Epic of Gilgamesh: myths and heroes in ancient Mesopotamia

6:55Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Yeah.

6:56Marjolein Robertson:Is that right?

6:57Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:That's about right, yeah. But we probably go a little later with our first recording of the actual story.

7:02Greg Jenner:Yeah, so we don't actually know how old this story itself is because it has these oral roots that we have hints of in the language and in other references. So it was probably recited, for example, in the courts of kings, including the kings of Ur around 2100, 2000 BCE, but it's probably older than that. And then some of the earliest tablets, written kind of records of versions of this story come from around that time period, the third millennium BCE or the 2000s BCE. And then there's a standard version. There's an old Babylonian version, and then there's a kind of standard Babylonian version, which is the one that gets copied over and over and over and over again, that comes from around probably 1100 BCE, written by a scholar named Sin Leki Unini.

7:46Greg Jenner:He named in a later literary catalog, so we're not too sure to what degree we can call him the author. Does he just establish the most popular version? This raises fun in the nerdy sense questions about authorship in ancient Mesopotamia, where it's more like people are links in a chain in the life story of a story. The tale itself, the story itself is more important than the author, as well as the kind of divine origins, the perceived divine origins of everything that gets written down, all knowledge, wisdom and literature.

8:18Marjolein Robertson:Is that like the Homeric amalgamation of storytellers? They're like, Homer wrote this. Or it's lots of stories gathered up and recited over the years.

8:27Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Absolutely. Yeah, so the story of the... Sorry, the story of... You put the idea in my head now. The story of Gilgamesh is possibly 5 ,000, 6 ,000 years old, but our earliest records are about 4 ,000. And I think we probably should say, this is important actually, Gilgamesh was not always the name of the character.

8:42Marjolein Robertson:What?

8:42Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Do you want to guess what his original name was?

8:49Marjolein Robertson:Stephen.

8:50Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Stephen. Stephen, King of Uruk. Oh my. King of Uruk.

8:54Marjolein Robertson:It wasn't Gilgamesh.

8:56Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:No. Woody? What was his name? It was Bilgamesh. Bilgamesh.

9:00Greg Jenner:Yes.

9:00Marjolein Robertson:No, that's funnier than Stephen.

9:04Greg Jenner:Gilgamesh is basically a variation of like the signs used to write Bilgamesh. And there are around five Sumerian poems that tell distinct stories about Bilgamesh, but they're not strung together as one narrative until the later Akkadian or Babylonian version that we talked about.

9:20Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Oh, it's adorable. Bilgamesh, he just sounds like a sort of like a slightly disappointing brother. Yeah, he does. You know, there's Bilgamesh and Wilgamesh and Gilgamesh, the French cousin. And, you know, there's a whole family of them. And, of course, there's Phil Gomesh who sang In the Air Tonight.

9:34Marjolein Robertson:Yeah, and Lady Gomesh, the little one. Like Smurfette.

9:38Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:The boring question you probably get asked a lot is, is Gilgamesh a real guy who then gets turned into a literary folk hero? Or is this pure speculation, pure fantasy?

9:47Greg Jenner:Nobody really knows the answer to that. He's referenced in what we would consider a semi-historical document, which we call it the Sumerian King List, Basically a list of kings in what is now southern Iraq, what we would call Sumer. But it begins with these mythical primordial kings like Alulim who ruled for 30 ,000 years or Atana who ruled for 400 years. So we know that these are probably not real people or maybe they are based on real people, but these are not their real reigns. And Gilgamesh has referenced on this having ruled for 126 years, which maybe if it's lunar months is potentially doable.

10:27Greg Jenner:Oh, really? Possibly also not. There are real kings on the list, though, that we know existed that are corroborated from other sources like King Sargon, who ruled for a couple of decades around 2300 BCE. He's referenced. We know him from other documents and there are a whole bunch like that. So is he a literary character who moved into the history books or is he a historical figure who took on legendary proportions? That's interesting.

10:54Marjolein Robertson:I remember looking at the list and some kings last for 3 ,000 years, some seven.

10:58Greg Jenner:Yeah. And then I was like, I said changing qualifications.

11:04Marjolein Robertson:But I was like, could it have been that 3 ,000 years was a family name that then got listed as one royal member? That's a really interesting possibility. Thank you.

11:13Greg Jenner:Yeah. Because it's such a formulaic thing and each king is, and one queen actually named Kubau, is given a number of years that they reign for. It's probably years, but I think the impossible lengths speak a little bit to this ideology of kingship that they're trying to establish in the same document saying, look how old kingship, the existence of a ruler like this is. And if something is old, it's obviously important and legitimate in ancient Mesopotamia. They really revered their ancient history. So I think these impossible reigns feed into that ideology. And then with that setup, they can go on to list the real kings who ruled for seven years or 50 years.

11:54Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:So Gilgamesh maybe is real. He certainly becomes a model for what a king should be. Is that fair?

11:59Greg Jenner:Absolutely. There are kings that model themselves on him, like Shulgi, who rules around 2100 BCE and who even claims to have the same mom as Gilgamesh.

12:08Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:That can't happen. If Gilgamesh ruled 126 years, you can't have the same mum as the next person. No, that would be...

12:16Marjolein Robertson:She has found a way to defeat menopause. I want what she's having. Yeah, exactly. Those pills.

12:25Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Okay, so Gilgamesh... I'm the oestrogen. Yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah. So Gilgamesh, he's sort of King Arthur-y, but maybe realish. Okay, we're sort of in that sort of territory. Mary-Lane, Hercules in Greek myth is half mortal, half god. Yes. Gilgamesh, he's slightly more complicated. He's two-thirds god, one-third human, which feels weirder somehow. I don't know why. The ratio feels off.

12:46Marjolein Robertson:That's polyamorous parenting? Oh! How would that happen? How could it be thirds of a creation? Maybe you're right. Is that like a sewn into Zeus's thigh kind of situation?

12:59Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:That's a good question. Yeah, Moody, how do you get a one-third mortal, two gods, two point, two, yeah, how do you do 0.66 god? I think you do that because in the background of the Gilgamesh epic, there is this deity called Ea, who's the god of wisdom.

13:14Greg Jenner:He's quite a mischievous god. He's never really front and center. He's kind of like interwoven to the story. The number that represents him is two thirds of 60. Forgetting what that number is now. 15? Is that right? I don't know.

13:27Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Two thirds? Yeah. 40, 40 something? I don't know. I'm not a mathematician.

13:31Greg Jenner:I don't remember the number itself, I just remember the ratio. And that that might be what's built into Gilgamesh here as a reference to Eya, the mischievous god of wisdom. Oh, okay. Possibly. This is harking back.

13:42Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:So he's, yeah, okay.

13:43Greg Jenner:Is he meant to be the father so that... No, so Ninsun, the mother of Gilgamesh, is the goddess. That's the divine bit. Oh, okay. And it's a mortal dad.

13:54Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Oh, so godly mom, mortal dad.

13:56Marjolein Robertson:And then somehow Aya pops into the mix. Yeah, yeah. But makes him only one third god.

14:01Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Yeah, I mean that's... What? Sorry. It's all right.

14:05Marjolein Robertson:Math is my weakest point.

14:07Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:I think we can all agree none of us are particularly good on the maths.

14:10Marjolein Robertson:Two gods and one mortal makes one third god.

14:14Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:I mean the obvious question, Mary Lane, if you could have a godly body part, what would you choose? If you could be one third god or two thirds god, what would you go for?

14:22Marjolein Robertson:Oh, two thirds god. but like I would go for we have a goddess in Shatton called Simadir the mother of the sea I'd go for her so I could swim and breathe with the seals

14:33Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:So you'd go kind of mermaid you'd want sort of fishy body

14:37Marjolein Robertson:Yeah, top half fish

14:38Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Why not?

14:41Marjolein Robertson:Just a fish head They're going to have eyes on either side

14:46Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:The one thing that we can see as a divine physical attribute Gilgamesh has is height How tall is our king Gilgamesh, Bilgamesh?

14:54Marjolein Robertson:Well, I always feel like when they want to make themselves grand-oise, if that's the word and how you pronounce it in French.

15:01Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Sorry, you're saying grandiose there?

15:02Marjolein Robertson:No, I'm saying grand-oise as in very large and grand. Oh, I like it. They want to make themselves super tall. But also, I feel like back then they were just shorter anyway. So I think he went for the lofty height of 5 '11".

15:17Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:5 '11"? Yeah. Like a giant among men.

15:20Marjolein Robertson:Yeah, back then, surely would be.

15:22Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:If you go by the Shetland Diet of Picks, they're all tiny. Okay, Moody, how tall is Gilgamesh, according to the story?

15:28Greg Jenner:So he is nine feet tall in his thumb. Wow. Yeah. And in one translation by Sophus Hell, which is a gorgeous translation, he's 18 feet tall, which would be more of an inconvenience, probably, than anything else.

15:41Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:I know people want tall men on Tinder, but, like, nine feet's too tall. You can't buy him any clothes for Christmas. Yeah. I mean, the shoe size alone, come on.

15:49Marjolein Robertson:What, nine foot or 11 foot?

15:52Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Or 18, you said?

15:53Marjolein Robertson:18. 18? So they're like, let's double it. No, no, no.

15:57Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:By the time we hit nine, we might as well double it. 18 feet. OK, so he's basically as big as a bus.

16:01Marjolein Robertson:So when you see those statues of them from back in the day, they're like, oh no, that's just a scale.

16:06Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:The life-size Gilgamesh. So our main character is two-thirds divine. He has a minor name change from Bilgamesh to Gilgamesh. He is adjusting his palace doorways to 18 feet, possibly. Moody, how does our story of Gilgamesh begin? Do we meet him in adulthood? Do we meet him as a king?

16:22Greg Jenner:We do. He's the tyrannical king of Uruk. He violates brides on their wedding nights. He exhausts the men and boys by forcing them to build a humongous wall, which is real, an archaeological wall, and play violent sports. And finally, the women beg the gods and goddesses to create a match or an equal for Gilgamesh to challenge him and just calm this guy down, really. Right. Is it an opponent or a friend they're trying to create? So the word can be translated as equal or match, but there's a lovely children's version of this. I don't know how you write a children's version of the horrifying tale, where it's basically like he's lonely and miserable, and so he needs a friend.

17:03Greg Jenner:Yeah, so who knows?

17:05Marjolein Robertson:So I studied this at university, and the version I learned was he's lonely and needs a friend, which makes me question what source I used. But I'll tell you this, when I did my course on Romans, I used to use Rotten Romans. Did you? A Horrible Histories book? Yes. And my professor said, how did you know that? Because I used to come out with facts that the professors didn't know and I'd have to be like, quote, I don't know.

17:28Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Very dearie.

17:28Marjolein Robertson:And you've seen my references.

17:30Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:OK, so he needs a friend or he needs an equal to sort of match him in the ring. Who is created or who is sent down to match or fight or play with Gilgamesh?

17:40Greg Jenner:So the gods create Enkidu from clay and divine blood. There's a really beautiful description. He's born in silence. In other words, not with the cries of childbirth. He's at first a wild man. He's described as being very hairy and almost animal-like. And he lives among the animals, the gazelles. And he causes grief to hunters because he's constantly foiling their traps and rescuing the animals. Yeah. So Gilgamesh learns about this when the hunters complain, effectively. He learns about Enkidu from the complaints.

18:08Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:So he's an animal rights activist. He's going along sabotaging traps and things.

18:13Greg Jenner:Okay.

18:13Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:And Gilgamesh is like, this guy's ruining my hunting. Okay, I'm going to go sort him out. Okay. How do you think tyrannical Gilgamesh addresses this new threat?

18:22Marjolein Robertson:This is the one time I think I'll get this bit right. This is the one thing I remember from the story, which take from that what you will. They get a really attractive lady. They do. Yes. They cover her nice smelling oils. and they're like, show him why he wants to enter society. And she seduces him and Enki-Doo is like, I'd rather be with humans than animals. And thus ends my knowledge.

18:53Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Beautifully put and suitable for Radio 4, so well done. Moody, I mean, Mary Lane did a very beautiful, elegant description. It's a bit more Judy Cooper novel, isn't it? It's a bit more sort of racy than that. It's not love. It's sort of romping.

19:08Marjolein Robertson:Absolutely, yeah. But they're not married. No.

19:13Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:So who is the woman who is sent along?

19:15Greg Jenner:Yeah, so Gilgamesh sends a woman called Shamchat to seduce Enkidu, effectively. She's a temple worker, maybe a sex worker, a priestess of Ishtar. We're not really sure how to translate the word that's used to describe her, Ishtar being the goddess of love and war. And they have sex for seven days and seven nights, possibly more. After which he becomes civilized and the animals actually reject him after this. No way. Yeah. So they're just like, no, we can smell that you've changed. Oh my God.

19:49Marjolein Robertson:What? Yeah, so you respond on actually. Does that have any kind of similarities to the Garden of Eden story and Adam and Eve living in harmony of nature and then getting this knowledge and then being outcast from the garden itself?

20:00Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:It's an interesting question. I've never thought of that.

20:02Marjolein Robertson:Yeah, it is sort of similar, isn't it? It is.

20:04Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:A man who lives with nature and then a woman comes along and ruins it.

20:07Marjolein Robertson:I'm sorry. Giving the best seven nights ever.

20:10Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:I was going to say ruins it or vastly improves his life, let's be honest. And then Gilgamesh sort of shows up.

20:16Greg Jenner:Yeah, or Enkidu sort of shows up to Uruk. Oh, he's the other way around, is he? Yeah, yeah. So Enkidu's told that Gilgamesh is kind of demanding this right to sleep with brides on their wedding night and they meet on the threshold of one of these brides' houses and start wrestling. The verb is itzabtu. They take hold of her. They seize each other, which is the same phrase used later when they embrace. And it's also a phrase used for marriage in other sources. Oh, really? Seize someone in marriage, which is very romantic. And they turn out to be equally matched. They kiss and make friends. And Gilgamesh caresses Enkidu like a woman.

20:53Greg Jenner:There's some really interesting imagery being used and quite direct, I would say.

20:58Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Okay, so the obvious question there, you say match. We've had this idea of Enkidu being sent down to be a match for him. But it sounds like there's an almost more than romantic, almost platonic love, but there's also like an attraction maybe?

21:11Greg Jenner:Yeah, I think there's definitely a romantic love. And they tell us this with a lot of language, like he's going to love him like a bride. They caress each other, they kiss. Later in the story, it gets reprised in different ways. So I think matches, maybe it's, I don't know if it was deliberately vague, but I think our translation is nicely vague because it covers all the bases, really, of what their relationship takes on.

21:32Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:It's quite modern, the polyamory here, isn't it? Because we've got, you know, Gilgamesh sending along a lady to seduce his future boyfriend. It's quite open.

21:41Greg Jenner:Yeah.

21:42Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:I mean, this feels like a love between two men.

21:46Greg Jenner:Yeah, I think it absolutely is, even if kind of earlier translators were reticent to say that. The Victorians were like, they're just good friends. Yes, exactly. They were just flatmates.

21:55Marjolein Robertson:They're just flatmates. They just lived together as friends.

21:57Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:They're just bros, okay? They're just bros and they just like watching rugby.

22:00Marjolein Robertson:Actually, a beautiful story of love.

22:03Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Moody, could we hear some of this beautiful Arcadian poetry then?

22:25Greg Jenner:That's beautiful. It's a really beautiful language.

22:27Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:It is really beautiful. And in English then, would you mind translating that for us?

22:32Greg Jenner:Yes. So, as Gilgamesh was relating the dream, Enkidu was sitting before the temple woman. The two of them were making love together. He forgot the wild where he was born. For seven days and seven nights, Enkidu was erect and he coupled with shamchat. More literally, he poured out with shamchat. Right. Yes. Okay. This is pretty spicy stuff. Yeah, it's quite graphic. They did not mince their words. They wanted it to be quite clear what was happening. Very clear what's happening.

23:00Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Okay, seven days and seven nights of being erect. Well done for him.

23:07Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:So we have that sort of beautiful poetry and we have Gilgamesh meeting his match in Enkidu. So what is the first adventure they go on? And what spurs the adventure? Why do they need to go on a quest?

23:18Greg Jenner:So we have this scene where Enkidu is feeling sad I'm keeping in mind that lots of bits are missing from the epic. We're not 100 % sure why. And to cheer him up, Gilgamesh decides they need to make a name. He needs to make a name for himself. But Enkidu is not so keen. They go on a quest, effectively, to kill the guardian of the cedar forest, Khumbaba. So these forests are in what is now Lebanon, and devastatingly less than 1 % of the original cedar forest remains. and real kings did go into these forests and get timber to build their palaces, to build their thrones, etc. So that is their first side quest.

23:54Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:The first side quest is let's go kill a forest guardian. Yes. To cheer you because your friend's feeling sad. What do we do when your friend is sad? Let's go kill some sort of god.

24:03Marjolein Robertson:Wow. It's like we've been too loving. Let's balance that out. Could that be the forest that Anki-Dew was estranged from or is it a different forest?

24:12Greg Jenner:It's a different one. This one they have to travel to and it takes them quite a while to get there. although they cover huge distances in a matter of days.

24:19Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Well, he's 18 foot tall. He's got a very long stride pattern.

24:21Marjolein Robertson:Is Enkidu as tall as Gilgamesh?

24:23Greg Jenner:Well, I mean, he is described as his equal, but they don't give his proportions. They just say he is big and dazzling and all these other things.

24:31Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Big and dazzling. Yes. That's a great Tinder profile. Hello, Enkidu, big, dazzling. Open to anything. Okay, so they're going off to go and cut down a famous tree.

24:43Greg Jenner:Yes.

24:44Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Moody, what is Humbaba's physical vibe? What's he look like?

24:48Greg Jenner:He's terrifying. So he's quite dragon. He is a mix of things. That's spot on. There's fire that comes from his lips. From an earlier Sumerian version of this exact same story, they write, His pugnacious mouth is a dragon's maw. His face is a lion's grimace. His chest is like a raging flood. No one dare approach his brow, which devours the reed beds. So during and after the battle, Enkidu and Gilgamesh are not sure why they've done it, why they've taken on this monster and killed him. It's really, it's weirdly reflective and almost regretful and sensitive. So in the battle, they're going like, why are we doing this?

25:24Greg Jenner:Yeah. I don't know. Exactly. And then they do it anyway, even though they're having these moments of reflection along the way, which is kind of unexpected for an epic dragon battle. Humbaba pleads for mercy. Gilgamesh refuses. And afterwards, Enkidu questions why they've done this. Why have they gone and destroyed the guardian of the forest and cut down so many of the trees? So it's a really interesting scene.

25:45Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:I feel for Enkidu. He's made his first friend and his first friend is a bad influence.

25:50Greg Jenner:Yeah.

25:50Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Dragging him on these stupid quests. He just wants to hang out in the forest.

25:53Greg Jenner:I know.

25:54Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Oh, OK. So Enkidu and Gilgamesh primarily has killed an important forest guardian. One of the gods. I mean, is he a god? Is he of that level? Is he created by the gods in Baba?

26:04Greg Jenner:I think his name is written with a defined determinative. I don't know if he's a god, but he's definitely not a mortal, an easy to kill figure. He's quite a...

26:13Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Okay, so he's important, right? He's defending the forest. What do you think are the repercussions for Gilgamesh having committed this crime?

26:19Marjolein Robertson:I just feel like Gilgamesh has shown no remorse so far that I just don't see him showing remorse now. Also, I feel like Gilgamesh, if he's real or not, has had a real hand in writing his tail. So I'm like, Gilgamesh did something bad, but he's still great.

26:35Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Oh, you think he authors his own quest narrative? For sure. Oh, OK. And you think he's going, no, put that I was really tall. Yeah. 18 feet, 18.

26:45Marjolein Robertson:Make me tall, make me older, make my name start with a G. I defeat the forest monster. I don't know, do they fall out? Does Enki do fall out of Gilgamesh?

26:53Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:That's an interesting answer.

26:54Marjolein Robertson:I don't want them to break up, though.

26:56Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Well, yeah.

26:56Marjolein Robertson:I want Gilgamesh to grow and learn and go to therapy, like I was promised, but maybe they have to break up.

27:02Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Ah, well, that's how rom-coms work. So is it a rom-com, Moody? What happens next?

27:06Greg Jenner:Not quite, although there is a third party who enters the scene, who is quite a powerful one. So after the fight, the goddess Ishtar, who's again the goddess of love and war violence.

27:19Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Those two things don't seem like the same remit.

27:22Greg Jenner:No, she's a very volatile goddess. Sure. So yeah, she takes the same pleasure in lovemaking and murder, I guess. Yeah, she's an interesting figure.

27:32Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Sure.

27:33Greg Jenner:And she sees Gilgamesh and falls in love and proposes marriage. But Gilgamesh rejects her, listing all her dead or otherwise diminished former lovers, one of whom gets turned into like an earwig or something like that. And she gets pretty angry and calls on her father, Anu, the sky god, to send down the bull of heaven, which is the constellation Taurus, to kill Gilgamesh. That's me.

27:58Marjolein Robertson:I'm Taurus.

27:59Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Are you? Yeah. Okay, well, you might not like what happens next in this story then. Why? Well, because the bull of heaven is sent down to kill Gilgamesh. To kill Gilgamesh. And Gilgamesh, he's not being punished for slaughtering the innocent forest guardian. He's being punished for rejecting a sex god. I feel like he's learned nothing. But he's going to fight now a celestial bull. Mary-Lane, how would you go about defeating a celestial bull?

28:23Marjolein Robertson:You take it to a celestial abattoir in the heavens around killing time. Yeah. Humane gun on the head.

28:29Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Okay. Spoken like a true farmer.

28:31Marjolein Robertson:Yeah.

28:31Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Yeah.

28:31Marjolein Robertson:So it's a good old bolt.

28:34Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:into the skull. I don't know if they've got the old bolt gun back then. I mean, Moody, can you give us the gory details of the goring?

28:41Greg Jenner:Yes, so they work together essentially because the bull of heaven is quite a destructive creature and as he approaches Uruk, everything he does essentially ends up killing huge amounts of people. Every time he breathes, a huge gulf opens up in the ground and swallows people up, etc. From memory, Enkidu grabs him and then Gilgamesh stabs him in the head between the horns.

29:04Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:So bolt gun's pretty accurate then.

29:06Greg Jenner:Yeah, just a sword in this one or a blade of some kind. Okay. That'd be a very good one. They cut out the heart? Yes, they cut out the heart. They offer it to Anu, the sky god, and then they throw its penis at Ishtar.

29:25Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:I mean, that feels like a very childish move.

29:28Greg Jenner:Yeah, yeah. That's quite the move.

29:32Marjolein Robertson:And she's the goddess of love and desire and stuff. Yeah.

29:36Greg Jenner:Does that have an effect on her? You know, I'm trying to remember the scene, but I think there is like a worship scene of this penis in the temple to some degree where she gathers temple worshippers and they're like, sorry, penis.

29:52Marjolein Robertson:I just remind you of Aphrodite's conception. Yes. When she's born from the actual testes of Kronos.

29:57Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:That's right, yeah.

29:57Marjolein Robertson:But then this is very much not her being born from it, but having it thrown at her.

30:02Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:But this bull had been sent down by Anu because Ishtar had been rejected. And then they kill the bull, hand the heart back to Anu and go, there you go. That's what happens to your bull. And meanwhile, chuck a bull's penis at the woman who proposed marriage. And now it's very, very petty. It is. There's no growth here emotionally, is there?

30:19Marjolein Robertson:Definitely not. It takes a while for that to happen. So I think I was right. He doesn't learn anything.

30:23Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:He learns nothing. Okay.

30:24Marjolein Robertson:But to be honest, I suppose here he's just defending himself from a bull that is attacking him.

30:29Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:But he did really shame Ishtar for that to happen. He did. And throwing the penis is not a very grown up move. Come on. Let's all be adults here. So then what happens to Gilgamesh and Enkidu?

30:40Greg Jenner:So the gods are pretty angry. I mean, they've killed the whole constellation, which is bad. They sentence Enkidu to death. And he actually dreams of being in the underworld.

30:50Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:So why not Gilgamesh? Yeah!

30:52Greg Jenner:I know.

30:53Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Because Enkidu's just like the guy who's been dragged along.

30:55Greg Jenner:Yeah, he's sort of like, Gilgamesh is sort of like that typical, like entitled guy that just never has to face consequences for anything he does. But he's about to face the ultimate consequence in a way because Enkidu does die. He dreams that he's in the underworld and he dies. And Gilgamesh is utterly grief-stricken. Right. To the point where he won't even let them take the body away. And there's all this imagery of him mourning. and some of it compares him to like a lioness. So there's like a woman mourning her cubs, I mean a female lion mourning her cubs. So it's such a loss, he won't let them take the body away until a maggot crawls out of Enkidu's nose and he's finally like, okay, yes, you are dead and I have to let go.

31:37Greg Jenner:And he arranges this huge funeral and lists tons of gifts given in Enkidu's memory.

31:44Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Wow. So a very powerful scene. So Gilgamesh has been punished by having the one thing he loves taken from him. Mary Lane, what do you think Gilgamesh, a grieving Gilgamesh, does after the funeral?

31:55Marjolein Robertson:I mean, I still don't think he's learned anything.

31:57Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:You don't think he's grown from this?

31:59Marjolein Robertson:No.

31:59Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Okay.

32:00Marjolein Robertson:I think he wants revenge.

32:03Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Oh, so you think he's going to go John Wick?

32:05Marjolein Robertson:Would he go after Anu?

32:06Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Wow.

32:07Marjolein Robertson:That would be a power move. I mean, I wouldn't put it past this guy.

32:13Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Okay, so Mary Lane thinks that it's sort of revenge mission.

32:15Marjolein Robertson:I mean, to be honest, if he did go for a revenge mission, That would probably be the most coherent structural journey thing he's done so far in the story. So maybe he doesn't. But coherently, he'd go for revenge.

32:26Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Okay. Interesting.

32:27Greg Jenner:I mean, you're right that there's no growth in that he then, instead of being like, I should be less horrible and calm down, he becomes really anxious about death. And he embarks on this new quest to attain immortality. So it's quite a self-involved, anxious reaction.

32:45Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:He turns into a tech billionaire. He's like, I don't want to die. I'm going to live forever.

32:49Greg Jenner:I'm going to download my consciousness.

32:50Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:I'm going to get my son to give me his blood so I can live forever. Okay, so he goes on a quest for immortality.

32:58Greg Jenner:Yes, and he seeks out the wisdom from one of the sole survivors of the Great Flood, the only immortal living man. There is an immortal living woman alongside him that doesn't really get mentioned, unfortunately. She's just his wife.

33:14Marjolein Robertson:And bird.

33:17Greg Jenner:Pretty much. So he goes in search of a man called Utenapishti, who is in an earlier version of the flood story called Atrahasis, a name that means he is very wise from the word watrum, which means huge or exceeding, and chassasu, which means to understand. So he's huge of understanding. And Utenapishti is his name in this story.

33:39Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:So his new name is Utenapishti, but he used to be Atrahasis in the older myths. Exactly. Okay. It's all coming back to us. The flood myths we might know vaguely from Noah and the book of Genesis. The obvious question, I suppose, is that book just ripping off the Gilgamesh narrative or are they both sort of speaking of similar events or is there a kind of literary connection?

34:01Greg Jenner:Yeah, I mean, I know there's a literary connection between the Atrahasis, earlier Atrahasis myth, and there is also a Sumerian flood story that's even earlier, and the tablet in this Gilgamesh epic, which is tablet 11, that reprises this whole story. And it tells us that, you know, in broad brushstrokes, the gods forgot basically to build death into human DNA. And so population just explodes. Yeah, and it's just too loud. And they're like, we can't sleep. We got to get rid of these people. So Enlil tries. He sends down famines and plagues. But Eya, well, he's called Enki in this earlier one. But in this story, he's Eya.

34:40Greg Jenner:Again, the mischievous god of wisdom who we've already talked about. He thwarts all these attempts. So they decide to send down a deluge that will wipe out all life on Earth. And they make all the gods and goddesses swear an oath that they will not tell anybody about this. They will not. So Eya finds a workaround in that he, instead of telling Atrochasis in the old myth or Utena Pishti in this one directly, he's talking to a wall, which is sort of how I feel when I'm talking to my children. And so it's through the wall that this man hears a warning that this is to come and he builds a boat and fills it with the seed of all life.

35:15Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:He's the lone survivor of the flood. And because his software doesn't have death built in, he's just living forever with his wife.

35:22Greg Jenner:Yeah, and Gilgamesh is like, he must know how to live forever, so I'm going to go find him so that I don't have to suffer the way Enkidu did.

35:51Marjolein Robertson:wasting budget on the wrong audience. It's why LinkedIn ads generates the highest B2B return on ad spend of major ad networks. Spend$250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get$250 credit for the next one. Just go to linkedin.com slash broadcast. That's linkedin.com slash broadcast. Terms and conditions apply.

36:11Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:This is not the future we were promised. Like, how about that for a tagline for the show?

36:16Marjolein Robertson:From the BBC, this is The Interface, the show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world.

36:24Greg Jenner:This isn't about quarterly earnings or about tech reviews. It's about what technology is actually doing to your work and your politics, your everyday life.

36:34Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:And all the bizarre ways people are using the internet.

36:37Greg Jenner:Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

36:45Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Okay, so the flood myth is really important. One person is saved. which Gilgamesh is desperately trying to sort of get the secret of knowledge. Does he sink or swim in his quest to live forever?

36:55Greg Jenner:Yeah, I mean, it's quite a quest. He has to go through, you know, he basically has to journey beyond the edge of the known world. He goes to Mount Mashu, the Twin Mountains, which is where the sun rises and sets, which is guarded by these half scorpion, half human guardians. Then he has to, which who take one look at him and they're like, you look terrible, dude, like we'll just let you through. No way. Yeah. You look exhausted.

37:18Marjolein Robertson:Oh, terrible as in like he's broken man. Yeah, exactly. Oh, really?

37:21Greg Jenner:Yes, yeah. They're like, you're not going to put up a fight. Just go ahead.

37:26Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:They feel sorry for him.

37:27Marjolein Robertson:Yeah, effectively.

37:28Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:That's kind of embarrassing, actually.

37:30Marjolein Robertson:Like going to a nightclub and then like, you don't like, you pose a problem here.

37:33Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Yeah, yeah. Just come in. It's fine. Yeah, you just sit in the corner and be sad.

37:38Marjolein Robertson:Here's maybe the dumbest question I'll ask all time because you said the sun both rises and sets there. Yeah. Is it a real mountain that we know of geographically?

37:46Greg Jenner:We think it might be the Zagros Mountains. Oh, really? Sort of bounding kind of the heartland of what we call ancient Mesopotamia. But, you know, and there are expressions like when someone dies, they go to the mountain and the netherworld, underworld may begin in the mountains.

38:03Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:So it's kind of this like unknown region that makes its way into mythology and all sorts of interesting ways. So he doesn't have to fight the scorpion men because they just sort of look at him and go, you look depressed. You look like you do with the night out.

38:17Greg Jenner:And then it doesn't sort of get better. He then has to walk through a pitch black tunnel. I can't remember if it's 12 hours or 12 double hours. And then he exits onto this, you know, fantastical, supernatural world where the trees are studded with gemstones. Oh, wow. And he reaches the sea and speaks to an innkeeper named Shiduri, who also says, wow, you look like you're in a bad way.

38:41Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:I love that there are pubs in the Gemstone Forest. It's great. It's just nice to know that there are pubs everywhere.

38:46Marjolein Robertson:Not to be stereotypical about it, but this is the man's equivalent to if I was to go out without makeup on and other people are like, wow, Marilyn, you look really ill. You look so ill. What's wrong with your face? I'm like, just having a covered in foundation.

39:01Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Okay, so he speaks to the innkeeper called Shidori.

39:04Greg Jenner:Shidori, yeah. And she directs him to what are called the waters of death that you have to cross with a specific ferryman called Urshanabi, I think is his name, to reach Utena Pishni.

39:15Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Okay, so that's kind of river stick stuff, right? So people who know the Greek myth are kind of going, I've heard this before. So these myths are sort of interfolded and they keep echoing each other. But this is a much older myth than the Greek ones, I suppose.

39:26Greg Jenner:Yes, yeah, I would say. I mean, I don't know when the Greek ones were forever. They're later, they're later. It's definitely, yeah.

39:30Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Okay, so he's crossing the waters of death. That sounds scary. All that to be immortal. It sounds like a north, it's quite a palaver, Mary-Elaine. I mean would you would you bother

39:40Marjolein Robertson:to live forever yeah no okay well I don't know if you could go on that journey and then you'd have forever to think about it I mean it makes me live forever about Enkidu which I find really strange because he's so sad by his friends dying he's like I don't want to meet my friend on the next plane of existence or under the mountains where you think we go next I want to live forever without my best friend that's true

40:00Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:yeah that's true

40:01Marjolein Robertson:but then to go on a magical quest like that it's all I've always wanted you know when you read Lord of the Rings I'm not bothered

40:08Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:I'm alright at home Is that pertinence? Yeah quite happy on the sofa

40:12Marjolein Robertson:I'd love a big old quest to be honest

40:13Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:No I'll just watch Netflix It's fine

40:15Marjolein Robertson:It feels like when you go out in Bairns and we work on the sheep and then the sheepdog would invariably run away and you spend the rest of the day looking for the sheepdog but try not to tell mum that the dog ran away Is that a quest or is that just not trying

40:25Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:to get in trouble?

40:27Marjolein Robertson:Same thing Same thing

40:29Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Okay So having crossed the waters of death having gone through the gemstone forest walked through the tunnel of darkness, having, you know, not fought the scorpion men because they took pity on him. Does Gilgamesh get eternal life?

40:42Greg Jenner:No. Oh, what?

40:44Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Gutted.

40:45Greg Jenner:Almost, but not quite. So Uttanapishti basically takes one look at him and says, you're on the wrong quest. He recounts the whole flood story, explains that Gilgamesh can't and shouldn't follow this path to immortality. And he challenges Gilgamesh to stay awake for seven Nights, which is incidentally the sort of length of various elements of the flood story, the sex marathon. You know, seven days and seven nights is quite a big theme. This conquering sleep is sort of like conquering death and Gilgamesh fails. And I think he wakes up to seven loaves of bread that have been baked each day just to prove.

41:23Greg Jenner:Just seven breakfasts that he hasn't eaten.

41:25Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Yeah.

41:25Greg Jenner:Exactly. And so Uttanapishti explains that eternal life is not an individual survival. It's not the survival of Enkidu. It's not Gilgamesh. It's not even his own survival, but the survival of the whole community. And because life can end in an instant, you should make the most of what time that you do.

41:42Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:So this guy who's got huge wisdom, that's his name. His wisdom is the survival of community, of memory, of passing on is more important than your own life.

41:52Greg Jenner:Exactly.

41:53Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:And the tech billionaires are like, no, I want to live forever.

41:57Marjolein Robertson:That's really beautiful.

41:59Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Yeah. Will Gilgamesh see the beauty in there? You're worried he's not going to learn.

42:04Marjolein Robertson:Will he throw a willy at someone else?

42:07Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:It's a good point. Does our scarily tall, violent, sad king finally go, oh, I've been chasing the wrong thing all along? Nope. Gilgamesh, come on.

42:20Marjolein Robertson:I know. I think I don't remember it because I blocked it. You're just so disappointed in this guy. So relentless.

42:28Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:He's just so refusing to grow as a person.

42:31Greg Jenner:Exactly. Not yet. Not yet.

42:34Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Okay.

42:34Greg Jenner:So Uttanapishti is like, well, okay, fine. There is something called the plant of heartbeat, which you can find at the bottom of the bottom of the bottom of the ocean, basically. Right. In the Apsu, this sort of subterranean lake or freshwater source, which is a mythical source of kind of nourishment of groundwater, but also of wisdom in ancient Mesopotamia, because it's the home of Ea. Again, we keep coming back to Ea. Yeah. Or Enki in Sumerian. So there's this connection between water, wisdom, and memory, as we know. So Frozen 2.

43:08Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Yes. Yes. That famous documentary. Yes, Frozen 2. Into your nose. Exactly. Very important film in my life with a six-year-old daughter. Water has memory. Water has memory, yes.

43:18Marjolein Robertson:This story is like Babylonian. So it's very, very far away from the Hittites. they had versions of it though so it traveled because in Hattusli is that right? Hattusha, yeah Hattusha, sorry their capital there was the but beside it they called it like a liminal space where they had this like water going into this tunnel and they thought it was something to do with like a passage into another realm or that kind of wisdom is an interpretation in archaeology which is the classic we don't know ritual

43:49Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:could be ritual ritual

43:51Marjolein Robertson:that's where we washed our hands So strike that from my notes. That's lovely.

43:58Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Yes, because the Hittites would come along later, I suppose. The Hittites are...

44:01Greg Jenner:They're around the same time. And they are using cuneiform as well. So the myth does travel and they have versions of the Gilgamesh epic. Although I don't know when they date, when they're dated. They were like, he was three foot five.

44:15Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:And his name was Stephen. Okay, so the water and wisdom, the kind of plant of heartbeat. Gilgamesh knows where to get it. Does he pop on his scuba gear and go diving? He does, yeah.

44:27Greg Jenner:He ties these heavy stones to his feet and he goes and retrieves the plant of heartbeat. He does. And then he resurfaces and he takes a shower and a snake steals the plant of heartbeat.

44:37Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Oh, don't you hate it when that happens?

44:40Marjolein Robertson:It's like, yoink, goes straight over to Eden. It's like, yo, Eve. Let's try some of this apple.

44:46Greg Jenner:Where did the apple come from? I mean, snakes are quite, you know, They're good and bad in mythology of ancient Mesopotamia. Sure. So they're ambiguous.

44:54Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:It's a cheeky snake.

44:55Greg Jenner:It's a very cheeky snake.

44:56Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:It's a yoink moment, as Mary Lynn said. Okay, so the snake has stolen his eternal life.

45:00Greg Jenner:Yeah.

45:01Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Gutting.

45:02Greg Jenner:Yeah.

45:02Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Does Gilgamesh now get the memo and go, okay, I'll give up on the whole living forever thing?

45:06Marjolein Robertson:At long last. Hooray!

45:08Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Personal development.

45:10Marjolein Robertson:Yes. Is that personal development or...

45:12Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Just fatigue.

45:14Marjolein Robertson:I mean, everyone's like, man, you look terrible.

45:17Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:I feel like he should just, I don't know, join a book club. He just needs like, you know, just.

45:21Marjolein Robertson:I mean, maybe he did. And that's when he wrote this.

45:23Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:That's it.

45:24Marjolein Robertson:At the book club, they're like, the theme this week was longing. And he's like, and I wrote about myself. Another chapter about me.

45:33Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:OK, Moody, tell us about Gilgamesh's personal growth.

45:36Greg Jenner:Yeah, so he finally returns to Uruk. And we have this scene that reprises the very beginning of the myth where he's looking, he's surveying the city. And he seems far more aware now of what's at stake. He looks at the different elements that make up the city, civilization, human life, and sees that it's more important than his own ego and individual success. And he is wiser. He finally brings that wisdom back to Uruk and will ideally incorporate it into how he rules. And this kind of personal growth narrative has led some scholars to call it wisdom literature. But who knows exactly? It kind of has everything.

46:14Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:It's quite a beautiful, low key ending to a story that's involved scorpion men, magical ball penises, a seven day sex marathon, a snake stealing stuff out of a bath. Like we've had like real kind of wild stuff. And in the end, it's just one man going, oh, we should all die. That's what humans should experience.

46:31Greg Jenner:Yeah, that's part of it. But as a group, we can still live.

46:34Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Right, memory lives on as a community

46:36Marjolein Robertson:I would like to point out that he went through this adventure where he killed a special forest guardian, his best friend died killed a bull of heaven, offended so many gods, found this rare fruit that got stolen, troubled all these different people and it feels like when he got out of the city he just said, you know what guys, let's be peaceful and the women of the city were like this is what we said from day one the women were like we were always like let's be peaceful

47:04Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:yes it is like a celebrity being like I've been on a journey of acceptance and I've learned that I have faults and I accept those faults and it's like you are a dickhead YouTube apology video we have known for a long time you are I do remember the end bit

47:18Marjolein Robertson:of the story was that the secrets that he learns is to build structures that stand for all time have a lineage of offspring that carry on your bloodline and have great stories that are told forevermore.

47:33Greg Jenner:Yeah, so he writes his, you know, his quests down on a, I think it's a lapis lazuli tablet and he buries it somewhere in the wall and he says, someone will find this someday and remember me. And lo and behold, here we are remembering Gilgamesh.

47:48Marjolein Robertson:Because those walls of Uruk are still standing.

47:52Greg Jenner:They are, yeah. And they're like nine kilometers long and they're very thick and they're very real. I think archaeologists estimate 300 million bricks in this thing.

48:02Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:So he did it. Eternal life. He nailed it.

48:06Marjolein Robertson:Did he build those walls before or after the adventure? Because it sounded like before he was working the men and the boys to the bone.

48:11Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:I was going to say, yeah. So once again, has he learned? Yes, my lasting memory is this thing where I forced everyone to do slave labour. We should talk about how the story of Gilgamesh, the epic of Gilgamesh, was rediscovered in modern times. This is how the ancient world understood it. This is how it was passed down through their generations. But I guess we then received it much later on. Could you talk us through the modern text history?

48:35Greg Jenner:Yes. So the first Akkadian texts were found in 1849 by Austin Henry Laird in Nineveh in the Library of Ashurbanipal. And these were ones that were copied down by scribes. And obviously with the death of scribal training, no one copied them down anymore. So they just get buried. But there are strands of the story that may have survived into other forms of literature. So, for example, some have argued that Gilgamesh is in the Arabian Nights under a different name, Bulqiya. Some disagree with that. So, you know, take it with a grain of salt. And there's even an argument that the green man in the Qur 'an, Al-Khidr, who is this wise man who guards the sea and teaches knowledge, he might be Atra Khasis.

49:19Greg Jenner:So there are some elements that have survived. Once cuneiform was deciphered, parts of it got translated. And in the 1870s, a self-taught working class Londoner called George Smith, who was studying clay tablets at the British Museum. He was the first to translate the epic into English, producing a translation of this flood tablet, Tablet 11. That was quite an exciting discovery at the time.

49:41Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:And Mary-Elaine, George Smith, our working class self-taught Londoner, he was so thrilled to have, you know, produced this translation. How did he celebrate?

49:52Marjolein Robertson:Oh, did he do it Gilgamesh style?

49:55Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Or go on a killing spree?

49:56Marjolein Robertson:Oh, no, he didn't, like, have too much to drink, did he? He certainly let go of his inhibitions. Oh, no, did he just, like, an enki-do and get naked and, like, run through Covent Garden?

50:07Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:He literally did. No, I didn't. Really? Really? He ran naked through the, was it the British Museum? That's right, yeah. Stripped off his clothes and just ran screaming naked through, shouting, I did it!

50:17Marjolein Robertson:I did it! That might be the one I'd have got right this whole time and it was a total stab in the neck. He got naked and just ran through the museum.

50:25Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:That's what Victorians really were up to. You know, we think of them as prim and proper, but no, they're getting naked. They're running around celebrating.

50:30Greg Jenner:Translating tablets. That's amazing.

50:32Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Yeah. So George Smith celebrated naked, his translation in 1870 of Tablet 11. Since then, we have other translations that people can go and read. Which ones would you recommend?

50:42Greg Jenner:Yeah, so in English, there's a wonderful critical edition by Andrew George if you want to get really into the nitty gritty of the language. but I think the most beautiful translation I've read is by Sophus Hull. A very accessible translation with some wonderful essays as well. Fabulous. And there was a new scene discovered, is that right? Yes, from Tablet 5, about five or six years ago, maybe a bit longer.

51:02Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:So we're still finding bits of Gilgamesh's story?

51:03Greg Jenner:Yeah, I think it was the sex scene, actually. Was it? They filled some blanks in, yeah.

51:08Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Someone sent it.

51:09Greg Jenner:Seven days. Yeah.

51:12Marjolein Robertson:You find more of just the most gratuitous part of the story. It doesn't add any more plot or character development, And it just is real saucy. Was it by the original authors? That sounds like fanfic to me.

51:22Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Yeah, it does a bit. What else did they do? Well, that's amazing. OK, so that is the story of Gilgamesh, Marie-Hélène. You've studied it at university. You've studied it a second time. How do you feel about Gilgamesh now? You could put some of this into your next show, perhaps. Some of the storytelling tropes.

51:39Marjolein Robertson:Well, I do like it because I do like how... Because I remembered the end in the beginning. because I think it's a really sweet thing that the lesson in it is for like to carry on is you have these great deeds or these stories written about you or these structures like he's inadvertently done the things to have immortality because as the innkeeper no, Utnapishti Utnapishti said was like community community is what lasts if you have a strong community and they carry on the stories and it kind of falls in with that beautiful belief in like lots of like indigenous tribes in Turtle Island like North America where telling a story of how someone earned their name is telling their true character, which means they're never forgotten.

52:20Marjolein Robertson:So, I mean, we had a lot of laughs about Gilgamesh, but you don't forget him. And I like the idea that then thus telling stories, which is what I want to do, is like what stories can you tell to remember other people or other things that have happened?

52:34Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Beautiful.

52:35Marjolein Robertson:It's nice. It is nice. It's really nice. Well done us.

52:38Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Yeah. The Nuance Window!

52:45Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Time now for the nuance window. This is the part of the show where Mary-Elaine and I sit silently to contemplate our mortality for two minutes while Dr Moody regales us with something we need to know about the epic of Gilgamesh. My stopwatch is ready, so take it away, Dr Moody.

52:58Greg Jenner:The epic of Gilgamesh has meant and will mean different things to me throughout my life. It's about power, grief, community, death, love. But right now, as we watch one interconnected crisis after another unfold, I want to tell you what I think it could mean in this moment. Khumbaba was the guardian of the cedar forest, appointed by the god Enlil to keep the ancient cedars safe. He had the face of a raging lion, he breathed fire, his cry was a deluge. In ancient Mesopotamia, people sometimes used sheep entrails to predict the future. And one omen says that intestines shaped like Khumbaba's face foretell the arrival of a usurper king.

53:33Greg Jenner:Imagine the face of this monster, like the coiled intestines of a dying animal, slippery, bloody, palpitating. I used to wonder why create such a terrifying creature to guard trees. Like many of you, I bear witness daily to the destruction of a once thriving world, to line the pockets of a handful of people with already full pockets. It has helped me understand the mythology of Chumbaba. But the Gilgamesh who slayed Chumbaba and chopped down trees as tall as the sky was not the same broken man who clawed his way to Utenapishti, the oldest man in the world. He was looking for the key to eternal life, but he found instead a lesson in how to live.

54:09Greg Jenner:I think the crux of Utena Pishti's message is this. Instead of trying to live impossibly long lives, let us do more with the short time that we have. For Gilgamesh, this means acting as a shepherd to the people in his care, and by extension the places they rely on. When he returns to Uruk and surveys the city, he sees people's homes, the date orchards, the clay pits, and the temple which represent domestic life, agriculture, crafts, and religion. This is worth fighting for, he realizes. The survival of each successive generation confers immortality on the whole. Our well-being is tied to the well-being of those around us, and to the places that sustain us, to the waters that give us life, to the trees that give us air, the land that Khumbaba gave his life to guard.

54:52Greg Jenner:I think there is a timeless lesson in these 12 tablets and their unexpectedly flawed hero. Selfish, cowardly, violent, vulnerable, relentless, and eventually enlightened. What are the chances that this story has survived from its earliest oral tellings to a fragmentary translation over 4 ,000 years later? And what are the chances that it might contain just the call to survival, community and care that we need?

55:14Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Amazing. Beautiful.

55:16Greg Jenner:Thank you so much. Thank you.

55:17Marjolein Robertson:So nice. That's such a nice way to take a message, make it hopeful. I think that's what I need is hope. Yeah, I think so too. I hope so anyway.

55:26Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Yeah, absolutely. You definitely need more of the humanity and less of the monsters. So what do you know now?

55:37Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Well, it's time now for the So What Do You Know Now? This is our quickfire quiz for Mary-Elaine to see how much she has learned slash remembered second time around. How are you feeling, Mary-Elaine?

55:47Marjolein Robertson:Less confident than when I had my dissertation as for those spelling mistakes.

55:53Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:You've got some beautiful notes, some of them illustrated. There's some words too. It's mostly illustrations.

55:57Marjolein Robertson:I only did three pages this time.

55:59Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:But they're very dainty and delicate. Okay, thank you. We've got ten questions for you. Ten. Ten. Jeez Louise. Here we go. Tested in Gilgamesh. Okay, question one. In the epic, what proportion of Gilgamesh is human to God?

56:13Marjolein Robertson:I remember this. It's one third of... Well, I wrote here that he's one third God, even though there's two gods and one human involved.

56:22Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Other way around. One third human, two thirds God. But I'll let you have it because you remember the ratio.

56:25Marjolein Robertson:Okay, thank you. That's very kind of you, Greg.

56:27Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Question two. What event tames the wild man Enkidu?

56:35Marjolein Robertson:His lover for seven days.

56:37Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Yeah, absolutely. A week-long sex marathon. You said it. Question three. Ishtar was the goddess of two things. Can you name what they were?

56:47Marjolein Robertson:Love.

56:48Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Yeah. And?

56:49Marjolein Robertson:Violence.

56:51Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:The two things that somehow go together, apparently.

56:54Marjolein Robertson:Well, it's like they're embraced, isn't it?

56:55Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Yes. She does sound quite scary. Dominate tricks. Maybe, maybe. Question four. Who is Humbaba and what happens to him?

57:06Marjolein Robertson:Humbaba is a garden in the forest, a serpent-like dragon-y creature, and he is killed by Gilgamesh while Enkidu is holding him dune.

57:13Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:That's right. Absolutely. Well remembered. Question five. How long does Gilgamesh wait before ending his mourning period for Enkidu?

57:20Marjolein Robertson:Oh, jeez Louise, they're so busy drawing a dead Enkidu. But they love us seven days.

57:24Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:That's right. It's always seven days, isn't it? The answer is well done. The maggot comes out of his nose and he's like, OK, time for a funeral. Question six. Do you remember who was Sin Lecui Unini and why is he important in our story?

57:38Marjolein Robertson:Lecui Unini?

57:39Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Yeah, Sin Lecui Unini.

57:41Marjolein Robertson:Sin Lecui Unini. Yeah. He's not in the story.

57:45Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:He gives us the story.

57:46Marjolein Robertson:Oh, he's the Homeric kind of author. Is he the author or is he an amalgamation of many people or folk people who carried the stories and went to court like, I've written this. Yeah, well done. Like that French author. That's right. Little Red Riding Hood.

57:58Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Yes, he gives us the official standard version. Is that right? OK, well done. Question seven. What was Gilgamesh's original Sumerian name?

58:08Marjolein Robertson:Bilgamesh.

58:09Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Bilgamesh. I love it. Question eight. Why does Gilgamesh seek out a man named Uta Napishti?

58:15Marjolein Robertson:Because he doesn't die. he's immortal and he wants to figure out how he's immortal and he's like, I just wasn't programmed that way, bro.

58:22Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:That's right. Question nine. What wisdom does Gilgamesh gain at the end of the epic story?

58:27Marjolein Robertson:That it's about living through communities as a whole. That immortality is about our communities continuing to live and thrive.

58:34Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Absolutely. And question ten. George Smith, the scholar who first translated the epic in English. Buzz, I know the answer. Notoriously did what at the British Museum?

58:44Marjolein Robertson:Race naked through in celebration.

58:47Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Absolutely, as we all should. Fantastic, Marie-Elaine. 10 out of 10 there, because you got the ratio right. So well done. A perfect score.

58:54Marjolein Robertson:Thank you. That makes up for my dissertation.

58:56Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:I was going to say, you get a first class degree. Congratulations.

59:00Marjolein Robertson:If you want, email me and I'll send you the dissertation and you're going to be disappointed. Be like my professors were.

59:07Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Well, I'm not disappointed. Moody, are you disappointed?

59:09Marjolein Robertson:Not at all. Good, see? Thank you.

59:12Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:Well, thank you so much, Marie-Elaine. Thank you so much, Dr. Moody. and listener. If you want more ancient history with Dr Moody check out our episodes on the Babylonians and the one on the history of Cuneiform which people loved. People really, really loved that episode. It's one of our most popular ever. That's amazing. It's lovely. For more epic myths we've got one on King Arthur of course and for more Mary Elaine we have the episode on Robert Bruce. Not Robert the Bruce. If you enjoyed the podcast please share the show with friends. Subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sounds to hear new episodes 28 days earlier than anywhere else.

59:41Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:If you're outside the UK you can listen at bbc.com or wherever you get the podcasts. And yeah, I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests in History Corner. We have the magnificent Dr Moody Al-Rashid from the University of Oxford. Thank you, Moody. Thank you for having me. Always a pleasure. And in Comedy Corner, we have the marvellous Marie-Elaine Robertson. Thank you, Marie-Elaine. Cheers very much. Thank you. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we delve into another dramatic historical epic. But for now, I'm off to go and grab a mate to help me beat up a tree. Bye.

1:00:39Marjolein Robertson:Hello, I'm Misha Glennie, the new presenter of In Our Time. If you enjoyed that episode about the epic of Gilgamesh, you might be interested in learning about another ancient work from Mesopotamia 4 ,000 years ago. It's the Code of Hammurabi, a great black pillar that's now in the Louvre, carved with 300 laws on anything from an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, to proving your innocence by swimming across the river Euphrates while weighed down with stones. And Gilgamesh gets a mention too. That's In Our Time on BBC Sounds.

1:01:19Dr Moudhy Al-Rashid:This is not the future we were promised. Like, how about that for a tagline for the show?

1:01:25Marjolein Robertson:From the BBC, this is The Interface, the show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world.

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