Marie Antoinette: last French queen before the Revolution

8:52Greg Jenner:Am I close? I think Ditsy might be closer than... Oh, no!

8:57Professor Katherine Astbury:I was really fighting for a come on, Antoinette.

9:00Greg Jenner:Well, her brother rather unkindly called her an airhead. She was allegedly very easily distracted, not particularly interested in serious topics, much prefers dancing, music, drawing to reading. The French court get wind of the fact that she's being taught French by two actors, so they decide to send a more appropriate tutor, a man called the Abbé de Vermont, who then has a couple of years at most to prepare her to be wife to the heir to the throne. But she's already 13 and it's a bit late to make a substantial difference, really, to the gaps in her education. He teaches her to read and write in French.

9:36Greg Jenner:He teaches her a little bit about French history and tries to explain how to behave at court because there's a very strict etiquette at French court. She hadn't liked her previous governess, so the Abbé tried hard to make her like him in the hope that this would help remedy the poor education she'd had up until then. But in making his lessons fun, he prioritised style over substance. And when she gets to France, her education is found to be somewhat lacking.

10:03Professor Katherine Astbury:So she has got to that point now at the age of 13. She's going to now move away from her home in the Vienna court to go to Paris to live with her new husband, who is 14. Wow, this is quite something, isn't it?

10:20Jen Brister:Yeah.

10:20Professor Katherine Astbury:And already she leaves with the reputation of being a bit of an airhead.

10:25Jen Brister:Yeah, but she's not ready yet, Jen. She has to be prepared in other ways.

10:29Professor Katherine Astbury:Well, surely she has to have a period. Crucially, yes. Yes. I mean, you can't marry a young girl off to have children without that.

10:37Jen Brister:No, you remember all those 90s makeover shows that you'd see and kind of classic, the kind of rom-coms as well, where the girl takes off her glasses and she's hot. They kind of do that to her. but it's a lot more cruel and unusual, isn't it, Kate?

10:50Greg Jenner:It is. Are you ready for how she's remodelled for her French future husband? She has a French hairdresser sent to style her hair in the French way because she has a characteristic Habsburg forehead, so they want to try and do the hair so that it minimises the foreignness of her forehead. What do you mean by Habsburg forehead?

11:11Professor Katherine Astbury:Is it because her forehead is too far back? Yes.

11:14Jen Brister:The Habsburgs were renowned for inbreeding and so they had a certain physical appearance that was sort of renowned.

11:21Greg Jenner:She had painful orthodontic work to straighten her teeth.

11:25Jen Brister:So braces at 14 is standard for a lot of teenagers now, but in the 18th century that is not fun. More unusual.

11:32Greg Jenner:She also had to wear corsets to improve her silhouette. Right. A little bit of padding to disguise the fact that one of her shoulders was higher than the other. They had to bring in a French ballet master to teach her how to dance with the large skirts, the high heels and a train. She has to learn how to walk and hold her head up in a manner appropriate for a future queen. So there's a lot of preparations going into making her the real deal for when she gets to France.

11:57Jen Brister:Proper makeover.

11:58Professor Katherine Astbury:I get the ache when I'm expected to put foundation on. I'm like, please, I just can't be bothered. But this is way too much.

12:03Jen Brister:And then, yeah, she's sent off to France aged 14. So cue the problematic marriage klaxon, which we unfortunately have to honk a lot on this show. Jen, what words of wisdom would you give to a teenage girl heading off to a foreign land to marry an awkward, lanky, anxious stranger? Oh, my God.

12:20Professor Katherine Astbury:I don't know if I'm the right person to give this advice. Do you know what I mean? My advice would be stay true to yourself and don't compromise and make sure you get what you want out of this relationship.

12:31Jen Brister:I mean, that's very good advice. Probably quite bad advice for the French court. That's probably going to rub up a lot. I think the French would be quite annoyed if you showed up with that.

12:39Professor Katherine Astbury:Sure, I know. I mean, that's why I'm, like, definitely not the right person to ask about that. So the advice would be the opposite. Yeah, fit in.

12:47Jen Brister:Fit in.

12:48Professor Katherine Astbury:Don't stand out.

12:48Jen Brister:Don't stand out.

12:49Professor Katherine Astbury:And just do whatever your husband says. Be as French as he can.

12:51Jen Brister:And so when she arrives in France, what are you imagining? Are you sort of, are you thinking Harry and Meghan? Is it Kate and Wills? You know, what kind of, what's the vibe? Is it fun? Are people happy? You know. Those are the only two options you have.

13:06Greg Jenner:Those are the only two options. Okay. I'm going to sidestep comparing the wedding to either. We'll call her Marie Antoinette now. Once she reaches France, she adopts the name Marie Antoinette to make her more French. She arrives in May 1770 and meets King Louis XV at Compiègne. She bowed low, but he scooped her up in a loving fatherly hug. Oh, that's nice. Apart from the fact that his reputation as a libertine perhaps means that it's slightly less nice than it might seem. She's then introduced to young Louis, her future husband, and the extended family. And two days later, the 16th of May, the pair were married at Versailles and she became Dauphinès, Dauphine of France.

13:48Professor Katherine Astbury:Libertine's just a shagger, isn't it? Yes.

13:50Jen Brister:Libertine is a very posh word for an enjoyer of life.

13:54Professor Katherine Astbury:OK, got you, got you.

13:55Jen Brister:Which, of course, in the 18th century meant...

13:57Greg Jenner:Shagging as many women as he could.

13:59Jen Brister:She gets a wedding gift.

14:00Greg Jenner:She gets a hugely expensive wedding gift from her father-in-law, so Louis XV, a cabinet filled with jewellery and precious objects. The whole marriage is on a really grand scale because he's trying to present his reign as really prosperous and successful when in fact the state finances aren't very healthy. So he's ruining the state for show and Marie-Antoinette is being unwittingly implicated in that deception because she's receiving a ridiculously extravagant set of jewellery as a wedding gift from her grandfather-in-law.

14:32Jen Brister:Famously, things often go wrong at weddings. Usually it's a sort of drunk uncle on the dance floor.

14:36Professor Katherine Astbury:Yeah.

14:37Jen Brister:Occasionally, you know, something, a minor scrape or something. But in this case, people die. What? Quite a lot of people die.

14:44Professor Katherine Astbury:Do you mean members of the public? Yeah. Like outside because of big crowds?

14:49Greg Jenner:Exactly that. So there was a planned firework display for the people of Paris as a sort of a reward and spread the love. Thunderstorms delayed it and when the display did happen, and a stray firework set fire to the Temple of Hymen, and in the ensuing chaos, 132 people were crushed to death. Oh, my God.

15:09Jen Brister:That's awful. It's not a great omen for the marriage, is it? On your wedding day, when... Yeah, the Temple of Hymen as well, of course.

15:15Professor Katherine Astbury:Just adds to the overall sense of it being a bad omen.

15:19Jen Brister:That's not the end of it, because, Jen, on the wedding night, things get even more awkward. Do you know why? Why would it be awkward for the new married couple?

15:26Professor Katherine Astbury:Well, they don't know what they're doing.

15:28Jen Brister:Not just that. They don't know what they're doing with an audience.

15:31Professor Katherine Astbury:Why does it? They have to make sure that they're... There's a going to bed ceremony. Oh, come on. It's hard. I mean, we've all... I remember our first time. Can you imagine with an audience anything worse?

15:48Jen Brister:Kate, talk us through it.

15:49Greg Jenner:So the archbishop blesses the bed.

15:53Jen Brister:That's definitely going to get you in the mood. That's really going to get you in the mood.

15:55Greg Jenner:Louis XV then hands the Dauphin his nightshirt. So the grandfather is there offering advice. Marie Antoinette is receiving her nightshirt in a neighbouring room from another courtier, the Duchess of Chartres. They then have to lie down in front of the king and the entire court to prove that they have shared the same bed. And at that point everyone leaves? And then everyone leaves, yes. So they're not actually...

16:20Jen Brister:OK, so they're not watching the deed. They're not watching the consummation of the marriage. Thank God.

16:24Professor Katherine Astbury:OK, that's fine. So it's not fine, it's awful, but that would have been way too much. So then they're left together in this very romantic mood, isn't it? Super romantic.

16:35Jen Brister:Fireworks, people have died. Your grandfather is handing you, he's telling you what to do. You're like, yeah. The king's advice. Was it useful, Kate? Did Louis rise to the occasion, so to speak?

16:45Greg Jenner:Louis did not rise to the occasion. The marriage was unconsummated for seven years. Aha, kill surprise. Is he gay?

16:56Jen Brister:Or traumatised.

16:57Greg Jenner:These could be traumatised. Right. There's a lot of discussion over why was the marriage not consummated for so long.

17:04Professor Katherine Astbury:Seven years is a long time because I can get, like, that day would have been very traumatic. But at some point, someone's got to get in the mood, haven't they? And also, your adolescence, that's when all the hormones...

17:14Jen Brister:I mean, yeah.

17:15Professor Katherine Astbury:That's when you're at your randiest, right? But nothing.

17:18Jen Brister:This is a huge constitutional problem, right? It is a massive, massive problem. The future of the French monarchy and the Austrian sort of trade deal is at stake here.

17:25Greg Jenner:We don't know if it was personal hesitation, whether it was health-related. In 1777, Marie-Antoinette's brother, Joseph, visits incognito and Louis confides in him about the issues that they're having. In a letter, Joseph then writes that what they're doing was clearly never going to result in pregnancy. But after his visit, they do finally manage to consummate the marriage.

17:50Professor Katherine Astbury:OK, did they know how to consummate their marriage? No, it doesn't sound like a desire. And told them how to... So they've brought up strict Catholic. You don't...

17:58Jen Brister:So they've spent seven years just... Just trying to figure it out. Humping the pillow and just sort of, you know...

18:03Professor Katherine Astbury:No, wrong hole. Maybe. 17... And then they start having a normal marriage?

18:10Jen Brister:He has a little procedure as well, doesn't he, Louis? He does, yeah. So which potentially may be a procedure on, you know...

18:16Professor Katherine Astbury:Sorry, what?

18:17Jen Brister:Well, I'm, you know, speculating, but he may have perhaps had pain in that area. So he might have needed a procedure to do something down there that loosens some skin, for example.

18:27Professor Katherine Astbury:Oh, so he might have needed to be circumcised or something like that. We don't know.

18:31Jen Brister:We are speculating. But the procedure was done and soon after they were able to consummate.

18:36Greg Jenner:They were able to consummate the marriage.

18:37Jen Brister:At the age of, what, 21 and 22? Yeah.

18:39Greg Jenner:OK.

18:40Jen Brister:Maybe some things are just best lost to history. We don't know why. Seven years, we'll just sort of write that off. OK, so with the unconsumited marriage already proving an issue, in 1774, so this was still four years into their not sleeping together, problem. Suddenly, Louis was the King of France, because Louis XV died, making Marie Antoinette the Queen of France. So she was 18 at this point, 19, just about? Just about 19. OK, just turned 19. So the age at which we would normally maybe go to university or maybe get your first job, her first job, Queen. Yeah, that's a lot. What's the first thing she does, Kate, in terms of court politics?

19:18Jen Brister:How does it go?

19:19Greg Jenner:Not perhaps as well as it might have done. OK. This is a funny thing. I mean, they're both still very young. They're very inexperienced. Louis largely leaves her to her own devices. She has nothing to do because the marriage isn't consummated. She's not going to get pregnant and therefore her sole reason for being at court can't exist. So she fills her time with gambling, with balls, with going incognito into Paris, to balls, to the theatre. She gathers around her a group of young people nearer her own age. She's not interested in being polite to the older members of court. She hates the really strict etiquette of court, so she does all she can to sort of sidestep that.

20:01Greg Jenner:She'd rather have a little bit of privacy. She doesn't want to spend all her time in the public eye. And really, she carries on living the life she'd left whilst she was the wife of the heir to France, rather than changing her behaviour once she's become queen.

20:13Jen Brister:So, Jen, how do you think she's doing on RateMyMonarch.com? Do you think the people of France are pleased about their new queen?

20:19Professor Katherine Astbury:I'm guessing the people of France, and they are very vocal as a people, are not at all happy with their new queen, who appears to be just having a big old jolly and ignoring the needs and wants of the people, particularly the working people of Paris, you know, and of France rather. So I would imagine there's a lot of resentment and anger building.

20:42Jen Brister:The problems that will later arise in the French Revolution, they're already there, right?

20:45Professor Katherine Astbury:They are already there, yes. OK.

20:47Jen Brister:Jane, how would you turn things around if you were Marianne's winnette? What's your policy to get people to love you?

20:52Professor Katherine Astbury:Well, I would think I would do something for the people and make a really big gesture. OK. It's like, you know, oh, guys, I've got this great big party and I'm going to put it on for you. Of course, I love you and I really want you to know that I care about you.

21:04Jen Brister:So you'd say let the meat cake. I would say.

21:09Professor Katherine Astbury:Guys, I'm really sorry that you're in poverty, but I've just... Have you had jelly and ice cream before? She doesn't have a great deal of power, so I think maybe she would do something that's a little bit superficial, but maybe...

21:20Jen Brister:OK, that's sensible. OK, she does the most important thing, of course, she produces an heir. She does produce an heir. That is what matters.

21:26Greg Jenner:That's really what makes a difference. She does produce an heir. Finally, she has a daughter, Marie-Thérèse Charlotte, born in 1778. Another Marie. Another Marie, born, of course, in front of the court, because child's birth to a queen has to be public to prove that the child has come out of her womb. OK, but she has a daughter, so that's disappointing. Luckily, she then carries on with the childbearing. She has Louis-Joseph in 1781, though he will die aged seven just before the start. So he was the Dauphin. He was the Dauphin. He dies just before the start of the French Revolution in 1789. Louis Charles, who is born in 1785, and Sophie-Hélène Beatrice in 1786, who dies aged one.

22:18Greg Jenner:So she has four children, two of whom will die in her lifetime.

22:23Jen Brister:She has her sort of squad of ladies at court. She's got a particularly close friend, hasn't she, Kate?

22:27Greg Jenner:Yes, her close friend is called Madame de Polignac. She's named governess of the royal children, which caused a little bit of a stir at court because she doesn't really have any qualifications to be governess to the royal children. But she's Marie Antoinette's best friend. Therefore, Marie Antoinette is adamant that she only wants people she can trust to be around her family.

22:48Jen Brister:And governess is responsible for the education of the children too. It's not just sort of like nice auntie who just hands them sweets. It is like teaching them Latin and, you know, how to do maths and write letters.

22:58Greg Jenner:Preparing them to be members of the royal family. It did help her popularity, but because of the gap between the marriage and the first child being born, there are a huge number of rumours about who the father of each of these children is.

23:14Professor Katherine Astbury:OK, Kate, here's my question, because I feel like as a historical figure that I certainly don't know a great deal about, what I do know about her is that it's very two-dimensional and she has been given a really hard rap. Are there any redeeming qualities to Marie Antoinette, other than that she's a party girl that is very self-involved, suffered, you know, a lot of losses as a mother. Anything else going on for her that we can give her a little bit of cheerleading for?

23:44Greg Jenner:OK, we can certainly try. How about her being an important figure in the patronage of arts and culture? OK. So particularly decorative arts and music. She uses her influence to move public tastes to a more modern, cosmopolitan style of music. Though often it backfires because her preferred opera composer, Gluck, was her former music teacher in Austria and therefore even when she tries to persuade the French to be more cosmopolitan, she's still accused of being anti-French and pro-Austrian. She's trying to develop a more cosmopolitan theatrical and musical scene in France. She's trying to loosen the very tight etiquette at court in her own way, trying to modernise things a little bit.

24:31Greg Jenner:She sets the agenda in the theatre. She certainly sets the agenda when we come to fashion as well.

24:38Jen Brister:Yeah, hugely so. And what about politics? Louis is the king, but he's not renowned for being this great thinker, this great man of power. He likes clockwork. That's his hobby. Yes. Does Marie quietly start running the show or is she happy?

24:52Greg Jenner:So initially, no, though she is an important figure at court, and largely because Louis XVI doesn't take a mistress. So the way that the French court had developed over the 18th century was that the mistress of the king was the one who had the king's ear and could be the one to sort of get favours and advantages from. Because Louis isn't interested in taking a mistress, people expect Marie Antoinette to gain them favours, but she has a very fine line to tread because she can't be seen to be... Overstepping her. Overstepping her mark, exactly. Her role as consort, her role is to bear children. So she's in a slightly awkward position and accused of meddling because there isn't anyone else to take the flack.

25:38Greg Jenner:When Louis XV was king, his various mistresses...

25:42Jen Brister:Various, yeah.

25:42Greg Jenner:..were the ones that got the gossip and the attention of the scandalmongers. And because there isn't anyone to deflect attention, it all falls on Magyantanette. So she's effectively queen and mistress because she has the king's ear. so it's all concentrated down onto her the part that comes with being queen the having to receive foreign dignitaries and that side of the role she's not really particularly keen on she'd rather be with her friends

26:10Professor Katherine Astbury:and that's where all the power is that's where if you have the ear of the foreign dignitaries and if you're able to position yourself in a way where you're both sort of benign but also listening in And that's quite a useful thing to have if you want to have a bit of power.

26:27Jen Brister:We need to talk about a marathonette and fashion. She's renowned for it. There's a new exhibition coming to the V &A Museum soon about her sort of amazing clothes. Jen, do you know how many new dresses she ordered per year from her favourite dressmaker?

26:41Professor Katherine Astbury:Oh, I'm imagining in their hundreds.

26:42Jen Brister:Yeah, it was 300. 300 a year? 300 a year. Brand new dresses.

26:48Professor Katherine Astbury:So that's almost a new dress for every single day.

26:51Jen Brister:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, some days she's just wearing the same dress twice. What a slob!

26:56Professor Katherine Astbury:Can you imagine wearing a dress more than once?

26:58Jen Brister:Her dressmaker was Rose Bertin. Yes. Can you tell us more about fashion and Marie Antoinette's sort of role within it?

27:06Greg Jenner:So, one of the things that lots of people know about Marie Antoinette is her extravagant clothing. She was accused at the time of spending too much money on dresses, although, in her defence, she is supposed to be promoting the superiority of French culture. She represents the nation and is keeping dozens, if not hundreds of people employed as a result of being the face of France in that sense. So there is a bit of a double bind there in that she's been told she's spending too much. But on the other hand, even in the 20th century, if a queen were to re-wear an outfit, it was commented on by Queen Elizabeth, would regularly pick.

27:48Greg Jenner:People would say, oh, she was wearing that dress that she wore last in eight years ago. Even now, there's still a sense that royals, royal women are not able to wear the same clothes without comment. I don't remember anyone commenting about any kings wearing the same suit. Yeah, they still don't. So she is supposed to be representing France and representing the superiority of French culture. Her stylist designs, Rose Bertin, designs all her dresses. 300 a year might sound excessive. It's not as bad as Josephine, Napoleon's Josephine. She could top 900 a year. Wow! So that's three a day. But again, Marie Antoinette finds herself criticised.

28:30Greg Jenner:Devil you do, devil you don't. She's criticised for spending too much on over-the-top outfits, but then she's also criticised when she tries wearing simpler clothes. So there's a really famous dress that's called the chemise à la reine, which was made out of white muslin rather than French silk. And it's seen, by the standards of the time, as a really casual garment. The formal French court dresses, you've got the tight corsets, you've got the giant skirts. This is much, much looser. It's a sort of neoclassical, we're heading towards Jane Austen sort of style. It's almost a slip, isn't it? It's almost a slip.

29:03Greg Jenner:It looks like an underdress.

29:05Professor Katherine Astbury:Well, it must have looked completely bananas when you compare it to what everyone else was wearing. It must have thought, are you wearing your nightdress?

29:10Greg Jenner:It was, yeah, exactly. And she was painted wearing it and that caused a huge furore because that was considered to be an indecent dress for the Queen of France to be wearing for a formal portrait. There's a lot going on.

29:24Jen Brister:There's a lot going on. There's another rumour, of course. She was given a private sort of palace, Petit Trianon, and there's a rumour that she goes there to sort of relax and that she roleplays as a particular thing. Do you want to guess what that would be, that she was cosplaying as?

29:40Professor Katherine Astbury:Well, I imagine she'd be cosplaying as something that is very far removed from who she is. So maybe she was cosplaying as a servant. Oh, it's not far off. Or a lady-in-waiting. Very, very close.

29:49Greg Jenner:Very close. So this petit trianon was given to her by her husband, Louis XVI. And she uses it as a space where she can go to be with her friends. So you could only enter if you'd been invited by the Queen. Even the King had no right to go unless she invited him there. It's a very highly stylised pastoral setting. So she not only has this little miniature palace, but she has a farm.

30:15Jen Brister:The Hamo de la Reine.

30:16Greg Jenner:The Hamo de la Reine. She has a theatre built there so that she and her friends can put on plays. And that leads to this rumour that she's pretending to be a shepherdess.

30:29Jen Brister:With sort of pink sheep.

30:31Greg Jenner:With pink sheep. I think really it's that she's acting in pastoral plays where she might have been a lady-in-waiting or a shepherdess because of the vogue for pastoral plays at the time and it gets twisted in the rumours because people aren't happy. At Versailles, the king and the queen are public figures. Anyone can turn up at Versailles and go and watch them eat. But this is a very private space and because they don't know what's going on there, people make it up. Right.

31:02Jen Brister:So they're saying she's cosplaying as little Bo Peep. She's sort of, you know, it's cutesy little pink sheep. She doesn't know what she's doing. She's pretending to be a real peasant girl. But of course, she's the Queen of France. What's she playing at?

31:16Greg Jenner:Welcome to the podcast Smologies.

31:18Jen Brister:Completely kid safe, classroom friendly, all ages and shorter versions of Ologies podcast classics. We ask super smart people the questions that are on all of our minds, even if they're a little silly. There's water on the moon? There's ice on the moon. Yes, yes. We answer the gross questions. Can snakes fart? And the big ones too. Where did we come from? Where are we going? How did life originate? Smologies. Shorter, G-rated episodes of Ologies. Classroom safe, kid friendly. Smologies. Subscribe now and never miss an episode. And meanwhile, another huge scandal breaks out. This one involving a very famous necklace.

31:58Jen Brister:It's called the Diamond Necklace Affair. What happens?

32:01Greg Jenner:A con artist tries to persuade the former French ambassador to Vienna to buy a necklace to get him back into Marie Antoinette's favour. This is a necklace that Louis XV had ordered for his mistress but never bought, and Marie Antoinette had turned it down. The former French ambassador, Rohan, thought that it was a good way of getting back in the Queen's good books, buys it and then finds that he's been completely duped by the con artist who's taken the jewels and done a runner.

32:31Jen Brister:Yeah, and he's hired an actress to perform as the Queen, right? Yeah. So there's a sort of con in there. And poor Marion Toinette's sort of left going, hang on, what? I've never even heard of this guy. Yeah, the Queen...

32:41Greg Jenner:So Rowan thought that he was meeting the Queen when he was actually meeting a lookalike sex worker.

32:46Jen Brister:Right.

32:47Greg Jenner:And everyone believed that that was entirely plausible, that he might meet the Queen in the gardens of Versailles at night. And therefore nobody thought that that was anything out of the ordinary. So far had her reputation slumped by then.

32:57Jen Brister:Oh, dear.

32:58Greg Jenner:Easily confused.

32:59Jen Brister:Yeah, Jen, do you feel sorry for Rohan being duped by this actress performing in the garden at dusk, I suppose, in the dark?

33:07Professor Katherine Astbury:Do I feel sorry for him? I do feel sorry for him in as much as he went in good faith and he thought he was speaking to the Queen. I always feel like whenever anyone is a victim of fraud, I feel sorry for them, even if it's like, come on, dude, what are you talking about?

33:20Jen Brister:Exactly. And Marie Antoinette is the victim of the fraud biggest of all because everyone thinks that she orchestrated it and she'd already turned down these jewels. Twice. And she could have the king buy them for her. No problem.

33:31Greg Jenner:She felt that they were too expensive and that wasn't an appropriate expense given the state of the economy.

33:36Professor Katherine Astbury:I mean, that is the irony is that she never wanted them. She thought they were inappropriate amount of money to be spent and she still got completely hung out to dry. Yeah.

33:44Jen Brister:Story of her life.

33:45Professor Katherine Astbury:So here's where I think maybe she's getting a hard rap, because it doesn't sound to me that within the world that she lives in, in that sort of aristocratic sphere, that she is working particularly outside of that in terms of luxury, spending a huge amount of money on clothing. It all seems to be fitting in within the parameters of what is expected of a queen. Why does she get such a hard rap from the French people?

34:10Greg Jenner:I think the key to the answer to that question is that it's not initially the French people, it's those at court that she's alienating because she doesn't want to be with any of the old guard. She wants to be with young people. And there's a very substantial group who are anti-Austrian, who think that Austria have somehow tricked France into this alliance and that Austria is getting a better deal out of the alliance than France is. Even though France's economy is in the toilet. Yes.

34:43Professor Katherine Astbury:And Austria is the head of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, which is doing very well at that point, I imagine.

34:50Jen Brister:Doing pretty fun, yeah.

34:51Professor Katherine Astbury:They're buzzing. Certainly not struggling financially in the way that the French right economy is struggling. So it's really the fact that she's alienated everyone at court. That's what's got her into trouble.

35:01Jen Brister:And she's still seen as foreign by the French people. Remember, the Austrians were enemies for 200 years. It's like a long-standing thing. So she's still foreign. She's not politically astute enough. And she's been made a patsy for this sort of diamond heist. And we start getting much more aggressive attacks on her in the media. and we're going to now show you something pretty graphic. In fact, Jen, I'm afraid I have to say, we're going to show you something pornographic now.

35:24Professor Katherine Astbury:Holy moly.

35:25Jen Brister:And we have checked with your agent in advance. We're not going to force this upon you without some consent, but I'm going to ask you to turn over your paper and describe for the listeners what you can see.

35:34Professor Katherine Astbury:Right. OK. OK, that's interesting. I can see what looks to be a... OK, this is going to be difficult. It is a phallus. And it is kind of almost like an ostrich, but the neck... Why are you making me do this? The neck is a member. And I don't mean just... I'm not talking about a member of the House of Commons. I'm talking about a man's member with the legs of a horse and the tail of something. It's kind of like half... It's like a half ostrich, half penis. I can't say half. That's... And a third horse. Is that right?

36:14Jen Brister:Yeah, I think that's... I think it's fair. It's basically an erect penis with legs and a tail, and there's a man riding it, and Marie Antoinette is stroking the member bit.

36:24Greg Jenner:Yeah. So it's a play on words. The French for autruche is ostrich, and autriche is Austrian. So that's why we get quite a few puns. So it's a dick pun.

36:34Jen Brister:It's a dick pun. Classy pornography, this.

36:37Professor Katherine Astbury:So the next picture is, is it Marie Antoinette sitting on a chaise longue or a sofa, and there appears to be a man hitching up her dress, and I can't actually see what he's doing because I don't... My eyesight is so bad. But I imagine he's... Well, it's probably... He's having a little fondle. He's having a fondle of something and there's a chap who's just opened the door. He can see what's going on.

36:58Jen Brister:Yeah, and we have two other images as well. We have a scene of lesbianism and we have a threesome. So these are...

37:05Professor Katherine Astbury:Oh, we should have started with that third picture. Why did we start with a member? That would have really warmed me into this.

37:10Jen Brister:Yes, I feel like the man on an ostrich cock was probably the strong image.

37:15Professor Katherine Astbury:Yeah, it was a bit much. So are the lesbians, is that Marie Antoinette as well? Yes. And is that her with her best friend, the governess? Yes. Yes, Madame de Polyac. I don't even know these two women, but already I can tell.

37:27Jen Brister:These are kind of publicly printed, right, Kate? They are attack. We call them pornography because that's, you know, in terms of the kind of sexual level, but these are forms of attack against Marie Antoinette that are designed to humiliate her, to scandalise her, to say that she's horny, she's cheating on the king, She can't be trusted, all of those things.

37:46Greg Jenner:All of the above. So we've both got prints like the ones that you've just looked at. We've also got pamphlets, which are sometimes in verse or plays. From the early 1770s onwards, she's accused of nighttime sexual encounters in the palace gardens from before she's even queen. They become increasingly pornographic throughout the 1780s. titles include the uterine Führers of Marie Antoinette the Royal Orgy, the Royal Dildo. She's frequently depicted in lesbian relationships with her friends, both Madame de Polignac and another of her friends the Princesse de Lambal She's often shown with Louis' brother, younger brother, the Comte d 'Artois or with the Marquis de Lafayette.

38:32Greg Jenner:Oh really? Who's that? The Marquis de Lafayette was... He's in Hamilton He's in Hamilton, yeah.

38:39Jen Brister:Yes, I've seen Hamilton. Yes, he's in Hamilton.

38:41Greg Jenner:He's a Frenchman in Hamilton.

38:43Jen Brister:He was the French soldier who went and helped the Americans in the American Revolutionary War. He was a teenager who went over with his money.

38:49Professor Katherine Astbury:Right, OK. Did they have a close friendship? Or are they just completely made up?

38:53Greg Jenner:They're just making everything up at this point. They're completely made up. They're picking names out of the air. They're accusing her of infidelity. The king can't possibly have fathered the children. Look at that big gap. She's unnatural. She's got all these desires. She's obsessed with having intercourse wherever she can, with whomever she can. The list of people she's supposed to have slept with in these pamphlets and prints is ridiculously long. They're trying to destroy her reputation and with it, the reputation of the French monarchy.

39:28Professor Katherine Astbury:I mean, this all happens now to women, doesn't it? I mean, the misogyny is off the scale. But we can see this kind of, you know, we do this with women in the public eye to this day. And how effective was it? Because, I mean, this sort of stuff works.

39:44Jen Brister:Yeah. It really works.

39:45Greg Jenner:The king tries to have copies seized and burnt, but it's very hard. You can't control all print outlets. You don't need many of them. You only need one to survive. We think, again, Some of this initially is coming from the court to Paris, rather than it being the people of Paris creating this for themselves.

40:09Jen Brister:But she was cheating on the king, we believe. What was the name of the real lover?

40:13Greg Jenner:So the love of her life was a Swedish officer called Axel von Fersen. That is quite a hot name, actually. It is a hot name, isn't it? Axel von Fersen.

40:21Jen Brister:I immediately in my head, I'm just seeing a kind of Swede in a kind of chemise shirt, just being like, hello.

40:27Greg Jenner:I think the jury is still out as to how far they went. Oh, interesting. I think now most people will say she probably did have a physical relationship with him. Modern technology has allowed us to read their encoded letters and his diaries. So he censored passages. He scribbled out the passages where she talks about how much she loves him. and modern technology is allowed, with using infrared, can see the ink beneath the scribbles out. He really should have destroyed the letters because if they'd have got into the wrong hands, it really would have completely destroyed her reputation. But he couldn't bear to be parted from the letters, so he kept them but hid the bits where she talks about him as the love of her life.

41:11Greg Jenner:And what was this chap's name? He was... Axel von Fersen. Axel von Fersen. A Swedish officer.

41:17Jen Brister:He was a Swedish count, wasn't he? and he was there at the court on behalf of Sweden? On behalf of Sweden. OK, so it was an ambassador role. He's the kind of fancy man, but all these other kind of rumours and scandals are, you know... Are false. ...are false and designed to destroy her. So you've got this kind of real rising anti-monarchist. The movement is growing bigger and bigger against the monarchy, but also personally against Marie Antoinette. So, Kate, obviously Marie Antoinette's political career is in the context of what will become the French Revolution, which is caused by many factors, but what do we need to know?

41:47Greg Jenner:The state was left virtually bankrupt after supporting the American War of Independence. Louis XVI called a meeting of the Estates General to ask for permission to raise emergency funds, but instead they declared themselves a National Assembly, and the people of Paris, worried that the king will suppress this new assembly, stormed the state prison, the Bastille, on 14 July 1789, and that marks the beginning of what we now call the French Revolution.

42:12Jen Brister:Yes, and we did an episode on the American Revolution, and we commented then that the irony that the French supporting American republicanism ended the monarchy in France. So it is a sort of bit of a blunder, that one. Just a bit. Yeah, fascinating time. But the obvious upshot is the French Revolution comes to the palace and what happens to Marie Antoinette and her family and her husband?

42:33Greg Jenner:In October 1789, a group of women marched to Versailles demanding bread and the king. At this point, the people of Paris still think that the king can save them. They're starving. The king has been misled by his courtiers over in Versailles. Bring him back to Paris and all will be well. They're relocated to the Tuileries Palace in Paris and over the next two years face increasing demands for constitutional reform. So the revolutionaries are trying to make a constitutional monarchy along the lines of the British system. but Louis is reluctant to sacrifice any of the notion of kingship that he feels he's inherited from Louis XIV.

43:17Greg Jenner:So there's a tension between wanting to be popular and not doing anything that would lead the nobility to lose any of their privileges. And in the end, on the 20th of June 1791, the royal family try to flee France.

43:31Jen Brister:Yeah. And it's been a tragic life, but this is genuinely quite funny. Sorry to make light of it, but it really is, because the king and queen try and do a runner and it does not go well, Jen.

43:41Professor Katherine Astbury:I don't know much about the French Revolution, but I know it doesn't end well for these two. No. How do they try to escape then? Do they go incognito? Of course they do. Of course they do. They disguise themselves as ordinary people.

43:53Greg Jenner:They wouldn't know an ordinary person if it hit them in the face. No, they wouldn't. The first problem is that... Oh, blimey, governor. Yeah. They got lost. So Marie Antoinette got lost trying to leave the palace because they're trying to... They don't go anywhere in the palace unaccompanied. This is not their normal palace. This is the Tuileries Palace where they've been sort of rehoused by the revolutionaries. She gets a bit lost trying to find the rendezvous point so they can actually leave. They then stop for meals as if they've got all the time in the world. They think once they're out of Paris, all will be well.

44:24Greg Jenner:So they stop. They've got a ridiculous amount of luggage with them. They get further and further behind the schedule.

44:30Jen Brister:Are they in the royal carriage?

44:31Greg Jenner:They're not in the royal carriage now. That's a bit of a good way. It doesn't actually say, Goyle's trying to escape on the side, but it might as well, frankly, for the speed at which they're trying to get... They keep stopping for food. Yeah, they keep stopping for food. They're recognised, unsurprisingly. The king has quite a prominent nose.

44:49Jen Brister:Well, there's a famous thing that, of course, his face is on the coins.

44:51Greg Jenner:His face is on the coins.

44:52Jen Brister:So he tries to pay for lunch with his face. Yes. And the guy's like, that's you.

44:56Greg Jenner:And he stops to ask for directions at one point. I mean, it's just such a hopeless attempt.

45:01Jen Brister:Hello, good sir. ordinary man. Hello, I'm not a king. Where is Austria?

45:07Greg Jenner:They're brought back to Paris. Of course. And the revolutionaries have to pretend that they were kidnapped because it's just taken them two years to write a constitutional monarchy. So they pretend they were kidnapped. It's so embarrassing that they try to run. OK.

45:21Professor Katherine Astbury:It doesn't go well for me. I mean, do they not understand that the priority when running away is the running away bit?

45:29Jen Brister:Yes.

45:29Professor Katherine Astbury:Everything else is secondary. Honestly. These people.

45:32Jen Brister:Although saying that, I got lost on the way here to the BBC today. I turned left instead of right and I didn't know where I was.

45:36Professor Katherine Astbury:To be honest with you, I can't get here unless someone walks me here. So I don't know what I'm talking about.

45:39Jen Brister:So I am the Marie Antoinette of podcasting. OK, so, I mean, obviously farce turns to tragedy. We've had our little laugh there, but actually we know how this ends. The king is executed first. And then there's 1792, isn't it?

45:53Greg Jenner:1793, the king is executed.

45:55Jen Brister:Sorry, yes, 1793. He's executed first. He's accused of treason. He's found guilty of treason. he is executed. That is an incredibly serious thing. Marion to Annette, they don't, it's not the same day, it's not the same week and so they clearly have a bit of a kind of pause. So are they debating what to do with her?

46:12Greg Jenner:There is debate about what to do with her. They consider putting her on trial, they consider sending her into exile, they wonder about exchanging her for political prisoners. I think part of the background to the discussion on what to do with her is the years of propaganda that have made much of her sexual appetites. During the revolution, we get the obsession with being anti-Marie Antoinette, crystallising into attacks on the undesirability of women holding power. So we've got a double thing going on here. It's not just that she's queen, it's also that in the run-up to the revolution, she had started taking on greater political power.

46:52Greg Jenner:So in the end, in October 1793, She's given a two-day show trial in effect. She's accused of orchestrating orgies, planning a massacre of the National Guards, liaising with foreign enemies, Austria, obviously. So writing to her brother to say help. Writing to her brother to say help. And the only one that really triggers a response from her in the court is that she's accused of incest with her son. OK. OK.

47:22Professor Katherine Astbury:I mean, look, she hasn't behaved brilliantly. She's very spoiled and has literally done nothing for the people of France. However, she's not guilty of any of those things. I mean, she's guilty of being a product of a class of people that are completely, you know, have no sort of real idea about how the French people live. On the day that she's killed, is that the day that only Marie Antoinette's life is taken? Or is it, do they do these sort of mass kind of killings where it's like, well, we're going to kill you in the morning and they'll kill you in the afternoon. Yes, it's a bit of a conveyor belt by October 1793.

47:58Professor Katherine Astbury:You see, this is the thing. All those people that were putting out all of this stuff about Marie Antoinette and, you know, this kind of, like, really indulging on how the aristocracy have no morals and have no sort of value system kind of backfired on all of them because they all got their heads taken, didn't they? They were all killed.

48:17Greg Jenner:More ordinary people are killed during the period of the terror than members of the nobility.

48:22Jen Brister:But her best friends are killed, aren't they?

48:24Greg Jenner:Her best friends are killed in... Well, no, Madame de Polignac escapes France. Oh, does she? She escapes.

48:29Jen Brister:Lambal.

48:30Greg Jenner:But the Princesse de Lambal is killed and then mutilated and her head put on a spike. And they're stopped. Not all of the revolutionaries are completely bloodthirsty. There are some that prevent the pike with the Princesse de Lambal's head on it being taken to Marie Antoinette. They wanted her to kiss her friend. but they were actually, the revolution was stopped from doing that but that was only after they'd mutilated her body and cut her head off.

48:56Professor Katherine Astbury:He seemed to hate women more than men.

48:58Jen Brister:Yeah.

48:58Professor Katherine Astbury:It doesn't sound like the men, including the king, got as bad a rap as...

49:05Jen Brister:And Noam, you're right, I think you are right. And her children, the two surviving children? The son became Louis XVII on his father's death.

49:16Greg Jenner:The king is dead, long leave the king. So child became king. He dies shortly afterwards in prison, having been looked after, in inverted commas, by the revolutionaries. Not a well child. He dies. Marie-Thérèse will survive. She will become the Duchess of Angoulême and will help Louis' younger brother become Louis XVIII. Napoleon famously said of her, she was the only one in the family to wear trousers. She does live a full adult life. She's the only one who does.

49:48Jen Brister:So Marie Antoinette was executed 16th October 1793. Her last words, rather extraordinarily, do you want to tell us what they were, Kate?

49:57Greg Jenner:Allegedly.

49:58Jen Brister:Yeah.

49:59Greg Jenner:Do we know how much truth there are in actually her words? Allegedly she said to the executioner, pardon me, sir, I did not do it on purpose after she stepped on his foot.

50:09Professor Katherine Astbury:Oh, that's heartbreaking.

50:11Jen Brister:Isn't it? It's really...

50:12Professor Katherine Astbury:That's so heartbreaking.

50:13Jen Brister:Yeah, so she was executed. Do you want to guess how old she was at this point on her death?

50:16Professor Katherine Astbury:What are we, 17? I don't know. She's young. What is she, 20s? No, 37.

50:23Jen Brister:Oh, she's 37.

50:24Professor Katherine Astbury:Oh, my gosh.

50:25Jen Brister:It's not... We met her as a kid coming to France at 14.

50:29Professor Katherine Astbury:Oh, yeah, she was only 14 when she came. So, I mean, 37's still no age, really, is it? Yeah. I mean, I'm well past it. Yeah, that's why I keep saying...

50:38Jen Brister:37's young. 37's really young. Really young.

50:42Professor Katherine Astbury:Whippersnapper.

50:43Jen Brister:No, it's horrible, isn't it? It's an extraordinary life. I think, as you said at the beginning of the episode, Jen, a lot of the things we know about her are not true, but actually a lot of the things that the French people knew about her were not true. She was the victim of scandal and rumour and gossip.

50:57Professor Katherine Astbury:Yeah, and a very deliberate and successful smear campaign, which really undid all of the nobility to a degree and the French court as a whole. It's weird, isn't it, how the more you learn about these people, the more you give them a third dimension. I can see that she's an incredibly flawed human being, but also she was a product of what the court created. Yeah. Thank you. I really enjoyed that. I thought it was fascinating.

51:21Jen Brister:The Nuance Window!

51:27Jen Brister:Well, it's time now for The Nuance Window. This is where Jen and I dress up like shepherdesses for two minutes with our pink sheep while Professor Kate takes centre stage to tell us something we need to know about. Marie Antoinette, my stopwatch is ready. Kate, take it away.

51:41Greg Jenner:It can be tricky to untangle myth and reality with Marie Antoinette because what we know largely come from things others wrote about her rather than from her own words. Opinions then and now are contradictory. Was she a monster or a martyr? Was she thoughtless and frivolous or a scheming villain? Was she depraved or a devoted mother? Did she bring down the French monarchy with her extravagance or was she a proto-feminist influencer and role model? Versailles was a palace of mirrors and multiple reflections. Marie Antoinette reflects back at us our own biases, so to different people she will mean quite different things.

52:15Greg Jenner:You'll have to make up your own mind, I'm afraid. It is important, though, to distinguish more clearly between the teenage Marie Antoinette and the person she was 20 years later. Ill-prepared to become queen, aged 19, she did end up taking on more political responsibilities when Louis was paralysed by depression and indecision. But the task of modernising the monarchy and solving the economic crisis without impinging on the privileges of the nobility was an impossible one. During the revolution, she tried to save the monarchy, writing a huge number of letters to revolutionaries as well as her brother on the throne in Vienna to try to effect change.

52:47Greg Jenner:She would have seen herself as acting in France's interests, when in fact it's the point in her life when she's most actively working against them, just another of the many contradictions that make up her life. Her most tangible legacy is the impact she had on interior design, one of her most enduring passions. Furniture and objet d 'art from this period are usually labelled Louis XVI, but it would be much more accurate to call them Marie Antoinette style as her interest in fabrics and furniture very much marked the late 18th century. Her taste is now appreciated as elegant and refined, a marketable brand for everything from tea to tote bags.

53:22Greg Jenner:Our collective fascination with her riches to rags story shows no sign at all of fading. And given that powerful women in society are still seen with suspicion and that tensions between privacy and celebrity have taken on a new urgency in a social media age, Marie Antoinette's life will undoubtedly continue to be relevant and generate debate for years to come.

53:42Jen Brister:Two minutes on the dot. Incredible timekeeping. Wow, look at that.

53:46Greg Jenner:That's impressive because I've sped up because I was about five seconds over when I practised it yesterday.

53:51Jen Brister:Oh, well done, Kate. Thank you so much. I mean, that's fascinating. The idea of the mutability, the fact that she was all things to all people. Really interesting, Jen, isn't it?

53:59Professor Katherine Astbury:Yeah, and also the parallels about celebrity now. You know, you can see them clearly, especially with like social media.

54:08Jen Brister:I wrote a book about the history of celebrity. I described her as a celebrity, as an early celebrity.

54:12Professor Katherine Astbury:Definitely. And because the printing press existed and I think people were able to get things out so much easier. It was much easier to augment your celebrity but it was much easier to pull you down as well. Exactly. People will believe what they want to believe.

54:25Jen Brister:And still do. Yeah. So what do you know now?

54:33Jen Brister:OK, well, it's time now for the So What Do You Know Now. This is our quickfire quiz for Jen to see how much she had learnt. I mean, Jen, you've been writing some serious notes. I know.

54:41Professor Katherine Astbury:I've written some really serious notes, but really right at the beginning, Kate, I just want to let you know I forgot to start the notes at the beginning. I was listening and then went, I've got no idea what you said then. But look, let's see what I've got.

54:52Jen Brister:OK, we've got ten questions for you. We've talked about an awful lot and maybe some of the earlier stuff maybe not so well covered in your notes, but let's see. Question one. What was Marie Antoinette's name when she was born?

55:03Professor Katherine Astbury:Maria Antonia. It was.

55:05Jen Brister:She was Archduchess, Maria Antonia. Question two. Name two ways that Empress Maria Theresa tried to make her teenage daughter more appealing to the French.

55:14Professor Katherine Astbury:Well, she had braces on her teeth. Yeah. And she had to have ballet lessons so that she could glide into court.

55:21Jen Brister:Exactly, glide like a swan. Question three. What ominous event happened during Marie Antoinette and Dauphin Louis' wedding celebrations?

55:28Professor Katherine Astbury:Well, there was a fireworks display that went horribly wrong at the Temple of Hymen. And over 130 people were killed in a crush.

55:37Jen Brister:Well done. That's very good knowledge. Question four. Name one theory about why the couple did not consummate their marriage for seven long years.

55:44Professor Katherine Astbury:Something to do with poor Louis XVI's foreskin.

55:48Jen Brister:Yeah, or something like that, yes.

55:50Professor Katherine Astbury:Or something like that. A medical situation. Sure.

55:53Jen Brister:Or they were just doing it wrong.

55:54Professor Katherine Astbury:They were probably doing it wrong as well. They didn't know what they were doing.

55:57Jen Brister:Question five. How many new dresses did Marie Antoinette apparently order per year?

56:01Professor Katherine Astbury:300.

56:02Jen Brister:Yes, a perfectly sensible number. Question six. Can you name one of the supposed sexual partners Marie Antoinette was depicted with in pornographic pamphlets?

56:11Professor Katherine Astbury:Her best friend and her name was Madame de Pognac.

56:16Jen Brister:Yeah, Pognac. Yeah, very good. Yeah, absolutely. There's also the brother of the King Lafayette and the Princesse de Lambal. Question seven. According to gossip, how did Marie Antoinette supposedly relax at the Petit Trianon Palace?

56:27Professor Katherine Astbury:She would cosplay as a shepherdess shepherding pink sheep.

56:32Jen Brister:That's very good. And doing plays, we think, yeah. Question eight. What jewellery-based scandal was Marie Antoinette tied to in 1785?

56:39Professor Katherine Astbury:She was tied to the Diamond Necklace Affair.

56:43Jen Brister:She was. Someone should make a movie. Question nine. What was the name of her Swedish lover? Do you remember? The love of her life.

56:49Professor Katherine Astbury:Axel Axel. Hang on a second. Let me check my notes. Axel von... I can't read my handwriting. Von Fet... I don't know.

56:59Jen Brister:Farquhar, yeah.

57:01Professor Katherine Astbury:Let's call him that. Axel von Farquhar.

57:02Jen Brister:Lord Farquhar from Shrek.

57:03Professor Katherine Astbury:I literally can't read my handwriting.

57:05Jen Brister:Yeah, I will let you have it because you clearly know the answer. But yeah, von Thersen. A Swedish count. Yeah, von Thersen. This for a perfect 10, Jen. Okay. What were Marie Antoinette's supposed last words?

57:15Professor Katherine Astbury:I'm sorry, I didn't mean to do that.

57:17Jen Brister:That's right, for stepping on the executioner's foot as he was about to execute. Well done, Jen. Never in doubt. 10 out of 10. Well done. I really enjoyed it. Thank you. Well, thank you so much, Professor Kate. Thank you, Jen. And listener, if you want more from Jen, we've got episodes on Emma of Normandy. And of course, we did Hernan Cortez and Melintzin. That was very interesting. And for more controversial French queens, listen to our episode on Catherine de' Medici. That one was a fun hoot. And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please share the show with your friends. Subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sounds in the UK to get episodes 28 days early.

57:48Jen Brister:But I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests in History Corner. We had the incredible Professor Catherine Asprey from the University of Warwick. Thank you, Kate. A pleasure. And in Comedy Corner, we had the brilliant Jen Brister. Thanks again, Jen. Oh, what a treat, Greg. Thank you. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we engage in some more historical myth-busting. But for now, I'm off to go and get my hands on my own delicious Swede. Keep it classy, people. I'm talking about the root vegetable. Bye! That's a good one. Thank you.

58:17Jen Brister:You're Dead to Me is a BBC Studios production For BBC Radio 4.

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