Empress Matilda (Radio Edit)

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1:40BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are moseying back to medieval England and throwing fists in the fiercest of family feuds as we learn all about Empress Matilda and the anarchy and joining our royal court are two very special guests in History Corner. She's a historian of monarchy and sexuality specialising in medieval history. She's the author of Beringaria of Navarre, Queen of England and Lord of Le Mans and you'll remember her from our episode on Eleanor of Aquitaine.

2:17It's Dr Gabrielle's story. Welcome back Gabby. Great thanks for having me back. And in Comedy Corner she's a multi-talented comedian actor a writer. You'll know her from the TV panel show. She's an author. Her new children's book Where Does She Go is a lovely analysis of grief for kids. It's beautiful. Plus she has a career as a Jane Austen improv whiz in the hilarious ostentatious improv show. She's a busy woman and you'll definitely remember her from our episodes of You're Dead to Me including Georgian Courtship and the Arts and Crafts Movement. It's the wonderful Cariad Lloyd. Welcome back Cariad.

2:44Ahoy there Sarah. As they said in medieval times yes. Good morrow upon thee. Yes. Gabby's nodding like yeah yeah absolutely that was your classic English greeting well we do need it in Anglo-French for this episode bonjour sir ça va? now Cariad together we have done Agrippina the Younger of Rome a sort of Empress we've done plenty of Regency and Victoriana we've not done medieval together we have not gone back to medieval times and so when I say to you Empress Matilda and the Anarchy you think I feel like I have one piece of information about Matilda which could be wrong but I feel like I read it once in Peter Aykroyd's London and I only remember two things from Peter Aykroyd's London and I feel like she was a really popular queen that's what I thought about Matilda and that when she came out of Westminster Abbey once they were cheering her and that's the area of St Giles was a slum I'm so sorry Peter Aykroyd it's a very large tome it's a very big book very heavy yeah I should remember more popular queen interesting we will address that later I think because that is not Not what I would have guessed.

3:52Oh, no. Well, take it out with Peter Ackroyd, not me. So, what do you know?

4:02Great, that brings us to the first segment of the podcast, which is the So What Do You Know. This is where I guess what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And for most of you, Matilda is most probably going to be the heroine from the Roald Dahl story, more so than medieval royal diva, I suspect. But you may have read Ken Follett's famous mega-massive medieval novel, The Pillars of the Earth, which in 2010 was turned into a TV series as well. And of course, if video games are more your speed, and particularly if you're an elder millennial like me, you may have played Age of Empires 2 expansion pack, in which you can battle against Empress Matilda.

4:35But who was the real life Matilda? How did a family squabble turn into a full-blown civil war? Let's find out. Right, Dr Gabby, when was Matilda born? Where are we in history? And are we talking royal baby? yeah so we're talking about england to start off with though france will jump into the scene on quite a few occasions yeah but matilda's born around february 1102 she is the daughter of henry ii king of england who was the youngest son of william the conqueror also known by another name that's not radio 4 friendly so we'll keep it at that for the moment and her mother was matilda of scotland and matilda of scotland is descendant of alfred the great so this gives some legitimacy she's like she's royalty we don't know loads unfortunately about her upbringing so royal girls are often raised in nunneries and sometimes they're at court with their mothers if they're at court with their mothers and they're traveling around you know we know that she goes to exeter she's in norwich windsor canterbury so she does move around of the court quite a bit now her mum matilda of scotland she is very cultured she's very pious so she wants to pass that on to her daughter but Matilda of Scotland is also very keen on exercising power so we can see her with a good amount of political authority again something Junior Matilda's going to pick up on and we say travel about you know you mentioned Exeter and it's sort of sunny climes you know sweltering Exeter but she went considerably further at a young age do you want to guess where Carrie had France further than France oh me oui Germany yeah oh yeah all the way to Germany all the way to Germany.

6:13So she went to the school exchange for the Germany because the French one was full. Well, it wasn't a school exchange programme, Carrie. Oh, it was to meet a man to marry. Yeah. It was marriage exchange. Yeah. You know what, Greg, they look down on that in schools these days. Yeah, yeah. Often on this show, I have to sort of honk my problematic marriage clacks. How old are we talking here, Gabby? Oh, yeah, how old? Eight. Oh! Now, look, I've heard some low numbers before on this programme, but that is low. Medievals. What is wrong with you? I mean, officially engaged at the age of eight. That's fine.

6:47That's fine then. Yeah, no. I mean, the marriage is delayed for a few years because even then they realise that that's quite young to be being married. But they would like to say it like, this is going to happen. We're just making sure everyone, we've signed the contracts. Yeah. You can see what you're buying. But they're not going to actually get married for a while. Yeah. I mean, I'm making it sound like it's reasonable. Yeah. But she does go out there at eight, right? Yes. To Germany. So her father is a ranger. Her father is Henry. Yeah. And she's betrothed to who? Henry. Oh, another one. The fifth.

7:16Can't call him Heinrich or something. He's also Henry the fifth. Heinrich, yeah. Oh, Heinrich the fifth. Yep, Heinrich. And he is what? And he is king of the Romans. So Germany at this time, also you go by the title of king of the Romans. So it can be king of Germany, king of the Romans, because most of the rulers become Holy Roman Emperor as well, which is what happens to Henry. And Matilda is also crowned even before she's married. She's crowned Queen of the Romans at Mainz on the 25th of July 1110. They give her a party. Yeah, so she gets the crown, she gets the party before she even gets married.

7:56So that's not a bad deal for an eight-year-old. Well, it is. It's a terrible deal, but they do give her a party. And look, everyone wants to call in the caterpillar cake. Other cakes are available. but it's still not ideal if she's going to have to marry. Das Henry Fumpf. Yes, she does become queen very young but she gets so much experience while she's in Germany. She's trained to rule from a young age which puts her in good stead for the future. Henry and Matilda are married in 11, 14 just before she turns 12. Wow! They can't even wait until she's 12. Yeah, so the problematic marriage taxon continues.

8:35if you engage at eight it's a long time before that klaxon is going to stop ringing yeah i need new batteries for the klaxon yeah you're gonna matilda is finally crowned holy roman empress imperatrix romanorum in 11 17 so they're crowned not by the pope by the archbishop of braga and therefore this isn't quite a legitimate ceremony either but matilda takes this on fully and like well no i'm empress now that's going to be my title that's what i'm going to But is she like 12 at this point, like 14 or something? She's probably like 15, I think, at this point. She's suddenly demoted in 1125. Oh, what?

9:12What happens to her? You know, she's been ruling Italy, she's the empress, and then suddenly, nope. Because Henry V dies, Heinrich passes away. Oh, das Henry V ist der... Kaput. Das ist kaput. Henry V, oh no. So he just dies, but she's left unprotected? Yeah, because she's 23, she's a widow. They have no children. They've got no kids. But she decides to go back to England in 1126, and she does not go back alone. She decides to take back some of the jewels with her. So she takes two of Henry's crowns. There's another reason that she's needed back home. Her dad, King Henry. King Henry II. He's lost his heir.

9:52I mean, it's a huge dynastic catastrophe. So November 1120, the English royal court's been in France because they possess Normandy at this point, so they've got control over both of those areas. Now, Henry and his son William are meant to be sailing back on separate ships. William on the white ship, which was captained by Thomas Fitzstephen, and his father had captained the ship that actually brought William the Conqueror over in the first place. Ah, so it's a nepo hire. Yes. Now, as is typical, Dad sets off first, but William and the nobles decide to have a bit of a party before they get on the ship, and Fitz Stephen claimed that despite the delay caused by their drinking that he would still be able to race past and overtake Henry's ship.

10:37So the sailors leave at night and go into a stretch of water that's filled with submerged rocks. So, yes, the rock rips the hole, ship sinks and all but one of the 300 passengers die, which is a butcher from Rouen. So we only have one butcher's word. Let me tell you, it was not me. They were also drunk. So you didn't drink. No, no, no, no, no, no. I did not. I was not the one who bought the booze. So Matilda returning to England, kind of handy, because suddenly here's an heir. Yeah. But a woman. Yeah, how do they feel about that? Not unknown for women to rule in Europe at this point. But they've not had it in England before, certainly not in the Kingdom of England.

11:23Henry decides to get married again, just in case. But he does make plans. So he does ask the bishops and magnates of England to swear oaths three times to acknowledge Matilda as queen if he dies. Henry's not done with the marrying yet, is he? Of course. Well, she's only young, right? She's 24. 24. But four and 20, as Jane Rostin would say. She's almost as finster, but not quite. So he marries her off again. Okay. Again, inappropriate aged husband. Oh, what is he, like 80 or something? Other way around. Oh, no, he's like seven. He's a teenager, so she's the cougar this time. How old's the new hubby?

12:01So Geoffrey's only 15 when he gets married to Matilda. And the aged gap there is what? 11 years. So, you know, we're getting into another problematic marriage claxon there. She's not impressed, right? No, she's not. Who's Geoffrey? Not of Monmouth. That's the only Geoffrey I know, guys. That's a good medieval name. Thank you. This is Geoffrey Plantagenet, right? Oh, Plantagenet. So, I know them. So he is Count of Anjou. So Anjou's a central county in France at this point. But yeah, Matilda's not happy. He's socially inferior because he's only a count. Remember, she's just been married to the Holy Roman Emperor.

12:35So she's got a teenager and a count. It's quite a big step down. A bit embarrassing. Yeah. And does he just come over to England and just is living with her? No, she goes over to Anjou. She has to go to Anjou, I see. So she has to go and live there. Poor Matilda, so far, has gone from child bride to unwilling babysitter, her own teenage husband. and she has a baby and that's healthy second child but it's very dangerous yes she does think she's going to die she makes all her funeral arrangements and everything and you know sorts out a will effectively because yeah she thinks this pregnancy is going to have killed her but son number one is another henry sure why not it ain't broke don't fix it son number two the problematic one is jeffrey and they go on to have a third son william as well So that's it.

13:24Three beautiful, healthy boys. But yeah, pregnancy number two is problematic. OK, so Dad so far has been ruling her love life. He's married her off twice. But crucially, in 1135, meddling Dad passes away in 1135. The King of England is dead and all those oaths have been sworn. Three oaths, a triple lock. And you know how reliable bishops are in history. If they agree something, those bishops never let you down. So the next ruler of England, Cariad, is... Well, I imagine they're trying to stop it being Matilda. Yeah. Do they want it to go to her son? Are they trying to do it that way? I mean, that would make more sense, but no.

13:59No, they just bring in some random. They always bring in some random. Who is it? Do you want to talk us through it, Debbie? Yes, yeah. So Matilda is literally beaten to the throne by her cousin, Stephen. Oh, Stephen. Steve, shall we call him Steve? I've heard of Stephen. Stephen of Loire. He is crowned on the 22nd of December. So Henry dies on the 1st of December. Stephen is crowned on the 22nd so literally that is a quick party arrangement it's even like the same age as her you know they have a cousin similar age and your families are like well Stephen got 5A stars in his UCSC's Matilda Stephen's going to Oxford like Stephen's actually become King of England yeah poor Matilda I mean it does help talking of meddling bishops Stephen's brother is the Bishop of Winchester which is a big very handy but Matilda when we're talking about pregnancies she has concerns with this third pregnancy and perhaps doesn't travel quite as quickly due to the risk.

14:55So we have the double whammy here of brotherly nepotism and a man taking a woman's job while she's on maternity leave. It's the absolute 21st century. Something's never changed, right? Oh, something's never changed. Poor Matilda. Poor Matilda. So, OK, let's hear about Stevie B, the throne thief. That's his hip-hop name. King Stephen, Stephen of Blois. Who is he? Yeah. so he's about 10 years older than matilda yeah yeah depending if we go with the 1092 birthday he is the third son of king henry ii sister adela so there is a yeah the family relationship there he's a favorite of henry ii he grows up in the english court because his mom sent him there thinking it'd be more you know sophisticated than they learn so he's well known by the nobles which Puts him in good stead when he does nip across the channel.

15:46He's been hanging out with the lads and the men's clubs. Yeah, I get you. And he's married to? Matilda. Yes, he is. Heiress to the county of Boulogne. So Stephen is the king. Matilda gives birth, survives the childbirth, thankfully. To William, yeah. And now she looks across the channel and goes, hang on a second, that's my throne. That's mine. Should have been me. Yeah, okay. So what does she do next? She sails over with an army and says, that is my bloody throne. I know. Get out my throne, Stephen. Yeah, I think it's time now for the anarchy. So would we call this a civil war? Yeah, I think 12th century civil war.

16:22The lesser known of the civil war at the moment. Perhaps. But Matilda, you know, she spent that time in Normandy. They focus on taking that first, think that's the way forward. But as we say, we get to around 1138, 1139. she's like hang on now i need to focus on taking england yeah several of the english barons including her half-brother robert of gloucester who comes in very handy renounce their oaths to stephen matilda's uncle david the king of scotland also causes problem up in the north 1139 she does apply for the pope to try and support her claim but he's not interested he doesn't reply to a how do you apply to the pope you just fill in a form it really sounded like she applied for a job Yeah, but no luck there.

17:05But she decides to sail for England anyway in September 1139. Unfortunately, her stepmother, Adeliza, who's at Arendelle, says, oh, come here, I'll support you. Arendelle's a very lovely town. Very nice day out. Got a great castle. Lovely castle. Lovely antique shops. Good cafes. Yeah, I've been to the castle. So, Gabby, talk us through the war then, this brutal anarchy, this civil war. So once Matilda's got to Arundel, enjoyed the castle, had a few scenic walks, makes her way over to Bristol, off to the West Country, because her half-brother Robert, Duke of Gloucester, is there. So he's got people on side for her.

17:40So they decide to start battling. This civil war actually doesn't get off to a great start. They hit a stalemate pretty quickly because the barons are interested in bits of land as opposed to actually who's on the throne. You know what, barons are always interested in land. People should just come with land and then give that to the barons if they want to get the throne. There are very few positive barons in history. There are very few. This kind of carries on for about two years. In February 1141, have a breakthrough. Battle of Lincoln. Stephen is captured. So Matilda has Stephen in chains. And he's imprisoned at Bristol Castle.

18:16Wow. And she now is the queen, yes? Yes? No, the barons don't back it, right? Come on! Nope. Nope. Absolutely. She's not there yet. So we have this little period where she is arranging to get herself crowned in London, in Westminster, of course. So she starts minting some coins, has Lady of the English stamped on the coins as like a precursor to becoming Queen. And she proceeds to London to be crowned, but the Londoners reject her. They will not let her in. But Cariad told me at the beginning of the episode that she was very popular. I've obviously remembered that completely incorrectly. That when...

18:55I'm sure I remember him saying that Stephen was not as popular and the people cheered Matilda. Queen Matilda, Stephen's wife, is popular. Oh, maybe I've made some of Matilda. The other Matilda. That may be where Aykroyd's coming from. It's very easy to mix in Matildas. Empress Matilda's also made a few poor political choices, so she won't give London the special privileges that they've always held. She's trying to get money from them. They're just like, you're not coming in, love. Don't annoy the Londoners, mate. Don't annoy them. Yeah, so we've seen that she's had all this political skill, but it just doesn't pay off here.

19:33It must have been a humiliating moment, right? The rightful queen who has won militarily, who has captured the rightful. Yeah, she should, by right. She should, by right. Come sailing to Westminster. And yet the people of London are like, get out, love. You're not around here. And she just goes home? Yeah, what happens? no so she flees back to the west country and you know where she's safe and you know tries to negotiate with matilda so we've got the battle of the matildas now going on because stephen's still imprisoned so we have the siege of winchester in september 1141 but empress matilda doesn't come out of this very well either she's forced to flee when queen matilda rocks up with her armies yet again.

20:13This Queen Matilda's hot on her heels, isn't she? Powerful woman and using her political strength and idea. And unfortunately Winchester goes very badly because Robert of Gloucester, Empress Matilda's half-brother, is captured. So now we have the negotiations of Matilda being like, give me back Stephen, Matilda, give me back Robert, Stephen, Robert, Stephen, Robert. Get out of the pub! This is like Pat and Peggy all over again yeah very equally matched but different sides of the square but basically the same person yeah she's what steven for roger gloucester yeah and steven is released and then goes back on the throne yeah straight back on that throne and then we get an even bigger disaster gabby battle of oxford yeah so this is 1142 so empress matilda is again forced to flee and this is really her last rallying cry in terms of what she gets up to at this moment in time Stephen besieges the city they are sieged for three months and eventually she is forced to escape she escapes wearing a white cloak to disguise her amongst the snow as she sneaks out the gate wow that's Game of Thrones it's sort of, it's kind of camouflage right it's sort of sneaky, so she sneaks out the back door, hides in the snow rides to safety, so she's not captured does she go back to Europe at this point?

21:35I mean, in the movie, Escaping in the Snow, that would be the beginning of the comeback, right? But in terms of the history books... Yeah, unfortunately not. So she does try to rally a couple more times, but she's almost, she's lost her... Yeah, she lost it, babes. It's gone. Moment's gone. Yeah, and I mean, Stephen's had himself crowned for a second time to reassert his authority, rarely sought in the wounds. Not king once, but king twice, Londoners. King Stephen II. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yep. If you remember her older son, Henry. Yep. So he does try and invade in 1147. In the name of his mum?

22:11In the name of his mum. Oh, that's so adorable. But he does this without any money, without Matilda's knowledge. That's a classic teenager, isn't it? Yeah, you know. And then he comes back two years later, 1149. And that's a failure as well, because the attack pretty much disintegrates as soon as he lands. So he doesn't have the best of luck. Matilda transferred her claim over to him. and he does these little hurries over the next few years but it doesn't really get anywhere. Okay. Until... I was going to say because he becomes Henry II at some point and he's the start of the Plantagenus, right?

22:46So, yeah, when does he... So Stephen and Henry make the Treaty of Winchester, agree that Henry will give advice to Stephen whilst he's still ruling. Okay. On how to rule. Henry is named as heir. This is mad because her heir then becomes king anyway. so Stephen Basie just wanted he just wanted the throne for a bit he wasn't bothered about his dynasty yeah his dynasty starting it was just like no I just want to go at this job but then I'm going to give it to your son he just didn't want Matilda to have it yeah well that's interesting isn't it right is there something to that is Cariad right it just doesn't want a woman on the throne yeah yeah I mean that is potentially part of it in terms of you know Matilda goes over what we what you expect to see of women at this point we don't expect to see a woman ruling in England.

23:33But there is the slight issue as well. They don't like Geoffrey of Anjou. They don't like Matilda's husband. They're worried about foreign influence. If she becomes queen, like what's his rule going to be? Is she going to like rule in her own right? So they're trying to like bypass that. But then they install his son, who must be of the same lineage. But he's still a man, Carriott. He's a man, he's a man. And that's much more acceptable to them. King Stephen died in October 1154. Henry II becomes the king, so Matilda's son on the throne. Yeah. And Matilda gets to be what? Queen mum? Yeah, I mean, she is a bit of a...

24:09Is she sort of the Kris Jenner here? Is she kind of a mummager? Yeah, I mean, she's got three sons to try and keep in line a bit. And yeah, absolutely, she rises from the ashes and is really involved. So she looks after Normandy pretty much full time. We've got letters from the time that show that she was very politically astute. She does get involved. She's very well respected. So, for example, Henry decides to try and invade Ireland in 1155 and Matilda warns him against it. And then that doesn't go ahead at that moment in time. He does try later after she's died. But she still brings all her experience to the fort.

24:42So Matilda dies in 1167, aged about 65. She does well. And she dies in Rouen in Normandy. Yeah, and she's very at the Abbey of Bec, which is somewhere where she spent a lot of her life. It was where she gave birth to her second son and it's a place that's really important to her. So Normandy is her life, really. But I think she's content with that because it's somewhere she still has power. Yeah, she does end up in power, but not as high as maybe she would have hoped for. Yeah, and Geoffrey's long dead by this point as well, her husband Geoffrey, so she kind of just goes it all. And Henry II is the first Plantagenet king, is that right?

25:22So she starts a dynasty. Yes, yeah. And a really good dynasty in terms of the name of the mission. Yeah, yeah, the Plantagenets. All the way up to Richard III, yeah. The Nuance Window!

25:38OK, time now for The Nuance Window. This is the part of the show where Cariad and I quietly try to remember all the five Matildas and three Henrys that we've mentioned, while Dr Gabby takes to the battlefield to tell us something that we need to know about Empress Matilda and medieval queenship. So my stopwatch is ready. You've got two minutes. Take it away, Dr Gabby. So I want to talk about medieval queens as co-rulers because I think there's this idea that medieval queens are just there to give birth to children and that's it. And maybe they're quite pious, maybe they focus on what we call soft power.

26:08But actually these are women who can rule in their own right, so to speak. They are very powerful, they can share power with the king. And Matilda does this really well with Geoffrey in terms of sharing power and sharing her rights. They work very well together as a couple. but going beyond Matilda we see this again fantastically with Eleanor of Aquitaine she brings her power from Aquitaine as Duchess and shares that with Henry so I think we need to move beyond the idea that it's always the king that's giving and sharing power it's women who can actually bring a lot to the marriage bring a lot to rulership through a different set of skills whether that's diplomacy and soft skills patronage mediating with the bishops when they're being a bit naughty women are very capable of exercising power they do do it on a regular basis and it's not just agency it's not just something that's soft directly with matilda we don't see her leading an army at the front of it but we do see women leading armies in this period as well so i think there's much more to be said about queens being able to actually directly rule not all power is vested in one man it's shared with his mum in the case of Matilda it's shared with his wife it can be shared with his daughters or you know sometimes with other men but you know with governors and regents and so forth as well so I think there's a lot more to medieval queens than maybe we think they're not just there to give birth to children they do quite well thank you so much Gabby fascinating kind of yeah amazing absolutely amazing listener if you want more medieval queens with Dr Gabby you can check out our episode on Eleanor Aquitaine featuring Cariad's ostentatious castmate Rachel Paris.

27:54For more Cariad obviously we've got lots of episodes with you but Agrippina the Younger and Mary Wollstonecraft are two of my faves. And for more argumentative English royals there's always our episode on the causes of the British Civil Wars which we've now discovered is the second English Civil War but that's very confusing so we'll just pretend let's call it the anarchy is a whole other thing. I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests in History Corner we had the fantastic Dr Gabrielle Story Thank you, Gabby. Thank you, Greg and Cariad. Well done for not throwing any chairs around.