Empress Matilda: civil war in medieval England

27:01Oh, Stephen. Steve, shall we call him Steve first? I've heard of Stephen. Stephen LeClois. He is crowned on the 22nd of December. So Henry dies on the 1st of December. Stephen is crowned on the 22nd. Three weeks later. So literally. That is a quick party arrangement. It's even like the same age as her. You know, they have a cousin of a similar age and your families are like, well, Stephen got five A stars in his UCSCs Matilda. Stephen's going to Oxford. Stephen's actually become King of England. Yeah, yeah. Poor Matilda. I mean, it does help. Talking of meddling bishops, Stephen's brother is the Bishop of Winchester, which is a big...

27:36Very handy, very handy. But Matilda, when we're talking about pregnancies, she has concerns with this third pregnancy and perhaps doesn't travel quite as quickly due to the risk. Is she pregnant when that happens, when her dad dies? Yes. This poor woman, this is a lot to deal with. And she's also, to be fair, she's battling with her father at this point. So when Henry dies, they're not on good terms. There's a lot of already complex trauma in the relationship, and then a grief happens. Yes, this is a lot. She's stressed. We've all been there, then your cousin takes the royal throne, you're less stuck in Normandy.

28:10That's it. So a cousin swooping in. So we have the double whammy here of brotherly nepotism and a man taking a woman job while she's on maternity leave. It's the absolute 21st century. Something's never changed. Oh, something's never changed. Poor Matilda. Let's hear about Stevie B, the throne thief. That's his hip-hop name. King Stephen. Stephen of Blois. Who is he? He's about 10 years older than Matilda. Even worse. If we go with the 1092 birthday. He is the third son of King Henry I's sister, Adela. Oh, Adela. The family relationship there. He's a favourite of Henry I. He grows up in the English court because his mum sent him there thinking it'd be more sophisticated than they learn.

28:56So he's well known by the nobles, which puts him in good stead when he does nip across the channel. He's been hanging out with the lads in the men's clubs. Yeah, I get you. And he's married to? Matilda! Yes, he is. Heiress to the county of Boulogne. That's our fifth Matilda. our final Matilda our fifth and final Matilda yes okay so the obvious question I have to ask you Carrie Ad is how come Stephen of Bois is still alive when the white ship went down oh why wasn't he on that ship was he on the other ship he was not on the other ship wait what is he a butcher from Wuhan and he like trained really hard and became King Stephen no do you remember we said they were having a very sort of boozy party oh did he pass out and didn't get on the ship he got so drunk he didn't get on the ship he didn't get on the ship because he had debilitating diarrhoea debilitating and he had debilitating diarrhoea a brutal hangover didn't get on the ship he didn't get on the white ship because he had the yeah it's like Final Destination you know those sort of Final Destination movies where someone doesn't get on the plane and it crashes and they're like yeah so he was saved we've had people in the past who've like shot himself to death but he was saved by his diarrhoea so all the other male possible heirs were on that ship apart from Stephen yeah wow that is bold isn't it you don't want to bring that up at a dinner party though don't you?

30:16Don't give me too much for you though Stephen, how come? Because your brother, all these people I was there why didn't you get the ship? It was too crowded, it was too busy I wouldn't have fitted on It was a busy day at the harbour I couldn't find it Wow So there we go, Stephen is the king Matilda gives birth, survives the childbirth to William and now she looks across the channel and goes hang on a second, that's my throne should have been me so what does she do next? she sails over with an army and says that is my bloody throne she doesn't need any jewels she's already got her own crown jewels she's brought her own she's brought a German hat get out my phone Stephen I think it's time now for the anarchy which doesn't mean that you can start throwing chairs around the studio so this is when she forms a heavy metal band That's right.

31:11That's it. She plays rhythm guitar. Matilda and the Anarchy. That's a great name for a band. That's a great name for a band, isn't it? Matilda and Anarchy. Yeah. They do weddings, bomb it. I mean, it's what you want. We are now into the anarchy, which is not a medieval phrase. Victorians coined it as the anarchy. Okay. Because, you know, it's that idea that society completely fell apart. And there are bits of society that are absolutely wrecked by war during this period, but not all of it. So would we call this a civil war? Yeah, I think 12th century Civil War, the lesser known of the Civil War.

31:43Sure. Perhaps.

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32:47But Matilda, you know, she spent that time in Normandy. They focus on taking that first, think that's the way forward. But as we say, we get to around 11.38, 11.39. She's like, hang on. Now I need to focus on taking England. Several of the English barons, including her half-brother, Robert of Gloucester, who comes in very handy, renounced her oaths to Stephen. Matilda's uncle, David, the King of Scotland, also caused his problem up in the north. 11.39, she does apply for the Pope to try and support her claim, but he's not interested. He doesn't reply to her letters. How do you apply to the Pope?

33:20You just fill in a form? It really sounded like she applied for a job. Yeah. Yeah, but no luck there. But she decides to sail for England anyway in September 11.39. Unfortunately, her stepmother, Adeliza, who's at Arendelle, says, Oh, come here. I'll support you. Arendelle's a very lovely town. Very nice day out. Got a great castle. Lovely castle. Lovely antique shops. Good cafes. I've been to the castle. So her ex-husband had kidnapped the Pope. So it's no surprise that the Pope has Holy Ghosted her. I don't know why she's applying to him. It's a long shot, right? Yeah. How old is Matilda at this point?

33:53Late 30s? Yeah, she's 37. Wow. She's coming into her own. She knows what she wants. Yeah. And again, all that experience she had in Germany, she knows she can rule. so carry on we've got Matilda who's made military inroads she's got useful alliances she's got family Robert she's got her step mum her uncle okay so the country's divided civil war what team would you have chosen team Matilda or team Stephen and before you give me your answer I'm just going to give you a little bit of etymological history here Stephen means crown in ancient Greek so that's quite a handy name for a king but Matilda in old German means mighty in battle so where are you siding who would you go for Guys, this is a lot of pressure I'm siding with Matilda because I've only really heard her story I don't know much about Stephen other than he's a lad's lad It's reminding me of Catherine of Aragon and Henry VIII because it's like they surely everyone kind of knows Matilda, right?

34:46But she hasn't been in England for very long She hasn't been in England for very long She left at eight? Yeah, she's been over in Europe hasn't she And then she came back but she was a bit foreign So the English court probably is going with Stephen more than Matilda But I'm with Matilda Okay I'm with Mighty and Battle Mighty and Battle Although, when I think about the ruler with the kings and queens on, I don't really remember Matilda being there repeatedly. So I'm a bit worried that it's not going to work out well for old Tilly's. The Horror History song goes William, William, Henry, Stephen, Henry, Richard, John.

35:14There's no Matilda in there. There's no Matilda. Gabby, talk us through the war then. This brutal anarchy, this civil war. It's easy to think of this as a dynastic war. But a civil war means the ordinary population are caught up in the violence. Yeah, because they are vassals of the Lords, the barons, who take sides in this and therefore get involved in the battles. And we do have quite a few battles. So once Matilda's got to Arendelle, enjoyed the castle, had a few scenic walks, makes her way over to Bristol, off to the West Country. Because her half-brother, Robert, Duke of Gloucester, is there.

35:45So he's got people on side for her. So they decide to start battling. This civil war actually doesn't get off to a great start. They hit a stalemate pretty quickly because the barons are interested in bits of land as opposed to actually who's on the throne. Yeah, but barons always are interested in land. People should just come with land and then give that to the barons if they want to get the throne. There are very few positive barons in history. There are very few. This kind of carries on for about two years. In February 1141, have a breakthrough. Battle of Lincoln. Stephen is captured. So Matilda has Stephen in chains.

36:21Oh my goodness. And he's imprisoned at Bristol Castle. Wow. And she now is the queen, yes? Yes? No, the barons don't back it, right? Come on! Nope, nope, absolutely. She's not there yet. So we have this little period where she is arranging to get herself crowned in London, in Westminster, of course. So she starts minting some coins, has Lady of the English stamped on the coins as like a precursor to becoming queen. And she proceeds to London to be crowned, but the Londoners reject her. they will not let her in but Cariad told me at the beginning of the episode that she was very popular I've obviously remembered that completely incorrectly that when I'm sure I remember him saying that she was like that Stephen was not as popular and the people cheered Matilda Queen Matilda, Stephen's wife is popular oh maybe I've been telling Matilda that may be where Ackroyd's coming from it's very easy to mix in Matildas we've got five Matildas to deal with Yes, there was something.

37:23She was very popular and the crowd were cheering outside Westminster Abbey. So not for Empress Matilda, who they're like, where have you been, mate? They were cheering for Queen Matilda. So there's already a Queen Matilda? There is. Stephen's wife, Queen Matilda. So for simplicity, I will do Queen Matilda and Empress Matilda. Yeah, so there you go. I had read about Queen Matilda and I thought it was our Matilda, but she's Empress Matilda. This is where the confusion... But, but, there's always a historical but, isn't there? So Queen Matilda's actually been threatening the Londoners anyway. So as much as they like her, she does have her armies going, no, no Empress, she's not coming in.

37:58Empress Matilda's also made a few poor political choices, so she won't give the Londoners special privileges that they've always held. She's trying to get money from them. They're just like, you're not coming in, love. Don't annoy the Londoners, mate. Don't annoy them. Yeah, so we've seen that she's had all this political skill, but it just doesn't pay off here. It really doesn't. Is it because she's showing up wearing her German crown, wearing her German shoes, saying, Hello, I am here, I am your queen. I don't think you need those privileges anymore and you will need to pay me tax so I can live in Bristol.

38:32Yeah. I mean, we'll get to this. I think we'll talk about this later, the kind of the reasons why. But I think it must have been a humiliating moment, right? The rightful queen who has won militarily, who has captured the rightful. Yeah, she should, by right. She should, by right. Come sailing to Westminster. And yet the people of London are like, get out, love. You're not around here. and she just goes home? What happens? No, so she flees back to the West Country where she's safe and tries to negotiate with Matilda. So we've got the Battle of the Matildas now going on because Stephen's still imprisoned.

39:05So we have the Siege of Winchester in September 1141 but Empress Matilda doesn't come out of this very well either. She's forced to flee when Queen Matilda rocks up with her armies yet again. this Queen Matilda's like hot on her heels isn't she, like powerful woman and using her political strength and unfortunately Winchester goes very badly because Robert of Gloucester Empress Matilda's half-brother is captured so now we have the negotiations of Matilda being like give me back Stephen, Matilda give me back Robert, Stephen, Robert Stephen, Robert and get out of the pub this is like Pat and Peggy all over again very equally matched different sides of the square but basically the same person she swapped Stephen for Rodrigo Gloucester yeah and Stephen is released and then goes back on the throne yeah straight back on that throne with his very powerful and clever and politically astute wife Matilda it's got to rub in a little bit it's the same name everyone's like oh I love that Queen Matilda and she's like oh oh you mean that one and then we get an even bigger disaster Gabby the Battle of Oxford yep so this is 1142 so Empress Matilda is again forced to flee and this is really her last rallying cry in terms of what she gets up to at this moment in time Stephen besieges the city they are sieged for three months and eventually she is forced to escape she escapes wearing a white cloak to disguise her amongst the snow as she sneaks out the gate Oh, that's Game of Thrones.

40:43It's kind of camouflage, right? It's sort of sneaky, sneaky. But you can see one of the characters in the white... Yeah, you know, Jon Snow is like, come this way. And she puts her white cloak and then runs through. Presumably an ermine fur. Presumably. I'm trying to think what's a white animal that they would have skinned in anticipation. Like, come here, little weasel. Thousand white ferrets. Literally, a lot of animals. We're skinned for you, Matilda. So she sneaks out the back door, hides in the snow, rides to safety. So she's not captured. She is the European hide-and-seek champion. Yeah, yeah.

41:15Does she go back to Europe at this point? I mean, in the movie, escaping in the snow, that would be the beginning of the comeback, right? Yeah. But in terms of the history books. Yeah, unfortunately not. So she does try to rally a couple more times, but she's almost, she's lost her. Yeah, she lost it, babes. It's gone. Moment's gone. Yeah. And I mean, Stephen's had himself crowned for a second time to reassert his authority, rarely sorting the wounds. Not king once, but king twice, Londoners. King Stephen II. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. If you remember her older son, Henry. Yep. So he does try and invade in 1147.

41:52In the name of his mum? In the name of his mum. Oh, that's so adorable. But he does this without any money, without Matilda's knowledge. That's a classic teenager, isn't it? Yeah, you know, absolutely. Bear in mind, he's 14. That's so sweet. This is actually my... I should be like the king. Like, you're so reasonable. Yeah, and Stephen has to pay for Henry's troops to go away because Henry doesn't have the money to pay them. Oh, that's so charming. He's done his best. Charming slash embarrassing. It's really cringe, isn't it? And then he comes back two years later, 1149, and that's a failure as well because the attack pretty much disintegrates as soon as he lands.

42:31So he doesn't have the best of luck. Matilda transferred her claim over to him. And he does these little hurries over the next few years, but it doesn't really get anywhere. Okay. Until... I was going to say, because he becomes Henry II at some point, and he's the start of the Plantagenus, right? That's right. So, yeah, when does he get his stuff together? Well, it's worth mentioning, we haven't mentioned so far, Eustace. Eustace is the king's son, Stephen's son, and he carks it. He sort of keels over dead. He'd been the heir apparent. Yeah, you don't get King Eustace bandied around. No. But interestingly, Stephen doesn't seem very sure on naming Eustace as his heir.

43:11Oh, okay. So he had tried to have him kind of crowned as a co-king. But the Pope at the time said, no, we're not having two kings in England at the same time. So he can't be co-king. Oh, so he tried to deal with the problem that happened to Matilda by being like, I'm just going to start him as the CEO now. We're both the CEOs. We're both in charge. Job shit. I do Mondays and Wednesdays. Yeah, so basically when I die, you've already got a king that you're used to. Yeah. But Eustace just isn't really put in place. He's useless. Eustace the useless. Yeah, effectively. And Henry has gone off, made a sterling marriage for himself to Eleanor of Aquitaine.

43:50So he's now got even more resources. So once Eustace dies... And he's got the need for vengeance. Yes. Like a country was taken from him. He's been waiting in Normandy all this time, training. day eight and taekwondo yeah it's worth pointing out though that Eustace has a brother yes there is an heir just sitting there going I can do it I'm here I'm also here dad yeah and Stephen's like absolutely not so what's his brother called William oh another William another useless William he's just like I've done all the exams I'm ready put me in dad I'm ready it's like the Roman in succession yeah like we've got Kendall we don't need you yeah So Stephen and Henry make the Treaty of Winchester, agree that Henry will give advice to Stephen whilst he's still ruling.

44:39Okay. Henry is named as heir and William is going to renounce all his claims to the throne and has to pledge allegiance to Henry. Even though he's the rightful king of England. That's really weird, isn't it? It's brutal, isn't it? Yeah. Wow. It feels like there's a whole vibe of, like, everybody was like, yeah, no, not William. Like, obviously not William, mate. No, no, no. It's fine. Like, it's fine. It can be Henry. never mind this huge war we had with his mum. So we've had a sort of anarchic civil war that's lasted, I mean, over a decade, right? But this is mad because her heir then becomes king anyway.

45:14So Stephen Basie just wanted, he just wanted the throne for a bit. He wasn't bothered about his dynasty starting. It was just like, no, I just want to go at this job. But then I'm going to give it to your son. He just didn't want Matilda to have it. Yeah, well, that's interesting, isn't it? Is there something to that? Is Cariad right? It just doesn't want of women on the throne yeah yeah i mean that is potentially part of it in terms of you know matilda goes over what we what you expect to see of women at this point we don't expect to see a woman ruling in england but there is the slight issue as well they don't like jeffrey of onjoo they don't like matilda's husband they're worried about foreign influence if um she becomes queen like what's his role gonna be is she gonna like rule in her own right or bypass that yeah but And then they install his son, who must be of the same lineage.

46:04But he's still a man, Carriott. He's a man, he's a man. And that's much more acceptable to them. So it's quite a sensible compromise to the end of this devastating civil war. Everyone's sort of gone, come on, let's just agree on this. And everyone's gone, all right, all right. Yeah, because Henry II is royal. His lineage is good. And he has all this land through his wife. He has all the land through his wife. So Eleanor of Aquitaine brings all this. So although the opposite applied for Matilda, you know, the idea of the husband being a problem, the queen, the wife, is not a problem, right? Eleanor is great.

46:35That's very handy. She's not going to have any decisions. She's just going to bring the land. Okay, I can see why they're on board. So King Stephen died in October 1154. Henry II becomes the king. So Matilda's son on the throne. And Matilda gets to be what? Queen mum? Yeah, I mean, she is a bit of a... Is she sort of the Kris Jenner here? Is she kind of a mummager? Yeah, I mean, she's got three sons to try and keep in line a bit. And yeah, absolutely, she rises from the ashes and is really involved. So she looks after Normandy pretty much full time whilst Henry's absent. Now, bearing in mind, obviously, Henry's got England.

47:08He's got all these lands that he's got from Eleanor, Aquitaine and his various other counties. So Matilda keeps an eye on Normandy. Again, gets involved with the archbishops. She loves a bite. We had mum dealing with Archbishop of Canterbury One. we have Matilda dealing with Thomas Beckett and Henry and trying to mediate between them. Doesn't go great, let's be honest. No, it doesn't. One of history is great, not the outcome you're looking for. No, but she tries, she tries. We've got letters from the time that show that she was very politically astute. She does get involved. She's very well respected.

47:43So, for example, Henry decides to try and invade Ireland in 1155 and Matilda warns him against it and then that doesn't go ahead at that moment in time. He does try later after she's died. she still brings all her experience to the fore and you kind of think she must have had a sense of I never became queen but I get to rule through Henry which is a pretty common female role at this royal family yeah she gets to see her son doing the job and doing it and Henry II is one of the great kings of English medieval history he's controversial, he has a temper he kills the archbishop in a sacred cathedral so it's not ideal but he often goes down as one of the great kings yes definitely And presumably that's partly because of Matilda's influence.

48:25Yeah. I mean, I argue he has a great wife and a great mum and they do carry a lot of the work until he pushes them off to one side. And then you can check out the Eleanor of Aquitaine episode for the rest of that. But, yes. So Matilda dies in 1167, aged about 65. Well, she does well. And she dies in Rouen in Normandy. Yeah. And she's very at the Abbey of Beck, which is somewhere where she spent a lot of her life. it was where she gave birth to her second son and it's a place that's really important to her. So Normandy is her life, really. But I think she's content with that because it's somewhere she still has power.

49:04Yeah, she does end up in power. Yeah. But not as high as maybe she would have hoped for. Yeah, and Geoffrey's long dead by this point as well. Her husband Geoffrey. So she kind of just goes it all. And Henry II is the first Plantagenet king, is that right? So she starts a dynasty. She does. And a really good dynasty in terms of the name of the nation. Yeah, the Plantagenets. All the way up to Richard III. So we kind of discussed it a little bit already, Gabby, the idea that people rejected a woman, London said no, and there was this sort of moment where everyone was like, wow, we prefer a man.

49:37There is this sort of accusation that Matilda is haughty, arrogant, sort of steps on people's toes and puts noses out of a joint and maybe hasn't got the kind of soft skills. Where do you stand on that one? Yeah, so I think there's an element, certainly of like 12th century sexism from the writers of the time. They do expect queens to be in power temporarily, but we have Uraqa of Leon Castile, we have Melisande of Jerusalem, we do have other women who rule in their own right at this time, so it's not uncommon. They're always daughters of kings, is that fair? So it's rare for them to rule, sort of having acquired power themselves, it's often handed down.

50:14Yeah, it's usually inherited. But as I mentioned, they are suspicious of the role Geoffrey's going to play with regards to that foreign influence. She does make mistakes. She winds up the Londoners. She does release Stephen. So perhaps not all that political skills there. But given the chance, she could have done a good job. And we see that in Normandy. But then interesting, the release of Stephen is... So she doesn't murder a king. No. And then that allows her son to become the star of a dynasty. So actually, are we looking at her skills in a very masculine, powerful, overruling set of skills of like, well, you didn't get to the throne.

50:53That means you failed. Whereas actually, does she play a much more manipulative politician's game? I give you the king back so that I can then guarantee this. So she actually does get what she wants, which is the lineage, right? Yeah. And I think she doesn't conform to the gendered boundaries they expect. I mean, you talk about masculinity there. She expects to be kind of female king. she expects to be assuming all that power and therefore comes in with the expectation again she's already been holy roman empress yeah coming in expecting to rule she's got the crown yeah as opposed to perhaps being that more kind of soft diplomacy with the nobles and getting them on side more delicately she's a bit more forceful and i think that's where some of that haughtiness comes from like she's not like when people say she's a diva but it's like well is she a diva or is she a woman who knows what she would like.

51:42Yes. You know, she was Celine Dion of the 12th century and there's nothing wrong with that. There we go, Celine Dion of the 12th century. The nuance window!

51:57Okay, time now for the nuance window. This is the part of the show where Cariad and I quietly try to remember all the five Matildas and three Henrys that we've mentioned while Dr Gabby takes to the battlefield to tell us something that we need to know about Empress Matilda and medieval queenship. So my stopwatch is ready. You've got two minutes. Take it away, Dr Gabby. So I want to talk about medieval queens as co-rulers because I think there's this idea that medieval queens are just there to give birth to children and that's it. And maybe they're quite pious. Maybe they focus on what we call soft power.

52:27But actually these are women who can rule in their own right, so to speak. They are very powerful. They can share power with the king. and Matilda does this really well with Geoffrey in terms of sharing power and sharing her rights they work very well together as a couple but going beyond Matilda we see this again fantastically with Eleanor of Aquitaine she brings her power from Aquitaine as Duchess and shares that with Henry so I think we need to move beyond the idea that it's always the king that's giving and sharing power it's women who can actually bring a lot to the marriage bring a lot to rulership through a different set of skills whether that's diplomacy and soft skills patronage mediating with the bishops when they're being a bit naughty women are very capable of exercising power they do do it on a regular basis and it's not just agency it's not just something that's soft directly with matilda we don't see her leading an army at the front of it but we do see women leading armies in this period as well so i think there's much more to be said about queens being able to actually directly rule not all power is vested in one man it's shared with his mum in the case of matilda it's shared with his wife it can be shared with his daughters or you know sometimes with other men but you know with um with governors and regents and so forth as well so i think there's a lot more to medieval queens than maybe we think they're not just there to give birth to children.

54:00They do quite well. Thank you so much, Gabby. Fascinating character. Yeah, amazing. Absolutely amazing. Yeah. It's been quite a life, Matilda's life. I can't wait to see the film. I can't wait to see Anne Hathaway in a white coat sneaking out. Cate Blanchett. I feel like Cate Blanchett might be good. Who's playing the eight-year-old? I mean, that's tough, isn't it? That's tough. You've got to do a big national casting for that. Yeah. Obviously, that's huge. that's huge but for the later queen was empress matilda yeah so what do you know now

54:34time now for the so what do you know now this is our quickfire quiz for cariad to see how much she's learned cariad you're very good at the quizzes i know but i always get really stressed i feel like history just gc all over again if you're in an absolute crisis situation just say matilda or henry and you're probably yeah yeah but here we go 10 questions okay question one Who was Matilda's father, who betrothed her eight to be married and maybe killed his own brother? Henry I. It was. Yeah, so I doubted myself there. I was like, Henry I, yeah. Question two. Where did Matilda spend most of her youth and teenage years?

55:05Germany. It was Germany. Question three. What was the White Ship Disaster? The White Ship Disaster, Greg, is a real big incident in medieval history. I'm surprised Carrie didn't know about it. This is where they're sailing back from Normandy to England. and Henry I's son was on there, William, and there was another ship that went off, but they all got drunk. They shouldn't have been steering a ship. They shouldn't have been doing that. It's like Hollyoaks when the young guys get drunk and get in a car. And 300 sailors died and the only person left was the butcher of Rowan who claims, which I'm doubting the story.

55:39He's like, everyone had too good a time. They set sail at night. You think it's a CIA job, you think? You think it's a hit? All the heirs and all the illegitimate sons died, including Williams. William, Henry I's son. Very comprehensive answer. Well done. Question four. Why did Matilda not want to marry her second husband, Geoffrey of Anjou? Because he was a teenager. He was 15. And he was not as high up as her. He made a count of Anjou, but he wasn't as high up. Very good. Well done. Question five. Who seized the throne when Henry I died instead of Matilda, the rightful queen? Well, of course, King Stephen.

56:14King Stephen. Yes, because his name means crowns. You know, it's an easy mistake to make. Question six Why didn't Stephen drown in the white ship in 1120? Because he had diarrhoea of the bottom and it was coming out of him like a river and so he could not move and he was not a well man That's right He had regal fecal disaster Question seven How did Matilda cunningly escape from the castle after losing the Battle of Oxford? She put a white cloak on and padded out into the snow where she could then get away. Yeah, camouflage back in the 1140s. In 1142. Look at you in your notes. Question eight. Who led Stephen's army against Matilda after his capture?

56:59Queen Matilda. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Queen Matilda, the other Matilda who the Londoners did like. Exactly that. Question nine. Why did the people of London turn Empress Matilda away when she tried to be crowned? She was trying to charge them extra money. She was trying to take away their privileges. And the Londoners were like, we ain't having it. We ain't having it, Empress. We got another Matilda. We don't need you. Very good. And this for a perfect turn, what was the sensible compromise that ended the anarchy? King Stephen agreed to let Henry, Empress Matilda's son, become king, hence starting the Plantagenet dynasty in 1154.

57:36Ten out of ten, Cariad Lloyd. Absolutely incredible. Well done. Brilliant. Well done, Cariad. Thank you very much. And of course, thank you so much, Gabby, for a wonderful history lesson. A listener, if you want more Medieval Queens with Dr Gabby, you can check out our episode on Eleanor Aquitaine featuring Cariad's ostentatious castmate, Rachel Paris. For more Cariad, obviously we've got lots of episodes with you, but Agrippina the Younger and Mary Wollstonecraft are two of my faves. And for more argumentative English royals, there's always our episode on the causes of the British Civil Wars, which we've now discovered is the second English Civil War, but that's very confusing, so we'll just pretend.

58:08Let's call it the anarchy as a whole other thing. I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests in History Corner. we had the fantastic Dr Gabrielle Story. Thank you, Gabby. Thank you, Greg and Cariad. Well done for not throwing any chairs around. It was a very placid anarchy today, wasn't it? We were very calm. And in Comedy Corner, we had the ever brilliant Cariad Lloyd. Thank you, Cariad. Au revoir, mon siror, as they would have said. I mean, now's not the time to point out that 12th century French was actually a bit more Viking sounding. It was much more harsh Norman. Le César Kays in Norman French.

58:39This knife is sharp. Yes, and to you lovely listener, join me next time as we consider both sides of another historical argument and then settle it with a compromise. But for now, I'm off to lock up my cousin before he tries to snatch the podcast from me. It's mine, all mine. Bye.

58:58You're Dead to Me is a BBC Studios audio production for BBC Radio 4.

59:12Strong message here from BBC Radio 4. I'm Amanda Iannucci. And I'm Helen Lewis. A comedy writer and a journalist teaming up like a pair of unkempt and unlikely superheroes. Our mission is to decipher political language. Stress testing to destruction those used and abused buzzwords and phrases. Finding out what they really mean. And looking at whether they're meant to deceive us. Or to distract us. Or to disturb us. And our pledge is to help you spot the tricks of the verbal trade. But be one, this series does feature strong political language that some listeners may find an inverted pyramid of piffle.

59:44Strong message here from BBC Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Sounds.

59:53Hi, I'm Dan Snow, historian and host of Dan Snow's History at Podcast. I want to tell you about a brand new series I don't want you to miss, about the real history behind The Odyssey. With a major new Hollywood adaptation arriving this month, we'll trace Odysseus' epic journey across the Mediterranean, uncover the world of Mycenaean Greece, and investigate the mysteries of Homer and what draws us back to this timeless masterpiece again and again. For everything you need to know about the Odyssey, check out Dan Snow's history hit wherever you get your podcasts.