Philippe, Duc d’Orléans (Radio Edit)

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.

0:29CFO. LinkedIn has a word for that. Bull spend. Now you can invest in what looks good to your CFO. LinkedIn ads generates the highest ROAS of all major ad networks. You'll reach the right buyers because you can target by company, industry, job title, and more. So cut the bull spend. Advertise on LinkedIn. The network that works for you. Spend$250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get a 250 credit for the next one. Just go to linkedin.com slash broadcast. That's linkedin.com slash broadcast. Terms and conditions apply. Save now at Whole Foods Market. It's the summer splash event with great everyday prices on 365 brand ground beef for the grill and ice cream for dessert.

1:20They have yellow sales signs on ready-to-cook beef or chicken kebabs too. Level up with savory marinades, spices, and rubs, and complete your cookout with a crowd-pleasing cherry pie and their balsamic chicken salad. Available at the prepared foods counter. Get Summer Splash savings now at Whole Foods Market.

1:43Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are slipping into our ball gowns and sauntering over to 17th century France to learn all about Louis XIV's less famous but more fabulous brother, Philippe-Duc d 'Orléans. And to help us, we have two very special guests. In History Corner, he's a senior lecturer in history at Manchester Metropolitan University, where he specialises in the aristocracy of early modern France and its neighbours. Luckily for us, he's also an expert on royal courts and is the author of Monsieur, Second Sons in the Monarchy of France.

2:18It's Dr Jonathan Spangler. Welcome, Jonathan. Hello, thanks. It's great to be here today. Delighted to have you here. And in Comedy Corner. He's a top-class comedian, writer and presenter. You'll know him from loads of comedy TV shows, as well as from Bake Off and Extra Slice, The Apprentice, You're Fired. Maybe you've read his hilarious memoirs, No Shame and Too Much. Or perhaps you've listened to one of his podcasts, Like-Minded Friends and Pottering. It's Tom Allen. Welcome to the show, Tom. Oh, Greg, thank you for that lovely welcome. I'm so excited to be here, especially with Jonathan, whose speciality is exactly what I'm interested in.

2:50Second sons in aristocracies across northern Europe. Actually, any kind of aristocratic life, I think, because I've always fancied myself as an aristocrat. Oh, really? Yeah, which is unfortunate considering I went to a comprehensive school in Bromley. but much to my family and friends' chagrin I've often tried to pretend I'm an aristocrat and been very quickly knocked down maybe that'll change today You dress beautifully so I think you certainly pass master on the looks We're going out on the BBC aren't we? We are. Some of us like to keep standards on this broadcasting corporation so I think I would like it if all Radio 4 presenters and announcers still wore a dinner jacket.

3:38Right. I'm so sorry. Well, Greg, I wasn't going to spoil it for the listener. I was going to say, I'm so glad you've stuck to that tradition, Greg. No, I'm in a bowl gown. Tom, are you a history lover? Do you enjoy history? I have always loved history. I almost did it at university, but then rather precociously, like a second son of any French aristocrat, decided I didn't need it. I went to interview at Clare College in Cambridge. Of course applied there because I thought it was the nicest building, as any fool would, and applied for a very popular course there and did not know what I was doing and was very roundly rejected.

4:15And that sort of put me off a bit. And so I think I decided to pursue showbiz instead, which I think probably was the right thing. So, what do you know?

4:29This is the So What Do You Know. This is where I guess what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And Philippe is perhaps best known for lavish dramas about his brother, Louis, King Louis. In the film A Little Chaos, Philippe is played by a suave Stanley Tucci. In The Man in the Iron Mask, he and Louis are reimagined as twins and both played by Leonardo DiCaprio. But my personal fave, of course, is the TV drama Versailles, shown on the BBC, which I got to discuss every week as the co-host of BBC Two's Inside Versailles with Professor Kate Williams. Bonjour. But was Philippe more than just King Louis' chaotic little brother?

5:03What's it like to grow up as the spare? And how long can you really keep a menage a trois going? Let's find out. Right. Dr Jonathan, let's start at the start. When little Prince Philippe was born, who were his parents? Presumably kings, queens. Yes, that's right. So if you're a prince, generally your parents are a king and a queen. And in this case, France is often very boring in that they always choose the name Louis. So his father's name is Louis XIII. His mother's name is Anne of Austria, which is a bit confusing because she's from Spain. But the House of Austria governs in Spain. And so that's the way they call her, Anne d 'Autriche in French.

5:40So Louis and Anne are his parents. He's born in 1640, right in the middle of the 17th century almost. and he had an older brother who was called Louis XIV eventually, by the time he's called the Dauphin. Philippe and Louis were both born after over 15 years of marriage for his parents. And so there was this miracle moment in 1638 when Louis XIV is born and so they of course name him Le Dieu Donné, which is the God-given son. Oh, how lovely. That's what people said about me actually. It's quite an entrance into the world, I think. So even as the spare, young Prince Philippe, the second son, but still a prince, he's having presumably a very prestigious upbringing.

6:21He's going to be educated to be a king or does he get a different education? Well, he's being educated to be a king because in the 17th century, infants often died after only a year or two or nine or ten. So Philippe was always called the spare. He was always the next one in line. So he had to be raised the same way. They had a governess, they had tutors, they had horse riding, fencing, military history, military strategy. At the same time, there was always a bit of a limit in that Louis XIV was always the first. And Philippe always had to defer to him, no matter what. So their psychological relationship was set up from the very, very start.

6:58And when you say defer, what would that have meant on a day-to-day? Well, it would have meant that if Louis XIV stood up, well, let's call him the Dauphin, Louis stood up, Philippe would have had to stand up. I mean, that kind of thing. But we also have stories of them being boys and throwing things at each other and fighting on the floor. And then Philippe is chided because you can't strike your older brother. He is the Dauphin of France. That's, I mean, can you imagine that? Mom! I told you. Tragedy strikes very young for these two boys. France loses its king, right? Louis XIII dies and the boys are four, three?

7:32Right. So four years old and three years old. It's the middle of the 17th century. there are wars raging both with Germany and Spain. France has been at war for over 10 years. Their mother, Anne of Austria, tries to take the reins of government with Cardinal Mazarin by her side. But the old elites, the princes, the dukes, they don't want to have anything of that. They think they should be running the government as well. So they stage a battle, a civil war called the Fronde in France. And it gets to be so scary that at one point, Anne takes the boys and just escapes the countryside to Saint-Germain-en-Laye in the western parts of Paris.

8:05The other character who's revolving around in the background that I think we shouldn't forget is Louis XIII's younger brother. So there's another generation of all this. Gaston is still alive. Gaston is dashing and lovely. He's one of my favorites. But he is at the head of this rebellion. And not to put everything into popular culture, but is he the one in The Three Musketeers? I'm actually not talking about... He probably is. I'm not thinking of the novel, I'm actually thinking of the cartoon. Are you thinking of Dogtanion? Dogtanion, yeah. That famous documentary. Yeah, I don't know if that's one that you study a lot, Jonathan.

8:41You're right, there is a Gaston, isn't there? I'm aware of it, but I haven't seen it. It's dubbed in English as well. So Uncle Gaston. It's nice to know that every family has a problematic uncle, even in the 17th century. Yeah, should we get into that? The one thing we do need to address, and I'm curious whether this is gossip rumour, There is this sort of story that Philippe is dressed as a girl. Yeah. So the idea really is that while Gaston's still alive, Philippe needs to be trained how to be different because Gaston was involved in civil wars from the 1620s all the way to the 1650s, constantly rebelling.

9:17And they thought, well, let's do something different. So later historians, I think 19th century Victorian historians are to blame, said, oh, well, they emasculated him. They made Philippe gay so that he couldn't challenge the throne. And I think that's ridiculous. Because why would you do that? Yeah, that wouldn't have served the... Well, particularly given that Louis XIV could have died at any moment. And then suddenly you are stuck with, oh dear, what have we done? He's the backup plan, right? He's the future of France if Louis gets a cold. Yeah. So logically it really doesn't make sense. But I think the Victorians liked that idea.

9:51Okay. So he is a bit freer and is a bit different. And I think his character, he's written about as much more energetic, much more fun, much more unpredictable, I think. But sometimes people also critiqued him for being too frivolous, too childish, not serious enough, not, you know, you're supposed to be the second man of France. He's fun with his friends. He's having a laugh. But maybe he's not quite growing up fast enough. It's a tough one though, isn't it? Being an understudy like that. Always rehearsing for a gig, you're never going to perform. Exactly. He's never going to perform. Yeah, absolutely.

10:20I mean, there are stories of him showing up to court in a ball gown. Yeah. So one of the best memoirs we have at the time, which is very much worth a read, is the memoirs of his first cousin, whose name, guess what, is La Grande Mademoiselle. And her memoirs are hilarious because she thinks she's the most important person in Europe. And her memoirs start that way. They say, well, I'm writing these memoirs because everyone should be reading them. But in that sort of sense of self-importance, I think is so fascinating in an age when we're encouraged to be quite meek and quite sort of muted. She was anything but.

10:56So she's Gaston's daughter, by the way. She's like an Instagram influencer. Yeah. OK. So, yeah. So she's Gaston's daughter. And she's telling us that Philippe shows up dressed as a shepherdess? Yeah. Well, they did together. So they were often paired together to come to balls or dances as potential partners. you know they may have gotten married even though she's 20 years older than he but yes she describes in her memoirs how quite clearly there's an event where they turn up together as shepherdesses and they sort of parade around they seem to love shepherdesses because later on Marie Antoinette loves to dress up with good knowledge there's some like thing in the French court like what should we dress up like sort of tarts and vicars party yeah it is yeah so the upper class dressing as peasants and shepherds is quite funny oh I see that was a thing they did yeah Yeah, it's the ultimate role reversal, isn't it?

11:45It's interesting to me that we talk about like drag or we talk about kind of people wearing different clothes than society might expect of them. And it creates this uproar. But I kind of do think, well, for a long, long time, particularly wealthy, powerful people have worn the most flamboyant things you can imagine. Much more flamboyant than anything anybody would wear today. Well, we did an episode on the history of high heel shoes, which were first invented for men. Right. And so the history of the gendering of that type of shoe is really interesting. it goes back and forth you know um but um let's talk about philippe as as the spare right so he's the understudy which is awkward enough but i suppose he has to be ready louis the king does feel he gets very very unwell in 1658 and there is the possibility he's going to die yeah so this is one of the places where i think people thought philippe might become like gaston and would champion a rebellion a court coup was kind of brewing because louis the 14th was very sick and Philippe doesn't really play the role he's supposed to.

12:43There's a whole coterie of people gathering around his bed saying, now's the time, now's the time. And he just starts crying because he loves his brother so much. And if Louis had died, of course, Philippe would have become king. But I think right away it shows that Philippe is of a different character to Uncle Gaston in that he doesn't really want to seize power. But obviously in 1661, King Louis has a son, which means Philippe's role as spare, immediately he's no longer needed, right? Right. He's now the understudy to the understudy. Yeah. So he's had the Uncle Gaston treatment. Yeah, he's been Gastoned.

13:17He's been Gastoned. Yeah. Oh, no. We haven't really mentioned romance. Yeah. I mean, you mentioned the shepherdess. Does that work out? So, yeah, there is a plan to marry Monsieur with la Grand Mademoiselle. And there is another cutting line from her where she says, having seen what he is like, I think I'd rather marry no one at all. No, I thought they were great friends. Well, no, they were great friends. But I mean, she's a smart woman and she realizes that his interests already are not in women. In 1660, 1661, France needed a new ally across the Channel. So Louis XIV looked to his cousin, Charles II, who was the king of England and Scotland.

13:56And he arranges a marriage with Charles's sister, who is called Henrietta Anne, or Henriette in French. He has been promoted. He's now a duke at this point because Gaston has died. Uncle Gaston has gone, which means his title is up for grabs. And King Louis says, all right, you get to be the Duke of Orléans. Henriette is now the Duchess of Orléans. So Mr. and Mrs. Orléans, whatever the rules are. Do they have kids? Yeah, right away. Do they? Yeah. Oh. So much to everybody's surprise, probably. They have a daughter called Marie-Louise right away. And then there's a boy who doesn't live very long called the Duke of Valois.

14:31And another girl a bit later called Marie-Anne. So they do have children. So we get the sense Henriette and Philippe, there's love there, but there's also real rivalry there and petty jealousies. There's a guy called the Comte de Guiche, who's this very handsome man who comes in. Comte de Guiche. Guiche Lorraine. And Guiche is very violent. There's stories of him sort of being beaten almost by Guiche, which are a little weird. But Henriette sweeps in and takes him as her boyfriend. And the idea of, I suppose, labelling is also not really happening there, that people aren't coming out. Right. So there was no concept, really, of homosexual.

15:11There was no concept of an identity that you would choose or not choose. Right. And I think we should be clear to say this is a very upper class thing. So middle class people, they're tutting away. Yes. The job is almost always, if you can keep this inside the court, that's fine. Have your quiche. Have your quiche and eat it. Well, we go from quiche to Lorraine because actually the next man is the Chevalier de Lorraine. Oh, my goodness. On ITV at 9 a.m. Have you ever heard of the Chevalier de Lorraine? The Horseman of Lorraine? No. Yeah, the Knight of Lorraine. Oh, yeah. Is that right? No, I haven't actually.

15:51As I say, only his quiche. It's a delightful quiche. Yes, yes. I mean, Jonathan, this, I think it's fair to say, is Philippe's great love. Yes. Other men come and go in this story, but the Chevalier de Lorraine and Philippe are together for about 40 years. Really? Yeah, which I've never found an example like that in the 17th century, of two men together like that. And so the Chevalier de Lorraine is a great character because he was good-looking, he was charming, he was from a really old family, the oldest family in Europe, but he had no money at all. So he was totally dependent on Philippe. A 40-year relationship, in some regards, lovely, beautiful, wonderful.

16:29In other ways, he is married. How do you think Henriette, his wife, dealt with... Yeah, I know you did. How do you think she dealt with a Chevalier? How do you think she handled him? But she's still... Isn't she off with... What's his name? Quiche. Quiche, yeah. She's having her quiche and eating it. She's... So she's... Is he still knocking around with her? No, they've sent him off to the front. Oh, God. Once it got too scandalous, he had to be sent away. Sent off to war. To hopefully get shot. You know. Yeah. Oh, so imagine she's furious then. Yes, she's furious and the Chevalier and Henriette don't get along and they're always throwing barbs at each other.

17:08But then the interesting twist comes along when she decides really that she wants to be a lot more politically active. And so Louis XIV needed more allies. So he sent her off to England to meet with her brother. And Henriette and Charles have a tete-a-tete in Dover. They sign a treaty. she comes back to France in triumph everyone is saying what a great job she's had and this is June of 1670 she suddenly becomes very sick after drinking chicory which is sort of like hot chocolate and dies very soon after oh no John Daly here you know what day it is? neither do I I live life daily that's why I only spend on Moto Casino Moto's got daily free bonuses daily tournaments New slots added daily.

17:56And the best part, guaranteed daily jackpots. You can't beat that. So today's the day you're gripping to spend it with me on Moto. America's Social Casino. Play for free on Moto.us. Moto Casino is a social casino. We're prohibited. No purchase necessary. Visit Moto.us for more details. Download the Moto Casino app today. Must be 21 plus. Moto Casino. America's Social Casino. Save now at Whole Foods Market. It's the Summer Splash event. With great everyday prices on 365 brand ground beef for the grill and ice cream for dessert, they have yellow sales signs on ready-to-cook beef or chicken kebabs, too.

18:32Level up with savory marinades, spices, and rubs, and complete your cookout with a crowd-pleasing cherry pie and their balsamic chicken salad. Available at the prepared foods counter. Get Summer Splash savings now at Whole Foods Market. Hi, Donovan Woods here. Hey, hey, it's me, Tom Power. We're here to tell you about our brand new podcast. It's called The Big Five. So Donovan, what is The Big Five? Yeah, exactly. What is The Big Five? That's what The Big Five is all about. Every week, Tom and I will sit down with a special guest and dive into new topics, debating things like what are The Big Five farm animals, The Big Five types of hat, The Big Five guys named Paul, Martin, Revere, Mezcal, McCartney, John Paul II.

19:09The debate is settled by a listener from somewhere across the country. It's like a game show. It is a game show. The Big Five, available now wherever you get your podcasts. We have now Philippe, the father of children, no longer married, with a stable boyfriend. There's no real reason for him to remarry. Not necessarily, no. But Louis XIV only has one son. And even though the Dauphin is now 10, he still could die. Chicory happens. Chicory happens.

19:40And Louis XIV needs new allies. There's a state called the Palatinate, which controls the Middle Rhine. And so Louis XIV gets a girl from the Palatinate who is a wonderful character who we'll talk about a bit more now called Elizabeth Charlotte of the Palatinate. We call her Lise Lotta, which is not really correct. It's what the Germans call her. Lizzie with a Z. She's called Madame Palatine by the French. Lise Lotta is a fantastically enjoyable character. Her letters are incredible. They're so funny. She herself, how does she describe herself, Jonathan? So we are so lucky as historians that she left behind thousands of letters.

20:18Almost every day she wrote letters to relatives either in England or in Germany. And they are hilariously funny. And she even has a very funny letter where she says, you know, I've always made fun of my ugliness. Quote, my father and my late brother often told me how unattractive I was. I laughed it off and never cared. My brother called me badger nose and I laughed even harder. Bless her. She sounds like a lot of fun. I have a lot of time for her. Yeah. Yeah, so it's quite self-deprecating then for her. Yeah, yeah. She's sort of out there, physical, you know, strong and hilariously funny. Her letters are fantastic.

20:53But we must talk about the Chevalier again because he came back into the picture. Oh, he will not leave the picture, will he? He's not getting the memo. And 1672, he's back in the life. And he sort of, you know, ruins the honeymoon period with Lisa Lotta. I bet he absolutely hates poor old Lisa Lotta. Yeah, maybe, yeah. It sounds like she's funnier than him, which gays hate. they suffer tragedy the couple right that so they lose a child yeah so there is another boy that's born but he only lives a year or so and so they do suffer this tragedy which brings them together and i think throughout all of it even if he has these this boyfriend and other boyfriends they do feel like a really good couple for the rest of their lives so it's a very strange kind of three-way relationship but then once the child-rearing age kind of passes i think the Valier decides now is my time again, and I want to be really the head of this household.

21:45Really? Yeah. So he's quite ambitious. He is very ambitious. And all the commentators say he runs Philippe's household. The children, we should mention their names. It's another Philippe, little Philippe, Duke de Chard, and Elizabeth Charlotte, or Charlotte. So after 1677, their relationship is struggling. But we need to talk about something that might be a little surprising. We've talked about Philippe as a man of great flair and laughter. My goodness, have we? Yeah. He's also a great warrior. Warrior or warrior? Oh, that's a good point. I mean, technically, probably a bit of both, but warrior, warrior.

22:17Oh, he's a good fighter. He's a good fighter. He's a lover and a fighter. A lover and a fighter. Goodness me, yeah. He goes to war. Yes, so that's one of the interesting shocks of the life is that they go to war. It's boringly called the Dutch War in the middle of the 1670s. But at one point in 1677, he's in Flanders on his own and the king isn't there. And it's a small village called Kassel. and our good friend William III, who's also in favour of boys. Oh, I didn't know that. Yes. They face each other on the battlefield and surprise, surprise, Philippe trounces him. Oh. Yeah. So William III would, of course, be King William of England, right?

22:54Right, not yet. Not yet. So in 1677, he's the stadtholder of the Netherlands. Yeah. He's the Prince of Orange. But he will be William, as in William and Mary. Right, in 10 years' time, he will become William and Mary in this country. So Philippe wins a huge victory at the Battle of Castle, but do you know what he was doing at the start of the battle. His nails? Almost. He was adjusting his wig. The battle had started, his men were fighting and he was still in his tent. Oh, which I absolutely respect. And I think the men would have respected him for that as well. You can't go to battle, you know, with a loose fringe.

23:23Absolutely, yes. But this is Philippe's shining military moment and he gets back to Paris, back to Versailles and his brother, the king, says... Basically nothing. Oh, no. So I think in the history of their relationship, between the brothers, Louis and Philippe. This is really the high point of Louis being a really, I think, awful brother to Philippe and not treating him very well. And that carries on then for the next decade. He doesn't give him another command ever again because I think he's embarrassed and he doesn't like little brother having done so well in a battle. Okay, so what do you think Philippe does to find a new path to independence from his brother?

24:01What's his new career move? Musicals.