Why 95% Algorithmic Placement Will Kill Traditional Marketing

0:00This show is brought to you by the Global Talent Co, a marketing leader's best friend in these times of budget cuts and efficient growth. We help marketing leaders find, hire, vet, and manage amazing marketing talent for 50 to 70 % less than their U.S. and European counterparts. To book a free consultation, visit globaltalent.co. Hi, everyone, and welcome to the Future of Consumer Marketing podcast. today with a special guest, Lely Lukaki, your co-founder and chief customer officer at Looper Insights until recently. And I have a very unique insight into the world of data and content marketing.

0:38So it's a pleasure to have you. Pleasure to be here, Roman. Thank you for having me. Can't wait. And Lely, so tell me a bit more about the initial starting phase of Looper Insights. How did you get started? What was your unique insight and what has Looper Insights been doing? So how we started, we used to distribute content to digital content to SVOD platforms. And back then, pay TV was the king. So SVOD rights, subscription video on demand, sorry for the viewers or listeners who don't know, wasn't as big outside the US. So basically, we were getting big titles from big brands and studios and would sell them excluding the US.

1:20So that's when we discovered that there was a compliance issue. So on transactional stores like iTunes, Google Play, most of big studios, Hollywood studios like Warner, Disney, their content was not available to buy or rent. Big titles. So that's where we had the eureka moment. We started doing it manually, which was impossible because we're talking about a library of 6 ,000 titles in 30 countries times five stores. So manually it was impossible. So we started the idea of creating a platform that would basically grab pricing, availability and artwork for each transactional content. And then it all progressed into merchandising because the majority of our customers were interested in where their content is placed more than if the content is available.

2:10Right. So marketing was the biggest ticket there. I think the biggest thing I would do differently going forward, if I had to do it again, would be invest in good developers from the beginning, engineering. I'm not an engineer. My co-founder was not an engineer either. So we weren't aware of the nuances of coding. So we went down the more cheap route, which didn't work, and we had to rebuild it. So eventually it cost a double. So my advice is always go pay a bit more to have better quality. And in general, I think throughout my career, quick and dirty was never my route. But not knowing, you know, being more on the business side and not knowing the coding side might be a mistake you might do.

2:54So, yeah, eventually we progressed into merchandising and it started with the digital stores, which is easy, right? Because digital stores, everything, the code is there so you can replicate the digital store. But during COVID, everyone was at home and connected devices spiked. 73 % of viewing in 2021 was happening on connected devices. So we actually needed to track these devices. And because you cannot interfere with actual technologies, it's copyright protected, etc. What we did, we basically mimicked human behavior and we created this box that was like a display plugged into the HDMI, and we were mimicking human behavior and basically navigating throughout the UI or the UX.

3:41So we knew every single spot within your Samsung TV or your Magenta TV, let's say Deutsche Telekom. So then big SVOD apps, global players asked us, I want to know where my content is placed, where my competitors' content is placed, but what's my share of the pie? So let's say Samsung has 100 spots. Does Prime Video have 20 % of that? Netflix 30%. And that helped them back then navigate the editorial conversations because there's a mixture of paid editorial and now algorithmic placements within a UI. So back then, algorithmic was not as advanced. So what we gave them, we gave them the tools to actually negotiate better days for the editorial placements because they had the data that my competitor is getting more prominence.

4:29Why is that? I want the same. So that's how it started. Amazing. Amazing. A lot to unpack, but I'll start maybe with the first point that you raised because in our companies, and we have also a business around, that big fans of remote talent, but also made the same observation, especially for marketing roles that you did now for engineering, that you don't only need to go for price because it ends up costing double. So walk us maybe through the process that you had there and through the hard learnings. Devs or marketing? Because marketing... Devs maybe, yeah. So to start with, no idea, coding, Ruby, Python.

5:08It was all Chinese to us, right? So, you know, we researched a lot. We read a lot. We spoke to people. So we found this dev shop offshore in Asia. And there was this miscommunication. Another thing, if I can say, Roman, is developers, as you know, they're very like ABC. Like, you need to explain to them as if you talk to a five-year-old, not to offend them at all. It's just that the way they work, they need everything as granular as possible. So I have to admit that from our side, we had these mistakes, but we didn't know that I need to explain as a user, I need to click on this button, right?

5:45So we start there, but there was a big miscommunication or understanding. and the build was very slow. It didn't react as we wanted it. It was crashing. And then it ended up, they asked for more money to fix the bugs. And it was like a wild west for us. It didn't work out. And as a solution, we found an amazing developer, London-based. He was half English, half Chinese. I've never worked with anyone like him ever again. He just put his headphones and was working for 18 hours. And he basically cleaned everything up, rebuilt the whole platform. Also, another thing, if I may add, that I think because developers are more, they're unique, right?

6:32The way they communicate, but they rarely see the business side of what they're building. And I've discovered that if you include them in just demoing what the customer actually did with the product you just built for us, They get so excited and they get so motivated. So the good thing with this person was that he had a business argument. So he would always want to know what he built, how it was transforming for the customer, right? And that helped him actually have further ideas. So he was actually like a head of product plus engineer. And also, Roman, if I may add, a good head of product is very important.

7:13and my tip as a non-developer is if a developer or a head of product or a product person talks a lot, my gut is they're not good. A lot of good learnings there on the island with what you said. And I find it interesting that you first started in India and then said, oh, this is not working for us and then moved kind of with an embedded engineering team to Cosmo. And, you know, talking a bit more about blind spots, are there any big blind spots that marketers have or had when it comes to measuring their content's actual performance on streaming platforms? Massive blind spots. First of all, the way they would see if they're displayed on the UI was to talk to their families, especially in the US.

7:59It's all localized. So Comcast Xfinity is available in North America, in the east side of America, right? So the West Side doesn't have visibility and experience. So they would call their mother to check if the placement for, let's say, Wonder Woman was being featured. So they were completely blind. So what we offered them was basically a view of all UIs and UX, right? Then the other blind spot was they didn't know what competition was doing. And because the platforms don't take into account Apple TV or Google TV, that they are sophisticated, the traditional magenta TV of Doge Telecom, orange in France or Xfinity in the US, never communicated to their actual customers, mailing customers, the streamers, what opportunities they had to promote their content, right?

8:47And that's something we gave them. So there are things like dedicated rows, which means a takeover of a row for one title. So all the row is Wonder Woman. This was something that they didn't know they could do because one platform did it, one streamer did it. So we gave them insights into that. Another big blind spot was metadata confusion. So because there are like a gazillion companies that streamers use for metadata, there were times that you could see, let's say, a prime video show with a Netflix branding. So a big compliance issue. And that was a glitch in the metadata side. So that's another thing that we gave them visibility to.

9:30And in general, I think because, you know, connected devices in this world of viewing content was very new. They were more traditional in the way they were thinking on how to promote their content. So Netflix was very, Netflix, I think will always be ahead of the game because they completely understand the user, their user focus. So everything, the UI changes, they be testing, they're doing. So they were very good into tapping into the local traditional broadcasters like Deutsche Telekom, etc. So they were the trailblazers and they would do some amazing stuff, including incentives. So if a new season was launching, they would give one week for free for you to stream the previous seasons.

10:15So there were tactics they were doing marketing wise that they were not only great artwork and, you know, great graphics. It was also smart ways to entice someone to sign up to your platform. And how much do you think our studio is actually moving on the table by not tracking their content? A lot. And there are three ways, right? One thing that we did and the company still does is go live. When a company, when a studio has, let's say, again, I'll give you Wonder Woman as an example, launching on the 1st of December, the content, everything technically is delivered two months in advance in all platforms.

10:55There are issues where the platform will accidentally push the title live earlier than the go live date. That means piracy. To give you an idea for a very big studio, we found two incidents, one in Luxembourg, one in Denmark, a platform accidentally put it live, and they saved 350 ,000 euros in Luxembourg and around 480 ,000 in Denmark from us flagging that the title went live. And that's piracy, right? Because if the content stays live, then you're done. Another way you leave money on the table is the title actually not being lived by. So because someone forgot to switch it on. That's another big, big miss because you have to know the first day of a launch is the biggest earnings.

11:41So if the first day the title is not, you can't click buy on Amazon, you lose a lot of money. And the third way, it's merchandising. It's marketing. Because, you know, if Wonder Woman just launched and you're not promoting it, then how will I know? Another thing, Roman, if I may, and I'm sorry, I'm verbal diarrhea here, so apologies, but I think it's important. A big thing that we noticed, you know, most studios now have their own streaming apps. Disney has Disney Plus, Warner has Max. There is a very big difference on the strategies So Disney is very big on pushing both stream now or download.

12:19Warner is separate, buy now, and another placement, stream now. This is very confusing to the user. So I think money on the table is not having a holistic campaign if you have many outlets on how someone can consume your content. And what do you think that's interesting? Why are different streaming providers pushing different formats? Why do some push more on the downloads? Why some push more on streaming? What's the explanation there? I personally think it's internal. It's internal with all these acquisitions and mergers that you see in Hollywood and studios. I think internally the teams have become more cagey.

12:57That, okay, this is my limit. I'm home entertainment. I want to push for downloads because that will bring my revenue up. Then you have the streaming team saying, no, no, no, I want to push streaming, which is, I think, a big handicap that the management of studios should look at. Because for us, the biggest thing is for your content to be watched. That's marketing, right? How will they watch it if they will buy or stream? It's a separate thing. So big picture for us was always the content needs to be available and marketed for any outlet. I think it's internal, Roman. I don't believe. But everyone eventually follows the one that made it.

13:37You know how Disney, during COVID, they did the premium bought,$29.99. They were the first to do it. Everyone was like, what are they doing? It's so expensive. And now everyone is doing it. So, yeah. Yeah, interesting. So, I mean, you must also have heard concerns or objections of CMOs or executives against kind of using the product. What were some of the things that people were objecting against? And what are some of the concerns that you had to address? So the big objections we had faced was, again, on the platform level, meaning the Deutsche Telekom, and I'm giving you Deutsche Telekom as an example because you're in Berlin.

14:13It's not a fact, but they would use content from different apps. So let's say Lord of the Rings with House of Dragon. So they would have the main character of Lord of the Rings next to the House of Dragon main character and having like a fantasy world promotion. But they wouldn't take permission from Prime Video for Lord of the Rings or Max for House of Dragon. So the CMOs of the streamers were like, wait a minute, I paid a billion dollars to create this show and you're putting me next to my competitor unbranded. So big objections on CMOs. Also, it was, again, and I'm sorry because we are so focused on entertainment.

14:57All my examples will be entertainment. But for example, the Disney Plus CMO was hired by Max's CMO. So you could see how suddenly all of Max's promotion were like, you're looking at the Disney Plus promotion, the Mosaic, for example. But I think the biggest objections of CMOs was that do not use my content and my work against big competitors to push your subscriptions in your platform, right? But yeah, big mistakes as well in terms of, you know, they never understood that every UI is different. So Samsung doesn't look like Apple TV or Google TV or Xfinity or Magenta TV, right? So you need to adjust your artwork.

15:37So we had cases where the logo was so transparent that it was not visible. So users didn't know where they could actually watch this content. Yeah. Got it. And you mentioned you talk a lot about entertainment because that's kind of the home tour. So what other verticals would you say make sense to kind of, what other, you know, categories, what other verticals would make sense to kind of look into from your point of view? Everything, because now the past six months, we see automotive being promoted on connected devices, power companies. Netflix, again, super smart in Australia. They did a joint venture with the energy company.

16:13So if you were subscribing to, let's say, EDF, I can't remember the name of the company in Australia, you would get six months for free of Netflix. And this was a display ad on a Samsung TV. So we've seen all brands you can imagine, Nike. So you see fashion, you see automotive. Automotive is huge, especially in America. Like Roku has this screensaver, which is one of the biggest real estates of Roku. And General Motors did an amazing campaign where basically a car was driven in your screensaver. So I think this applies to every vertical. I think now, you know, you buy this stuff from your phone, but you stream it on your connected device.

16:56Your eyes are always there. So I think retailers are now picking up. And, you know, I think it's also the NVIDIA, right? NVIDIA was always big. But now they're thinking, OK, before the NVIDIA, before someone is consuming the content, I need to grab their attention too. Amazing. So, I mean, that's a really nice marketing campaign with the screensaver. Are there any other great examples where you say, hey, this is how the smartest content marketers use placement data to kind of beat their competition? Other examples. Another thing in regards to the previous, I want to say, I don't know if you saw, Tobi is a big Avot platform owned by Fox and they had the Super Bowl, the biggest event in America.

17:36So they had an interactive thing in the live streaming that, you know, the speakers, the players, you could buy everything you would see on your screen with a click. So there was a hover over on my T-shirt and you could buy it. Other big things that content marketeers need to know. I think it's the algorithmic problem now, right? So no matter how good your product looks, no matter how big the content is, if the metadata are not good, it's not going to be picked up from the algorithm. So, you know, three years ago, four years ago, you had the personalization issue, right? That Romain's experience is different than mine, but it was not sophisticated.

18:15Personas are not as sophisticated as people think are connected. It's mostly, you know, has watched Prime Video daily. That's a profile. Hasn't watched, you know what I mean? But now with the algorithmic and Google is like 95 % algorithmic. This is somewhere that content marketers need to be very smart into actually using the data they have smartly in order to push the metadata feed and the algorithm will pick up their content. I think that's the biggest. And also, one thing, Roman, is at Blooper, we had the media placement value, which basically is a weighted share of voice. So the higher the content is placed, the biggest the score it is.

18:58So with this metric, we were available then to put a dollar value so you could understand how much would this editorial placement actually cost if I had to pay for it. So then you start understanding by correlating your performance data, right? How many streams did Wonder Woman have that day? You can start correlating the placement with the performance and see that actually maybe I don't need the top banner. Maybe I need just the third row that's top shows because this is driving the viewing. So I fully agree with you. Data, data, data. You know, I'm more of a creative, but I think everything is data driven now.

19:39And by using AI as well, we'd be helpful like agentic AI to start creating models, basically. Amazing. And that would be more kind of my follow up question. So what are the most efficient or most useful applications for AI, Agentekei, when it comes to kind of content placement, when it comes to the use cases of your clients? For me, it's mainly the performance versus merchandising because we're talking about millions of investments, right? So it's like, and everyone now with what's happening in the world is closing their budgets, right? So correlating performance with merch, with marketing is massive and no one was doing it before.

20:19So that's a huge thing. But for us also, we've discovered that the majority of big companies, because it's a very new thing, streaming, they don't have data themes. They don't have data times, right? So there's no way for you, you know, I give you like bulk of data, but it doesn't mean anything to me, right? Because I'm not an analyst. So I think agentic AI can be used there to basically start training it, to tell you, okay, did Wonder Woman perform yesterday on Samsung TV? Yes. Okay. Did I have many subscriptions on Macs that day? Yes. Boom. So I love agentic AI. You know, I'm starting to play a bit and see, you know, if I can't work on the code, obviously, but I think it can do wonders and it can actually, if there's this misconception that I will lose my job because of it, I think actually it will help you see the big picture right because you know it's important to not get lost the force for the tree right so for me that's the biggest it's you have to correlate in even automotive right or fashion correlate did i get buys from this placement on samsung was it worth it and also to start looking everyone does this mistake that they focus only on the big players like that, you know, Samsung is the biggest TV brand, right?

21:39Everyone has a Samsung, but don't neglect the smaller players because they're thirstier, which means that they will give you a lot of stuff, a lot of prominence, a lot of marketing opportunities. And from experience, I've seen like there's Vida. It's a European brand, let's say, which is a very cheap, but very good quality TV. Like it's exponentially growing. So don't neglect the small players because they actually you will work you will do miracles on marketing and they will actually grow their base and how do you see the relationship between traditional advertising content placement evolving is there going to be a big shift or what's the relationship i think so i think so and i think you're right everything seems more old school more tv style of advertising but what tool we did that you could actually buy everything you would see on your screen i think was genius it was super easy click.

22:34So I think everyone needs to start shifting because, you know, the new generation, their attention span is so tiny. You know, I grew up with TV. I know traditional advertising. It's okay. You can capture me, but I'm not your target audience. The youngsters need, you know, you see TikTok and it's very important to make it engaging, interesting. And I think, you know, Netflix is good at that as well, right? The live content they're doing and the way they're promoting their like content, I think it's brilliant. Okay, amazing. So five years from now, what will separate kind of the screening winners from the losers and how they approach content visibility, how they approach measurement from your point of view?

23:15And you led with the Netflix example. Are there any other big players that are really innovating? For sure. I think Disney Plus, I think, and now they acquired Hulu. They have ESPN. I think for me, there needs to be a consolidation in terms of sports. In Europe, we are luckier because, you know, it's usually the national broadcaster plus, but in America, you have literally five different streaming apps or streaming basketball, let's say, right? Yeah. So I think content is always king. And now with the writer's strike that kicked in, now there's no content. So everyone is shifting their attention to European content.

23:54So I think that's where Europe will win. But I think content is king, but also you need to enhance your metadata. data you need to be way more data savvy because algorithms are taking over according to a very big global asphalt in three years from now there will be no editorial so it will be either paid media and algorithmic so if you don't have a marketing budget you need to be good with data so yeah that's what i think roman okay amazing so maybe second last question what's next for you i I mean, you've been in this industry for so long, just recently kind of faded out. What are you excited about?

24:32So at the moment, I do have a holiday. I have like two, three ideas in my mind that I might see. You know, it's a luxury, you know, working with very good customers. You have the opportunity to pick their ear, right? So you don't have to fail, big and fail. You can fail before you build it, right? So, yeah, I think for now, I love this industry. Like, I love it. But I agree with you. I think I want to open up a bit more to other verticals because I don't think it's going to be only owned by entertainment apps anymore. I think it's going to be every big player. And the coolest promotions I've seen have actually been from non-entertainment on display ads.

25:18So, yeah, I don't know. I'm excited for the future. That's good to hear. And if there's anyone that's kind of a young professional in the marketing field, will it be a recommendation for that type of person when it comes to, you know, what to learn, what to focus on, how to approach growing? For me, never lose the creative side of marketing, because I think that's what's the cool thing about it. And I always love marketing people because, you know, I'm like, wow, how did they come up with this idea? But they need to be more data focused now. So I know it might sound far-fetched, but I would do some data courses if I were then.

25:57Because everything is data-driven. And, you know, I read someone that AI is not your enemy, but they need to be your friend. So, you know, start playing with AI and data. It will give them an advantage, I think. But never lose the creative side of it. I really think that's something that AI can never do. Amazing. Well, it's been a really big pleasure. Thank you, Roman. Getting a big insight into this subset of industry and to the entertainment business. So wishing you the best of luck and all your future endeavors. Thank you, Roman. It's an honor having me. Thank you so much.