The Iliad and Odyssey: heroic epics from ancient Greece

23:31The Judgment of Paris, like the seizure of Helen, the Trojan horse, the sacking of Troy. Those are all in other epics that we've lost. So all we've got is the Iliad, which really just tells the story of like Achilles' small episode in the war. Doesn't tell how he got in. It doesn't tell about his death. And then we've got the Odyssey, which tells the story of just one of the Greeks of many who were coming home after Troy. It is quite Marvel Universe if there were only two films left in the Marvel Universe and you had to figure out what had happened by just watching Ant-Man. Yeah, exactly. So it's not that the Iliad and the Odyssey were the two most important poems.

24:07It's just they're the only two we have. Well, for the Greeks, they thought that they were the best. So that's why they were attributed to Homer. They thought he was the best poet. So, you know, that's why they preserved them as opposed to the others who were, you know, just by second class poets, according to the Greeks. The Iliad is sometimes subtitled as the wrath or the rage of Achilles. Right. What's he so angry about, Kyle? Well, they didn't have Wi-Fi then. so probably that right you just can't get a connection yeah yeah because I can get a connection yesterday and I was in I was in Tottenham Court Road right so imagine I was angry but I mean in 2000 years people will be singing of that Roth that Roth will be sung the Kaeli ad yeah don't mind it I don't mind that at all but you didn't set fire to a city no I left my dynamite at home but now I remember but I've just been reminded to take it with me everywhere I go.

25:01Yeah, I'm going to say it's not the Wi-Fi, Emily. It's not. Why is Achilles so angry and wrathful and pouty? Well, it's anger that is the subject of the Iliad. So the very first word of the epic is anger or wrath. So sing to me, goddess of the wrath of Achilles is how it starts. And he is angry because Agamemnon, the king of the Greeks, we're in the 10th year of the war. They've been fighting a lot. and during that process... Ten year of the war. Pack it in, lads. They're all exhausted. So ten years have gone by. They are exhausted. And they, in that process, have taken a lot of cities that they've razed to the ground.

25:39They've taken a lot of women captive as slaves. And one of those women has to get returned. Her father has come and has a bit of an issue with his daughter being enslaved. And so he comes, asks for her back. Agamemnon has to give her up. And so he, in response, seizes one of Achilles' enslaved women, Her name is Briseis. And Achilles gets really peeved by this. He withdraws from the war. And when he does that, he begs Zeus, the king of the gods, to make sure that as many of the Greeks die as possible so that they all know how great he is and that they really miss him. Wow. Not much of a team player, is he, Achilles?

26:15Big ego. Big ego. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he's giving sort of strong footballer energy. It's very Cristiano Ronaldo. It's very like me and only me. So, yeah, so he's enslaved a woman. and then the woman has been sort of liberated and he's angry and so he just sort of sulks in his tent and sort of goes... You took my slave. Yeah, you took my slave and I'm not going to fight then. Well, absolutely. And, you know, she hasn't even been liberated because she's just been turned over to another Greek. So, you know, it's absolutely, but he does, and he has kind of the biggest sulk in history, ends up causing the death of many, many different Greeks.

26:46After that, his, what we're going to call him, companion, lover, friend, Patroclus, the epic's not really clear about their relationship, but it's clear that they very, very much care about each other. They're more than roommates, aren't they? They are absolutely a deep, deep relationship between them. And he goes out into the battle because he gets really upset by seeing all of his companions dying. So Achilles lets Patroclus go to war. Of course, Patroclus tragically gets killed by Hector. Wearing his armour, right? Patroclus wears Achilles' armour. Yeah, he's dressed up as Achilles. I mean, you know, this sense of them being kind of two halves of the same person, really, really strong.

27:19He dies in Achilles' armour. That gets taken by Hector, the prince of Troy, who kills Patroclus. and in that Achilles' revenge just absolutely gets stoked. So does he think that he's killed Achilles? Yeah, he does, initially. Trick-ture. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and then they take the helmet off and they're like, oh no, it's not Brad Pitt. Yeah. Okay, and so we now get the rage of Achilles which is where he's like, vengeance mission, he's going to kill Hector. Yeah, that's exactly what happens. He gets back into battle gear, his mum gets him divine armour, he gets all dressed up and he absolutely wipes out the battlefield.

27:52He fights with the gods And eventually he ends up killing Hector, the one who killed Patroclus. And he doesn't stop there. Hector begged him for a burial. And instead, what does he do? He ties him to the back of his chariot and he rolls him in the dirt and drags him around the tomb of Patroclus. This guy's fuming, man. Yeah, he's pretty angry. He's really angry, isn't he? So eventually the gods have to say to Achilles, this is enough. You know, this is too much. Like an intervention, isn't it? Yeah, exactly. Well, his mum comes down. She's, as I mentioned, a goddess. So she comes down, gives him the message and just says, you know, Achilles, you've got to relax.

28:26You've got to just eat and drink, have some sex and, you know, just basically take a chill pill and stop doing this. That's what mums are for, you know. Yeah, absolutely. And the poem finishes not with the kind of conquest of Troy, it finishes with a funeral. It does, yeah. It ends with the funeral of Hector, yeah. And it's actually a very beautiful scene because Achilles hands over the body that he has desecrated to the father. What's left of it. what's left of Hector to Priam, the king of Troy. And there is a funeral. And there is this sort of very moving moment of grief where both men acknowledge each other's pain.

29:01It's incredible. Well, we've been focusing on this rage that does consume the epic, but we get to the end. And in fact, the gods have been very careful to preserve Hector's corpse. So actually, you know, he's been kind of kept for his relatives, for his family. That's nice of them. No, it's really good. And we get to the end of the poem and we get to a moment where in fact, Achilles suddenly has this kind of nighttime scene with Priam, the king of Troy, who comes, steals out of the city, comes to Achilles' tent, and he has this incredible scene where he kneels on the ground and he kisses the hands of Achilles, the man who killed his son.

29:35And he says, you know, I am doing this because I would like to have my son's body back to bury. And they engage in this amazing kind of scene of kindness, of friendship. They share bread together. And at that point, then Priam goes home with his son's body. And that's the end of the poem? That is the end of the poem. Troy doesn't get conquered? The war doesn't end? No, no. So hang on, it took them 15 ,000 lives to get to that? Yeah, what we've done in about 10 minutes. I reckon I could have done that a little bit quicker. Achilles is a hero, right? In the ancient Greek world, he's a hero. Just to sort of sum up what he's done, Kael, he abducts a woman, he sult when he loses her, he lets his fellow Greeks die, in fact, he asks his fellow Greeks to die, he gets his boyfriend accidentally killed, then seeks murderous vengeance and desecrates the corpse.

30:19It's not the classic hero story we're familiar with in our Hollywood movies. Yeah, it's pretty extreme. Yeah, he's not John McClane, is it? It's not Die Hard. No. But I mean, Batman was a bit naughty. He's just beating up people for the fun of it. It's sort of interesting, the word hero. It doesn't feel appropriate by our morals. So what is a Greek hero? Is it different? Well, what's interesting is that the word is the same. So the ancient Greek word that Homer uses for hero is heros. It's where we get hero from. But it means something completely different. So there's a definition of the hero that I really like, which is basically it is someone who is striving for immortality and will do anything to get that and ultimately, ironically, proves that they can't do it and dies trying.

31:07Oh, wow. Wow. Live fast or die trying. Yeah, and that's exactly what they're doing. And they're really, they're living so fast that they actually end up bringing ruin to everyone around them. So an ancient Greek hero, if you're looking at the Iliad and the Odyssey, is actually someone who can actually destroy his community in a lot of ways. But they're doing that because that is what they need to be remembered into the future. What they want above all is glory. The word is kleos in Greek, and it means people talking about you. So the more extreme things you do, the more people are going to talk about you.

31:38Yeah. Okay. Despite his rage issues, Achilles, you know, does show compassion, as we say. and we get this funeral, this reconciliation, which is kind of amazing.

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32:49Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Jewel Osco. Earn four times the points on your favorite brands now through July 28th on eligible items like Pantene Moisturizing Shampoo, Gillette Razors and Refills, Secret Clinical Strength Deodorant, Herbal Essences Hair Care, Old Spice Deodorant, Pampers Swaddler's Diapers, and Crest Clean Breath Toothpaste. Enjoy savings on top of savings when you shop in-store or online for easy pickup or delivery. Restrictions apply. See the website for full terms. That's the Iliad. That is the story of the Iliad. It's the story of Achilles, his rage, and I suppose his brief moment of humanity at the end.

33:25Yeah. End of story. Yeah. And then we're on to the sequel poem, The Odyssey. And this is named after another great hero of the Trojan War. So is this continuing where we left off? Well, it's not, because in the meantime, they've already had the sack of Troy. We've had the wooden horse being taken in. We've had Troy burning. We've had all of the captives parceled out. We've got everyone on the boats. We've had a bit of a problem with Athena, who gets very angry with the Greeks. And then they all start getting sent home. So with the Odyssey, we're just seeing that point where Odysseus is now on his way home.

33:56So I don't have to have read the first one. Do you know what? The Odyssey actually gives you a bit of a recap. I think you'll be all right. It actually has flashbacks, doesn't it? It feels so modern. Okay, so let's talk about the Odyssey. This is Odysseus. He is one of the kind of great warriors who's gone out in this Greek mission to reclaim Helen of Troy. He's renowned for his intelligence and he's trying to get home to his wife and it just takes forever. Yeah, 20 years in total. That's how long Penelope had to wait. She must have been so bored. Well, she had a lot of weaving to keep her occupied.

34:31So much weaving. Which sounds really exciting. And unweaving, of course. Yes, and unweaving, exactly. But yeah, 10 years in the war, 10 years coming home. so she's had a long wait. Well, and then we've also got his son, Telemachus, who was a baby when he left and by the time he comes back he's just about to become a man so he's also been waiting for his father to come home for that amount of time. So that's Tom Holland in the movie. Yeah, exactly. So we get this story of one man's attempt to just get home after he's already been out to war for 10 years and it starts... Where's he coming from? Western Turkey, so it's not that far.

35:02No, it's not that far. To where? Well, to the Ionian Islands so that's around the other side of Greece So he needs to go like across the Aegean, kind of around the southern Peloponnese and then up towards the Ionian Islands. So it's a trip. It's a trip, but it's not going to be more than a couple of weeks. Yeah, I was going to say like a month at sea maybe, you know, stop off, have a barbecue. But he goes into kind of major fantasy land. And when we start the Odyssey, we basically start with him on the island of a nymph called Calypso, where he has been for seven years. And that's the kind of initiating...

35:33What are you doing over there? Point on the island, yeah. Maybe not on the island. I think I once went to Gatwick instead of Heathrow. And then when you realise, you're like, oh my gosh, that's so far away. So I understand maybe like four years. You've experienced your own odyssey. Yeah. By the rest, come on. Emily, what do we mean by nymph? Well, the Greek word for nymph is nymphae, which means both a sort of minor goddess. It could also actually mean a bride, which tells you the way that they're thinking about these, These are sort of nubile young women who are potentially sort of lingering on islands around the Mediterranean and waiting to catch a man off guard and take him off his path.

36:16Right. Calypso is a sort of gorgeous eternal goddess, right? Yeah. She promises to make him immortal as well. Yeah. And she fancies him and she's like, look, we'll be lovers. Yeah. I'm more beautiful than all the mortal women, so just stay here and we'll just have sex and eat fruit. Yeah. And he's like, maybe. maybe for seven years, he sort of like doesn't leave. Prevaricating. Situationship. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. I get it. It's a seven year long situation. I've been there, I get it. Yeah, I've got to get home to my wife. Really? This time I will. This time I will. So he's stuck on Hot Nymph Island.

36:47Let's talk about the rest of the plot of the Odyssey, which is incredibly complicated. So tell us some of the plots. I mean, we can't do all of it, but just some standout. Well, what we've got going on basically are kind of three different levels at the same time. We've got Odysseus starting out on Calypso's island, and he still needs to get home. So he's got the rest of his voyage to do. We've got the suitors in Ithaca, who are basically 108 men. They really want to marry Penelope. And they have basically sat themselves down in the palace at Ithaca and just don't want to leave. And they are determined to make that happen.

37:20We've then also got the teenage son, Telemachus, who goes on his own mini-odyssey. And I kind of like this because he basically wants to be like his dad. So instead of Odysseus doing an odyssey, he's Telemachus. so he does a telemachy and he goes on a like mini daddy trip to try and find his father and goes to a couple of Greek palaces and then ultimately comes back. So we've got all of those sort of three things happening at the same time. Odysseus, of course, like when he is on his way back, we also get him stopping off at a place called the Island of the Phaeacians and he gives the story of his adventures of all of the things that happened to him before he got to Calypso's Island.

37:55So not only are we getting those things happening in forward progression, but we're also getting a flashback to what happened to him at Troy. And he has all sorts of issues. Do you know any of the kind of magical creatures that stop him? I've heard nymph already. Yep. So I'm guessing it's not one of those. What other stuff they've got knocking about? Gargoyles? I mean, that's pretty close, actually. It's not bad. Yeah? Yeah. Have you heard of sirens? Yes. Yeah, I have. What do you know of sirens? The ones that sing to the sailors. That's right. And then they get there and they eat their heads or whatever they do.

38:29What do they do when they get there? No, they don't. They just enjoy racking them on the rocks. You sure they don't eat their heads? Yeah. I'm pretty sure that they don't. I mean, Homer describes them as being like bird women. So they've got sort of the heads of women, but then they've got the kind of wings and talons of birds. See, now, I've been to London Zoo at feeding time for the vultures, and they are eating heads. Yeah. They got fed. When I was in drama school, we had to do animal studies, and I chose a vulture. and then they, this was disgusting, they threw rabbits into the vulture, not live ones, dead ones, but you watch the vultures eat the rabbits and they stand on them and then just like rip their heads off and then get their beak inside the body.

39:14Nasty. It's nasty stuff. Now you're telling me that sirens have got bird bodies. It's making me more inclined to think that they're eating their heads. So it's going to be very difficult for you to change your mind. It's a hot take. It's a hot take. Fair enough. There's also a cyclops. Oh, one eye. One eye, big old Cyclops. Sure. Who's the son of Poseidon, God of the Sea. Yeah, yeah. That's kind of a big problem for Odysseus. That's a real issue, right? Yeah, well, because one of the reasons this is a problem is... He's a Nepocyclops. He is, exactly. Well, because he really wants his father to kind of get on his side when Odysseus basically is a really, really bad guest and not only eats the Cyclops' food without asking him, but he also pierces him in the eye with a steak to blind him.

39:54Oh, come on, he's only got one. Yeah, I know. But then he does this great trick as well where, you know, he's Odysseus, so he's very clever. So he tells the Cyclops that his name is Nobody. So the Cyclops then calls out to his brothers and he says, guys, guys, nobody's blinded me, which, you know. Why are you talking about that? Yeah, I know. They're like, right, thanks, back to my shepherding or whatever I was doing. Then Odysseus, he has this fatal kind of moment of what the Greeks would have called hubris, which is this kind of excessive pride. And he's managed to escape. He's got out by climbing underneath the sheep that the Cyclops has.

40:26So he's clung under them and got out of the cave. They get onto their ship and then he turns back and he says, I want you to know that the person who did this to you was Odysseus. Now that's really bad because then the Cyclops knows exactly who to pray to his dad, Poseidon, and to ask him to curse him. And that is the reason why Odysseus ends up taking so long to get home. Yeah, of all the gods you don't want to curse you, god of the sea, when you're on a boat. No, I know. Come on, mate. He also encounters a witch called Circe and she turns his men into pigs.

40:56Inconvenient. But delicious. Do you know what I will say, though, is that after she transforms them into pigs, she transforms them back. And when they transform back, they are younger and better looking than they were before. And they don't want to eat bacon anymore. Yeah, and vegetarian, yeah. Wow. Is this the future of skincare? Well, there you go, exactly. Just, you know, a little bit of kind of pig and then back to yourself, and then you're 10 years younger. Would you do pig for a bit? How long? Okay. It's not very long. No, okay. No, it's just enough for Odysseus and her to have a chat and a drink.

41:25Yeah, but your version of not very long based on how long this is. I mean, he does end up staying with her and sleeping with her for a year. He's not very faithful, really. For a man trying to get back to his wife. No. They've got a very different version of One Night's Town. Yes, they have. There's also the sun god Helios. He gets in the way. Is that a guy that runs EGJ? No. Who's that? Different guy who is the god of the sun who has some really nice cows. The best cows. The best cows. The sacred cows. The sacred cows. and he really doesn't want those cows to be killed. And of course, what do Odysseus' men do?

41:58They kill them and they eat them. Because they're really hungry. They are really hungry. In their defense, they're really hungry. And you don't eat pork anymore. No, and they don't want to eat the fish. They don't want to eat the fish, right? Why are you showing the fish? They just, they don't really like it. They don't fancy it. Because Poseidon's been messing about with them. Yeah, maybe. Right. Basically, Helios gets really annoyed, asks Zeus to kind of have a go. And so Zeus strikes them with a lightning bolt and then Odysseus is the only one left. Yeah. Oh. So he's this sort of great captain.

42:22He's this great warrior. He's this great hero. But he gets all of his men killed. Yeah. Every single one of them. Yeah. And he only survives because he's so smart. And he's the guy who came up with the Trojan horse. He's the kind of genius strategist, right? He does get home eventually. And Penelope, his wife... I'd have even forgotten where I lived by then. Yeah. He gets back... I'll just get a new house. He gets back to Ithaca and Penelope doesn't recognise him. Yeah. Because he goes in disguise. Yeah. Well, this is the question. Does she, doesn't she recognise him? So when he rocks up on Ithaca after 20 years, Athena, the goddess, who is basically his patron goddess, because she is the goddess of cunning and wisdom.

42:57And that's exactly who he is. She meets him on the shore, and she turns him into an old beggar to disguise him. Because obviously, what he's got to do is he's got to make sure he's got all of his allies around him before he tries to get back into the house at Ithaca. He's come after 20 years, nobody knows who he is. But yeah, so he kind of comes up to the palace disguised as a beggar. And they have these really great moments of conversation between Penelope and Odysseus, the beggar, where Penelope says things like, oh, beggar, your hands look so similar to my husband's hands. Or, you know, yeah, exactly.

43:29You know, there are these moments where it's like near misses or maybe did she, didn't she recognise him? Yeah. He does effectively get rid of the 108 suitors. Yeah. Penelope sort of, she sort of sets a contest, right, with the bow. So this is another one of these convenient things that happens is that Odysseus, the beggar, happens to be in the palace and on that day she decides that actually she's going to give up on Odysseus and she's going to set a contest for her hand in marriage. To be fair to her she waited for ages. She did yeah it just is very convenient that it happened at the point that he's there.

43:59She sets up this contest and says whoever can string Odysseus's old bow and can shoot an arrow through the axes is going to be able to be her new husband. Of course all of the suitors try they fail Odysseus steps up and in this kind of amazing cinematic moment. He takes the bow, he strings it, he kind of turns back into himself and then he kind of shoots the arrow and then slaughter follows and he basically just kills all of the men. He kills 108 men. Yeah, exactly. He locks the doors, makes sure they have no weapons. He's been tired. Yeah, I know. Relax, man. You haven't seen your wife for ages.

44:35Just go do some smooching. Yeah. Killing everyone. These heroes are quite uptight, aren't they? But they stole his stuff. They stole his stuff. They've been on his land. They've been stealing his stuff. They've been trying to kiss his wife. Let it go. Okay, you know. Well, he also does something worse, which is, well, I don't know if it's worse, but it's equally bad, which is that basically he kind of inculcates his teenage son Telemachus into this kind of slaughter. I don't know this word. Oh. Inculcates. Basically, he kind of brings him into the world of being a kind of what a hero is essentially in that time.

45:02He needs to teach him how to do that. And in doing that, he basically says, you've got to take the 12 enslaved women in my house who I think weren't. I just remembered I have a book here. You're going to write it down. Oh, amazing. I love that. That's going to be your only note for today. Yeah. Start making the notes 50 minutes in. Great. This is clearly the only clever thing I've said today. I forgot there's a test at the end. So basically, he makes him hang 12 of the enslaved women who Odysseus has decided were not faithful to him. And so Selemachus has to kind of string them up in the courtyard, only, I might add, after they have cleaned up the bodies of the suitors.

45:37So he's incredibly grim. Yeah. Odysseus is meant to be the hero. and in some ways he's a very different hero to Achilles because his brain's not brawn. Yeah. And he's meant to be kind of more loyal. He's trying to get home to his wife. It's nostalgia. It's nostos, right? The pain of home. Yeah. But in some ways he's equally violent. Yeah. He gets all his men killed. He cheats on his wife and then accuses others of being unfaithful. He's quite hypocritical. Yeah. Well, and then we also end with this, not only this kind of mass slaughter, but then all of the families of the suitors come in and are enraged that he's just come home and killed everyone.

46:10108 families. He's like, have you seen my son? Yeah, sorry. Exactly. Awkward. And by the way, I'm Odysseus and welcome home. Sure. Yeah. So, you know, we have this really kind of problematic ending. But yeah, so he is in many ways like Achilles. I said, you know, a hero. We could see a hero as a destroyer of communities. And yeah, he's lost all of his companions that he took to Troy. He's now come back and he's killed everybody. On the other hand, compared to someone like Achilles, he is, as you said, much more kind of shrewd, much more cunning, much more clever. And that's what he's known for.

46:40He has loads of epithets, which are basically adjectives through the epic that describe him as like really cunning. Polymerthus is one of them, really cunning, really clever. Of course, he's got Penelope, who is equally clever, equally cunning. And she kind of matches him in his wits. So there is a different dynamic going on there. Yeah, because she spent this whole time weaving to slow down the suitors for marrying her. And then every night she unweaved everything that she weaved that day. So for 20 years, they've been sitting there going, are you done weaving yet? And she's like, no, I'm sorry, it's just taken really long.

47:08I'll do it. Give it to me, I'll do it. I don't even know how to weave. She's equally smart. And Telemethus also is very clever. The kind of parallels between Achilles and Odysseus. I mean, they meet these two former friends. They meet again. You want to do something fun. You want sort of like bowling, maybe flight club. You want an activity-based thing. Okay, so at the darts. Yeah, something like that. Well, I don't know how the darts feels to you, but they meet in the underworld. Does that feel darts-y? it doesn't feel as um interactive okay yeah no they they meet in the underworld and sure and achilles says i made the wrong choice yeah it's an amazing moment of kind of flashback and interacting with the iliad so we talked about achilles and iliad who is sort of you know he ends up all out for this choice of he's going to burn out and just you know kill everyone around him because he wants people to remember him well in the odyssey odysseus gets to talk to the spirits of the underworld and Achilles comes up and Odysseus says, oh, look, you know, you're king of all of the shades, you know, well done you.

48:11And Achilles says, I would rather be the lowest labourer on the planet than the king of all of the dead. He regrets it. Well said. But it's an amazing thing of like, okay, well, if Odysseus gets that message from Achilles, then he has sort of more knowledge than someone like Achilles did because he knows actually what is the right choices to get back home. So it then becomes even more urgent that he does need to get back home and try and have that long life version. This guy's going everywhere. We should talk about the women in these stories. You know, your wonderful book, Mythica, is about women sort of written out of the story.

48:42And we've mentioned some women, Penelope, of course, the goddesses. How does this story work in terms of gender politics? Well, obviously, we've talked a lot about how this is a story that is about the glory of men. And that's really kind of what the economy of ancient epic is. In fact, another definition I could have given you earlier when we talked about what is epic is it is the stories of men. It actually calls itself that. In Greek, that's klea andron. That means the stories of the glories of men. So women just really aren't part of that economy. In fact, what they are doing to that is that they are either helping men to do what they need to do.

49:16So think of Penelope, who helps Odysseus to basically get reinstated as the king of Ithaca, or they are obstacles to what the men need to do. And that's like Calypso and Circe, who are basically holding up. And again, I'm putting that in quotation marks, Odysseus on his way back home. So there's not that much space for them within the epics. At the same time, there are women who kind of maybe just try and get their voices heard. Helen is a really great one. We haven't talked about Helen. No. I mean, in traditional storytelling, she elopes with Paris. Like she runs away with him. It's like, woo, let's get married and run away together.

49:47But in the way you told it, it made it sound like she didn't have a choice and Paris sort of grabbed her. Well, she kind of tells different versions of the story, which is really interesting. So sometimes she talks about herself being unwilling and that she didn't want to go. at other times she blames herself and she says you know i was the reason that the trojan war happened and i feel awful about it in fact when telemachus does his mini telemachy and he goes on his trip he goes to sparta and he sees helen and menelaus like now we're after the trojan war helen's got back home to be with menelaus her first husband again really awkwardly playing sort of happy families telling stories to each other about the trojan war darling do you remember that time when you remember that time when the war you know my face and everything yeah exactly Exactly.

50:31It's really, really funny. But she actually gives them drugs to try and make them forget what happened, which I kind of think, you know, if you're Greece's biggest homewrecker, that's what you're going to do. You're going to drug your audience. Yeah, you've got to try everything, really. Yeah. So it's interesting. So Helen, maybe the agency there is tricky, but the women in this story are sometimes obstacles. They're sometimes seducers. They're sometimes goddesses. But Athena is the sort of one true friend of Odysseus, at least. She is. And in fact, she's the one who really kind of motivates the plot of the Odyssey in a lot of ways.

50:59It's the beginning of the Odyssey. It's her storming onto Olympus and saying to Zeus, you need to get Odysseus off the island of Calypso. So she's the one who kind of sets the narrative going. And then at the very end, when we've got the families, the suitors back on Ithaca who were kind of rising up and are really annoyed at what Odysseus has done, it's her who calms everyone down. So she's really kind of the one who's like taking Odysseus' narrative in check and making sure everything happens right. So there we go. We just did 27 ,000 words of poetry in about an hour. so you can condense it see yeah the sort of edited highlights I mean they're extraordinary stories and poems I mean is there anything that stood out to you anything that surprised you yeah a lot loads of it mainly the dynamite I think bring back dynamite you don't hear about dynamite anymore it's so vintage yeah there must there must still be uses for it I mean yeah maybe not on archaeological sites let's say No to dynamite on archaeological sites.

51:57Maybe in mining, but maybe less so in science and archaeology. But as a storyteller yourself, is there anything in these stories that you sort of heard and went, oh, that's interesting, I wouldn't have done that, or, you know. I wouldn't have done most of it, I will say that. But as a storyteller, I mean, in terms of the narrative, you know, the structure of it, the flashbacks, the kind of three stories spinning simultaneously. Yeah, well, I mean, it's a lot like what we do when we're improvising. We do callbacks, and you have, like, flashbacks, or you have like two years later, someone might shout from the side of the stage.

52:27Nice. Things like that. But I can't believe how long this stuff took. Is that true? Are there years like our years? We're talking about myth here, right? Like, is any of this true? Like, I think, you know, one thing that people have talked about is, for instance, the Trojan War being 10 years. In some cultures, the idea of kind of 10 years is something that you would use for endless. So it's also just a kind of way of demarcating like a really, really big and long war. Just a huge, huge war. but also 20 years away for Odysseus and he gets back and actually he's still kind of a young man, right?

52:57Because he left when he was like 21, 2 probably. You again get this kind of youthfulness so maybe he's got the Athena glow up. Because yes, he didn't have his pig. No, he didn't have his pig transformation. He gets his moment. He must stink though. After 10 years of trying to get home. Yeah, I mean he had some baths on the way back. He got bathed by various of his hosts. I bet he's wearing his own underpants. Definitely. At one point he wasn't. And at one point, he washed up naked on the shore. That's true. So, yeah. Yeah, he got new clothes. All right. Well, it's been quite the ride. So, Mark's out of...

53:30How many stars would you give the Iliad and Odyssey now? Oh, I loved it. Yeah? I'm into it. Cool. And I really want to see this film now. Good. I wasn't bothered before. Brilliant. And now you are. Can I give it a four and a half? I'll take it. I'd like... Yeah, I'd love to do that. I think Homer would be pleased with that. I think so. I'm really interested about the Achilles heel thing. I didn't know that. Yeah. That was about getting dipped in by his heel. And it's probably more of a Roman later thing? Well, it's definitely, the first time it comes up is a lot, lot later than in Homer. So, yeah.

53:57The Nuance Window!

54:02Time now for The Nuance Window. This is where Kael and I sit and snack on figs and olives and try not to turn into pigs, while Dr Emily whips out a lyre and sings to us, oh, wonderful muse, something that we need to know about the Iliad and the Odyssey. So my stopwatch is ready. Here it is. You have two minutes. Take it away, Dr. Emily. Why do we tell stories? What does the story have to do to survive nearly 3 ,000 years? I can't speak to 3 ,000 years of experience, but each time I come back to the Iliad and Odyssey in my lifetime, they mean different things to me, and each time it is a journey.

54:36As a teenager, the Odyssey to me was about Odysseus' son trying to become himself between a mother he doesn't understand and a father he doesn't know. At university, burning the candle at both ends, the Iliad was about Achilles burning out in a blaze of glory. And more recently, as a young mother, I have come to see that same epic through the eyes of his mother Thetis. The grief of losing a child too soon, the determination to do what she can for him because he matters more than anything. Literature gives you what you are looking for. And literature like the Iliad and Odyssey that have been read across many hundreds of lifetimes contain the lives and the thoughts, the hopes and the dreams, the paths taken by all the people before you who have read them.

55:16We mentioned Alexander the Great, who kept a copy of the Iliad beneath his pillow, and when he lived with Achilles, what he got from him was war, global conquest and glory, and a young death that burns the world with it. It is a pattern of destruction and a story that so many of us see around us today. But this is not the only story the poems hold. These are stories that were born in change, that from their oral origins were told again and again in different ways, according to who was speaking and who was listening. And in this, there is another Iliad and odyssey, I see. A story of reconciliation, of community.

55:52A tale of warning against losing touch with the earth and the people around us. As I see it, the Iliad ends with a scene of human hope and heart that shows even the most resolute and destructive warrior, Achilles, in the dark, in his hut on the beach, with his hands kissed by the father of the man he killed. And they cry together for the families they have lost. they break bread together and Achilles offers to Priam kindness handing back Hector's body for the humanity of burial. So let us cry together. Let us go on that journey and hang in the balance at the end and see that these poems that have lasted several thousand years remind us that it's not easy but you can.

56:28We can move past war and destruction. We can care for those around us. We can see through the eyes of others and in so doing we can read these poems as a journey towards humanity, towards heart, towards hope. Beautiful. Thank you so much. Makes me feel like I should have that at the end of my show. Everyone comes out going, yeah, yeah, that's exactly how I feel. I'm available. Oh, great. Want to come to Swindon?

56:55So what do you know now?

57:00Well, it's time now for the So what do you know now? So, Kyle, we've done a lot of talking. We've summarised 27 ,000 lines of poetry. Easy. Yeah. Do you feel confident? You didn't make many notes. No, I didn't. I sort of forgot that the book was there. It kind of blended into the table a little bit. Well, you were prioritising the oral poetry. Yes, exactly. I was taking it in. Yeah. Is it still in there? We'll see. Yeah. We'll see. Ten questions for you. Okay, here we go. Okay. Question one. Which blind poet has traditionally been credited as the author of the Iliad and Odyssey? Homer. Very good.

57:33Yes! Question two. How were the Iliad and Odyssey first communicated? Song. They were. They were sung. Come on. Sung live. Question three. What tool did Schliemann use to excavate at Troy? Dynamite. Yes. I think he used shovels too, but he did use dynamite, which is not tremendously helpful. Question four. What event supposedly caused the Trojan War? There's a certain woman involved. His eyes are rolling around his face. Hopefully they won't fall out. What event caused the Trojan War? Who running off or being perhaps taken? Oh, because what's-his-name had a slave and then thingy-bob took the slave off.

58:13That's a different one. That's the start of the Iliad. I was thinking here of Helen and Troy, but that is good knowledge. I think we've got to give him half a point for that. I'm giving you half a point. Half a point because you were remembering Briseis, weren't you? So I'll give you half of that. Question five. What does kleos mean in ancient Greek? It's what Achilles really, really wanted. It's not in your notes. Story. No, it means glory. He wanted glory and fame. You can give me half a rhyming. Story rhymes. Fine, I'm giving him half a rhyming. Yes. Okay, question six. Why do Achilles and Agamemnon fall out in the Iliad?

58:46Actually, you've already said this one. Because he took his slave off him. Very good. Question six. Come on, take my slave. Question seven. What is the name of Odysseus' faithful wife who waits 20 years for him? Penelope. Very good. Question eight. Name one obstacle of many obstacles that Odysseus faces on his 10-year commute home? He had told Cyclops who blinded him, and then Cyclops said, Dad. Yeah, that's very good. That boy blinded me. And then he did some stuff to the sea. He did. That's very good. Question nine. What famous trick did Odysseus design to get inside the walls of Troy? They hid in a horse.

59:23They did, the Trojan horse. Yes. Question ten. I think this is for eight and a half out of ten. I've lost count, to be honest. Yeah, let's say nine. Okay, let's say nine out of ten. This for nine out of ten, maybe. What regret does Achilles share with Odysseus when he meets him in the underworld? Living too fast and dying too young. That's right. He wanted a boring life as a farmer. I'm giving you nine out of ten. Yes, sir. I think that's pretty good. I think that's excellent. I'm very pleased. Let's see if you can get a bonus point. What was the Greek name for a wandering poet who got their free meals for a good story?

59:54Do you remember? Think famous Queen song. Rhapsodes. Very good. I'm giving you ten out of eleven. Yes, sir. Nice one, Kael. I'm really happy with that, actually. Well, thank you so much, Kael. Thank you. Thank you so much, Emily. Thank you. If you want more from Kael, obviously check out our Leif Erikson episode. It's, you know, more wanderings, more voyages in the Viking world and for more epic historical poetry. We've got episodes on King Arthur and, of course, the Mesopotamian epic of Gilgamesh, which is also very funny and surprising. I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests in History Corner.

1:00:26We had the incredible Dr. Emily Hauser from the University of Exeter. Thank you, Emily. Thank you so much. It's been so much fun. It's been a pleasure. And in Comedy Corner, we had the brilliant Kael Smith-Bino. Thank you, Kael. Thank you. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we ask the historical muses to sing us another song about the past. But for now, I'm off home. Hopefully, it won't take ten years. But you know what? British trains, it maybe will. Bye!

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