than Taylor Swift. Oh, my God. She's just constantly name-changing. I think you should never stop reinventing yourself. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you are like eight different people before you turn 25. Yeah, she's just professionalised that. Yeah. So she's a mum at 21, mum to the prince. And then you mentioned these wars, this turmoil. This is a huge ongoing problem. So the opium wars, there are two. One of them had broken out when she was a child. That's the first opium war. And in 1856, the second opium war broke out. And this was at the time, there was another huge rebellion. the Christianity-inspired rebellion in China.
23:03So the Xianfeng Emperor in his 20s was battered by both domestic rebellion and foreign invasion, with the Russians encroaching in northeast China in his homeland, Nigeria. So he really couldn't handle all this. So instead of actually trying to do his job, you know what he did? He took to opium himself. Ah. He buried himself in opium smoking, in prostitutes, entertaining, in opera. He loved opera. OK. A list of three vices. Rock and roll of the day. The first two, understandable. Third one, all right. OK. Not picking up, it was rock and roll of the day. OK, fair enough. For the rich. So during this time, the emperor is struggling and he's turning to drugs, which means presumably someone needs to run the show.
23:51Yeah. And we have a young lady who's going, I'll do it. Yeah. So she began by, she goes into his office and there's stacks of documents he needs to go over and decide. You know, somebody, you know, we need£13 million, whatever, tales for the rebels. And there's a disaster here. The people are dying, right? So there are things that he needs to do to decide. But he's like, you know, he's just not up to it. And guess who's up to it? Yeah. It's not the Empress who says, I'll do it. It's level three. Level three. Yeah. Oh, my God. Consort, yeah. Consort Yi. Consort Yi. And she loved doing this. Okay, so she's learning on the job.
24:30She's learning on the job and she loves it. Yeah. And of course, they are defeated in the Second Opium War. The treaty is forced upon them in the Kowloon Peninsula and so on. So it's gone really wrong. And then it goes even worse. Sophie, do you know what happens to the emperor? He gets real sick from opium. Yeah. He gets real sick. And then he gets as sick as you can get. He gets dead. He gets dead. He gets dead from opium. As sick as that. Yeah, he died in 1861, which presumably leaves our lady consort Yi in serious trouble, you think, right? Oh, yeah, because she's not in favour anymore. No, there's no more emperor in favour.
25:05But of course, she does have a son. Oh, who is the only heir. The only heir. So is this where, young Wen, we get now another name change? Do we finally get to meet Su Ji? Yes. Hooray! Okay. Final form. Final form. Actually, no, there's more to come. So she now is the regent on behalf of her little boy? Yeah, so what happens, because the boy is the only heir, only son, so he gets to be emperor. Now, the original empress becomes Empress Dowager. Right, OK. But because she's the mother of the six-year-old boy, so she is also elevated to Empress Dowager. We've got two. We've got two, and it's not uncommon in Chinese history.
25:51Really? When the empress mother, biological mother and the real, because remember real empress, you don't touch her. She's always there. Okay. So, but then Cixi is below the empress dowager. So empress dowager number one is Xu An. Xu An, yes. And empress dowager number two is our lady Lan turned Yi turned Cixi. Yeah. Okay. Wow. Wow. It's a lot of extended family. It's a lot of extended family. And also two women who now have to join forces to run the show, but do they have the same values? Yeah. I mean, there's a lovely thing. They sleep on different parts of the palace. Can you tell us what their nickname is?
26:33Yeah. Originally, the East is bigger than the West. Okay. So the Empress and the heir to the throne always lives in the palace in the East. That's why the real Empress Dowager is called East Empress Dowager. And then Cixi is the West. It's the West Empress Dowager. I mean, Cixi Westside sounds like a 90s rapper. I'm sure she detracts with two parts. It really does. It's giving wicked. It's giving wicked. So the dying emperor had left Xu 'an with a secret instruction. So his empress, he'd left it with a secret instruction concerning the other lady. Do you know what that instruction was? Wait, so he left it for classic, his top wife.
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27:19His empress, yeah. A secret instruction. Yeah, regards to his top concubine. Oh. It's complicated. Wow. Okay. Don't let her get with anyone else. Oh, okay. Get married to anyone else. Okay, so you think it's a sort of jealousy thing. She can't remarry, no more boyfriends. Yeah, but I think that probably applies by default to both of them. It's a bit more extreme than that, Yang Wen. So before the emperor died, he actually realized this woman is... Oh, running the show? Yes. Yeah. So one of his ministers actually advised him to have her killed. Okay. You know, there is this tradition in Chinese history when the boy is going to be a parent and become future emperor, the mother is killed.
28:03Wow. To prevent the mother's family to become too strong. Too powerful, yeah. Yeah, too powerful. And there has been cases in history where the mother's family took over. So the instruction to Xu An is, if there's any doubt, kill her. You have my, you know, handwritten... Kill the Empress of the West. Yes. Kill the West Emperor. Surprisingly, Yang Wen, the opposite happens. The two women team up, right? They do. They become a kind of double act. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. Oh. The Empress's dowager. Yeah, Empress Dowagers. Dowagers, yeah, OK. Yeah. So how does that work? Who makes decisions? Or do they both have to agree on a decision?
28:43Yes, they do. Right. Yeah. So in the beginning, they worked actually like a good team because they have common interest. Because the emperor had appointed an agency of eight ministers, eight men. These eight men didn't treat these two women as an equal. Right. Of course you don't like that, right? She's like, what? I'm Empress Dowager and you're treating me like this? Yeah. And they launch a bit of a coup? Yes. Yes. So they get rid of the ministers. They get rid of the ministers. Oh, amazing. This is great. This is great. Oh, no. At the start of the episode, you said a bit of a kind of boss lady vibes.
29:22Yeah, it was badass. Yeah. Collaboration. Yeah. So far, how do you feel about her? She's obviously risen up. I feel positive about her. I feel like she's enterprising. I feel like she's evaded at least one murder plot she's done right by her family she's had a son so far you're on board we'll check back in later maybe it changes John Daly here you know what day it is? neither do I I live life daily that's why I only spend on Moto Casino Moto's got daily free bonuses daily tournaments new slots added daily and the best part guaranteed daily jackpots you can't beat that So today's the day you're gripping to spend it with me on Moto, America's Social Casino.
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31:06So the two women are running China together. This power sharing, it's fine while the emperor is a boy. Saichuan, he's small, he's six, he's little, he doesn't understand the world. Surely when he becomes 13 or 14, he's going to want to get rid of his mum and his step-mum or whatever it is. He's going to want to go solo. So because he was the only boy, he was really spoiled by both emperors, dowagers. So when he was growing up and time for him to take over, he really was not well prepared for the job. You know, he was not a good student. So he didn't, you know, if he didn't want to learn and nobody pushes him.
31:51Yeah, yeah. So he wasn't a good emperor. And then he rushes into many decisions. He gets, you know, because can you imagine 18 years old? Gee, I'm an emperor. I could do anything, right? He fires ministers without consulting his two mothers. And, of course, it doesn't work that way. And he had a much better relationship with Tzu An. That is biological mother. Than his biological mother. Oh, really? Because the biological mother is a dominating figure. She would slap him. She'd slap him? Yeah, yeah. Wow. And she would slap him with a ruler in China if you failed the exam or didn't do your homework.
32:35You stuck your hands out and the teacher or your mother can use the ruler to beat you. He's the emperor of China. Yes, I know. She's beating the ruler with a ruler. Yay, there you go. That's why we book you. One pun for us. So he had a much better relationship with the Empress Dowager Tzu-an rather than his own biological mother. And he comes of age in 1872. He's going to take the imperial name Tongzhi. Tongzhi, yes. But she stalls him. She won't hand him full power yet. Do you know what she demands of him first? He has to get married. Yes, very good. Yes. You've got good instincts here, Sophie.
33:15I don't have mothers-in-law. future mothers and lords. Yes, she demands he must get married first. And so what, they choose the girls for him? Ah, that comes to a real interesting story. OK. Because you have the beauty contest. OK, yeah. Right? And he's 18 years old. Miss Manchu, yeah. Yeah, he goes, pops around. Oh, yeah, all those nice little good-looking girls. And then he chose the one he likes. It's also the one that the Empress Cian likes. Right. OK. It's a ranking family, political marriage, but this is a pretty girl, very well educated, knew how to be empress and all that. You know, the reason Zixi wants her son to marry is because she wants to have a spy.
34:00Right. To watch him, to control him. So he didn't choose the one his own mother likes. That's the origin of all the problems to come. It's another reality TV show, I think. It is totally another show. Dabaj a date decider, I think we could call it. So things get a little bit tense, don't they? And by 1874, the emperor, he gets ill. And I think we know where this story goes because we've heard it already before. What happens to him this time? He died. He died. What was his illness? Because there was an official illness and there was a real illness. Yeah, the official was smallpox. Okay. But the real reason, because he's got spots all over the place and his body was kind of rotting, we think it's syphilis.
34:48Ah, OK. And so Su Shi, she has lost a sort of a husband of sorts. She's now lost her son. There are now no more men to control, Sophie. So how is she going to cling to power? Oh, I guess there are no boys at all. Well, she finds one. Oh, she finds one. Yeah, she digs up her nephew, right? Yeah, so for her to continue to be Empress Dowager, she needs another son. Okay. So where did she get the other son? Remember, her sister was also in the beauty contest. Yes. And the sister was married off to the brother of the emperor. Yeah. So two sisters marrying into the same family. The elder sister Tsushi marries the emperor and her younger sister marries the brother, younger brother of the emperor.
35:38So it's her own nephew from both sides. Yeah. So it's a good job. Good deal. Well done. Well done, yeah. Nephew's new emperor. Yeah. So she's on to sort of emperor number three. Outliving a lot of emperors. How old do you think he is? Oh, I think he is. Like her kid was... Six initially. Initially six. We're all six initially. I think he's maybe about 16. That's a good guess. He's three. He's three. Okay. So the new emperor is a toddler pottering around, colouring on the walls. Yeah. And so she's back in charge again, right? Yeah. So she's back in the hot seat. Yeah. And a lot of Manchul nobles were against this.
36:22Yeah. Because this is not natural. And before we go there, her daughter-in-law, remember, her son had an empress, the one she didn't like. Right. She was actually pregnant. Ah. Oh, boy. So that's the natural heir. Yeah. She should have been the empress dowager, waiting for the child to be born. If it's a girl, then there'll be other choices. Right. Because the Manchus have been in China ruling for all those years. there's family rules as to who gets to inherit. You know, she's just like, no, no rule. I'm the rule. But that pregnant... Ah, this pregnant Empress Dowager, who was about 18, 19 years old, died three months after the Tungjian Emperor died.
37:14Suspicious timing. Very suspicious timing. She was pregnant. We know that for sure. And soon after, the Empress Dowager, Shuan, also dies. Suspicious timing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know how she was rumoured to have been involved in this second one? With the Empress Dowager, her former... Her former sort of partner in crime. Partner in crime. Women own business. I feel like a poisoning. Yeah, it is a poisoning. I feel like that happens with people with flamenames. Do you know what the poison was put in? A drink? No, I mentioned at the beginning, actually, it was put in a sweet cake. A sweet cake?
37:51Sweet cake, a bake-off special, and suddenly the Dowager Empress Xu 'an is dead. People at court are suspicious, but they can't prove it. Nope. Yeah. Nothing is proved. So now we have one woman running the show. Yes. Because there's a four-year-old boy over here. Yeah. And only one Empress Dowager. That's what she wants. That's what she wants. So finally, Xu Shi is the absolute power behind the throne. She is the throne, really. Yes. Sophie obviously you're not going to commit a crime anytime soon but if you had to if you were going to have to take out a comedy rival Catherine Boha Catherine would never eat anything I served but you can keep that in how would I do it I think I'd have to do something in the green room I think if you put free chips in the green room in any green room in the country comics are going to eat it so I think it would have to be like hot fries the problem is all the comedians would die It wouldn't be just one.
38:48You would lose an entire bill of comedians. Yeah, but I mean, I don't mind taking out a night at the comedy store. And she gets a name change again. Of course. Can you guess what the name change is this time? You won't guess, but give us your best. Wow, from Orchid Girl to Sursuit to... Is it like from the natural world? Is it a symbol of something? Or is it like... Think more spiritual. Spiritual? like is she like everyone's mother nice that's a good guess yeah she's like like a world's mother yeah like the world's mother a light these are good guesses i yang when i'm going to come to you what what's the official nickname that she quite likes she's called old buddha old buddha old buddha yeah wow so she's she's old buddha now she is is old buddha what nickname would you like to go by Oh, thank you so much for asking.
39:42As a nickname in Shwee, which is an Akan dialect, I would like to be called Sexy Abrawa, which kind of means sexy old woman. Nice. Because I think it's a nickname you can really grow into. It means like grandmother old woman. So it's kind of like, yeah, tasty grandma. Nice. And that's what I would like to be called. Would I be allowed to call you that? That feels like that's not a name I can use for you. Tasty grandma? Well, I don't know. Hey. Saucy Nana? Saucy Nana. Yeah, fine. I'll call you saucy nana. Thank you so much. Also kind of sounds gone in. How do you imagine her as a ruler? We've talked about her as sort of climbing the ladder in terms of court politics.
40:19What do you imagine she's like in terms of China? I imagine she's not fun. I love that. I don't think she's, I think because I think she's like had a lot of time tolerating these wastrel or literal baby kings who are like lying around shitting themselves, crawling around, not doing their work. So I feel like she's maybe a bit more austere. She's a bit more tight with the purse strings, a bit more punitive. Sure. Is that correct? So you think kind of harsh but effective. Is that your vibe? Yeah. Okay. Yang Wen, what is, in terms of her public policy, in terms of what she does for the people of China, what can we ascribe to her?
40:59In a way, she was a good ruler because after the second open war, China basically avoided conflict with the West for 20 or 30 years. Yeah. And she launched reform. She sanctioned a lot of reform projects. China was learning from the West, catching up, modernizing, industrializing. She sanctioned all those projects. Yeah. She brought warships and weapons. Yes, railways and all that stuff. So telegraph lines and modern factories. Yeah, I mean, you've written a book on the history of the railways in China. That's her policy. Yeah. So there is one thing that she, on the one hand, it's kind of, she's like a man, like a politician, real ruler.
41:45On the other hand, she indulges herself. You know, she builds gardens and she wants Western luxuries and all that. So on that aspect, you know, she's more like a real concubine or empress, dowager. And she was also good at keeping, you know, by that time, the Manchus were corrupted and don't want to work because they get handouts from the government. So by that time, it's Chinese officials who are running the empire. So you've got Manchu officials, you've got Chinese, you've got Mongols, and you've got foreigners coming in, advisors. Yeah, the French are there. Yeah, the British were there running the customs and all that.
42:25So what she was good at is she played them against each other. Right. So keeping herself at the top. She played the reformers against conservatives. She played reformers against reformers, Chinese against foreigners, British against the French. You know, she's very good at playing. Yeah, puppeteer. Yeah. So everybody needs her. Right. You mentioned briefly the Taiping Rebellion. Yeah. That is a Christian uprising, which is interesting, I suppose, because missionaries have been in China for a while. So the Christianity has been growing in China. Yes. And this is a Chinese scholar who thought he was God's Chinese son.
43:05Wow. He was brother to Jesus. That's nice. He led a rebellion that lasted almost 20 years, led to millions of deaths and almost toppled the Qing dynasty. Yeah, it's a huge, it's a massive rebellion, isn't it? It's not a small little thing. It's almost a civil war. She put it down. Yeah. She put it down in 1864. You know, the rebellion began in 1850 when her husband came to the throne. Right. For 10 years, he couldn't do anything about it. And she came to reign from behind the curtain in 1862. In two years' time, the rebellion was dead. And she did fight with France. Yes, there's a French war in 1883, 185.
43:47and then 1890s, China really was not doing well. And that's when Japan is the main adversary. So the Sino-Japanese wars. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, it's a long list of enemies that she has to face. Christine's within her own country, the British, the French, the Japanese. And the Chinese against Manchus matches. It's very messy. Because Japan has invaded Korea by this point, so Japan's becoming more powerful as well. Yeah. And China was defeated, the Navy was defeated as well. Yes, in 1895. Yeah, so it's not going well. And then, of course, her nephew slash son grows up and he becomes Emperor Guangzhou.
44:24Yes, and the same story with choosing emperors. I was going to say. Punky Bird repeats again. Right, so she's like, you can't be emperor until you're married and I'm going to choose your wife. Yes. Is that right? Yes. Wow. A tale as old as time, Sophie. It's terrible. Does she pick the one that she likes? She picked the one she likes. Okay. You're marrying this girl and there's nothing more to it. And it's cousins, two cousins. So she married her sister's son to her brother's daughter. That's quite confusing. I saw the family tree in my head just became very gnarled, lots of branches. Yeah, because she wants to keep the power within her family.
45:02Yeah. There's all these external pressures on her, these wars, China fighting Japan, France and so on. And she's trying to bring in these reforms in the army and in society. But there is a coup against her, Sophie. And do you know what happens in this coup? Do you know who leads the coup, perhaps? Coup, I'd say probably led by another concubine. Oh, nice. Yeah. A rival sushi who's climbed a ladder. A concubine or concubine, yeah. Someone in the nine levels. Yeah. It's a good guess. Yangon, it's not a concubine. Nope. Do you want to tell us who it is? It's the emperor. It's her nephew. Oh, her nephew.
45:39It's amazing that we've called it a coup because he is the emperor. He's like, hold on a minute. Yeah, yeah. It's not a koolist, it's my own throne. But yeah, he tries to get rid of her. Yes. And she does some political judo. Yes. And she gets rid of him. Yeah, well, she put him under house arrest for the next... This is the audacity, I love it. Yeah, this makes a fantastic film. She put him under house arrest on an island. Okay, island arrest. Yeah. Yeah, from September 1898 to November 1908 when he died. So 10 years. 10 years. So is he sort of secretly, like, does the rest of the country know that their emperor is stuck in a shed somewhere?
46:24No. Really? Because all the edicts were still issued in the name of the emperor. The Guangzhou emperor. Yeah. Okay. So there we go. So if you come for the, well, I was going to say come for the king. If you come for the Empress Dowager, you better not miss, Sophie. Better not miss. Wow. So her own nephew in house arrest. Her own nephew on an island. Possibly poisoned her sort of business partner. Yeah. Possibly poisoned a pregnant woman. Pregnant woman. Yeah. She's clinging to power. But everything's running quite well. Sort of. I was going to say, in 1900, we get another big military crisis. This one's called the Boxer Rebellion.
46:58Do you know why it's called the Boxer Rebellion? Have you heard of that before? I hoped it was dog related. I like that. I'm feeling from context clues that it's not. The Boxer Rebellion. Is it about actual boxers? It's about kung fu, really, isn't it? It's about martial arts. Is that fair? It's a British name for the people they believe they're fighting have martial arts skills. Is that fair? Yes. So the British are like, the people we're fighting, they don't use guns, they use hands. Martial arts practitioners. Practitioners, yeah. So it's a sort of rebellion of traditional martial arts practitioners is who is their great enemy?
47:37Is it the foreigners? So what happened is after the Sano-Japanese War and Japan defeated China and all the foreigners came back to China wanting more, the Germans began to colonise Sandong region. And the Sandong region is famous for people who practised martial arts. And there's a special brand, it's called Harmonious Fists. They fight you with the fist. I feel like that's an oxymoron. Harmonious fists. Harmonious fists. And the Westerners called them boxers. So in a way, it's funny because when the Western powers imposed unwanted treaties on the Chinese government, and the Chinese government actually accepted it, but the people in Shandong says, no, we don't have to accept anything.
48:28So they began to uproot railways, telegraph lines, burn churches, kill missionaries and kill the Chinese converts. And Cixi at this minute was like, wow, that's great. Let them kill all the foreigners. Oh, really? Yes. So she encouraged them. Right. And some of the princes actually funded them. Right. That's why they went to Beijing. But she is forced to flee the Forbidden City. Yeah. So it goes wrong for her. Yeah. So what happens is the boxers grew humongously because of royal support. Yeah. So they went to Beijing. They besieged the foreign embassy area. You know, all the Britain, France, everybody.
49:07And of course, they call for help. And the navies come, you know, came to China to suppress the boxers. And then, of course, then she realized, oh, my God, foreigners are coming. Yeah. They're so powerful. I better run. So she actually could be the real culprit in this whole thing. Because if she didn't encourage them, they wouldn't have come to Beijing. So the suppression wouldn't have happened. Do you see what I mean? Yeah, so it backfires on her. Yeah. But then she escapes in August, the night before the British marched into the city, and she was disguised as a peasant woman. She doesn't want anybody to do that.
49:48No one's believing that. Come on. So, I mean, you said at the beginning, and we'll say it again, she died in 1908. So she managed to cling to power for seven more years after this huge uprising, this huge rebellion. But obviously she was compromised by the foreign powers coming in. Yeah. So that final stage of her career is perhaps not very successful. But Sophie, do you know what her final act was? Literally within days before her death, what's the last thing she did? In her final days, she knew she was going to die. She's at the end of her life. She picked her air? I mean, that's certainly part of it, isn't it?
50:23She decided she'd like, I'll try opium. She smoked opium all her life? Yeah, she did, yeah. But she knew how to moderate it. She dabbled in it, didn't she? She can handle it. No, she, well, do you remember the emperor who's still in house arrest? Oh, yeah, on the island. She got rid of him. Oh, no! One day before she died. 16 hours before. 16 hours before she died. She made sure he wasn't going to come back to power. Wow. She's a real bitter lady. Not bitter. I mean, she's like, you don't have to get bitter if you take care of business before you go. Yeah, she just lined up all the dominoes. Yeah, she was dying and she said to people around her that he must die before I die.
51:09Yeah. And her nephew, her old nephew. Her adopted son. Her adopted son. Her adopted son, but her nephew also. Sure. Is her sister still alive? I don't know. No, her sister died. Poisoned? Possible. Okay. Okay, so she bumped off the emperor. So who was the next? The next person to take over is the last emperor, the famous last emperor. Yeah, the last emperor. And he's another three-year-old boy. Yes. So when you see boy emperors in Chinese history, something fishy is going on. Right, okay. That three-year-old is the son of the nephew that she murders. And of course he abdicates in 1911 and that is the end of Imperial Story.
51:50So quite the life Sophie. How do you feel about Sushi now? Sushi, I feel resoundingly positive. I feel real good about her. Because I feel like she entered her villain era and I'm not sure she left it. Yeah, she didn't really depart from the villain era but I mean like she played the game. I think she was an incredible player of the game. Also a little bit of poison. A little bit of poison is not the worst thing in the world. And I think I really respect how she refused to let adult men be in charge. Hey, I don't love that she murdered a pregnant woman. Sure. And you can quote me on that. I can't stay mad at her.
52:28I know she did some bad things. Okay. But I think she is sort of an inspiration. The nuance window!
52:40That brings us to our nuance window. This is where Sophie and I sit quietly and brainstorm new noble names for ourselves for two minutes. We need, I think, eight new names each, probably. While Professor Yang Wen holds court and tells us something that we need to know about Empress Dowager Su Shi. And my stopwatch is ready. You have two minutes. Take it away, Professor Zhong. She has been wronged in some ways by historians for generations because she's a woman. And because of allegedly the things she did, if you look in the long run, if she wasn't there, China might have disappeared in 1862. So you can say that she helped pop up the Qing Dynasty for another four or five decades after the Second Opian War.
53:33That's number one. Number two, the reform she stepped in to stop, 100 days reform. If you look from today's perspective, it might be too early. China might not have been ready for it as a country, because if China was not ready, it will cause chaos because the political reforms that the Guangxi emperor wanted. She also has one saving grace. As historians have managed to mine further into the archives, we realized that the Guangxu Emperor, who wanted all those radical reform, her nephew, Emperor, actually was in secret communication with the Japanese. He met with the full-time Japanese Prime Minister.
54:24There was recommendation from ranking Chinese intellectuals that Japan should steer China in 1898. That is something she could not accept. And that is something that today's Chinese would never accept. Yes. So that may redeem her. Amazing. Thank you so much. I mean, really interesting. Oh, my God. I'm like, put him on an island. I mean, it's a really interesting point, the what if. I don't usually like what ifs with history because history is chaos and we have to imagine it. But if she wasn't there, the story of China might have been so radically different. China needed a strong character. Yeah, and she certainly was strong.
55:09Who kept things together. I can see why you're on her side. I'm not sure I agree with her, the way she went about things. Any final thoughts, Sophie, before we do the quiz? I fully support I would. if she has you know 100 fans i am one of them if she has 10 fans i'm one of them wow i've been poisoned by a bad cake um i think it was honestly not chaotic but so like such a full life and so many people to sort of like manage and maneuver and i feel that she at the end managed to like leave not kind of disgraced with sort of her legacy intact i mean not morally but in terms of She didn't die in indignity or anything like that.
55:53And so I think that's pretty impressive. I mean, dying in your deathbed still in power is hard as an emperor, isn't it? So what do you know now?
56:05Well, it's time now for the So What Do You Know Now. This is our quickfire quiz for Sophie to see how much she has learned. Sophie, ordinarily you're very good at these quizzes, but I think today has been quite sort of tricky with lots of emperors and nephews and sons. Oh, yes. Yeah, the family tree is overgrown. OK, I've got ten questions for you. Let's see how you do. OK, good luck. Question one. What was Sir Shi's childhood nickname or name, perhaps? Her childhood name was Lan. Yeah, Lan, which meant? Orchid girl. Orchid girl. Very good. Superhero. Question two. By which process did the emperor choose which concubine he wanted to spend the night with?
56:42Oh, he had a metaphorical binder of women, all their names on a tray, and he would turn it round if he wanted to see them. That's right. And they would be kidnapped and delivered to him. How romantic. Question three. Which lowly rank of consort did Su Shi begin in? She was at level six. She did. It's embarrassing. She climbed. Question four. With whom did Su Shi stage a coup after Emperor Zhong Feng's death? With her fellow Empress Dowager, Sir Anne. Very good. Question five. What other names were the two Empress Dowagers known by, geographically speaking? Sir Shi and Sir Anne, they were known as?
57:18Sir Shi and Sir Anne were known by East and West. They were? Anne was East, she was West. Very good. She was wicked. Question six. What did Sir Shi insist her son, the Emperor Tangier, do before she let him assume power? He's got to get wifey. He's got to get married. And she wanted to choose one of the four ladies. Question seven. You're doing very well, Sophie. Thank you. Absolutely nailing this. Question seven. How did Su Shi stay in power after her son's death? She stayed in power after her son's death by keeping it in the family and getting her sister's son to become emperor. That's it. Three-year-old nephew, install him as emperor.
57:53Classic. Question eight. How did Su Shi's former power partner, Empress Dowager Xi, and allegedly die? It was pastry week. Yes. A few too many bitter almonds in that cake, I think. Question nine. Name one seismic war or event that Suu Kyi lived through. Oh, OK. So there were so many. There was the... I'm going to pronounce them all wrong. There was the burning of the Summer Palace. Yeah, absolutely. There was the Taiping Rebellion. There was the Boxer Rebellion. This is amazing. With the harmonious fists. Yeah, I'm giving you a bonus point because that was amazing. That was fantastic. And this for a perfect 11 out of 10.
58:30Oh, God. What was surprising about the timing of Suu Kyi's death, considering the Emperor's death? It was surprising that only 16 hours before he was condemned to death on his island. Yeah, absolutely. Sophie Duker, 11 out of 10. Oh, thank God. Oh, everything's been riding on this for me. Thank you, Yang Wen. Thank you so much, Yang Wen. An amazing lesson. I think we all learned so much there. Well done, Sophie. Fantastic memory recall. And listener, if you want more brilliant biographies with Sophie Duker, check out our episodes on Benedetta Carlini, the saucy nun. Ramesses the Great, another sort of big, powerful name, and of course the Chevalier de Saint-Georges, the great composer.
59:08And for more Chinese history, why not listen to our episodes on the history of Kung Fu, the Tong Dynasty, and the Terracotta Warriors, of course. All very interesting. If you enjoy the podcast, please share the show with your friends. Subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sounds to hear new episodes 28 days earlier than anywhere else. And if you're outside the UK, you can listen at bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts. I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner, we have the incredible Professor Yang Wen Jung from the University of Manchester. Thank you, Yang Wen.
59:36Thank you for having me. It's been an absolute pleasure. And in Comedy Corner, we have the superstar Sophie Duker. Thank you, Sophie. Thank you so much. 11 out of 10. Thank you. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we raise another overlooked historical subject up through the ranks. But for now, I'm off to go and have a lie down. My producers fed me a weird tasting cake before the recording and I feel a bit woozy. Bye. Bye.
1:00:03You're Dead to Me is a BBC Studios production for BBC Radio 4. This episode was researched by Emma Mitchell. It was written by Emma Mitchell, Dr. Emmy Rose Price-Goodfellow, Dr. Emma Naguse and me. The audio producer was Steve Hanke and our production coordinator was Jill Huggett. It was produced by Dr. Emmy Rose Price-Goodfellow, me and senior producer Dr. Emma Naguse and our executive editor is Philip Sellers.
1:00:32Hello, Alex von Tunzelman here with a brand new series of history's heroes. People with purpose, brave ideas and the courage to stand alone. Including the little known story of a famous author caught up in a horrific accident, which would require all his courage. Dickens remained in the river, helping the rescue, assisting the wounded. He didn't search out to be heroic. He didn't play on his heroism.
1:01:26cubic foot garden soil. Five bags for$10. Our best line-up is here at Lowe's. Valor through 4A. Wall supplies last. Selection varies by location. Soil offer excludes Alaska and Hawaii. Dive into the bonkers world of David Mitchell and Robert Webb and listen to their BBC comedy show. From nonsensical maths quiz Numberwang to finding out what James Bond is really like as a party guest. There's something for everyone. Hello, M-O-T-T-A-T. Yes, that's right. This is the Ministry of Things that are apparently true. Yes, we do exist. The rumours are true, ironically.
From the publisher
Greg Jenner is joined in nineteenth-century China by historian Professor Yangwen Zheng and comedian Sophie Duker to learn about the Qing dynasty ruler Empress Dowager Cixi. A contemporary of Queen Victoria, Cixi rose from low-ranked concubine to de facto ruler of China for nearly half a century, and lived through a dizzying array of events in China’s nineteenth-century history, including the Taiping Rebellion, the Opium Wars, and the Boxer Rebellion. Ruling through her son and then her nephew, Empress Dowager Cixi dominated late Qing dynasty China, and oversaw a variety of economic and military – if not political – reforms. This episode charts her life, from her entry into the Forbidden Palace as a teenager all the way to her death in 1908, taking in the politics and traditions of the Qing imperial court, her relationship with Emperor Xianfeng and her rival turned co-ruler Empress Dowager Ci'an, and her determined attempts to gain and maintain power.
If you’re a fan of Chinese history, ruthless court politics, and complex women characters, you’ll love our episode on Empress Dowager Cixi.
If you want to learn more about the history of China, listen to our episodes on the history of Kung Fu and the Terracotta Warriors. And for more fascinating characters with Sophie Duker, check out our episode on Ramesses the Great, naughty nun Benedetta Carlini and the Chevalier de Saint-Georges.
You’re Dead To Me is the comedy podcast that takes history seriously. Every episode, Greg Jenner brings together the best names in history and comedy to learn and laugh about the past.
Hosted by: Greg Jenner Research by: Emma Mitchell Written by: Emma Mitchell, Dr Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow, Dr Emma Nagouse, and Greg Jenner Produced by: Dr Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow and Greg Jenner Audio Producer: Steve Hankey Production Coordinator: Gill Huggett Senior Producer: Dr Emma Nagouse Executive Editor: Philip Sellars
