Empress Dowager Cixi (Radio Edit)

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. The ultimate cookout starts with the ultimate ingredients. At Whole Foods Market, no antibiotics ever, burgers and kebabs are prepped and ready to throw on the grill. Fire up a juicy ribeye, grab creamy potato salad and savoury flatbreads from the prepared foods department and round it all out with 365 brand condiments, chips and dips at everyday low prices. Whole Foods Market. Make your summer sizzle. When you hear the phrase made in China, what do you think? I'm Tristan Redman. And I'm Asma Khalid. And together we host the Global Story podcast from the BBC.

0:42And today on our show, we look at the origins and evolution of made in China because it actually wasn't inevitable. What we're talking about is the world's largest communist nation is at the beating heart of the capitalist system. For more, listen to The Global Story on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:27very special guests. In History Corner, she's Professor of Chinese History at the University of Manchester, where she specialises in Ming and Qing era trade and economic history. She's the author of numerous books, including the recent Railway Imperialism in China, a political biography. It's Professor Yang Wen-Jung. Welcome, Yang Wen. Thank you. And in Comedy Corner, she's an award-winning comedian and writer. You'll recognise her from loads of TV, including her glorious victory on Taskmaster, and maybe you've seen her recent set-out stand-up show. But Daddy, I love her. And you'll certainly remember her from our back catalogue, including episodes on Ashanti Ghana, the naughty nun Benedetta Carlini and the history of coffee.

2:02It's Sophie Duker. Welcome back, Sophie. Yay, thank you. Shishu? Oh, God, I didn't want to say it because I was like gearing up to it, like a horse up to a jumper. And I was like, you're going to brutalise the most basic word in Chinese. Shishu? Shishu, yeah. Shishu. That's pretty good. Yeah. Thank you, Yang Wen. Thank you. We've been all over the world together on the show. We've never done Chinese history with you. No. How are you with Chinese history? I think it's probably bad because I was educated in the UK. I don't know a lot about China. And what I know about China has probably been like filtered through quite a problematic lens.

2:36But I did go to China recently. I actually, I say I went to China. I went through Shenzhen Airport and it was a great experience. Great. I loved it. Does that count as going to China? It doesn't. No, Shenzhen really is not China. And does the name Empress Dowager Sushi ring any bells? I think I've seen it written down. I think it's like, I've probably also heard it, but I haven't connected it because of the spelling, which in Roman alphabet is like C-I-X-I. That's right. In English, we spell it C-I-X-I. So I think it's probably hard to connect what I've heard to the name. I feel like she's one of these historical badass women, which maybe is slightly infantilising.

3:20She feels like she's an icon. I hope we're not going to learn that she's like a terrible villain now. We will see. She's a terrible villain. So, what do you know?

3:35And that brings us to the first segment of the podcast, the So What Do You Know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And Empress Dowaget-su, she is known throughout East Asia, where she's the subject of any number of films, books and TV shows. But despite her decades in power, she's much less famous in the English-speaking world than, of course, her contemporary Queen Victoria. Although Su Shi does have a brief appearance in Bernardo Bertolucci's 1987 film The Last Emperor. So who was this woman who ruled China for nearly five decades?

4:07How did she cling to power for so long? And why was it never wise to accept one of her cakes? Let's find out. Professor Yang Wen, before we get into Su Shi's birth, Could you please paint us a picture of China at the time? This was the Qing dynasty and they were from Manchuria. They are Manchus. They conquered China in 1644. It's amazing, 500 ,000 people came down to China to conquer this country of 120 million. They ruled China from 1644 to 1911 until the revolution. And the centre of power would be what we now call Beijing, but was called Peking then. Peking, yes. And this other name, Beiping as well.

4:52So there's different names. And they lived, what was their palace like? What was it called? Forbidden City. Forbidden for whom? The ordinary people. Ah, us, Sophie. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You and me. They've been on the throne for four centuries, the start of our story. And Sophie, given that Su Xi ends up ruling China for this five-decade stretch, what kind of family do you think she comes from? Oh, a powerful family? Su Xi's father is a government official. I mean, what level of power would he have had? Yeah, so her father, it was basically mid-level, provincial, very low, not very high in the echelon.

5:33I've called her Su Shi. That's not really her name in childhood or her youth, is it? Yeah, this is her reign title. Okay, what do her family call her? She's like a controversial character. There's lots of debates about where she was born, what was her nickname, and some people think it's Orchid Girl. Okay. Or Lanner. That's quite nice. Yeah. Her childhood, she's educated, she can read and write. Yeah, even though her father is mid-level, but they're Manchu. Remember, Manchu are overlords. Okay. Yeah, so no matter how low you are as a Manchu, you're always higher than the Chinese. I see. Yes, I would say she had very good upbringing because she was able to read and write.

6:18She's a very good painter. Wow. And she could sing. In a way, they were bringing her up, probably in the hope that she will marry up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Unfortunately, her father was caught taking bribes, Sophie. Hey. He was caught, his hand in the cookie jar. He lost his job in 1851 when she was 16. They returned to Beijing and he died. He fell ill and died. Of shame? Maybe of shame. Probably just some illness. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What is this next stage for, age 16? Does she go to Beijing and try and become a consort? Is that the route? Yeah, so what happens is every two or three years, the court will have an order, idiot, saying Manchu families who have girls between 13 and 16 or 17, 12, that age, must send them to the court to be selected.

7:12It's like a beauty contest. So it's a level by level elimination. So by the time you get to the imperial court... Miss Manchu. Yeah, Miss Manchu, it's a beauty contest. I mean, if you're hot, you're like... Sure. You're banking on that. I've never had that. Sadly, I've never traded on my hotness. So we have a 16-year-old going to court and she is selected. Yes, so was her sister. Oh, really? Younger sister. But she was given to a prince. So she was given to the brother of the emperor. So she, when she was chosen, she actually, because there are nine ranks. Okay. Nine ranks of Emperor's concubine.

7:54Yes. Okay. So there's only one Empress, but the rest is senior, you know, all the sorts of titles. So she actually starts at rank six. Six. Out of nine. So she's... Nine. Yeah. It's like sets in maths. I was going to ask you, Sophie, I mean, you know, if you were starting on level six of nine... Yeah, yeah, yeah. How would you try and stand out amongst your competition? There's, you know, there's 10 other girls there. 10 other girls. And I've been ranked at six. This feels very much like a lot of TikTok format. It's like the emperor's going to pop a balloon if he doesn't like me. I think I would be like, okay, everyone here is really pretty.

8:34Maybe I've got like an additional, maybe I can soothe him. Soothe, okay. Maybe I can sing. I'm saying hypothetically I would do that. If I was to sing, it would not be soothing. maybe I would like sort of try and show him some of what I've learned outside so that he knows that I'm intelligent and useful as well as pretty. Nice. Or, you know, just have a son. So presumably, Yang Wen, Lady Lan charms the emperor because she ends up with, you know, obviously with a scenic career. So he sort of chooses her and she becomes his favourite by sort of age 19 or so. She's the top of the concubines. In a way.

9:11The only difference is that she gave birth to a son. Ah, OK. On the 27th of April, 1856, gave birth to a son called Zai Chun. With the son, she can walk with her head high. She's promoted and every time she's promoted, she gets a new name. Oh. So she goes from Lan A to Lady Lan, then she becomes Concubine Yi. Yeah. Then when she has a child, Concubine Yi, a year later, she gets elevated to the fourth rank, becomes Consort Yi. Yeah. OK. And then one year later, she becomes noble consort here. And she goes to the third. So she started at level six and she goes to level three. Which is as high as you can go.

9:49Phenomenal. She can't be empress because the empress was already there. The empress is like the first wife you never touch. You can't touch her. You can't touch her because it's a political marriage. Is her promotion completely at the discretion of the emperor? Yes. Her talent helped at this point because it's mid-1850s. We have conflicts, war coming, the Taiping Rebellion, the domestic rebels, and the British coming, Second European War. The Russians were annexing land in the north. So it's a lot of trouble. The young emperor really was not fit for the job. Yeah, he's only a few years old in there, isn't he?

10:31Yeah. He's only 20s. Yeah. So during this time, the emperor is struggling and he's turning to drugs, which means presumably someone needs to run the show. Yeah. And we have a young lady who going, I'll do it. Yeah. So she began by she goes into his office and there's a stacks of documents. He needs to go over and decide, you know, somebody we need 30 million pounds, whatever tails and for the rebels. And there's a disaster here. The people are dying. Right. So there are things that he needs to do to decide, but he's like, you know, he's just not up to it. And guess who's up to it? Yeah. It's not the Empress who says, I'll do it.

11:08It's level three. Level three. Yeah. Oh, my God. Consort. Yeah. Consort Yee. Consort Yee. And she loved doing this. And, of course, they are defeated in the Second Opium War. The treaty is forced upon them in the Kowloon Peninsula and so on. So it's gone really wrong. And then it goes even worse. Sophie, do you know what happens to the Emperor? He gets real sick from opium. Yeah. He gets real sick. And then he gets as sick as you can get. He gets dead. He gets dead. He gets dead from opium. As sick as that. Yeah, he died in 1861. Oh, no. Which presumably leaves our lady consort Yi in serious trouble, you think, right?

11:43Oh, yeah, because she's not in favour at all. No, there's no more emperor in favour. But of course, she does have a son. Oh, who is the only heir. The only heir. So is this where, Yang Wen, we get now another name change? We finally get to meet Su Shi? Yes. Hooray! Final form. Final form. Actually, no, there's more to come. So she now is the regent on behalf of her little boy? Yeah, so what happens, because the boy is the only heir, only son, so he gets to be emperor. Now, the original empress becomes Empress Dowager. Right, OK. But because she's the mother of the six-year-old boy, so she is also elevated to Empress Dowager.

12:29Sushi is below the Empress Dowager. So Empress Dowager number one is Shuan. Shuan, yes. And Empress Dowager number two is our Lady Lan, Chen Yi turned Sushi. Okay. Wow. Wow, it's a lot of extended family. It's a lot of extended family. And also two women who now have to join forces to run the show, but do they have the same values? Values, yeah. Yeah. So surprisingly, Yang Wen, the two women team up, right? They did. They become a kind of double act. Love that. Yeah. So how does that work? Who makes decisions? Or do they both have to agree on a decision? Yes, they do. Right. Yeah. So in the beginning, they worked actually like a good team because they have common interest, because the emperor had appointed an agency of eight ministers.

13:20eight men. These eight men didn't treat these two women as an equal. Of course you don't like that, right? It's like, what? I'm Empress Dowager and you're treating me like this? And they launched a bit of a coup? Yes, yes. So they get rid of the ministers. They get rid of the ministers. This is great. At the start of the episode you said a bit of a kind of boss lady vibes. Yeah, it was badass, yeah. Collaboration. So far, how do you feel about her? she's obviously risen up I feel positive about her I feel like she's enterprising I feel like she's done right by her family she's had a son I'm on board Okay we'll check back in later because maybe it changes This power sharing it's fine while the emperor is a boy Sajuan he's small he's six he's little he doesn't understand the world surely when he becomes 13 or 14 he's going to want to get rid of his mum and his step mum or whatever it is He's going to want to go solo.

14:19So he wasn't a good emperor. And then he rushes into many decisions. He gets, you know, because can you imagine 18 years old? Gee, I'm an emperor. I could do anything, right? He fires ministers without consulting his two mothers. And of course, it doesn't work that way. And he had a much better relationship with Tzu An. That is biological mother. than his biological mother. Oh, really? Because the biological mother is a dominating figure. OK. She would slap him. She'd slap him? Yeah, yeah. Wow. And she would slap him with the ruler in China if you failed the exam or didn't do your homework. You stuck your hands out and the teacher or your mother can use the ruler to beat you.

15:07He's the emperor of China. Yes, I know. She's beating the ruler with a ruler. Yay, there you go. She stalls him. She won't hand him full power yet. Do you know what she demands of him first? He has to get married. Yes, very good. Yes. You've got good instincts here, Sophie. I don't have mothers-in-law. Future mothers-in-law. Yes, she demands you must get married first. And so what? They choose the girls for him? Ah, that comes with a real interesting story. OK. Because you have the beauty contest. OK, yeah. Right? And he's 18 years old. Miss Manchu, yeah. Yeah, he go, pops around. Oh, yeah, all those nice, good-looking girls.

15:45And then he chose the one he likes. It's also the one that the Empress C 'an likes. Right. Okay. It's a ranking family, political marriage, but this is a pretty girl, very well educated, knew how to be empress and all that. By 1874, the emperor, he gets ill. And I think we know where this story goes because we've heard it already before. Oh, no. What happens to him this time? He died. He died. Yeah. What was his illness? Because there was an official illness and there was a real illness. Yeah, the official was smallpox. OK. But because he's got spots all over the place and his body was kind of rotting, we think it's syphilis.

16:28Ah, OK. And so Su Shi, she has lost a sort of a husband of sorts. She's now lost her son. There are now no more men to control, Sophie. So how is she going to cling to power? Oh, I guess there are no boys at all. Well, she finds one. Oh, she finds one. Yeah, she digs up her nephew, right? Yeah, so for her to continue to be Empress Dowager, she needs another son. Okay. So where did she get the other son? Remember her sister was also in the beauty contest. Yes. And the sister was married off to the brother of the emperor. So it's her own nephew from both sides. Yeah. The ultimate cookout starts with the ultimate ingredients.

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18:39So she's on to sort of Emperor number three. So she's back in charge again, right? Yeah. So she's back in the hot seat. Yeah, and a lot of Manchul nobles were against this because this is not natural. And before we go there, her daughter-in-law, remember her son had an empress, the one she didn't like. Right. She was actually pregnant. But that pregnant... Ah, this pregnant Empress Dowager, Empress, who was about 18, 19 years old, died three months after the Tongzhi Emperor died. Suspicious timing. Very suspicious timing. She was pregnant. We know that for sure. And soon after, the Empress Dowager, Shuan, also died.

19:26Suspicious timing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know how Sir Shi was rumoured to have been involved in this second one? With the Empress Dowager, her former? Her former sort of partner in crime. Partner in crime. Women own business. I feel like a poisoning. Yeah, it is a poisoning. I feel like that happens with people with flower names. Do you know what the poison was put in? A drink? No, I mentioned at the beginning, actually, it was put in a sweet cake. A sweet cake? Sweet cake, a bake-off special. And suddenly the Dowager Empress, Shun, is dead. people at court are suspicious but they can't prove it nothing is proved so now we have one woman running the show because there's a four year old boy over here and only one that's what she wants so finally Sushi is the absolute power behind, she is the throne really yes Sophie obviously you're not going to commit a crime anytime soon but if you had to if you were going to have to take out a comedy rival Catherine Boha, get rid of her now Wow, Catherine would never eat anything I served.

20:33But you can keep that in. How would I do it? I think I'd have to do something in the green room. I think if you put free chips in the green room in any green room in the country, comics are going to eat it. That's true. So I think it would have to be like hot fries. The problem is all the comedians would die. It wouldn't be just one. You would lose an entire bill of comedians. Yeah, but I mean, I don't mind taking it out a night at the comedy store. how do you imagine her as a ruler? We've talked about her as sort of climbing the ladder in terms of court politics. What do you imagine she's like in terms of China?

21:07I imagine she's not fun. I love that. That's great. I don't think she's... I think because I think she's had a lot of time tolerating these wastrel or literal baby kings. So I feel like she's maybe a bit more austere. She's a bit more tight with the purse strings and a bit more punitive. Sure. Is that correct? Yang Wen, what is, in terms of her public policy, in terms of what she does for the people of China, what can we ascribe to her? In a way, she was a good ruler because after the second open war, China basically avoided conflict with the West for 20 or 30 years. Yeah. And she launched reform.

21:52She sanctioned a lot of reform projects. China was learning from the West, catching up, modernizing, industrializing. She sanctioned all those projects. Yeah. She bought warships and weapons. Yes, railways and all that stuff. So telegraph lines and modern factories. Yeah, I mean, you've written a book on the history of the railways in China. That's her policy. Yeah. And then, of course, her nephew slash son grows up and he becomes Emperor Guangzhou. Yes. And the same story with choosing emperors. I was going to say. The turkey bird repeats again. Right. So she's like, you can't be emperor until you're married and I'm going to choose your wife.

22:27Yes. Is that right? Yes. Wow. There's all these external pressures on her, these wars, China fighting Japan and France and so on. and she's trying to bring in these reforms in the army and in society. Yeah. But there is a coup against her, Sophie. And do you know what happens in this coup? Do you know who leads the coup, perhaps? Coup, I'd say, probably led by another concubine. Oh, nice. Yeah. A rival sushi who's climbed a ladder. Concubine or concubine, yeah. Someone in the nine levels. Yeah. It's a good guess. Yang I mean, it's not a concubine. No. Do you want to tell us who it is? It's the emperor.

23:03It's her nephew. Oh, her nephew. It's amazing that we've called it a coup because he is the emperor. He's like, hold on a minute. Yeah, yeah. It's not a coup, it's my own throne. But yeah, he tries to get rid of her. Yes. And she does some political judo. Yes. And she gets rid of him. Yeah, well, she put him under house arrest for the next... This is the audacity, I love it. Yeah. This makes a fantastic film. She put him under house arrest on an island. Okay, island arrest. Yeah. From September 1898 to November 1908 when he died. So 10 years. 10 years. So is he sort of secretly, like, does the rest of the country know that their emperor is stuck in a shed somewhere?

23:50No. Really? Because all the edicts were still issued in the name of the emperor. The Guangzhou Emperor. Yeah. Okay. So there we go. So if you come for the, well, I was going to say come for the king. if you come for the Empress Dowager, you better not miss, Sophie. Better not miss. Wow. So her own nephew in house arrest. Her own nephew on an island. Possibly poisoned her sort of business partner. Yeah. Possibly poisoned a pregnant woman. Yeah. She died in 1908. Sophie, do you know what her final act was? Literally within days before her death, what was the last thing she did? In her final days, she knew she was going to die.

24:26She's at the end of her life. She picked her heir? Well, do you remember the emperor who's still in house arrest? Oh, yeah, on the island. She got rid of him. Oh, no! One day before she died. 16 hours before. 16 hours before she died. Oh, my God! She made sure he wasn't going to come back to power. Wow. She's a real bitter lady. Not bitter. I mean, she's like, you don't have to get bitter if you take care of business before you go. Yeah, she just lined up all the dominoes. Yeah, she was dying and she said to people around her that he must die before I die. Okay, so she bumped off the emperor. So who was the next?

25:06The next person to take over is the last emperor, the famous last emperor. Yeah, the last emperor. And he's another three-year-old boy. Yes. So when you see boy emperors in Chinese history, something fishy is going on. Right, okay. That three-year-old is the son of the nephew that she murders. So, and of course, he abdicates in 1911 and that is the end of the imperial story. Yeah. So quite a life, Sophie. Yeah. How do you feel about Sushi now? Sushi, I feel resoundingly positive. I feel real good about her. Because I feel like she entered her villain era and I'm not sure she left it. Yeah, she didn't really depart from the villain era.

25:43But I mean, like, she played the game. I think she was an incredible player of the game. Also, a little bit of poison. a little bit of poison is not the worst thing in the world and i think i really respect how she refused to let adult men be in charge um hey i don't love that she murdered a pregnant woman sure and you can quote me on that i can't stay mad at her i know she did some bad things okay but i think she is sort of an inspiration the nuance window

26:16That brings us to our nuance window. This is where Sophie and I sit quietly and brainstorm new noble names for ourselves for two minutes. We need, I think, eight new names each, probably. While Professor Yang Wen holds court and tells us something that we need to know about Empress Dowager Su Shi. And my stopwatch is ready. You have two minutes. Take it away, Professor Zhong. She has been wronged in some ways by historians for generations because she's a woman and because of allegedly the things she did. If you look in the long run, if she wasn't there, China might have disappeared in 1862. So you can say that she helped pop up the Qing Dynasty for another four or five decades after the Second Opian War.

27:10That's number one. Number two, the reform she stepped in to stop, 100 days reform. If you look from today's perspective, it might be too early. China might not have been ready for it as a country, because if China was not ready, it will cause chaos because the political reforms that the Guangxi Emperor wanted. She also has one saving grace. As historians have managed to mine further into the archives, we realized that the Guangxi Emperor, who wanted all those radical reform, her nephew, emperor, actually was in secret communication with the Japanese. He met with the full-time Japanese prime minister.