Lena Horne: racism and resilience in the Golden Age of Hollywood

25:29So she actually drives MGM to put their money in more liberal spaces. And for that, Lena Horne gets$350 a week, which is increased$100 a week every year. And it's really important to say that while that is more than 10 times what she got at the Cotton Club, actually Fred Astaire's signing rate with MGM was$1 ,500 a week. So although this was not small money, it was also not the equivalent of what the big stars were making. And Fred Astaire's contract is from the early 30s. So this is a decade later. Do we know what white women were making? Because obviously they were probably making less than Fred Astaire as well.

26:07Like where does her salary compare to other women? Well, if we use Hattie McDaniel as another black woman, Hattie McDaniel, who is already famous when she makes Gone with the Wind, makes$700 a week. But I do think that it's worth saying that what Lena Horne has is a permanent contract. So she's getting this every week. Whereas, for example, Fred Astaire was never on retainer with MGM. He did a higher cost contract, but for shorter times. But you're absolutely right. There is a wealth discrepancy in this. If you think, take the film Top Hat that Fred Astaire is in. he is paid I think it's four times the amount that Ginger Rogers is paid and she is paid in costumes partially so so there's the agenda component and then a black tax for want of a better way of putting it yeah so Lena Horne's debut MGM debut is a film called Panama Hattie yeah and she's playing herself Panama Hattie is an adaptation of a stage musical by Cole Porter And I think it's a really interesting insight into what MGM attempted to do with her.

27:06And it's kind of a bleak insight simultaneously. Apologies. But she is split between a portrayal of just a singer in a cafe and also performs a new song written specifically for the film called The Spring. And the Sping is this bizarre, exotic splurge of references to Cuba, to the Caribbean, more broadly to Southern America, to Latin culture. They deliberately immediately start to lean on the idea of her being slightly ethnically ambiguous. And this then feeds into sort of her wider marketing across film in general. But I think it's also really important to say that this is also a time where Black actors were sometimes listed as props and not as cast people in the paperwork at the studios.

27:57So the complexity of the ways in which they are conceptualizing race cannot be overstated. Can you give me an example of how they were listed as props? It's like starring, you know, Ted as the broom. like how does so they would produce these documents outlining the contents of the films this would include the list of scenes the number of songs who the cast were and then they would have a prop list where they would have table kettle six chairs and in one and louis armstrong yeah oh my gosh oh my like it was it it's a bleak fact but it is it's a really important nuance to understanding what it might have been like to be making a film for her at that time I mean, that's horrific, but also just absurd, isn't it?

28:42The idea he's not even a human in the cast list. He's just in there as furniture. I think when we talk about her race identity and weaponising her race identity, we also have to recognise that they started doing it right away. And whether we want to perceive that as mobilising light-skinned privilege or whatever, it is being set against this really bleak, dehumanising context for all black performers. And that brings us to an important point, actually. Almost immediately, Lena Horne's big break was somewhat soured because she was caught in the crossfire between two organisations, the Civil Rights Movement and then the film unions.

29:22And these are both organisations with noble intentions, and yet they are disagreeing, and Lena is sort of the battleground. How does that work? Yeah, absolutely. I think she gets caught in the middle of a lot of different political priorities during her sort of decade at MGM. The NAACP and a couple of other black unions were particularly invested in addressing representation in Hollywood at this point. And they saw Lena Horne as a tool, as an opportunity. They felt that she had an aesthetic, her visual appearance, her vocal style would appeal to the white executives. and they sort of saw her as a Trojan horse, if you like, to quote-unquote break the colour line and to get an actor who was not white into multiracial films.

30:12If there was a big red button that would just demolish the internet, I would smash that button with my forehead. From the BBC, this is The Interface, the show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world. This isn't about quarterly earnings or about tech reviews. It's about what technology is actually doing to your work, your politics, your everyday life. And all the bizarre ways people are using the internet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

30:47Her films that sort of have stood the test of time, I suppose, would be Stormy Weather and Cabin in the Sky. Those are the kind of classic early movies that you can still watch now, I guess. those are all black casts or predominantly black cast these are films with great stars in all the main roles so she's part of a black ensemble yeah and if you look at her filmography really those two films cabin in the sky which is an adaptation of a hit stage show and stormy weather which was an original film made by fox are really the highlights of her film career in the 40s and yeah as you say they are all black cast so it's important to say that everybody behind the camera was white and what happened there was they got the great and good of black performance into these films and created these amazing sort of bacchanals if you like celebrations in those films they are the only examples where Lena Horne has dialogue where she gets to interact with other people and she actually has character arcs after that she basically loses the opportunity to have a meaningful interaction with the plot of any musical film.

31:49And you said when we did our preparatory Zoom call, you said something quite shocking. She would sometimes not be allowed to stand too close to fellow actors so they could physically cut her out of movies. Yes, there's an amazing sequence. Desiree, your eyes went very wide there. Wow. Yeah, this is like before CGI. They were just literally like, we will just splice the film just in case. So they literally just had a sort of frame around her so they could, what, when they're playing it in the south? I recommend you watch the first five minutes of Till the Clouds Roll By from 1946. This is a biopic about the composer Jerome McCurn.

32:21And in it, they stage a sequence from the musical showboat. Oh, they cut together several scenes, actually. And that is one of the few scenes in which Lena Horne appears with a mass of white people. But what happens is every actor in that gets a freeze frame for two, five seconds and then is in a group. They briefly show Lena Horne and then she literally backs out of shot and then is not in the wide frame, wide angle group shots. So there was literal removal from physical action taking place. But she became what was really the fate of all black actors at the time, which is referred to as a feature actor.

32:57She would be given a song number, sometimes with some dance. It would be irrelevant to the plot. She wouldn't have often a named character. She would often be appearing as Lena Horne. And those scenes could just be... I mean... But she could just be cut. Those scenes could just be cut from the film. So, for example, she made a joke in the 80s about the fact that when she went to Texas for the first time, no one had ever seen her in the film she was in. The other thing I suppose we have to talk about in terms of racism or at least prejudice on set would be her hair and makeup, Desiree. Do you know what...

33:31I'm like, I know her hair and makeup was bad because it's not good now, so I can only imagine. We mentioned it very early on. You may recall Light Egyptian. Oh, my goodness. Do you know what that might refer to? I mean, a light Egyptian. I imagine that that was the makeup colour, skin tone that they were going for and not like the name of the perm they were using on the hair, but either way. What is light Egyptian and how does this, how was her hair and makeup sort of, in some ways, othering of her in other ways, sort of glamorising? In the 40s, the white press couldn't decide what her skin tone was, but one of the ways in which she was racialised is that they always refer to her skin colour.

34:13But in headlines, she was referred to as sepia, as copper, as chocolate. Like these are not the same shades of foundation to put it a horrible way. And I think there's a really important point about how she was lit and how she was represented. So yeah, you're right. The Max Factor, Max Space Factor, was working for MGM and was used to making bespoke foundation shades. So he made one called Platinum for Jean Harlow. and he makes light Egyptian for Lena Horne. But this is just one part of the reality of the hair and makeup environment for her. When she does her screen test, they only have the makeup for Bilbo Drangles-Robinson on hand.

34:52People who know what Bilbo Drangles-Robinson looks like know that he's a much darker skinned actor. And so she actually looked like she was in a minstrel show in her screen test. And that is actually what leads them to develop the Max Factor shade. But we also have the reality that the hairdressers union ban their members from touching her head. And so the head of hairdressing has to design all her styles himself, hired a black woman off the books. She's called Tiny Kyle and she becomes part of Lena Horne's core circle. Tiny Kyle is a great name. Yeah, that is a great name. But there's a really important point here that not only is she subject to this appalling condition, but she can't have her hair and makeup done in the same room as the white actors who are being treated by union members.

35:31So some of the stories about her being isolated, about her being cold and aloof from other performers and particularly from other black performers was specifically to do with the way in which the hairdresser union treated her. I may need you to repeat half of that because I went for a tailspin the second you said that the hairdresser was not allowed to touch her head. Is this like a Jim Crow thing? Like no water fountains, no hair. You can't touch your head because it'll bite your fingers off and you'll be black as soon as you touch her hair. Like, okay. So they just had to design the wigs and then she had to do it herself.

36:03So they didn't design the wigs. They wouldn't have anything to do with her. the head of hair dressing designed her wigs she once referred to him deciding to make her look like heady lamar as a result like that actually this became part of the racial othering of her is because she ended up having someone who didn't know anything about her hair or how she would look design quote-unquote white hairstyles that were then put on her head they then hired this black woman tiny to look after her and they've become sort of for a long time friends tiny helps look after her kids. And, you know, yeah, that is a tiny happy nugget in a very bleak moment.

36:40Hannah, when we talk about the Jim Crow laws, these are segregation laws keeping white and black people apart in public spaces? Yeah, the Jim Crow laws were about protecting, quote unquote, white interests. They were about restricting interracial marriage. They were about restricting employment rights post the abolition of slavery, and they existed well into the 20th century. I mean, we do know that the light Egyptian foundation was also used by Liz Taylor as Cleopatra. And Ava Gardner in Showboat, which was a role Lena Horne really wanted. So she's playing a character called Julie, who is a white passing mixed race woman, you know, speaking as a white passing mixed race person.

37:20I find it kind of funny how that role is always played by white actresses. But yeah, they used her foundation shade to try and add, quote unquote, ethnic ambiguity or imply non-whiteness on white actors. We need to talk about, we've already, well, she was born in 1917 during one of those big old wars you mentioned, Ezra, right? Of course, she was working through the Second World War. America joined the war in December 1941. So do we get a sense of Lena Horne as the kind of, you know, does she go and do the big... She had a USO show, like I imagine, behind with horns and a little dress looking in a hat.

37:55You know what I'm talking about, that look. Absolutely she was. She was often described as the first black pinup, particularly for white soldiers at that point. And she went on tour with the USO. And Hannah, USO is the kind of entertainment arm of the army, World War II? Yeah, this is the United Service Organisations. And they were specifically thinking about getting entertainment to people who were fighting in the war. But she soon discovered in her words that Jim Crow existed or was alive and well in the army. So she was expected to do separate shows for the white officers than for black soldiers.

38:27But she noticed that prisoners of war were sat in front of the black soldiers. So initially she would go to the back of the performance space and sing directly to the black soldiers. But eventually she just started to refuse to perform. So Lena parted ways with the USO because of her sort of feelings of concern about the way her black soldiers were being treated. And that led her to reach out and find new ways of accessing service people. And that included working with the NAACP, but also through the Army Special Services Division. So segregation in the Army. And she'd already faced that with the Cotton Club.

39:02She'd already sort of lived through that once. And so here she was, to a certain extent, bringing sort of 20 years of progress. And the Army was still way behind. Is that fair? Yeah, absolutely. I think the reality of imprisoned people fighting on the other side, getting a better seat, was really challenging to confront and all of these black service people fighting for America not being treated the same. And it's not like they put the black service members at like the back of the trenches, you know. I'm sure they sent them right in, right up front. Exactly, yeah. So she's the first black pin-up girl, but perhaps for white soldiers, which again is interesting in terms of her identity.

39:36And black soldiers. Of course, but just in terms of how she's marketed, I suppose, as a glamorous, beautiful woman. And of course, you know, the war ended in 1945 and our unlucky in love, Miss Horne, does get married again. So I've got good news there. And hubby number two, is this someone Lena can lean on? Is he going to be a kind of loyal, loving hubby who lets her be the star? Who is he? Certainly at the beginning, yes. Okay. He is. Lena Horne marries the MGM arranger and conductor, Lenny Hayton. Initially, they didn't get on. She didn't trust white men, in her words, and he didn't trust singers.

40:13But eventually they get acquainted. That's the best way that sentence could have ended. Because I was worried. Yeah, I could have framed that better. Never mind. They build this relationship together and eventually in 1947 they get married in Paris. But their partnership is extremely controversial in public and private because interracial marriage is still illegal in California. So they're married in Paris simply because it's illegal in the place they live and work. So interracial marriage is made legal in California a year later in 1948. This comes at a time where Lena's film career is starting to stall.

40:51She's refusing to play these anti-black stereotypes and they're trying to push her to do it. And that leads her to be suspended from MGM's payroll for a period in 1945 because she won't take the part she's being given. She's also got these associations with radical black groups. She's pouring her income into union organizing and she's known to be a friend of Paul Robeson. So they have a context in which the studio is starting to see her as a problem. And then she goes and marries Lenny. I mean, if she's hanging out with Paul Robeson and doing all the organizing, is she about to get the big C stamped all over her?

41:22Because this is that time, right? Absolutely right. I mean, I suppose Senator Joe McCarthy. Not cancer kits. No, no. I mean, we're talking here about the communist witch hunt in Hollywood. OK, OK. That is what brings down Paul Robeson. To a certain extent, she dodges it by going abroad. right? Is that fair or is she forced abroad? I mean, her and Lenny, I'm going to call them Leanie. That's their couple name. Lena and Lenny Leanie. They're overseas, right? From 50 to 52? Yeah. So Lena Horne is named in Red Channels as a communist. And that's basically the end of her time at MGM for a number of years.

41:56She goes to Europe, as you say. Lenny uses his skills to arrange these bespoke versions of songs for her and she sets up as one of the premier nights club performers really in the world and releases a live album in 1957 and that becomes the biggest selling record by a solo female artist on the rca victory label so that is 57 so she's 40 by that point obviously that's still a young woman by you know the standard terms but in terms of in terms of showbiz. 40's fairly mature. This is her greatest hits. She's in the grandma knit by that point. At this point, is she now hailed as a great vocalist? Yeah.

42:40Because she used to say that she wasn't, but she's now 57 best-selling artist on the record label. Is she now a brilliant singer? Yeah, I think by the peak of fame of Stormy Weather in 43, she was definitely known as a singer and her relationship with Duke Ellington allowed her to really apply. herself to her singing style but the relationship with Lenny allows her to explore her voice and being away from MGM where they were very restrictive about where in her voice they would place her songs to force her not to belt to stop her from opening her mouth too wide there is all of those kind of gonna know she's black this is it there were all of these kind of racial codings in terms of how her music was arranged at MGM once she and Lenny go on tour that she's able to be free and a lot of that musical space that was restricted was open to her again amazing and of course by the 1960s the civil rights movement moves into that era where we're all familiar with what's happening we talked before about josephine baker we've talked about robes and she's not necessarily front and center in terms of like giving big big speeches but she's involved big time now but she's back in america now yeah okay so she's the 50s she's all throughout Europe.

43:50She's like not really based anywhere. She's just performing and recording. Yeah. So how involved is she in the civil rights movement through the late 50s into the 60s? Because it's the Million Man March is 63, is it? Yeah. So like, what level of involvement does she have? So she moves back to the US, sort of the end of the 50s, where she does an obscure musical called Jamaica and becomes the first black woman to be nominated for Tony Award for Best Actress in a Musical. And yeah, they start to put down roots. But ultimately I think the civil rights movement is a turning point in her life. And she meets Martin Luther King early on in that process, who asks her to sing at a rally.

44:27And through that, she becomes involved in fundraising for him, fundraising for the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. She works with Eleanor Roosevelt on anti-lynching legislation. She attends the March on Washington with Josephine Baker. There's a beautiful photo of them standing in front of the monument. And this is kind of the beginning of her being very prominently vocal about political activism In the 1970s, she speaks out for black women radicals like Angela Davis when she's incarcerated. And in 1983, the NAACP awarded her the Spring Iron Medal, which is a big deal, right? Yeah, absolutely.

45:01And for outstanding achievement by an African-American. So she was recognised for having a longstanding investment. But I think it's also worth saying that through the 40s, she had been supporting radical politicians, helping with union fundraisers and thinking about the ways in which black political organising could function. And then in civil rights, she came to understand that the way she'd been used as a figurehead or an aspirational symbol of blackness was actually really negatively loaded and started to talk publicly about that and kind of relearn her black radical consciousness, I guess.

45:35And the NAACP, I know that's an important organisation, but I'd love just definition of what that stands for. So it's the National Association for the Advancement of Coloured People. And it was a wide ranging political organisation that operated across the US. Part of it was a political agenda functioning kind of as a union, but it also had an education arm. It was thinking about moving black rights, black employment, black education forwards. and obviously came out when we used to say coloured people. Yes. Yeah, because they didn't want to change the acronym later when we were black. Yeah. The sort of Stormy Weather that she'd sung about in 43, unfortunately Stormy Weather came for her in 1970, 71.

46:20She had a sort of a really tragic 18 months or so. She lost a lot of people she loved. Yeah, so by this point she and Lenny have separated because she was just less interested in her music career and more involved in political activism? I have no idea what Lenny did or what he was like. He was just a white man she didn't trust, but then she did enough to marry him. He gave her a career in Europe and then he dipped. He was just like, I'm a plot device, bye! What the heck? Well, sometimes it's nice that it goes that way. Lenny McGuffin. I mean... And Lenny passed away. So they separate and then her father and her son both pass away within six months of each other.

47:03So her son Teddy. Her son Teddy and Edwin both pass in very close proximity and she'd really felt she'd only reconnected with them as they were adults. Obviously she didn't see her son very much when he was a child and it's only during her success at MGM that she's able to bring him into her lifestyle because she has the money to offer him the kind of education that his father wanted him to have. So yeah, this is a really difficult time and she is in a big transitionary phase having done her film. She's recovered partially through television and through her touring and is now kind of at a juncture of doing something new.

47:40I think she might be the first person on your Dead to Me history who had a sort of TV career. We don't tend to come into the 60s and 70s that much. I think she might be our first TV star. So, I mean, I'll have to check. And you mentioned The Wiz at the beginning, doesn't it? Yeah. That's 1978. Yeah. Do you know who else is in the cast? Oh, I mean, Diana Ross. most notably and Michael Jackson and oh my god Nipsey Russell yeah it's amazing yeah I'm like I'm just listing the credits loads of people she's playing Glinda so she's she's sort of you know that's the kind of the Ariana Grande role now I suppose but it's it's obviously a huge thing for her tell us about her music career in the 80s so the appearance on The Wiz is really symbolic because she has transitioned into being essentially an industry veteran.

48:26And she gets to basically sing a song that Diana Ross has just performed. And we have a kind of classic version. And then we have this blues gospel reworking of it specifically for her. And that throws out what she sounded like at MGM and completely reforms her sound. As a result, she starts working live again. And she has a one woman show called The Lady and Her Music, which opens in 1981 and runs on Broadway for a year. She has some time in Las Vegas as well. And from that, she wins a special Tony Award. That is a speech worth watching if anyone has five minutes. And she wins two Grammys. And in this moment, she really moves from interpreting music by other people, kind of being told where to stand and what to sing, to becoming Lena Horne, truly herself on stage, I think.

49:14Amazing. So actually the Spring Arm Medal from the NAACP, Grammys, Tony Awards. I'm getting a sense here that she's reached icon status, like important to the community, but important to cultural institutions. They're all going, this person deserves awards. When you see her in The Wiz, there is no question that she has gotten icon status because she just appears like ethereally and is like, believe in yourself, I'm out. And you're like, yes. Mic draft. Yes. I think it's such a magical performance because she just appears as like this ball of hope. Yes. But it's also of survival, right? And, you know, she gets a Kennedy Center on her quite soon.

49:49After this, she's recognized by the NAACP. She's doing, still recording quite late into her life as well. So she kind of takes on this presence, taking her experience from when she was working in film and from what went on in the 50s and supporting all these young after-and-coming artists, talking to them about film conditions, helping them figure out their working contracts. So she's both off stage or off screen becomes a sort of mentor figure to various people. I mentioned she doesn't win that Tony Award. Diane Carroll does in four years time and credits Lena Horne with helping her find her way in film and on the stage.

50:27So we have this like double edge. She's still this amazing public figure but she is actually really thinking about how to unravel the industry behind the scenes as well. She lived until 92. So she was born in 1917. she lived to presumably to vote for Barack Obama right yeah because I'm like I remember her dying like in 20 yeah in a whole different millennia yeah so she lived to see a black president and still be an icon and receive all of her flowers and get all her awards it's the real end of the story we wanted right yeah exactly and I helped everyone and yeah I was a communist and then I wasn't yeah I mean she was born during segregation before any woman could vote she was mentored by Billie Holiday and Diana Washington she marched on Washington She sang with Michael Jackson and she lived to see Barack Obama become president.

51:13So I think it's a remarkable lifespan. But as you say, she also died rich and I hope happy, which is unusual in this. She had two husbands she was no longer with. So I'm guessing she was pretty happy.

51:30No comment. So she died in 2010, aged 92. Important question here, Desiree. I can't believe I'm going to ask this. who's more important Lena Horne or Alex Horne from Taskmaster oh my god sorry had to do it see here's the thing I mean I think we all know the correct answer although my fan base is going to say please say Alex Horne please say Alex Horne and I will say I think that if Alex Horne him were here himself he would say Lena Horne I hope so to not be so silly for once I mean genuinely extraordinary life Lena Horne and it's not a story I knew at all other than the song Stormy Weather that's all I knew as a reference point and you had your own reference point.

52:09So yeah, from encountering that. And also like when you talked about her at the beginning, like obviously I live long enough to see her in her later years and her past ways. So I knew that like things were relatively happy. But when you talked about her beginning being sort of like, oh, things were actually pretty well set up in black middle class. That usually goes one of two ways. Like usually it's sort of like stable or it's like a Miles Davis version where it's like everything just sort of careens into insanity. I was waiting to see if there was ever any of that element. but it seemed like she was just trying to be resilient against like being buffeted by society and all of these various odds like being expelled from Hollywood as a communist and going to Europe and coming back from that and having a whole renewed phase of your career where everyone's like oh actually here's all of your flowers and a Broadway show and you know all of this work is really incredible and rarely happens absolutely the nuance window

53:09Well, it's time now for the nuance window. This is where Desiree and I stand quietly in the chorus line for two minutes, doing some jazz hands, but, you know, no singing, while Professor Hannah takes centre stage to tell us something we need to know about Lena Horne. So my stopwatch is ready. Take it away, Professor Hannah. So Lena Horne relentlessly talked about the loneliness and isolation that she felt at MGM and that it made her seem like she didn't want to be in community with other black performers. she came to believe that she was chosen by movie executives so that they could capitalise on her perceived racial ambiguity and that made her work and the profile of her success understandably contentious for a really long time and yet the peaks of her career and I would say her story more generally were always in community with other black artists meanwhile she balanced pouring her fortune into grassroots movements she got involved in national organising and she was essential in helping up and coming black performers make choices about their contracts, their working conditions based on her experience.

54:08Lena Horne became a star because she was crowded by support and whatever storm she was weathering. Unlike many others, she was willing to admit her mistakes and to grow intellectually in public. Her story shows the appeal of having had a figurehead, but also the limitations of having one person embody such a diverse community of people. and Horne really tried to pay that investment back to others but while making the most of the platform she was given. I would say her custodianship and her commercial impact paved the way for public acceptance of a lot of Black artists including the megastardom of Diana Ross who took over from Horne as the world's most photographed Black woman.

54:51Her survival and endurance was remarkable but it was also sometimes messy. she reminds us to embrace the complex stories behind the successes and that however exceptional and isolated people tried to make her she relentlessly returned to her people her values and to paying her luck forward amazing thank you so much that's right any final thoughts um that's really incredible what uh an amazing woman i mean i she never called me and helped me out that's why So Alex Horn is my book. So what do you know now?

55:34Well, it's time now for the So What Do You Know Now. This is our quickfire quiz for Desiree to see how much she has learned. You know, I took notes and I think I don't know if they've helped because there's too many notes. And I think I've maybe will miss the forest for the trees. But let's try this. You're good at quizzes. Normally you rely on your memory. Yeah, I know. No, but I'm 46, so what's a memory? So I decided to write things down, but now there's too many facts because normally people die young. It's true, it's true. We gave you the old... She lived to 92. Yeah, she made it to 92. She made it through eight decades before me.

56:09So 10 questions. Here we go. Question one. What was the profession of Lena Horne's mother? Oh, she was an actress. She was a travelling actress. Question two. 16-year-old Lena first performed in which Harlem club? Oh, the unfortunately named, but purposely named Cotton Club. Absolutely. Question three. During World War II, Lena Horne was often described as the first what for the troops? Oh, pinup girl. Yeah. Yeah. The first black pinup girl. Yeah. The first black pinup girl. I mean, okay. What were they pinning up before? Okay. Question four. Who helped Lena negotiate a better contract with Louis B.

56:45Mayer at MGM? Oh, I wrote this down in my notes. Please halt. Your call is important to us. Yes, exactly. Okay, wait a second. Oh, of course, her dad did. Her dad showed up. Her dad showed up and negotiated all of that important stuff. Question five, what was the name of the foundation shade designed for Lena Hall? Oh, this one I had to write down because every time I heard it, my eyes rolled so far back in my head that I couldn't remember anything. So wait, no, The Bronze Venus was the film that she did, but it was Egyptian. It was, what was it? It wasn't Egyptian gold. It was Egyptian bronze.

57:19Where did I write this down? I need a search feature on this. Control F. Yeah, seriously. I definitely, wait a second. I wrote down Max Factor's name, Light Egyptian. Well done, Light Egyptian. Because she can't just be a regular Egyptian. That is far too black. We remember that country's in Africa, don't we? Light Egyptian. For God's sake. Very good. Question six. What did Lena Horne object to when playing for US troops for the USO during World War II? Oh, well, the POWs were placed up front, but the black men were placed in the back and they wouldn't just let her start from the back, but also they shouldn't all be at the back.

57:51Absolutely. Segregation also with officers too. Question seven. What was the name of Lena's musical arranger, second husband? Oh, Lenny. Lenny Hayton. It was a Len and Lenny production. Lenny and Lena. Lenny and Lena. Question eight. In 1983, Lena Horne was awarded the Spring Arn Medal by which famous organisation? The NACPA. The NAACP, my friends. Because a mind is a terrible thing to waste. Absolutely. Did you guys have that? You didn't have that here because that's an American thing. But that was all through the 80s. They had the commercials because a mind is a terrible thing to waste. That's a good line.

58:22Question nine. What 1978 musical film did Lena Horne star in? Oh, wait. What, 1979? 78 film. Oh, The Wiz. The Wiz. Like the one and only. Yeah, absolutely. And this for a perfect score, of course, in what year did Lena Horne die? Oh, 2010. Yeah, absolutely. Which is bonkers. She was like, you're welcome, America. I'm out. Mission accomplished. Pretty much. I mean, thank God she got out before everything got bonkertron again. Well, Desiree, 10 out of 10, never in doubt. I think the note system did work. It did work. There were some fairly intensive shuffling of pages. No, I mean, you know, I got Tony nomination.

59:01She knew too many people with the name Diana, Diane or Dinah. There's a lot of that going around. Amazing. Well, thank you so much, Desiree. Thank you so much, Hannah. Listener, if you want more musical icons with Desiree, we've obviously got episodes on Josephine Baker, Paul Robeson, the Broadway musicals episode with Dr Hannah and Desiree I think we also talked today about all sorts of other things intersecting the Harlem Renaissance episode you can go back to that too for more film actors we've got the History of Bollywood episode and the Sarah Bernhardt episode if you've enjoyed the podcast please share the show with your friends subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sounds to hear new episodes 28 days earlier than anywhere else and if you're outside the UK you can listen at bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts and I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guest in History Corner we have the incredible Dr Hannah to Risingham Robbins from the University of Nottingham.

59:47Thank you, Hannah. Thank you. And in Comedy Corner, we had our leading lady, Desiree Birch. Thank you so much, Desiree. With apologies to Alex Horne. He knows where I am. He's going to find you in these streets, Greg. And to you lovely listener, join me next time as we launch our comeback tour for another forgotten historical star. But for now, I'm off to go and get my dad to renegotiate my BBC contract. Bye!

1:00:16Your Dead to Me is a BBC Studios production for BBC Radio 4. This episode was researched by Rosalind Sklar. It was written by Dr. Emmy Rose Price-Goodfellow, Dr. Emma Naguse and me. The audio producer was Steve Hanke. Our production coordinator was Jill Huggett. It was produced by Dr. Emmy Rose Price-Goodfellow, me and senior producer Dr. Emma Naguse. And our executive editor was Philip Sellers.

1:00:40Greg will be bringing a live version of the Your Dead to Me podcast to theatres around the UK this spring. You can join him in London, Cardiff, Edinburgh and Manchester. And for more information and ticket details, go to yourdeadtomelive.com. Hello, Alex von Tunzelman here with a brand new series of history's heroes. People with purpose, brave ideas and the courage to stand alone. Including the little-known story of a famous author caught up in a horrific accident, which would require all his courage. Dickens remained in the river, helping the rescue, assisting the wounded. He didn't search out to be heroic.

1:01:23He didn't play on his heroism. Subscribe to History's Heroes on BBC Sounds. If there was a big red button that would just demolish the internet, I would smash that button with my forehead. From the BBC, this is The Interface, the show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world. This isn't about quarterly earnings or about tech reviews. It's about what technology is actually doing to your work, your politics, your everyday life. And all the bizarre ways people are using the internet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.