Jane Austen: the life of a Regency literary icon

24:32Because the moment you say Lady A, people are thinking, Duchess, Countess. Which lady was that? Yeah, exactly. Very Bridgerton. That's nice. Northanger Abbey. I tend to read it as quite funny, which I think maybe I'm wrong, but it's about a young woman who's read too many Gothic novels and then it sort of goes to visit her boyfriend's dad and she thinks he's a baddie and there's a sort of, there's a hysteria to it that's quite funny. Oh, yes, I think it's great. It's satirising Gothic fiction, basically. So you get all of the things that happen in Gothic fiction, like a spooky mansion, an evil villainous chap who might do something terrible to you.

25:09And then there's just Bafos the whole time when she realises that the spooky mansion is actually really clean and comfortable. There's this famous scene where she opens a spooky chest and she finds in it a laundry list. But there is this kind of serious point to it, which is that bad people exist in the real world. They do exist in this, what's supposed to be to read as the very familiar world of bath society and the marriage market. And there is real danger there for the heroine. So she's sort of fearing that her boyfriend's dad is sort of the evil villain. But, you know, maybe he is a bit. He is.

25:44He's a genuinely bad man. You don't want to hang around with him. But he's not a gothic villain. He's not a gothic villain. He's an everyday villain. He's a man. Is the heroine of that called Susan or I think it was called Catherine? She ends up being called Catherine. And what I love about Catherine, and this is one of Jane Austen's innovations, is that Catherine is so ordinary. She's even got slightly greasy hair. and in Jane Austen's novels ordinary girls start to feature as heroines because she takes the world of fiction and she mashes it up with the world of reality so everyone can start to see themselves in these stories Fabulous Jane Austen by this point had written a few things the thing that's a constant with Jane Austen when Ostentatious do their live shows it always ends with a happy ending does that mean she was drawing on happiness in her own life or is that simply the form that you had to do as a novelist?

26:35You've got to define happiness. All right. Because, you know... Marriage, marriage at the end. Yes, exactly. In the stories, the marriage plot unfolds. There's always a happy ending in that she gets together with... The heroine gets together with the hero and lives a comfortable life. There's also an element of happiness and completion in the fact that the heroine gets somewhere to live because nearly all of them have some kind of problem with their home. They've been chucked out of it. They've got no money. They've got no financial security. And it's just not clear whether Jane herself was, as generations have believed her to be, disappointed in love.

27:14I mean, because she was a spinster and because she died a spinster, people have thought, oh, well, she must have been, you know, kind of sad and dried up and lonely and screwed up. But she actually made decisions actively not to marry. She turned down many proposals. That's right. So we've got the first is an Irishman, Tom Lefroy. Well, he never actually proposes, does the tasty Tom Lafroy. He was a young law student from Dublin and Jane danced with him at quite a few balls. And then the reason that we think that there's proposals on the cards is because Jane writes a letter to her sister saying, I'm really looking forward to tonight.

27:53I think it's going to happen. I think he's going to make me an offer. And then in the next letter, she says, oh, no, when you read this, it will all be over. And you think, oh, her heart's been broken. But I think what Jane's actually doing in that letter to her sister is yet again spoofing contemporary romantic fiction that's all very mushy and it's about a heroine getting her heart broken. So I'm not convinced that Tom LaFroy did break Jane Austen's heart. So it was a holiday fling, perhaps. Heart. He was just fodder for comedy, I think. Aren't we all? Speak for yourself. All right, so she didn't marry, but she did nearly marry Sally.

28:32Do you know this story? No. All right, there was an engagement. Lucy, the gentleman in question, 1802, in sweeps, the wonderfully named... Mr Harris Big Wither. I know it's not funny to laugh at people's names, but that is a bit of a funny name. It's quite funny. That is hilarious. Harris Big Wither. Mr Harris Big Wither, that was never going to work. No, could you imagine... And he married the wedding-like disappointment of Mr Bigwither. And the front cover of Pride and Prejudice, you know, written by Jane Bigwither. It just doesn't work, does it? No. Come on. So tell me about Mr Harris Bigwither.

29:08Well, I mean, what is there to say, Lucy? It's a brief fling, let's put it that way. In fact, do you want to... Is he in Bath? Is she in Bath by 1802? Not quite yet in Bath, I don't think. She was visiting his sisters, who were good friends of her. Oh, OK. And he proposed and she said yes. And he came with a mansion and a fortune. They lived in this lovely house called Many Down Park, his family did. And she said yes until the next morning when she broke it off. She just couldn't go through with it. He was six years younger than her. He was quite physically unimpressive. And, of course, he had a silly name.

29:44I'm in there. And did she acknowledge to Cassandra that she just couldn't be called Mrs. Bigwood? No. How did she talk about it to Cassandra? It was a big drama. It was a big drama because the stakes were so high. Because as well as Jane getting a home for the rest of her life and a fortune. Everybody would get a home. Cassandra could come and stay. Exactly. And she was really good friends with his sisters. There was so much going for it. Except for the man himself. Fascinating. So what did she say about it? She didn't say anything. No, no. She just broke it off. The 24-hour cooling off period, she just went, yep, no, sorry, sorry.

30:18No. Just can't do it. Just can't do it. Sally, would you ever have turned down someone, because their surname was so silly. No, I think I could have got over Bigwither. I think so, yeah. I might not have changed my name. Sally Bigwither. Sally Bigwither. I mean, I'm in comedy. You know what, that would be... I would sell out for the rest of my life. Yeah. But I think there's not an accident in the timing of this because the night she breaks off the engagement, just before that, she'd made her first book deal. Do you think she had the hope, if I can, I will be able to support myself, I'm not going to need to be Mrs Bigwither?

30:52I do think that. There's no actual linked evidence for it, but it seems to me psychologically sound that she thought, maybe I can make my living in another way. And the woman who he did eventually marry gave him ten children. So if Jane had become Mrs. Harris Bigwither, there would have been no writing career. She would definitely have been producing babies, not books. Baby Bigwithers everywhere. Baby Bigwithers. And are there any descendants of Mr. Bigwithers? There must be. We must track them down. If you are related to Mr Harris Bigwither, please get in touch. Look what you could have won. Mr Harris Bigwither went on to have ten children and five of them were daughters who never married and I think that's because they looked at their mum married to their dad and thought, oh, I'm not going there.

31:41A very big wither. Was not withered. So it's a hinge moment and she never speaks of it again. How very discreet of her. Yes, she's a classy lady.

32:19From where are we going? How did life originate? Smallogies. Shorter, G-rated episodes of Allogies. Classroom safe, kid friendly. Smallogies. Subscribe now and never miss an episode. So the interesting thing for me, I think, is that Jane had a supportive family. She makes this big decision and her father goes along with it, her brother goes along with it, her sister goes along with it, everyone goes, okay. And they're great fans and advocates of her work and she's allowed to make that decision. It's extraordinary. Let's talk about her 20s, her late 20s, her early 30s. The family does move to Bath, which I think you alluded to, Sally, in 1801.

32:55Bath has been dining out on that ever since. Is it or is it not true that she hated Bath? There's quite a lot of evidence that you can build up to suggest that, no, she had a terrible time there. Really? OK. There's another school of thought, which is that the evidence is kind of hints and allusions. And is that sponsored by Bath tourism? but I mean in Bath we see influences in Persuasion and Northanger Abbey there are architectural and societal links we think to those novels there's sooty rain she talks about the glaring white stone in Bath so the weather of the place can't even be right and clearly in Northanger Abbey it's this kind of obstacle course full of pitfalls for the young enginnue so 1805 her father the hot priest lovely George died They're in Hampshire until 1805.

33:45They are. They're in... No, they've moved to Bath. In 1801, her father decides to move the family to Bath, basically because he knows he needs to get husbands for his daughters. There's nothing for them to live on after he's died. And that's the marriage market. That's the marriage market. And Jane is not really into this husband hunting thing and is no good at it. And then when he dies, the family begin... So this is Jane, her sister and her mum. They start a new life as poor relations. They've got no money. They have to live on handouts from Jane's brothers. One of the brothers says, I've got a plan.

34:15I've just got married. I'm a naval captain. I'm going to be away at sea. I'll rent a house for my mother, my sisters and my wife in Southampton. It turns out that Frank's new wife didn't want to live with her mother-in-law. Right. And this sort of fell apart as a plan and they couldn't afford the rent. And then Jane's other brother, Edward, the one who got adopted by the rich people, he comes up with a better plan because he owns a house back in Hampshire and he lets his mother and sisters live there without any rent for the rest of them. And this is Chawton. For the rest of their lives. What is the house, have I confused this with one of her books?

34:49Is there not a house where they go to stay with a cousin who owns a big house and he thinks if they're sitting tenants he's likely to get it? He does get it and then kicks them out. Oh, I think you're talking about the Stoning Abbey business. She did have lots of rich relatives kind of in the fringes of her family and she would go and stay with them. For a year. she would get her meals there. And there was lots of hanging around and hoping that somebody who was really rich would give a legacy. But the trouble is that the mother and the two sisters, they're just so low down the pecking order that they never get anything.

35:23It's amazing that Edward, this rich brother who's got a fortune, doesn't do anything better, sooner for his destitute female relations. Ah, men. So for the period between 1801 and 1804, we know very little about Austen's life because after her death, her sister Cassandra burned her letters. So something in those letters has been destroyed by a protective sister. And Sally, what scandal do you think might have been in those letters? I mean, we don't know what's in them, so feel free to go crazy with your imagination. Yeah, maybe it's some love affair. But I thought she burnt them after she died.

35:56She does, yeah. So she burnt some of them. Yeah, from that period. Does Cassandra think she's going to get married and she doesn't want her husband reading? Maybe. Maybe it's Cassandra's response that she's trying to hide. of all the love affairs because Cassandra was more sort of open to the boys in the boarding school, wasn't she, than Jane, as far as I know. Is that right? Have I made that up? Cassandra did get engaged herself. To Tom. Yeah, and then he died. Different Tom. He died because he didn't have any money so he joined the Navy. This is very good. He went to see us a chaplain and then he died of disease.

36:30He died of disease in the Caribbean. We don't know what's in those letters and it's such a specific period, such an interesting three-year period with the letters of Byrne. and you think, what is she protecting? So where is Tom at this point? Cassandra's... Dead. ...fidenzata, already dead. Dead. So Lucy, have you got any guesses on why that three-year period is censored later? I'm pretty confident why Cassandra burnt the letters. Oh, OK. I think it's because they contained horrible, rude, hurtful jokes. You can see, even in the letters that survive, she's very funny, but you wouldn't necessarily want the person she's being funny about to read that letter.

37:06Oh. I'll give you an example. A lady in the neighbourhood has a miscarriage, Mrs Hall, and Jane writes to Cassandra, poor Mrs Hall's lost her baby owing to a fright. I suppose she happened unawares to look at her husband. Oh, that's, I mean, that's, yeah, OK. It's funny, but it's in very poor taste, isn't it? That's a really sharp, OK, so you think perhaps they're a member of the family. It's sister chat. It's private sister chat. Private DMs. Private sister-ship. And we're just going to go in there, we're going to nuke those so that history doesn't know. And what had she said about their mother?

37:39What had she said about the mean brothers? I'm pretty sure that's why Cassandra destroyed them. Okay. So we do finally get sort of literary success for Jane. In 1811, Sense and Sensibility was published as the A-Lady. A-Lady publishes it. It sells well. She retains the copyright. That's good because she gets royalties. Then 1813, Pride and Prejudice. She sells the copyright. Yes. Lucy. Really silly move. Terrible error. So it was the publisher, John Murray, who got all of the cash from what turned out to be a big smash hit. So she just got paid once and that's it. No royalties ever. So one of the biggest novels of all time.

38:13Yeah. Ah, that's annoying. And then nothing published under her name until after her death. Emma was published before. Oh, it was Emma published, okay. And so was Mansfield Park. But not under her name. No, not under her name. No, you're right, sorry. So always a lady. Yeah. But her brother, which brother is this, was always quite happy to sort of say, my sister is a lady. Yes. She wrote that one. She had this slightly racy brother, Henry, who was involved in a bank scandal and who acted as a literary agent for her. OK. And he was a bit of a blabbermouth and he started showing off about his clever sister and so the secret gradually got out amongst their friends.

38:45Is that pride or is that him just sort of using it to pick up chicks? I think it was pride. I think that he... I've got a soft spot for Henry. OK. All right. OK. Fair enough. And so, you know, by this point, Jane is now just a professional writer. That is their job. That is what she's doing with her life. She's not marrying. She's turned down the big wither. Book writing, Sally. Book writing. She's committed to her art. Do you know the next novel? So we've had Pride and Prejudice, Sense and Sensibility, Northanger Abbey. Is the next one Persuasion? No, it's Mansfield Park, 1814. Again, about a poor relation, Fanny Price, who goes to live with a wealthier family.

39:21It feels familiar, Lucy. Yes. Again, it seems like it's the brother Edward who gets adopted by the rich folks, something of that situation is coming out in the story. I think people are really interested in this one now because of the possible critique of transatlantic slavery that's kind of hidden within it. The Bertram family have made their money in the new world. Yes, they have a plantation. Yeah, it's very distasteful. And the head of the family goes off and he visits this plantation and then he comes back again. And it's only poor little Fanny, who's shy as anything, who dares to ask him what's going on over there.

39:57Oh, OK. And there's this idea that Mansfield Park, this big grand house, is in fact corrupt. The people there are not good people. And like you were saying, it's Fanny who's the most humble character, who actually has the sort of moral purity and self-worth to clean the whole stable out, really, and make everybody behave better. Yeah, you're right. That's the moral middle classes, isn't it? Sort of saying, you've made your money in the most unethical way possible. So we have Emma, then published in 1815. That's your favourite novel of the sixth, Lucy. That's The Battle of Waterloo. It's a big year for British history and French history.

40:32It's about a rich young woman who's playing matchmaker. And Emma is not a likeable heroine for some people. I mean, you like her. That's why I like her. She is dislikable. She's very full of herself. When Jane Austen was writing this character, she said, I'm writing a character now who nobody else will like apart from me. Sally, where do you stand on the Emma debate? I like Emma. I like leading ladies with flaws. Yeah. I think it's important. And yes, exactly. So I really like Emma. And you love the way she feels shame. So when she shames Miss Bates, is it Miss Bates she shames at the picnic? She issues the guests at the picnic with a challenge.

41:12You have to say something witty and then something, or one witty thing or three dull things. And Miss Bates says, oh, well, you know, I'll say all the dull things at once. She said, no, but you must limit yourself to three at a time. and I sort of get how that could accidentally come out of your mouth in front of a crowd. I mean, I've been on stage and said, I was marched off stage by the late, great Sean Locke once for having made a joke, I won't say what it was because it shouldn't be repeated, a very funny but mean joke and in my memory, Sean Locke sort of marched down onto the stage, sort of got me by the collar, marched me outside.

41:49It was about 23. And it was up at the Edinburgh Festival. And in the courtyard went, we don't do that. We don't say that. You know, if you're a good comic, you can make a joke about anything. And so you don't make it at the expense of other people. What a great man. Very, very important lesson. Yeah. But I completely understand how that might happen. And then Mr Knightley comes over and says it was very poorly done or something. That was very poorly done, Emma. And she feels great, great shame. Yeah. Yeah. Bitch grows. She grows. She grows, but she's alive to that. She doesn't go, oh, what a prat.

42:24She doesn't think, oh, what a prat Mr Knightley is. The way people so often do now, they immediately go on the defensive. If somebody points out, holds up a mirror. Yeah, I love her too. Yeah, that's very interesting. We need to talk about Persuasion and obviously Sanditon because sadly Jane became very ill in 1815, 16, and she was writing Persuasion, and she never finished Sanditon, Lucy. Yes, a lot of people really love Persuasion. because they sort of graduate to it. It's often described as having an autumnal quality and that's because it's about having a second chance. The heroine thinks that she's never going to marry but then her old love comes back.

43:01What's really devastating about it is that all of this happens to her at the age of 28. Oh, my word. That's the point at which you're totally on the shelf in Jane Austen's England. Word. And then Sanditon, which never even gets finished. This is heartbreaking because it was... Jane really loved going on holiday to the seaside. This was considered to be a place of health and happiness for her and for all Georgians. And Sanditon is a seaside romance and she wrote it when she was really ill and in bed and in the little fragment that survives. It's written in her sort of pencil and you can tell that she's ill.

43:36But she's clearly imagining a world where she's healthy and happy and by the sea. She's never going to get there. That's very sad. She died on the 18th of July, 1817. She was only 41. It's really, you know, it's really tragic. She was buried at Winchester Cathedral, which suggests a level of prestige. It was because she had all of these clergymen relatives. Oh, really? She was pretty low down in lots of pecking orders. So it wasn't the fame, it wasn't the books, it was the family. It was the fact that she was kind of in the aristocracy of the Hampshire clergy. Oh, I see. She's local royalty. And she left everything to Cassandra.

44:10Yes, she did. Persuasion was published posthumously then, 1817. so straight, just after her death, the book comes out. Yes, her family just flogged everything. They said, OK, right, let's move on, sell the copyrights, we'll take the£500. And then Henry got the copyright back for Northanger Abbey. Yeah, and published it. OK. It's an extraordinary life, Sally. It's tragic in some ways, but really interesting the way that the family became the kind of keepers of the flame afterwards. Yes, yes. I don't know what to say, yes. No, sorry, I'm putting a lot of burden on you there. No, no, I'm finding it hard, straight after the death, to think of a joke immediately.

44:45Well, you don't have to. But, yeah, no, it is sad, isn't it? It is sad. But what amazing books. I think that, I mean, you know, as a historian, the thing I'm, I mean, I love her writing. I love it because it's funny. You know, maybe that's because I love funny things. But what's important to sort of get across, I think, is one could view Austen stories as sort of genteel bonnet fests with no hint of violence. There's no, the jeopardy is about poverty, but there's no, like, you know, crime. There's no murder. There's no Gothic element to them. There's a parody of the Gothic. But she's living through an era of tremendous historical turmoil.

45:20You've got the French Revolution, the anti-Catholic Gordon riots, the Napoleonic Wars, the Abolition of Slavery Act. We have the changing rising of the classes, the Industrial Revolution. We have huge turbulence. Britain nearly goes into sort of revolution a couple of times. But critics have accused her of writing small books in a big time. Lucy, fair? Well, I don't think it is. This is a traditional criticism and you can read them as sort of defences of the existing order because things get resolved at the end. And there's a lot of concern about who's going to act properly and look after the countryside and the community.

45:56But if you look for the details of the great changes of her time, they're there. They're just done in a feminine, domestic way. One example I like is that in Pride and Prejudice, the silly girls, Kitty and Lydia, they go into the town and they come home and they say, oh, we had a great day. We went to a hat shop and we saw a soldier being flogged and then we had tea. And they come home and they say this really shocking thing. They saw someone being flogged in the street of their local town. And a soldier. But because they're silly girls, it's used to express their character. They're too silly to see what's happening.

46:30So that's how the Napoleonic War is present in Jane Austen, in a subtle, feminine way. And her brother was in the Navy. Frank was in the Navy. Charles was in the Navy. Henry was temporarily in the army. So the Battle of Waterloo and the Battle of Trafalgar, these sort of landmark military naval moments of great jeopardy where France, the mortal enemy, might invade. Her brothers are fighting these wars. Yes, Frank was too late to turn up to the Battle of Trafalgar that he was really cheesed off about. He was cheesed down. What was he doing? He was doing something very important elsewhere. And I think that Nelson wrote him...

47:07Army-related? Yeah, watching his hair. I think Nelson wrote to Melissa saying, I'm so sorry you missed the battle, but you did good work anyway. Oh, no, that's gutting, isn't it? At the Millennium Party, my friend was in the toilet at the countdown for the Millennium. And so his great memory of the coming of the Millennium was just flushing, looking for some toilet paper. And you've already alluded to allusions to slavery, allusions to threat. We've got these slightly sinister, but we haven't necessarily got violence and turbulence in the stories. There were no battles happening. No. Are battles essential to great literature?

47:42I would argue not. No, no. I find it fascinating. Lucy was telling me just before we started recording that Winston Churchill said Jane Austen's books got him through the Second World War. Yeah. I mean, there's a deep comfort and optimism, isn't there? Yeah. But there we go. So Jane Austen, I think we're all admirers of Jane Austen. It is a sad life in some ways in that she died so young, but what an extraordinary work. And I'm quite pleased also that her family were there to support her and lift her up and then celebrate her afterwards. It's quite nice she didn't have to battle against her loved ones.

48:14And for our benefit. And I love her friendship with her sister. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's all you need, really, is a really close friend to send mean messages about people who annoy you too. The Nuance Window!

48:31Time now for The Nuance Window. This is where Sally and I sit quietly and sip tea in the drawing room for two minutes while Lucy sits at the Piano Forte to serenade us with something we need to know about Jane Austen. My stopwatch is ready. You have two minutes, Lucy. Take it away. A lot of people have got the idea that Jane Austen was some kind of little old lady living in a cottage in the countryside, producing masterpieces kind of by accident. And this is what her family want us to think, because it was socially inappropriate for her to be this kind of ambitious, professionally successful female writer.

49:08And when she was writing, she didn't have a proper study. She'd write on this wobbly little table in the corner of the drawing room, which had a squeaky door. And she would never get this fixed because when the door squeaked, she would know to hide away her paper and to get on with whatever it was that her family wanted her to do. So here, kind of in secret, she was producing her late great books, books, Emma and Mansfield Park and Persuasion. And to me, these are books with a really serious message, which is that it is so rubbish that women are expected to marry for money. So kind of in secret, she was in fact, writing the books that would blow the locks off the doors that were keeping women like her trapped in this subordinate position in society and in their families.

49:59And And that is why I think she's not just an important writer, but also because of the risks she took to become a writer, an important human being. I must say, this is my interpretation. And the great thing about Jane Austen is that she's such a rich artist. You can see what you want to see. You can make the case that she's a brilliant comedian. You can make the case that she's defending the social order and she's all about doing the conventional right thing. Or you can make the case, like I do, that she wouldn't have recognised herself as such, but that she was a feminist. I loved reading that, a letter she wrote to her sister, where she talks about going round the galleries in London looking for portraits of the characters in Pride and Prejudice.

50:45That, to me, is just so... Because that's sort of what I do preparing a part. I collect a load of... I collect a life and an image and, you know, smells and all of that. but the idea that these characters live on for us but they live on for her too and she's telling Cassandra I haven't been able to find a portrait of Lizzie and I'm sure that's because Mr Darcy is so proud of her he wouldn't want her portrait up in public but I found Jane, the very image of Jane wearing a yellow dress which confirms to me that yellow was Jane's favourite colour it's just fascinating to me that when you do something good they do carry, these characters do live on and they do live on with you, you know.

51:28Yeah. And I love that they lived on with her. So what do you know now?

51:37Well, it's time now for the So What Do You Know Now. This is our quickfire quiz for Sally. I think there's so many notes and I can't read any of them. My handwriting is just awful. Extensive notes. I'm counting eight, nine, ten, ten pages? Ten pages with a drawing. And drawings. I think that's very often. And the page before someone's written baby. That's a previous episode, don't worry. That's a previous episode, yeah. OK. OK, are you feeling confident, Sally? No. OK, ten questions. Here we go. Question one. How many brothers did Jane Austen have? Six. She did. She had six brothers. And two became clerics and two went into the Navy and one went into the Army.

52:13Very good. Oh, SWAT. Yeah. Look at this. I've been well taught. Look how good you are at teaching the pair of you. There you go. Actually, one of them, Henry, was both soldier and clergyman. What? The double. It's the dream. Question two. What was the name of Jane's beloved sister? Cassandra. Also the name of her mother. It was, absolutely. We haven't talked about her mother very much. I think you might need to get one in a minute because, you know, if you keep up this tempo. Question three. What nickname was given to Jane's supportive clergyman father, George, relating to his attractiveness? Oh, I'm thinking hot priest, but it wasn't hot priest, was it?

52:47That was my nickname for him. Famous hair. Think of... Famous hair, hot priest, George... Oh, I don't know. He was the handsome proctor. The handsome proctor. Yes. The hot priest is what we called him. So I'll give you half a mark because I think we threw you off the scent there. Handsome proctor. Question four. Which of Austen's six novels was written first, initially as an epistolary novel? I can't remember. I think it's Sensibility. It is. Well done. Very good. Yes. And she rewrote it later on to take out the letters. Question five. How long did Jane's engagement to Mr Harris Bigwither last?

53:22One day. Yeah, if that. I mean, an evening and a morning maybe. I don't know. An evening and a morning, yeah. Yeah, one day. Poor Mr Bigwither. Poor Harris. Because he's obviously quite something in the sack, right? Ten kids. He's, you know. She missed out. Question six. What name did Austen publish under pseudonymously? A Lady. A Lady. And that was a publishing error. It was Lady A. Lady A. Which was great for sales. It was good for sales. But her brother Henry was a blabbermouth. And I can't remember what his job was, but he kept letting slip. So the secret was out before too long. Question seven.

53:59What was the original title of Northang Abbey? A gothic parody. Susan. Susan. I love it. It's great. Question eight. What happened to the letters Austin wrote between 1801 and 1804 to her sister Cassandra? Cassandra burnt them. She did. And we think, I'm with Lucy on this. that it's because she was perhaps not as ladylike in what she wrote about friends and family. Some messy DMs, yeah. Messy DMs, yeah. Question nine, what was the name? Yeah, her tweet history. Yeah, I mean, that's it. We should have downloaded that, shouldn't we? If only. Question nine, what was the name of the Austin family farm that Jane grew up on?

54:33Cheese Down. Cheese Down, isn't it nice? Yeah, it's lovely. I know I've over-bucoliced it, but I just, I think it's lovely. This for, I mean, I would say nine and a half out of ten, but I am going to give you a bonus point because you've been so good. So this for 10 and a half out of 11, I think. What? Nine and a half out of 10. Steve's being a stickler. Yeah, quite right. 10 and a half out of 11. This for 10 and a half out of 10. OK, Sally, I believe in you. What novel was Austen working on when she died? Sanditon. It was Sanditon, which was turned into a TV series if people want to watch it.

55:03Excellent, Sally Phillips. A perfect 10 and a half out of 10. Amazing. Mathematical impossibility, but you found a way. Thank you very much. Well done, Sally. Thank you so much. Well, thank you for teaching me all about Jane Austen. Oh, well, we had a lovely time. I mean, you knew lots. And Lucy, thank you so much as well for joining us. Listeners, if you want more of Sally, check out our episode on fairy tales. It was an absolute treat. You invented your own fairy tale. Did I? You did. That was a... Yeah, you threw me with that, like, make up a fairy tale now. And you did. And it was incredible.

55:30It was really, really good. I think it lacked narrative structure. No, no, there was plenty. There was a three-act structure. It was great. Was it about a massive apple or something? I think it was, yeah. So go listen to that, because it's an absolute hoot. For more Literary Geniuses with Dr Lucy, seek out our episode on Agatha Christie, another formidable, brilliant writer. And if you long for Regency romance, come dating with us on our episode about Georgian courtship with lovely Cariad Lloyd. And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please share the show with your friends. Subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sounds in the UK to hear a new episode 28 days earlier than any other podcast app.

56:02I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests in History Corner. We have the wonderful Dr Lucy Worsley. Thank you so much, Lucy. A pleasure. Thank you. And in Comedy Corner we have the sensational Sally Phillips. Thank you, Sally. Thank you very, very much for having me. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we dust off another favourite from the Library of History. But for now I'm off to go and rummage in the loft through my old teenage comedy sketches and fingers crossed they'll be as funny as love and friendship. But I suspect they're mostly just crap. Bye!

56:34Your Zed to Me is a BBC Studios production for BBC Radio 4.

56:46Two months ago, I was just an ordinary mum. From BBC Radio 4, as part of Limelight, this is Mother Cover. Our system has identified you as a candidate for a position. See this woman here in the photo? She attends a mother and baby group at the town hall. Can I sit you? I'm Gwen, by the way. Liz, is she dangerous? Lives are at stake here, Gwen. What do you mean, lives? Gwen, what are you doing? I want out. I want out now. Oh my god, Liz, that tree, look out! Listen to the whole series right now. First, on BBC Sounds. What on earth is your mummy up to?

57:32Welcome to the podcast, Smologies. completely kid safe, classroom friendly, all ages and shorter versions of Ologies podcast classics. We ask super smart people the questions that are on all of our minds, even if they're a little silly. There's water on the moon? There's ice on the moon. Yes, yes. We answer the gross questions. Can snakes fart? And the big ones too. Where did we come from? Where are we going? How did life originate? Smallogies, shorter G-rated episodes of Ologies, classroom safe, kid friendly. Subscribe now and never miss an episode.