819. - Stephanie Danler

20:47Jason Stewart:No, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I mean, it may have been Chris's fault for all I know. I don't know. I just wanted to - It wasn't Chris's fault. The invite was on one day. Thank you, Stephanie. Believe men. Sometimes. If women say you can, you can believe one man one time. There were two. They were on my calendar twice. It was a crazy week. I can't I no excuse no no I'm I we're just we're just we're just kidding it happens all the time you're just torturing me it doesn't happen all the time people don't miss podcast recording oh they do no it I would prefer the straight up miss because then I believe that you just fucked up the calendar versus the canceling 30 minutes before that that is worse to me than not showing up bananas I try to do neither but now you guys I will live in infamy within your universe as the person that no called no showed no no no no we have other people that outrank you as far as bad behavior yeah so you're fine you're totally fine well that that i believe but yeah we were supposed to talk and i think the reason that i'm here well i don't know why i'm here but the reason ostensibly is that the john gregory dunn book i wrote the intro for is that true or is this just for fun that's why they that's why yeah they got in touch with me but i'm a i'm ahead i've read both your books like i've read like i love the memoir i love sweet bitter so i'm i was um i i was happy to have an excuse to to talk that is so fun i i also watched the tv show oh my god you guys i was listening i did rachel kushner i did paperback event with her like two weeks ago and i had listened to her episode and one of you guys was like yeah i haven't read the book and i was like oh it's like that they don't read the book i try not to unless it's something i'm interested in we do three pods a week we do three episodes a week so and i'm already not a huge reader wow it's it's hard so sometimes i will i will do audiobooks i will use ai technology to summarize books wow you know i'll listen you know it's it's not easy we're not in that business really you know what i mean like it's not of course i i hear that i hear we want we we're here we're in the stephanie business not the not the book business okay exactly it's totally different No, you guys are in the hangout and shit talk business.

23:00I love it. Maybe you feel like this too, but I feel like reading is a sort of luxury, like a pleasure. And if you only have so many hours to do that, you have to only choose books you want to read. You know what I mean? And just because I want to talk to somebody doesn't mean I want to read their book. Well, Chris is saying he doesn't want to read your book. He read them. No, I've read her books by choice. I bought them. I bought them. I do think you have to be discerning, but I like disagree about the luxury. I think that if you are a writer, but even if you guys are thinkers ostensibly, right?

23:33What do we call you guys? That's very nice of you to say. That's very nice of you to say. Reading is part of your job. Yeah, no, I think, I do think it's part of our job for sure. I totally agree. But I guess there's just like, if I'm going to have an hour a day, let's say, you know, to read, I can't, I just can't do that. Also, if I'm not interested in something, I just can't do it. Like I cannot make myself do it, which is how often do you pick up a book and get 30 pages in and be like, this ain't for me? Multiple times a week. I get sent like so many books, which like my eight year old self is over the moon, but I'm, I like read 10 pages and I'm like, yeah, this isn't, this isn't going to do it.

24:12Yeah. You got to know.

24:13Jason Stewart:Yeah. I was actually, it's interesting you asked that Chris, cause I was going to ask, you know, average how many pages do you have like a rule or is it just like, you know, when you know, you know, when you know, sometimes, you know, five pages in. sometimes it takes a hundred. I will say I recently went to Knausgaard. Like I fell into the Knausgaard universe after shit talking for so many years and being like, oh, this is like the new David Foster Wallace is the book that like dudes are handing girls to be like, here you go. Like, this is what the world's really about. And I started the book again at this age of my life, 41 years old and I it's a masterpiece he's perfect it's just like it's the best book I've ever written are you talking about my my struggle my struggle my struggle book one I I just finished it so it took you years and then finally he's like I'm gonna write 300 pages about like going down to the forest to get wood with my friends and having a beer guy stuff that was one of my favorites he's done it again so first of all Jason you did read a book once because you read that book.

25:18Jason Stewart:I'm a big fan of his writing. He's, he's, it blew me away. I don't have a lot of faves, but, and yes, I think because my dad just died and he was like a terrible addict, alcoholic, like that part really, really struck me. Usually I'm just like, Oh my God, men and their daddy issues snooze. Like I can't stay awake. But the part you're talking about when he's just trying to go to the new year's party to see a girl, I was like, how is this? This is like a 400 page Seth Heathen is so good. I mean, I think that writing something off, no pun intended, and then kind of going back to it years later and liking it is a nice, that's a nice thing.

25:58Because I write stuff off every single day of my life. And I hope that some of it will come back and be good eventually. Well, you have to have kind of a mystical, like, it's going to come to me when I'm ready attitude about every book. Because what you're saying, life is so short. like we're not going to get to read all these books that we want to read time is precious our attention is gone so like it will find you if it's meant to find you it will find you i think

26:24Jason Stewart:writing sounds more fun writing sounds more fun than what reading no oh god because if you if you if i read something i'm just like the chances of me enjoying something i read it's low but if i write something then you get the the joy of other people saying wow you've done it again brother you know what i mean no i don't i do not know what you mean and i think that you all i'm that maybe that's a roundabout way of asking you can you teach me how to enjoy reading uh it sounds like you just have really exceptional taste and most books fall below that bar i have i have plenty i have plenty of proof that he doesn't but we'll let that we'll let that go on we'll let that Stephanie, you're not wrong.

27:07Jason Stewart:You're not wrong. Wise to go down that road. It's crazy. We just met, but you totally nailed me. You totally nailed me. Okay. So you said, not to bring it down, you said your dad just passed away recently-ish? Yeah, he did. Yeah. And I've written about it. So we can, I mean, it's fair game. So that's probably very bittersweet. No pun intended. Yeah. So I wrote about my dad's addiction in my memoir, Stray. He's a serious crystal meth addict and alcoholic and relapsed for, you know, 20 years. And I haven't really had contact with him in a long time. But he died in December, the way that addicts die alone and surrounded by drug paraphernalia, like really ugly, brutal stuff.

27:56And if you guys have, since you've read my struggle, you'll know that it's just like this sort of descent into like filth and loneliness. It's just so tragic. But he was a terrible father. And it is one of the best things that's happened to me in a long time. And I feel like there's a grief community, but sometimes like it is a blessing. Like he was going to hurt someone. he like he wanted to die essentially and so it also freed me up to write this essay about him for my sub stack which i hadn't been able to write because i was going through a divorce and i didn't know how to write about it and i was like mid like identity shift and then all of a sudden my dad died and i was like ready to write let's go i mean because it was it was meant to be you were just waiting whether you like realize it or not well i realized i mean yeah every time the phone rings right you're like okay what's what's happening now so you were still in contact though but you just weren't no we didn't know like i didn't we didn't talk but like every now and then a relative would call um i don't know if you guys have been close to addicts but it's it wears you down quite a bit i mean 20 years is a long time you know like that's that's like an eternity but i'm sure there were ups and downs did he ever stay clean for a long period of time or not really not really no i mean honestly it's crazy it lasted that long i know he i was like he's never gonna die this like all my friends parents are expiring under tragic circumstances and this guy is just like going and going but um yeah you know you're he was 70 years old and two system couldn't hold it anymore yeah i think that happens yeah for sure i mean i i think it you can only take so much especially i think that with someone like that who's been doing it for that long i think that the product changes quite a lot you know what i mean like this is yeah even if you just look at like weed it's fucking turbo now like if you were smoking weed 30 years ago you'd be like what is this shit you know what i mean i i'm assuming that's true in some ways with cocaine and meth and whatever you know it's it's well it was it was like an opiate-based overdose and what's crazy is when you get the autopsy it's like the most impersonal sobering like you're just a body being examined by a stranger you're like six foot one like this mole on the thigh like it is so disorienting but i'm like did he know he was taking fentanyl sure we don't know did you have to go you had to go like identify the okay okay no no no i don't i don't mess with that he's he's on his own i don't mess with all that body identification shit nah you can miss me with that leave it to the pros leave it to the pros but i think that it's been like an incredible

30:50Jason Stewart:uh shift for me after he passed was there something that you may have subconsciously not wanted to put out publicly about him that you felt you were able to once he was no longer even though he probably wasn't reading all of your work. Oh, no, you guys. He loved my tiny fame. Loved it. I once went to a reading at Powell's in Portland. Okay, this is book one. And this is a true story. And I think I put it in the memoir. I alluded to it, but I get there and everyone's sitting down and the bookseller's like, oh, your dad's here. I'm like, who? come again and he had been living in in washington state for two years i had no idea and he had been coming to powell's talking to the booksellers being like my daughter's book's coming out my daughter's book is coming out and they're like steve hey what's up and i was like that's really funny that's really funny so you had to so you had to sign a copy for him yeah special okay so then he was reading yeah he he was reading it and he is a you know it's like a classic narcissist thing.

32:03I think people, when you write about them, first of all, I would be so horrified and I feel awful for all of these people that I've written about. But it excites a lot of people too. They want to find themselves in the work. I might like to find myself in the work if it was a little bit hidden, but if it's straight up, I'm basically saying your name, it's a little bit of a different equation. I know. It's really like a form of bullying, right? It's really like you have the pen and you have so much control and like you can really wound people I feel it how aggressive it is I didion actually said like writing is an aggressive act and I've always like that's always come back to me in various contexts but like definitely memoir writing is

32:48Jason Stewart:hostile hostile takeover and and is it is it it's always sound or it sounds interesting or fun to really try to find that fine line where you don't go full like capote mode where you're destroying relationships but like how far you could take those things without you know and what kind of language you use to make it seem okay is it fun to do that yeah i think that there's some you know i love gossip and so there's something there's like a welcome home sis welcome home yeah i know um that's like my sport and i like it without like hurting people like in you're talking about answered prayers and lecote bath 1965 that are the trim and capote story like that's destructive gossip but like there's a way to play um and i think that a lot of non-fiction does that really well so yeah of course i i just think there's levels to gossip where it's it's juicy and meaningless is the sweet spot.

33:51Absolutely. That's the number one zone that I'm trying to find at all times. And then it can go badly from there if you take it too far. I think with care, right? Even if you're discussing someone's drinking and their infidelities and their gambling problem, is it with care? Or is it like you are not rooting for this person? You are expressing belief.

34:13Jason Stewart:So the care would be like, it's fine that they're taking ozempic she didn't need to at all but you know she is like is is that a good it seems like that's the the hot gossip topic going around in my world that's not gossip everyone's taking ozempic that's like that's just it's transcended like truly you sit down to lunch with someone and you're like whoa you look amazing and they're like i do yeah what's the percentage of people that outright admit it and then the other percentage who are like yeah i've just been oh between the gym doing a lot of intermittent fasting between women it's where it's full on it's full yeah i mean with the fellas if one of my homies sat down i was like i'd i was on a zempic i would be happy for him but i would also clown him obviously a little bit i I mean, you have to, that's the, that's the, what you have to do, but I don't think it's controversial either.

35:11Really? That's what I don't, we talk about it a lot because I do, Jason, I'm the same way. I hear about it every fucking day. And I'm like, at a certain point, the shine is gone. Like, I don't care anymore. It's not interesting anymore. And it's like, it's the way that people were like misusing a medication that was specific for something else was really kind of taboo and exciting, but we're just so far past that. Hey, if you're not misusing medication, you're doing it wrong. Exactly.

35:38Jason Stewart:I'm not a drug abuser. I'm a drug misuser. I simply read the label wrong, and it's a positive side effect. See, that's when it's fun. Just doing something your doctor told you because you just had a baby, and you want to drop 10 pounds. That's boring. It is boring. No, it is boring. It is boring. Well, I wrote down some notes for when you were originally going to be on, and I forgot why I asked them, so I'm just going to randomly go through them. Are you still taking Prozac? No. Speaking of drugs? Okay. That is such a good question. That's like a deep cut from a craft essay I did for the Suwannee Review about how - If you say so.

36:11I - Yeah. Chagibichi went behind the paywall. Jason's actually a Suwannee Review subscriber, so he's been on this for a while.

36:20Jason Stewart:I dead-ass have no idea what the Suwannee Review is, but I read that, huh? Okay. Carry on. But no, it's such a good question because the point of the essay was that - 30 more, just like that. Cured my anxiety, but I couldn't cry, I couldn't cum, and I couldn't write.

36:44Saying how you feel out loud is terrifying. But that's what Hinge's new free audiobook, No Ordinary Love, is all about. It's a collection of real love stories about five couples that met on Hinge. The stories are written and read by Tembi Dinton Hurst, Nicola Dinan, Curtis Garner, Raven Smith, and Rufy Thorpe. I, Hunter Harris, wrote and read the foreword. The audiobook's out now. Give it a listen. I'm Gwen Washington from Snap Judgment, the storytelling podcast from KQED. Imagine, an iconic piece of paradise overrun by one of the most horrific fires in recent memory. Everyone flees, everyone, except one person who decides to fight the flames alone.

37:29The moment when nature, institutions, and technology fail at the exact same time. That's all systems down at New Snap Judgment Miniseries from KQED. Tap to listen now. When you think like an athlete, setbacks don't stop you. But mindset alone doesn't get you moving again. That's where Icy Odd steps in. Ice works fast. Heat makes it last. So when the rest of the world settles because of a setback, Icy Hot accelerates your comeback with fast-acting, powerful pain relief. Icy Hot. You're so back.

38:12And I was like, oh, this is the key to happiness. Not having these crises of passion and panic. I'm just going to bake and read for the rest of my life. But I write for work. So it became dire pretty quickly. And I do, I think I've talked to a lot of other writers about it and tons of people are medicated and it's incredible when it works. But that like, I don't give a fuck. The like, the loss of the ability to have sharp edges and like be in like this anxious frame of mind where you're trying to connect things all the time and how do they fit together? and then it comes out in like an essay um when that's gone it's just like i'm gonna nap i'm not even gonna masturbate because i can't come i'm just gonna nap i'm gonna read i'm make muffins which is a cool life i mean that's cool what what kind of muffins are we talking about not to get in the weeds but well you can talk to my kids about it it's this like gluten-free healthy banana that i add chocolate chips to don't don't feed those kids gluten-free shit unless they're celiac That's child abuse.

39:22My ex-husband was gluten-free, so I got in the habit. So he says, lying ass money. I need to see the blood work. For sure. You know what? Actually, praise gluten. This is my house now. I can have as much gluten as I want.

39:37Jason Stewart:You could go to the store all by yourself. Go to cookbook, get that ancient loaf. My God. Do I look rich? What? Not the cookbook loaf. I think you look rich enough. You look rich enough. You look rich enough to buy an$11 loaf of bread, Stephanie. I think you could do it. It is not$11. It is$18. Okay. Maybe I was looking at the bachelor loaf. Maybe a half loaf. Can I just get a half, actually? No, it's literally a half a loaf of bread is called a bachelor's loaf. That's smart, though. I mean, you don't want to waste it. Yeah, Stephanie, when we had James Fry on the podcast, he talked about how he goes off of his medication when it's time to write.

40:21Oh. Album mode. He coordinates it with his doctor to basically wean off of it and then go absolutely crazy for like three or four months and then like get back on it, which seems so dangerous. Yes, diabolical. But after talking to him for an hour, it's like, oh, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. You know what I mean? Yeah. No, people have like psychic breaks when they go off their medication, but whatever works for him.

40:46Jason Stewart:But also what a great way to finish that book. If the antidepressant keeps you from being able to write and come, then you're like, oh, I'm just going to get off of Prozac for two months, do a lot of coming as well as finally finish that. Restricting come and then giving it back to you is enough to get the book finished is all I'm saying. I think they might be related. don't talk to her like she's an incel. Do not talk to her like she's an incel. Well, Chris, she has no problem finishing books. I'm kind of talking to you right now.

41:20Jason Stewart:I am definitely an incel, so thank you for approaching me with the correct pronouns. It's not easy to finish a book is all I'm saying. Some of us might need a bigger motivation. And name a bigger one than come. Yeah, I need a gun to my head. I need you to stand next to me with a loaded weapon. I think this is the only way. What else you got there? From the deep internet. Stephanie, do you do any impressions? What? No, come on. You don't do any? Do you do impressions? I do a few. I don't want to boast. Which race do you want, Steph? Dude, don't do accents. No accents. I'm not here for that. I'm not on my podcast.

42:04Jason Stewart:Well, I wrote that question down for a thoughtful reason, to be fair. Not on my hour with you. I thought you were trying to get me to do my Kermit the Frog, Jason. I thought you were just baiting me. Oh, yeah, yeah. Go ahead, Chris. Come on. Let's hear it. Hi, I am Kermit the Frog. Pretty good. That's pretty good. We'd have to run it by my kids, but yeah, that's fine for me. Do kids still watch that stuff? Does it still go? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. There's all kinds. There's the original Muppets. You can get anything. Yeah, yeah. No, I know you can get the original. I just didn't know if kids were like, this ain't Roblox, I don't care type shit.

42:38They watch what you tell them to watch. Hell, yeah. hell yeah who's the boss of this damn household okay i got it gluten yes ma 'am and old children's show yes ma 'am whatever you say okay here's another one do you feel like your brain at one point in your life was broken in a good way yeah first of all i i feel like my brain was just broken when my marriage ended and we had to like readjust our entire life and then I came out of it and it was very fulfilling. My dad died. I went to Mexico for a week. I was reborn and I'm stoked on life. But I do think that your brain can break from sex in a wonderful way.

43:26Are you saying that the pool boy at the hotel in Mexico changed your life? What are you trying to say? No, no, no. Separate stories. We're talking about when you go cross-eyed? I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I get confused. Okay. So you guys can't have multiple orgasms, like in the way that I'm talking about. But if you are coming consistently for like an hour, like multiple, multiple times, when you're done, you are, you're lobotomized. You are just like, you are in the upside down and you're just like, uh, so deep put her

43:58Jason Stewart:ass to sleep in the words of ice cube. so you're saying that you were rewired in a good way and now you feel reborn it was a hard a hard reset with dick well that a hundred percent jason don't assume that it was a man don't assume that it was a man it wasn't no it was it was a man but i'm sure a woman could do it just as well if not better but slay mama i think like just that is a way that you can break your brain in like a pleasant senseless self-annihilating with things i don't want my brain to be broken a nut for the ages a nut for the ages you do no i don't i'm good i'm good why not chris you've got to get out of it you're so heady both of you but like all of us i don't i don't really i think i've left those opportunities in the past i think i am i am post i can't because i think i would need drugs and that's the that's the problem i can't i'm sober so i can't do drugs you can do it with drugs i can't do drugs so i feel like i've already so then you can so but maybe you can do it with sex maybe you need to have so many orgasms i don't yeah man i don't think it works the same way and i i think that it's all i'm sorry for you you could at least try i can try that's true i could try if nothing else i could try yeah and then the other brain broken one was just you know like your classic crisis of a life and that was that was okay too just took a long time crisis of life I like that.

45:28As far as if I'm going to, I would rather have a crisis. Crisis has worked. You know what I mean? Crisis is work if you handle it the right way. The man who can't do drugs is like, I love a crisis. Well, I feel so much. I honestly believe this. Once you like OD and wake up in the hospital, you're sort of like, what could be worse than that? Like what's going to happen to me? Really? Like what, what, what could actually be worse than this for the people around you?

45:53Jason Stewart:That was your hard reset. Yeah. Yeah. I just don't, I think you realize that like, oh, well, no matter what happens from now and out, it's going to be fine. If I can get through this is sort of how I think a lot of people think about it. I felt that way about this marriage ending, not because it was like such a perfect union, but more because I realized that my kids were going to grow up in a divorced household. And coming from my childhood, it was really, really hard to accept. And so, but there is a little bit like I can get through anything at this point and to see the way that my life like recalibrated people in the first like six months of that they were like you're gonna be great like you are gonna come out of this and you are gonna be like a goddess an incredible mother you're gonna have more time to write but like things kept getting worse and worse and worse for so many months and I was like oh shit I'm like the one person who never gets better fuck like and then it did get better in Mexico with the pool boy.

46:55Yeah.

46:55Jason Stewart:What exactly? And an hour and an hour long treatment. What was it? Okay. I need to know more. What, where in Mexico was this going down? Nobu hotel. What's going on? You were, no, you know, she was at some like, she was at some real, like real remote shit. Was there ayahuasca involved? No. Oh no. You guys, it was more that I went away on vacation for a week. By yourself? No, with my boyfriend. and friends and my dad had just died and when i came back i was like wow i'm i'm new i am reborn it doesn't often work like that and i was in todos santos which is not that remote it's like two hours outside of cabo and i went to bed at 8 p.m every it's like the most sober like healthy trip to mexico i've ever had but i don't know something shifted after thinking for months and months and months it wasn't going to shift i had a call with a friend yesterday who was just like my full-time job right now is getting out of this depression which is like something that only rich people say but i i'm like yeah man you can't force it just one day you wake up and it's better and you're like oh that was fucking crazy and yeah there's nothing you can do no i agree was this person a man or a woman definitely a woman come on come on what male male depression is an epidemic chris yeah yeah we're so sad we can't make friends now i've heard but steph i said how much do you talk on the phone you feel like somebody who's rolling calls uh chat yeah yeah yeah chatty you're just you're walking you're walking around the house you're having you'll do any podcast multiple hour long yeah yeah what is this again oh yeah sure sure sure i'll do it i have no idea i'm like i have no book coming out like what do you think what are we talking about like let's chat dude i I clarify what I think via conversation.

48:50And I do think that like writers are always writing, right? And I've heard so many writers say, I write to figure out what I mean, what I think, what my values are. And I'm like, I go out to dinner to do that. Like I need, I am talking, talking, talking, and it is the richest part of my life. And I just think that if you are not living, your writing gets very stale and insular and academic in a way where you're testing these ideas out for this like little, little tiny crowd. And you need to be out in the streets talking to these like psycho LA narcissist and psycho New York. Don't talk about your friends and loved ones like that.

49:28That is not, that is not nice. No, I love them. I love them too. You need them. I can't not live anywhere but these cities because I love the crazy. I need like the craziest people possible. You haven't lived in New York for a long time though. You only left New York seven years ago, right before my son, my son was born. Oh, not that long. Cause I was doing my show there and I was very pregnant. I was living long distance from my then boyfriend, baby daddy. And I was like, let's have the baby in New York. Let's like, let's do this. I had really not given up. and then I was like 34 weeks pregnant and I was like oh I give up okay let's go let's go back to

50:07Jason Stewart:LA sure when you're when you're going to these LA dinners with your psychopath friends bouncing ideas off of them what are the two martini spots in town for you you know I go to Prado and Echo Park early before it gets crowded I go to um the Capri Club in Highland Park early before it gets crowd these are the these are the wrong these are the wrong answers stephanie but keep going why okay so so you're going to east side spots at four you're doing the 4 p.m houston's martini as well or is it just i love houston's beyond um but yes and then like everyone goes to pharmacy devon which is right down the street and gets afternoon wine that's more like the mommy spot i've never heard of this in my life pharmacy devon i've never heard of that stella owns a tiny little wine shop and wine bar in the intelligentsia stella takeover on sunset and it's got these little tiny tables and it's a garden and any bottle of wine in there you can open up and all the preschool mommies are there at like 3 34 o 'clock like drinking rosé before they go get their kids so if you guys are looking to pick up those moms now i just told you i'm looking to i'm looking to avoid those people at all costs actually but i'm glad to know i'm glad Those moms listen to our podcast, so we need them.

51:31Jason Stewart:Oh, they can listen to the podcast. That doesn't mean I need to hang out with them. That's two different things. No, I'm joking. He hates moms. No, no, no. I just sit biased against moms. What about martinis specifically, though? I don't drink martinis. Oh, you don't? I thought you were a martini drinker at some point in your life. No, I'm a Negroni girl. I get Negronis. Got it. No, I've watched those people drink martinis, and I'm like, do they know that that's just gin? I mean, I know Negroni doesn't really have non-alcoholic components to it, but you are drinking a bucket of gin. That is like me when I was 21.

52:05It's nasty. I think that's the whole point. Oh, no. I know what you were. You were a vodka soda and a little cocaine. I know you were. Never. Never? Gin and tonic and cocaine. Come on. I apologize. I apologize. Vodka soda is too chic. Like, gin and tonic? That's a disgusting drink. Oh, my God. It is disgusting. I agree. So sweet. I feel like we were in New York at a similar time, so I'd love for you to run down your real spots from the heyday.

52:32Jason Stewart:Were you working at Roberta's back then in the prime time? I never worked at Roberta's. I worked at Union Square Cafe. Got it, got it. And I used to go to Roberta's before it was even a restaurant when they first just had the pizza oven in there because my boyfriend lived at that spot in Bushwick, which there was nothing around. I remember. I fucking hated going there. It was so far. Pizza's delicious, but it was so far. Had to take a Hummer to get in there. It's so far, and it was so desolate at night. It was so, until like, and now obviously it's a circus. Dude, when I first started going to New York, I was still in college, and I was living there during summers.

53:09And it was just like bungalow eight. That's what I thought. I thought that was your, okay, that makes sense. Marquee, bungalow, like we were clubby. Not marquee. I know. filthy right that's that's so filthy but no it was it was good for a second and we all went to coffee shop right across the street from blue water grill and where i would later work i talk about coffee shop all the time which is it really i because i walk by it a lot and i just know i was like that was such a because i would go there before i lived in new york when i was in my early 20s and just be like i didn't know there were this many good-looking people on earth that could be employed in one place.

53:47Like it's, it's shocking that that doesn't exist anymore. It's actually shocking how few late night dining options they are. I know Keith McNally has been on one about this right now because he's doing press for his book, but I worked at BooVette in the West village and Jody kept the kitchen open until one 45. Last call was one 45 AM. So weekends or every night weekends, Friday and Saturday night, but midnight on Sundays. So if you come in at 1150 on a Sunday, you can order fire menu and we like are there to serve you the food. And I was a graduate student then I wasn't like really partying doing drugs anymore.

54:27But I was like, this is so important. Like Patti Smith would come in at 145 in the morning and just like order an entire menu. And I'm like, this is the only city in the US where you can do something like this. And I don't know where you do that right now. Our priorities have shifted as a culture. To what? To going to sleep early and not eating bouvet at 1.30 a.m., which to be fair is pretty extreme based on the menu that I have seen at bouvet over the years. It's not a light meal at 1.30 a.m.

54:55Jason Stewart:Yeah, but right now, the restaurant industry as a whole seems to be hanging on by a thread in many cities all across the country. So maybe this time when you could order fire the Thanksgiving dinner at midnight on a Sunday, you're doing coke off the wine keys. Everyone's fucking each other. There's no HR. Maybe that wasn't so bad back then. It was a definite moment. I talk about the no HR and no health code grades. Like when I was in restaurants. Wait, that wasn't that long ago. I didn't realize that. There was no health code. There were no grades in the window. Yeah, I just thought that it existed forever is what I'm trying to say.

55:33I thought that had been around. No, the health inspector came. You slipped him money and he went away for a bajillion, bajillion years. And I think between HR departments and the health code, like restaurants have gotten a lot safer. But at what cost? I don't know. Safer for who? If I don't see what's going on, I don't care what's going on.

55:52Jason Stewart:There is a cost, and that cost is too much to stay in business for most businesses. That is true. That is true. Like I say about everything, Jason, let them close. If you can't hack it, we probably don't need it. Wow, that is some gorgeous free market at work, my friend. I mean, honestly. And the icing on that one, Stephanie, is Chris does not know how to cook at all. So without these restaurants that he says are okay to close, he would be eating, I don't know, rice crackers. I could survive on Triscuits and Cheez-Its for at least a month, but then I would have to sort of... No, I just mean that I think that we're in a point in society where everybody thinks that everything is owed to them.

56:32And I think that if you want to do something that you're passionate about, there's a possibility that other people won't like it or care about it or patronize it. And I just think that's how it is. If you don't like this podcast, you're not going to listen to it. We're not going to make money off you. If your restaurant isn't good, people aren't going to go there and eat it because it's not good. I just don't know why that's bad. I think that there's a balance. First of all, New York's always been like that, right? Like less than 1 % of the restaurants survive. It's always been a cutthroat market for that in particular.

56:58But there are ways that you have to support the small businesses. It cannot just be a fucking free-for-all, fend for yourself off of your merit because no one's going to make it. The rents are too expensive. The minimum wage is too expensive. You have to think about environments that can sustain small businesses. I sort of agree with you as a small business lover. I'm a big small business supporter. I really am. Or we just eat at Houston's, which is dope too. We go to the mall and we eat at Houston's. Like P.F. Chang's forever. Lettuce cups. I'm fine if that's what you want. I just think that if you – but I guess what I'm saying is if you're going to open a restaurant in New York, you know what the deal is.

57:37Like you know what's on the line. I don't think it's a secret to you what the possibility is of like one review killing you or this or that or whatever. And I just think that like, if you're addicted to that and you want to do that and that's what you want to do, you have to be prepared for the consequences of it not going well. That's all. My first husband had two restaurants and I was like a part of an umbrella group. And like a lot of those businesses failed, but were immensely successful by New York standards. Right. You also have to kind of like change your metric. If you get a great review, you pay back your investors.

58:08You were busy for five years. You won the lottery. Go gracefully into the good night. and let someone else come along because the food trends move as well, right? It's not all Union Square Cafe, these 40-year-old institutions. Maybe that's why I'm attracted to those places and I'm not going to wait in line for an hour and a half in Dimes Square for a piece of pizza, but to each their own. Really? Because when he was describing you going out to dinner every single night, I was like, this guy's in Dimes every time. I do like Dimes. I do like Dimes. We went to a restaurant last night in Dimes Square called Tolo that's really good that's not super but that neighborhood and what that has become it's just so crazy how bad thing like how something goes bad so fast yeah no i so my boyfriend lives in new york we're like long distance and i'm there all the time and he's just like he's perfect and i'm obsessed with him but like kind of a prototypical 41 year old fuck boy right who has never cooked a meal for himself in his life is it possible is it possible that jason and i know him i don't know i don't we have to know we definitely know this guy if you if you preface

59:12Jason Stewart:your boyfriend with babe you know i love you so much but i definitely know this guy he's perfect but he's like he's like yeah we got to go to dimes and i'm like sweetie i'm not going to dime square like what are you talking about i've i'd rather i work too hard to go to dimes like were you there when it was lace and fonts like i don't want to throw around like new york street crowd. Oh, you're trying to stunt on this man you love and are obsessed with. You want to bring him down a peg is what you're saying. No. You want to remind him how much older you are than me? No. Are you robbing the cradle, Stephanie?

59:48Is this age appropriate? I'm not against that, but no, unfortunately. Okay, it's your age appropriate. Alright, so this 41 year old fuckboy that Jason and I have definitely partied with. I'll bleep it out. Can you say his name?

59:58Jason Stewart:Oh, no. No, because then I won't be able to talk freely for the rest of the podcast. Come on.

1:00:07Jason Stewart:fair yeah of course uh if you are dating dandler send me an email we'll have you on the pod next week we'll get we'll get the we'll kind of get both sides of this whole story if you'll better only get one message too stephanie all right also speaking of pf changs have you been to panda inn in pasadena do i need to it's it's owned by panda express it's like if panda express was upscale being run like a din taifung type of situation yeah yeah so military precision it's like an asian houston's as well so uh okay in pasina they have a full bar delicious they have sushi it's pretty good i'll take the kids i'll take the kids thanks for the restaurant rec it does sound good when i started dating my second husband he ate at panda express and that is like i guess that's why it didn't work right i was about to say and you made it like he ate there he ate there as an adult on a wednesday night like full on full on like the dude i'm dating now is eating in dime square and i'm critical but like this guy was eating at panda express we got in a big fight about it once he was like you're such an elitist bitch and i was like yeah what happened to you like what happened that you have to eat here something bad i think both people can be right you know i think not eating food court and elitist there's a big spectrum in between i think there's yeah there's a big spectrum but i also think there's yeah two people can be right in every in every situation how much do you tip at restaurants nowadays percentage wise 21 and that's on you on tax yeah for one percent like you are so your check average is looked at as your performance as a server and in some cases it determines the shifts that you're going to get so you are like oh i have a 22 tip average like i get put on friday saturday nights like i'm top tier and so what is the three extra dollars the one extra dollar the five extra dollars to me it's like pretty meaningful um but i know people who don't tip on tax and i that's so fussy and stupid like it disturbs me it disturbs me a little bit but like I think practically speaking, it might be ethical.

1:02:21I think it's okay, but I think it's weird. Stephanie, we don't care about ethics here on How Long Gone.

1:02:26Jason Stewart:It's technically okay, but it's sort of like saying, I don't really care if you die or live, but I'll be doing this for social cues. That's embedded in the experience. What is the point there to feel superior? That just seems like such an - That you're saving like$3, right? If you're going out to eat in New York City, you don't need to save$3. That's the reality. like that's what i'm saying that's what i'm saying if you don't want to if you don't want to tip on the tax go live in a place where there's no tax um but i've never heard that before just adding the one percent so the server that did a good job gets bumped up and potentially gets better shifts yeah i've never heard that so then if somebody is serving you and they do a bad job do you hit them with a 19 i've never tipped under 20 percent of my life but there's two things it's your tip average and your check average so like how much you're selling every single night and that is like where you rank in a restaurant what is the secret to upselling you're jason and i's waitress you see us we're good time guys we look like we got some cash in our pockets how are you going to get us to fork over for the seafood tower i mean if you guys are looking to have a good time you already want the seafood tower and all you all i have to do is just like make you think that the other like bros in the building are definitely getting the seafood tower like no one no one who's a serious person who eats here would miss the seafood tower but whatever you want to do and then and then the other thing is i was never like i'm going to sell you a thousand dollar bottle of champagne i was always like i can sense when someone is considering their second drink like i can feel i can feel it and if you hit them at that moment even if they were said they came in I'm only going to have one tonight.

1:04:08I've got to go home in a little bit. I can feel it and I can get you to have four drinks, which is a much better for my check average because the bottle is priced at a discount. So that was my game.

1:04:19Jason Stewart:You can see somebody walk to the edge and know when it's time to push them over. Do you think that... I think we've reached a point now because of like Dumois and like celebrity culture where celebrities now have to tip, 30 % to 50 % so they don't get called out on social media. Do you think that's true or do you think there's still some cheap ones out there? I kind of think that's true. I think being close friends with Emily for so many years, she's really watched. She cannot get into an altercation or get angry or even be honestly like in a bad mood when she's picking up her coffee and I find it nuts.

1:05:05She's also like very recognizable. Like we have some musician friends that like certain places, like if they go to a coffee shop, everybody in the coffee shop knows who they are. You know what I mean? Emily can't walk down the street. It's a, it's, but, but like there's levels to it, but I think it affects anyone with any sort of like notoriety. Yeah, there are, there are definitely levels to it but i'll say like if you're new york famous which my friend sarah hoover who was on your podcast um used to say about tom like if you're new york famous you better be paying attention when you're in a restaurant because the servers know who you are and like there's a rep there's a larger reputation at stake there i would i would say new york famous is better than any other kind honestly i i think it's the number one i say i say that all the time privately i'm like you couldn't pay me to be famous but if you're new york famous like give me some other examples of who's New York famous.

1:05:54I have my own ideas, I guess, but I'm just thinking Patti Smith, like before just kids used to eat at this place, you know, do you remember, you know, in the West village, it was like super tiny and they just had paninis, coffee and wine. Um, well it was, she used to sit there all the time and I'd be like, God, this is really New York. And it's really the Elizabeth Payton. I waited on. It's like the artists, it's the musicians. That's what it is. You're right. It's not actors and actresses in the same way. It's people that matter to culture more. I will say, being friends with Emily, Alex Consani and Z-Way, those are New York famous people where you feel like you are a part of New York City if you see them on the street.

1:06:38The way that Sarah Jessica Parker might have been to old women like myself. Old women. To the geriatrics.

1:06:46Jason Stewart:Speaking of, are we are we watching and just like that uh no i i'm not i'm not can't do it no i barely watch tv and i'm a tv writer like full time is my day job and i cannot handle i didn't watch tv what tv show i didn't know that um i since sweet bitter i've developed non-stop sure i mean that's how i support support my family do you do you want to make a show again or is it not worth it I would love to make a show again. When I first started, so I make Sweet Bitter, right? And I'm an EP co-showrunner. I've learned how to write a script. I have two seasons of TV under my belt. It was like this incredible PhD education.

1:07:30and when people started paying me to write things that nobody made i was like uh this is amazing like what the fuck and then after like five years of it you're like oh this is why every single screenwriter is suicidal and in constant existential peril because like nothing it's all throwaway yeah it's all absolutely nothing you work your ass off because your name is on it and it is just some third tier executives like chore that they have to commission with their like tiny little budget and then it disappears that's crazy but at first i was like free money yeah of course but do you did sweet bitter was like i mean do you feel like you made enough money do you think it was like worth doing um it depends i didn't have kids then and i was already living in new york so like it was yeah that i mean you guys i was a waitress i sold a book for like a lot of money in the book world but tv money i was just like what the fuck is happening i don't think it

1:08:36Jason Stewart:happened and i was on stars just imagine if it was on a real network how is stars still alive like i went out with a pitch recently and it was like a meeting with stars and i was like huh what like oh those guys are still around oh okay jason thank you for saying that because i was i also had a stars joke ready and i want one of us was going to do it and i'm glad that i'm glad that you did well i guess now that sweet boys you too these uh these short stories and unfinished novels are getting secured for seven figures is there even a point to finish anything or is it just uh you know what i mean dude i sold a novel in at the end of 2022 off of a partial right and it was because i had had dinner this is very name dropping forgive me i had a dinner with bready stinellis and he was like yeah i sold a book off one page i was just like dear so and so a knopf like that diva here's the book i want to write you know and they gave me money and I'm sitting here being like, I've got like 90 pages of a novel.

1:09:40Like maybe I should sell it. I have not been able to finish that book for a variety of reasons, but I will never sell off of a partial again. Completed projects only. There is something, so there's like this spiritual side of it, which is you're out and about talking about a project that isn't finished yet. And you kind of like, you let all the magic out of it in a way. you turn it into a commodity too soon. And then there is a practical side of it, which when I did that event with Rachel Kushner two weeks ago, some motherfucker in the audience was like, what happened to that book you were working on about the Menendez trial?

1:10:18And I'm like, bro, do you think I don't know? Do you think I'm like that? I don't realize that hasn't come out yet.

1:10:26Jason Stewart:Good advice, dude. Really good advice. Thank you. The one that my agent emails me about every two weeks i should write that one right on top of that rose like it's really um okay yeah i mean yeah when you talk about it finish jason you gotta finish you it has the energy in the universe that it's already completed so why totally your brain doesn't even consider to finish it that's real i'm i'm i will listen it's a privilege to write a book for no without like on spec essentially right? Like most of us have to make a living, but I hope I never have to do that again. And maybe you guys, before we die, I will have a new novel out.

1:11:05I'm sure you'll get around to it.

1:11:07Jason Stewart:What style works better for you devoting one day a week to just knocking out 12 hours of writing or piecing it out two hours every day across the week? I am a binger. That's a great question. because I was working two jobs in graduate school and I would go to these long restaurant shifts and I would write for like 12 hours on Tuesdays. It was like the same kind of principle as clocking at three o 'clock and leaving at 2 a.m. And I wrote Sweet Bitter that way. And then Stray, I wrote in nine weeks in Barcelona with a newborn. But like - You hear that, Chris? Barcelona? Oh, did I say it incorrectly?

1:11:49No, no, no.

1:11:49Jason Stewart:Chris is in the middle of writing a book and you're like, I did it in nine weeks with a newborn. Well, Chris, do you want me to tell you how to do it? Yeah, please. You can't have lunch. You cannot go out to lunch. You cannot go out to dinner. You have to move to a different time zone so that you are removed from your actual life. I've actually come to terms with that part of it. I realize that now, but I'm glad that a professional has reinforced it. I just have too much work to do. Like you said, it doesn't pay. There's no money. So it's like you have to do all the other stuff. We have to record the show.

1:12:28But all in all, I think you're right. You just have to remove yourself from anything that is familiar, basically.

1:12:35Jason Stewart:When you wrote the foreword to Vegas, did you go to Vegas to do that writing? I had just been in Vegas with my children. I had just been in Vegas less than a year earlier. And I'd been on a road trip through the Southwest. And I was like, you know what? Vegas is going to be dope. We're going to have so much fun. It's so colorful. The fountains, like my kids are going to love it. It's our last stop on this road trip. What a horror show. What a true. You thought Florida was bad. Yeah. People complain about Disneyland being the dregs of humanity. And I have to tell you that it is in Las Vegas. Yeah.

1:13:13What a terrible place.

1:13:14Jason Stewart:Las Vegas is free. Disneyland is like several hundred dollars for your children. it is it's not free when you take two two small children to carbone jason yeah that'll add no we went to momofuku and like gave them phones so they could like sit under the table so that we could just have a meal um no vegas is dark dark energy and that book is really has a lot of dark energy as well it is the perfect site of a middle-aged man's midlife crisis and i think that there's like something very fun at play between him and joan in that book where she wrote that famous essay in the islands where she said we've gone to hawaii in lieu of getting a divorce and they stay at like the royal hawaiian hotel in honolulu and he's like i've gone to like the desert sands motel in las vegas where it's 104 degrees and i'm talking to a sex worker with one big leg and it's um he's really gone the other direction in lieu of getting a divorce gotta go in the other direction yeah that i feel like that level of vegas doesn't exist anymore i feel like you can't really get into some good old-fashioned vegas when that was in the 70s when that was going down yeah you definitely can't you definitely can't that shit is that shit is disney world like it really is it really is it's there's nothing i mean i don't know if there's many places in america you can find that sort of real debauched lifestyle if you if you wanted it key west i don't know i think key west is like but everything turns into just like rich people retiring if in that zone you know but yeah you may be able to chase it well it's like how sanitized everything's become like vegas is quite sanitized like it is totally fine for a child if you don't mind exposing them to like desperate sadness everywhere like you don't want your people that you don't want your kids to see that many fat people in one place i agree with you it can sort It can damage them.

1:15:09She didn't say it. She did not say that. It could damage them. Let the record stay. I said sad. I said they're sad inside. Well, they're sad inside because they eat their feelings, and that's what happened. You got to get this stuff worked out. I'm just saying.

1:15:24Jason Stewart:That was our words, not yours, Stephanie. All right, well, last question for you, and we'll let you go. We usually ask this for some bad boy rock stars and things like that, but I feel like you'll do a good job in this category. top five prescription drugs of all time oh my god let's start with the benzos we're gonna do them individually um i switched from xanax to ativan like two or three years ago because xanax was not cutting it on the plane anymore then i recently took a xanax again and i was like welcome back like it is like a down feather bed it's incredible um so we're gonna put Xanax at the top.

1:16:07And then most people would argue between Klonopin and Ativan all day, but let's just put them at two and three and say that they serve different purposes. I think Ativan, you can really stay awake on. Speak for yourself. Go ahead. Klonopin's hard for me to stay awake on. Next, I'm going to talk about beta blockers, which are used for public speaking and I use for pitches or when I used to be on book tour. back when I wrote books a long time ago. What an incredible drug. Oh my God. Oh my God. And when Sweet Bitter the show came out, I couldn't take them because I was secretly pregnant. And I was like, wow, being up here talking to Katie Couric without beta blockers is a special circle of hell.

1:16:55Jason Stewart:So beta blockers really are that, I mean, I've heard some people talk about using them, but it really is a miracle drug for you like that. It's a total miracle. And I'll tell you why I'll get into the nitty gritty, which is that if you are on a book tour or you guys are doing some sort of event where you have to talk to very, very important people and you want to have a drink, not you, Chris, but maybe Jason, you can't drink on Xanax. You can't like, you can, but that's more like an at home activity. That's like, I'm going to have like a glass of wine. That's in a controlled environment. A controlled environment.

1:17:29Yeah, totally. Like you're not like going out to dinner with a bookseller in Iowa after like 0.5 milligrams of Xanax and two glasses of wine. Hey, Sherry, do you want to split this bar or are you good? Okay. All right. I'll take it myself. I'll take it myself.

1:17:44Jason Stewart:I was hoping to stand later, so I'm going to pass for now. So that's the beta blocker we can drink on. That's a very important distinction. Well, actually some physician is going to write you and be like, you can definitely not drink on beta blockers. I'm just talking about - Stephanie, don't worry. We don't have any We don't have any doctors that listen to this podcast. Personal anecdote only. Yeah, yeah. Don't worry. Maybe I will consult my therapist to get the prescription for a little beta blocker. Oh, yeah. Try it. But I sort of like, I want to feel a little bit crazy when I'm on a stage.

1:18:14No. Could you yell him? My friend says it keeps her sharp. But I don't. I don't want to be that sharp. I'm cool. If I get a little nervous, I feel like that's healthy. So I don't want that to go away, kind of. Totally. Because it dissipates once you're out there for a little while and things are going okay. It goes away, usually. And it is like an in-person thing. I don't need it for Zoom pitches, but I still do in-person pitches. And it's more that when you're across from someone and they've got that dead face, they're just staring at you. And you're just like, you can't speak. I love the dead face.

1:18:48I dare you to give me dead face. I'm going to fucking plow right through that shit. Have you ever pitched a show to Netflix executives? Because you don't know about dead face. It's a different level of dead face. It is literally, you're like, do these people work at the cell phone company? What's happening here? They're just not awake. You're telling me this guy's in charge? He looks like he works at AT &T. Exactly. It's really, really bleak. And what's another fun one? I don't really fuck with opiates anymore, but let me say that there was a time in my life when my saved up Percocet Vicodin collection that if I was like, it's Friday, I'm going to take half a Vicodin and get in the bathtub and I would just be like it's amazing

1:19:30Jason Stewart:thanks Stephanie and that is our trigger point for the episode thank you so much we got through it we got through the full hour you waited until the very last minute and I appreciate it you're a professional that's why we called you thank you so much for chatting with us go check out Vegas the memoir by the Dunman and forward written by Stephanie Dandler. She's got lots of TV shows that'll never be made, so you can not look those up. And you know more about pills than anyone else who has been on our show before. Well done there. Really? For sure. You're at least top three of all time. That was expert level stuff right there.

1:20:15Jason Stewart:You're like, why did... God tier. Don't bury the lead, guys. We should have opened with that one. Yikesies. Okay. No, it's a common topic on our show. It's nothing to beat. Picks one to no one as well. But I would say read Stray if you haven't. It's very good. Thank you. It's very, very good. I appreciate that. I really liked it. I really liked it. You guys are great. Have fun. Thank you. Good to see you. We'll see you soon. Yeah, we'll see you soon. All right. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.

1:20:50Bye-bye. I want to date with Rawls, Carty says. Rawls? Rucker asks.

1:20:58Jason Stewart:This is the love story of real hinge couple Carty and Rucker. Written and read by me, Nicola Dynan. Listen to the free audiobook now.