821. - Diana Yen

23:23Oh, I see. So they're bringing some East Coast flavor to the sleepy town of Ojai. Oh my gosh. Yeah.

23:30Jason Stewart:Do you think they're doing a good job of mixing the Ojai Valley culture with the, you know, dime squarification? Like how invasive is the Tin Fish program? You know what i mean i think it's relatively harmless right now they are you know focusing on partnering up with also like your local so it's never really like a big chain coming in and taking over i think they're pretty mindful about having locals working there and just creating more opportunity in the economy they're smart they're like we're not going to ruffle feathers around here these these people need their 18 muffins and we got to give it to them yeah and there's also this place that search becker just opened you know he had la squina and the box and lilies in new york and his place is called radio roma and it's bumping hard for this small town like there's people waiting outside to get it okay so radio roma's bumping hard is that you say bumping or thumping bumping so you're saying that the what do you think the percentage of drunk drivers are coming from from this place How bumping is it?

24:38Well, it's a Mezcal bar. There you go. You answered your own question. You answered my question. Thank you. Okay, so it's a Mezcal bar in Ojai, and it's popping. It's the town's hot spot, if you will. It is. It's a little bit like Tokyo Music Bar where there's DJs coming in, and it has that flashy vibe. And there was nowhere to go late at night before, so it's our first place, and people are really into it. Sure.

25:04Jason Stewart:Okay, are you in a relationship, Diana, or are you single and ready to mingle? I'm dating someone in LA, so I have to commute. Everyone brings in their love interest if you want to date in Ojai. Fly-ins. Like if you're a woman. Yeah, you've got to import. Sure, sure. That's a comment. So there's no corn-fed locals out there that's ripe for the picking? Honestly, I feel like there are a lot of confused men out here that their chick brought them to Ojai. and they're like where am I exactly they're wandering around aimlessly yeah they're like this is nice but I don't know how we ended up here that's pretty cool I hope there's a secret support group for guys who had to move to Ojai because their wife made them and they have to they're trying to get through it together yeah they meet up at pickleball every week so they definitely meet up at pickleball that's exactly at noon I have pickleball at noon and then at two I have I'm pickling my okra and then that's all that we have left to do here right best of both worlds okay so you're saying there's not much of a so when you go out to what uh one of these hot spots or this single hot spot it's it's coupled up or young people that are visiting yeah i felt like it was a really distinct scene like all these kind of people that felt like they were from new york in their 30s and 40s were sitting at tables and then there were these like 20 year olds that were like dancing up on the platform and like you know kind of going off so have a little bit of everyone there that's good oh hi needs that oh hi needs 20 year old people doing coke and jumping around right it's true yes we need it we need jason to come jason needs to come dj there would be really cool yeah sounds like jason would love to come dj in oh hi you could i mean i'm sure you could find a way sam go get me some avails in oh hi i guess this is the only place get me avail in oh hi place I've only been once and it was over a decade ago so I'm basically in the same boat as Jason but I'm willing to give it another shot but when you're in New York it's kind of a haul you know I think it's just tacking it on to an LA trip and I'd love to give you guys like my pixie tour let me show you my Ojai yeah I call it the pixie tour it's named after the tangerines that grow here like the little ones Oh, so you have, okay, so you've got this, okay, you've got this really thought out.

27:33First of all, I didn't know that small tangerines were called pixies. Did you know that, Jason?

27:36Jason Stewart:I thought, I've been eating the twink tangerine this whole time, not knowing it was the pixie tangerine. Pixie tangerine, great drag name. Great drag name. Yeah, we have our own, we have our own tangerine. For all of our orange motherfuckers out there. Are you saying, you're saying that this tangerine that you're speaking of only grows in the Ojai Valley region? That's right. Wow, and what are the flavor profiles, if you don't mind me asking? Orange. It pretty much tastes like a tangerine. Got it. Skin is really thin, though. Really easy to peel. You don't have all of that white stuff. Okay. Okay.

28:08So it's easier to peel, but it delivers the same sort. Like the way a sumo sort of just tastes the same, but it looks funny. It's a little juicier than a sumo and sweeter, probably. Okay. I don't mind juicy.

28:21Jason Stewart:I like Chris getting into the weeds with his citrus right now. I mean, when's the last time? As a person who doesn't really care about food or ingredients that much, I guess that discovering or hearing about a new kind of produce at 42 years old is just something you have to investigate. Yeah, absolutely. We're really proud of the citrus here. There's a sign every month during citrus season that's like, which tangerine or orange is in season? Okay, what's your top three citrus fruits then, if you're an expert? Yeah, I would say the pixie, obviously, number one. Okay. Number two is the Paige Mandarin.

28:59It's so incredible. Wait, what the fuck is this? I've never heard of this either.

29:02Jason Stewart:Paige Mandarin. She does socials for Celine, I think. That's literally Paige Mandarin. Paige Mandarin sounds like an influencer selling me a$200 hoodie. She's the new best friend on Emily in Paris. Wow, that's good. Okay, say it again. Paige. Paige Mandarin. That's so good. And the third citrus out of the top three, The third one would be we have limes that are yellow that are super sweet. Whoa. You know, usually you buy at the supermarket. Girl, that's a lemon. No, it's a lime. It's green inside, too. The flesh is green. Whoa. Yeah, the ones at the market are basically unripened. So you can tell the difference between a lime and a lemon.

29:50but actually these you let them ripen on the tree and then they they are yellow and really sweet but still have that edge so i'll tell you what if my lime doesn't have that fucking edge i'm throwing it back yeah i like my life so then you have this so that sounds like the watermelon radish of citrus yeah like it has it you're not expecting it you open it up and you're oh shit this is a I'm like, it's not a lemon.

30:18Jason Stewart:Say what now? Yeah, I send it out. And that like the flavor is cool and all, but you know, you slice it thinly and you put it in a cocktail and everyone's like, ooh, different. Yes. What kind of trees do you have at your house though? I have a pineapple guava tree and I don't know if you've had this fruit before. They don't really sell at the market. Hold on. You got a pineapple tree? Pineapple guava. What is that? Is that a freaky little hybrid? I think it's the flavor of a pineapple In the form of a guava Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa Hold on, hold on So you're telling me that I look at this guava And it code switches to pineapple when I put it in my mouth?

30:57Exactly, exactly

30:58Jason Stewart:The amount of times somebody has code switched In Chris's mouth over the years I tell you what

31:08That's actually I've never heard of that either Honestly, Diana, I'm learning so much from you Jason were you aware of this one?

31:14Jason Stewart:No and I also may not believe you I think you're just naming two fruits And putting them together Because you're like I have a pineapple guava tree Most people have never had it before They actually don't really have it at the market You're the only person on planet earth with a pineapple And you also I have a boyfriend but he lives in LA So he's not around that much No no he goes to the other school in town He goes to a different farmer's market Actually It's like a lot better He's super hot, but he just goes to the other farmers. He knows the wisers, so it's a little different. Oh, wow. Okay, so you got pineapple, guava.

31:50What else do we have on property? My property's not that big. I just have a small yard. That's the main fruit tree. Okay, so you got one major fruit tree. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't working with an orchard here, and we had to go through a full list. No, no, I'm not that level. Okay.

32:03Jason Stewart:So you don't have room to plant? There's no, get the lychee flowing? I don't have that much space, but I also just moved here from Brooklyn like a few years ago, so I'm not like ready to go next level in that way. Trees take time. Yeah, like a lifetime. How long have you lived in the land of citrus? Three or four years now. Okay, so you escaped LA for the quiet life. Well, I moved from Brooklyn and I lived in Brooklyn for like 17 years. Living in Brooklyn for that long would force me to Ojai too, so I understand kind of having to make Like a switch, if you will. So you're living in Brooklyn and then doing the food, you know, the cookbook writing, the food styling, the this, the that, the creation.

32:50Jason Stewart:You eventually had to go to the mecca of food influencing and set up shop in Ojai where the sun is shining, the citrus is flowing. Absolutely. And there's like people who have outdoor cutting boards and stuff. Yeah, I think when you work in food for a long time, you realize you're just kind of like cooking in an apartment kitchen. And once I would come visit California, the produce is so good that I just realized it's actually all I really need for my work. So I came out here and I grew up in Orange County. I'm an OC Asian. So I had friends. Okay, calm down now. Don't pander. Don't pander. Do not pander.

33:31Jason Stewart:What city are we talking about, Yan? Mountain Valley. oh my gosh Jason's about to read you to filth he knows every little thing about you already no no no well I mean it could be the other way around did you know of me or my wife at all growing up in Orange County I didn't but I started listening to your show during the pandemic and I was like wait Dime Square which my office was in and then I was like oh see like I grew up there and heard of every like straight edge shows like all of that was part of my childhood Okay, so you like some tatted up white boys that didn't shower that much is what you're saying.

34:09I did, but now I'm kind of more of like trad wife, like farmer's market person. Sure, she's shifted. You got it out of your system. Yeah, you got it out young. It's a better way to be. I think the maturity shows through. But Fountain Valley comes up a lot on this podcast, I would say. It does. In passing. In passing. And I just, are there any landmarks maybe that I would know that maybe have a reason to visit Fountain Valley? besides your parents' house? Just for Dard's, the Vietnamese restaurant. It's really good there. There's an amazing Vietnamese restaurant. And is it like, you got to put your name down and wait two hours or is it like a pretty normal experience?

34:45No, you're going to have to wait and there's like a huge mob of Vietnamese people. So it's going to take a long time to do it.

34:51Jason Stewart:Yeah, it's a wait. But it's good. They have a couple locations, I think, so you can spread it out. But yeah, it's good. They're known for the spring roll that has a little crunchy thing inside of it. Yeah, that's so good. A little fried rolled up cruncher. hold on what is the fried hold on they take like is it like a wonton skin something like that and then they roll it into like a straw and then deep fry it and then that's like a little crunchy backbone for your soft roll that's like when I used to paint the kind of the crease of the blunt with lean you know what I mean that's kind of like that yeah give it a little structural integrity of fun little hooves.

35:31Jason Stewart:Yeah, structural integrity, exactly. The spine of the spring roll, the spine of the blunt is what I'm... It can come alive in your mouth. It's like a pop rock. But also another great landmark in Fountain Valley, Fountain Valley Hospital, where I was born as well as Carolyn. Oh my gosh. You guys are both born there? Wow. We were both born in that hospital. That's two minutes from my family's house. That's amazing. Okay. A lot of friends have come from Fountain Valley. Don't be ashamed. Are there any others besides those with us now? Well, Chris, the town's motto, I remember, I forgot what year it was, but one year, when you're driving in between cities, they'll have now entering this.

36:14Jason Stewart:Sure. And then on the major streets. But then on one street, it'll have the big proper cement sign that they spent some money on to be the big one. and one year Fountain Valley announced that their city motto was Fountain Valley, a nice place to live and then us living in Huntington Beach really clowned you guys for having such a kind of generic limp-dicked town motto. I like it. I like how classic it is kind of. It is limp but I also like it. It's a little like lorem ipsa me to me. Yeah, it is. It does feel placeholder-ish. Working title. I don't disagree. I've just never No shade I love how Diana's silent now No no I'm just thinking Of Fountain Valley And just throwing up there And trying to get away But then like Sort of Coming back And living a more Suburban lifestyle That's what I'm doing Right now Do you get bored though Or do you like this Is this like the way You want to live No I'm Okay So bored No Chris Chris I was The first year I was here I was gone At least Half the time And And I think that it wasn't until this year and I started doing book tour that I was like, damn, I need to be domestic.

37:27I'm doing all this fire cooking. I kind of need to do it in the U.S. Yeah. So is the – okay. But when you need to fly out of Ojai – And don't bring up fire cooking. That's our job.

37:37Jason Stewart:I'm sorry. We talk about the book when it's time. Oh, my God. Where do we go? What airport do we fly out of? What is the closest airport that can get you to a real destination? Well, ideally you'd want a flat Santa Barbara because it's beautiful, but it doesn't go anywhere you want to go. Sure. I usually have to go to LAX for that. Golly. See, this is like when I knew people that lived in Athens, Georgia, where I'm from. I'm from Atlanta. And people would be like, oh, yeah, it's an hour and a half to go to the airport. And it seems so crazy to me, but then I realized that it takes an hour and a half to get to JFK as well because of traffic.

38:15So it's kind of the same shit, but it doesn't feel the same in my mind. Yeah, it's the same kind of lifestyle. But it's nice coming back here for sure. I bet it's nice coming back. But is it nicer to leave? That's the question. Yeah. I mean, no, it's great. I think it's better to come back. It's better to come back. Okay. All right. I'm sure. Coming back to New York is disgusting. Every time I'm both energized and disgusted with my surroundings. So I can only imagine what it's like to come back to birds chirping and, you know, tangerines falling into your arms. I actually love going back to New York.

38:48It is the chaos that I crave. Do you go too hard? I don't think I go that hard, but just standing outside and being on the streets already, like, kind of going hard for me. It's like chaos all around you. You just, like, you don't have to do anything to feel that energy. You're kind of right, actually. You don't even have to get a bag anymore.

39:09Jason Stewart:it's just already pumping. Yeah, you can just let it wash over you. You can just let it wash over you. Okay, well, let's say you're in New York and you come back and then you have to do more open fire cooking contractually, thanks to whatever the book publisher is. What are we doing to deal with the smell of wood, fire, and the clothes, and the hair, and the socks? Is this an issue for you? Hey Chicago, class it up with Crocs. You know back to school is coming in fast. So why wait to find your new fave footwear? Step into a local Crocs store and step into your new look. Try it, style it, make it yours.

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40:59Jason Stewart:Whatever. Yeah, you just get used to it. You're completely smoked out. I mean, it is in your clothes and hair. All right, Snoop Dogg, calm down. because my issue is my issue with hot pot my issue with open fire cooking my issue with campfires Korean barbecue I can't leave smelling or even open kitchen restaurants where you can leave smelling like the food and I know that in Korea they have special contraptions to save your Birkin and your coat from these smells they can put a condom on the Birkin they have the fan that sucks all the Yeah, in the U.S. we don't have that, but I see you're saying you've been desensitized after doing it.

41:43Yeah, I think if you're doing it outside, it's really like you're not even focusing. When you're inside at a K-Barbecue place, definitely that's when it gets you. But I think outside, it's just part of being outside, part of nature. Yeah, no, I think you're right. I think it is part of being – I kind of agree with you, and it should be romanticized. I'm the one with the problem. Oh, so you can't handle the smoke. Okay, Morgan Wallen. I mean, camping's out of question then. Diana, I wouldn't, you couldn't, there's no amount of open fire cooking you could offer me. Not even Air Mez or Air Mail could get this guy to camp.

42:20I would camp maybe at, I don't know. I mean, do you consider a high-end yurt camping or do you consider that cheating? No, I think that's a good start. That's how I started. I have a glamping tent I could set up for you. What does a glamping tent consist of exactly compared to, let's say, a regular kind of REI model? Okay. So it's one of those canvas bell tents that makes you feel like you're on safari. Yes. And then inside you have an air mattress. Okay. And I like to put like a sheepskin on the ground. And I have a sleeping bag on top of the air mattress, but then I top it off with a cashmere blanket.

43:00Okay. Okay. So you're bringing. Okay. So you're saying you're still on an air mattress and you're still technically on the ground, but you have a cashmere blanket to sort of offset any discomfort that could arise. Yeah. Then I have like a little oil lamp, you know, the glass one. Okay. You're making this shit cute is what you're saying. You said, halt. Who goes there? Yeah. I got the little fairy lights up and, you know, I'm making like really good food for you guys. Okay. Okay. You're making it sound pretty good.

43:28Jason Stewart:Do you put fairy lights on the pixie tangerine tree? Because that would be like insanity. That would be cool. I'd have to go to the citrus grove to do that. You'd have to trespass. Obviously, we know your book will detail great foods that are grillable. When you put them on the open fire, it only makes them better. Kabocha squash, a lamb chop, a whole chicken, whatever it might be. I want to talk about things that you should never grill over an open fire. I'll get it started. Romaine lettuce for a Caesar salad. Oh, yeah. That gets really soggy. I haven't had too much success. Who wants black and soggy lettuce?

44:13Let me ask a question, Jason. Let me ask a question. Is there maybe a certain technique or move with the wrist that can prevent this, or is there no way around it because of the elements at play?

44:23Jason Stewart:You know, if you have to do it, I would do the highest heat sear possible and, you know, literally one second on each side, just like kiss it. Okay. So it still has some structural integrity, but it gets some of that sear flavor on them. When you're out in the woods. To me, it feels like you're destroying a beautiful, delicate vegetable. I agree. I would agree. I would agree. I thank God you agree. When you're out in the woods like this, what is the salad to accompany? You know, is there a go-to outdoor salad? But also first, I want you to answer. Oh, yeah. What's bad? I'm sorry. What you don't grill.

45:03What you don't grill. I think that grilled watermelon had a moment. And again, I don't think it's that great grilled. Oh, hell no. Fuck that. Agreed. Keep my ripe-ass melons away from your flame.

45:16Jason Stewart:No way. And the only people who do things like grilling watermelon are people who are not masters of the grill. They just saw it on TikTok and they're like, corn goes down, watermelon goes down, pineapple goes down, shrimp goes down. We're cooking that shrimp for 45 minutes. It's all fucked up. You know what I mean? Yeah. I think the watermelon, like certain fruit probably shouldn't be on the grill or anything with a super high water content. Because it just gets, it just doesn't work. It's just that's not going to work. No, no. Yeah, that's a good point. The water content. Don't get the mushy.

45:51Jason Stewart:What about a grilled avocado, though? I hate hot avocado. I hate it. Wow. Baked avocado with the egg inside? That shit was terrible. It's like mushy and it turns all mealy. It's the worst way to eat an avocado for sure. I agree. It's off-putting. I've had every once in a while, I'll have a really properly well-done Japanese... tempura avocado where it's thinly sliced. If a real master does it, it can be good, but... Only Japanese. This is cool, guys. I've never thought about this in my entire life. I've never thought about hot avocado ever before right now. You've never had it? Check your privilege, Chris.

46:33I'm sure, exactly. Check your privilege. I'm sure I've had it before, but it maybe wasn't memorable enough to have stuck with me. You've probably had it. But I guess I probably would have had a tempura at some point, Jason. That's a good point. Yeah, you're a tempura guy. So you don't like hot avocados. So what if there's like an – but you're saying if it's – not just if it's on a hot burger, let's say. You're saying if it's cooked. I see. Okay. I got you.

46:59Jason Stewart:Yeah, the egg inside of the avocado hole is like just because it fits doesn't mean it should go in there. I've never seen that either. Is that like a brunch girly thing or is this like a – Yes. Okay. It was like a low carb lifestyle on Pinterest. Okay. Because what is it called? Egg in a hole when you do it in bread? I love egg in a hole. Yeah. That's really good. So this is the white girl version of that. Yeah. You heat up bread, you got toast. Billion dollar invention. You heat up avocado. It's a foreign. It's a mouthfeel that is off-putting to a human, I would say. I had some disappointing avocado this weekend.

47:39I didn't really want to bring it up. Talk your shit, brother. Well, it just feels like it's high summer. Avocados should be ripe as a motherfucker. And it just was tough. Lazy work. I couldn't eat it. I'll eat anything. I'm a disposal. I don't care. Was it over-ripened or what was wrong with it? It was hard as a rock. So you tell me. Oh, no. And again, I don't keep up with produce seasons because I don't cook. But it feels like summer, all of that shit should be good. Some avocados have their own kind of thing going on, though. They have their own timeline that they work off? They do. And honestly, I remember East Coast avocados being really hard to find a good one.

48:21But now that I'm over here in California, they're a lot more buttery. And they don't go bad as fast. Ooh, I like buttery. Super buttery, dude. I have a tip if you want for how to ripen your avocado really fast.

48:36Jason Stewart:Whoa, please. Asian mom tip coming in. Let's go. So you take a brown paper bag and you put your avocado in it. It could be like rock hard, like just. And you put in either a banana or into the same bag and roll it up. And it's like ready in two days. Something like, I think the apple and banana, they ripened fast. And like it releases some kind of plant chemical that makes the avocado ripen. This is good data. I've never heard this before, and I am inclined to believe you. And I don't know why, but I do. It's true. I've been doing it for years. You get the brown paper Whole Foods bag or Ralph's bag.

49:17Jason Stewart:You put in those stinky brown bananas. You can almost see the stink lines coming off of it like a peanut's character, and all those gases will turbocharge the ripening process of your avos. And then if they get too ripe, I've heard that you can put them, submerge them in water. Oh, damn. Jason knows a lot about avocados. Water in the fridge, and that will hold the ripeness for like a week. Well, he's a Cali. I mean, you know, he's a Cali local. I feel like avocados are your greatest export. They are. There's a new avocado coming out. I mean, I don't know if you guys care about that stuff. It's hot.

49:52What do you mean? What do you mean a new avocado is about to drop? Yeah, it's about to drop. It's been a hit Whole Foods. I was at an avocado farm and they basically said they've been working on this new avocado called the gem. The gem like Jennifer Aniston or the gem? Gem. G-E-M like the lettuce. Gem like the sparkle because it has these little sparkles on it. Golden sparkles. Okay, so you're saying the skin of this new hybrid. Bro, I don't want that. Avocado.

50:22Jason Stewart:Avocado that tastes good. Has body paint on it? It's like gold foil wagyu beef shit. It's dotted with gold flecks, and it's basically an evolution of the Haas. Like, it has a higher fruit-to-seed ratio. So imagine there's just, like, much more avocado flesh. Oh, I see. So there's just more for the getting. So they've genetically modified the avocado pit to be smaller so we get more flesh to pit. It's sort of like what we've done with the seedless watermelon, Chris. Oh, I see. And I do like a seed. I mean, I'm a watermelon lover. With enough fruit ethnic cleansing, we can get those nasty seeds out of here.

51:01Get these seeds out of here. I'm going to colonize some watermelon. That is interesting to know, though, because do you think this is going to make waves in the industry? It is. Do you think this avocado could grow? In the guacamole space? Okay, so you think, what if Chipotle invests? How big do you think this could get? I don't know. I don't know how many places are doing it. The farm I went to is one of the oldest in SoCal. So they're really excited to introduce it. Maybe it'll expand.

51:28Jason Stewart:Is this something that we can invest in? Yeah, you can. I can give you the farmer's phone number. I would love to call the farmer. Hey, this is Chris Black from New York City. I heard you have some new sparkly avocados. Just give me their stock exchange ticker info. I'm assuming they're a publicly traded farm. I'll send my broker a note. I want to pump and dump the gem. I just feel like that's a space that is tough to innovate in at this point in society. So I'm glad that there's some farmers out there pushing us forward. A lot of innovation. Imagine a smaller seed means less bruising as it's getting transported.

52:08Okay. All right. Now we're getting into stuff.

52:11Jason Stewart:Once we fully remove the seed, then we can work on our browning. imagine you slice that avo into cubes and then you put it into the plastic air one tray and it stays green all day long maybe two days oh man i love so you so you're a big fan of gmos as well diana very cool i didn't ask the process of developing these avocados it looks smart well i'm smart i didn't ask how my jordans got made either you're wearing the same boat diana Why are you putting a syringe into the avocado, sir? Don't worry about it. You don't worry about that at all. Hey, Tim Apple, how come my phone's so cheap? Well. You don't want to know.

52:54You don't want to know that, Jason. You do not want to know that.

52:57Jason Stewart:Okay, well, speaking of another food trend that you might be very well versed to speak on, what are we going to do about matcha? Where are we at on the matcha story arc? Is it just getting started? is it time to go bye-bye for a while? Is it going to be up and down for the rest of our lives? What do you predict in the future of the matcha space? Matcha is staying for sure. But actually what the new thing is is hojicha. It's like huge. Everything's hojicha now, which is like the roasted green tea. So does that just have a, it has a different, I mean, I know it's a different thing, but how different is the flavor?

53:37Because matcha tastes like dirt. That's my main complaint. so what is the what do we want what say it again i don't want to mispronounce it hojicha hojicha okay what does the hoe taste like it's nuttier and even earthier even earthier all right so it's it's more dirt mouth with it's kind of honestly it's like a like a fire

53:58Jason Stewart:roasted you know it'll have some some smoky okay nutty flavors mezcal it's mezcal yes yeah oh yeah Yeah, that's a great call. And what do you get it? What do you do? And it's used the same way. It's just like you get a latte. It is. The only thing with the branding on hojicha is like it's not bright and colorful like matcha. So that's going to be a little harder for it to get big. It just looks just like coffee. It's like brown. Oh, it's literally brown. If you have an iced hojicha latte, it'll just look like one of your cold brews with some milk poured in. Oh, I see. So you're saying that the green shade of matcha contributed to its success, and this just looks like brown water, so who cares?

54:45It's just not going to be quite as visually appealing, I think. How much does it cost? Similar? Same. Same as any other matcha. Okay. I'll try one of these next time I go to a fifth wave. There's a place here in New York on, I think it's on Great Jones or Bond, next to the OVO store. It's called 12 something. And there's literally 100 people online. They hand out umbrellas to block people from the sun. And I've never even been able.

55:13Jason Stewart:Like it's the Cartier store in Milan? Yeah, I've never been able to look inside because it's so busy. They're waiting for matcha? Oh, yeah. They're waiting happily for matcha. Diana, how many whisks do you own on your person? I have four, but I only use the mini one. It's the only whisk you need. You don't need the big one. It's the travel size mini one. Yeah. You can aerate better when your hand is closer to the whisk. The other one, it's so far away. You're like, I don't know. It's hard to hold, actually. I mean, with my carpal tunnel, I couldn't whisk with something oversized. So you're not a sniper, more of a close, a little oozy.

55:56Jason Stewart:You want to get real close up to a hand-to-hand compact. They just work better. yeah I think it airs a lot faster so if you want to whip air into it it's better with a small whisk for sure I feel like I've seen Jason don't you have a keychain that's a whisk oh I love those I have one too I got it from CIA the cooking not the government agency but it unfortunately did break but I'm sure they have them on did you use it that was my next question I used it to like break up other powders and things like that Oh my God, what? Jason, I used to whisk an egg. I broke my mini whisker crushing up ketamine.

56:38Damn, I don't think it's supposed to be for that. It's not supposed to be for that, but it's also a novelty that shouldn't beat an egg either. So you guys both are at fault here.

56:48Jason Stewart:It's obviously an ornamental cosmetic use piece, but sometimes you're in a handicapped stall and what do you got? Whisk it up. That's why you keep that thing on. Because sometimes some of your powders can get caked up. So you're using this, you're using, when you're saying you use the smallest whisk, this is for matcha or this is in your life in all of cooking? All of cooking. I only use a small whisk. Wow. Okay. I think most food professionals all swear by small whisk too. We've had a lot of coffee. I know a lot of these chefs have small whisks. I've heard that. I've heard that. I've heard that.

57:22The egos are huge, but the whisks are small.

57:25Jason Stewart:I actually, I have two small whisks and one Big Daddy whisk that I will, I only use the Big Daddy whisk to make like whipped cream, I guess. You do it by hand? That's pretty impressive. Of course. You freeze the bowl, you freeze the whisk, and it's a nice little, you know. Wow. So it's like a beer mug? You put it in the freezer? It's a little, well, basically when you're making whipped cream by hand, if everything is cold, it'll whip a lot easier and faster. like everything meaning the contents and the bowl and the whisk that's right some genius somewhere was like what if we freeze the whisk I mean imagine being the person who invented that freezing the bowl, freezing the whisk yeah I'm sure they're living large from that well that's the problem they're probably dead by now but they did not really hit a payday off of that innovation that is interesting though I've never heard that before and I feel like I've had your homemade whipped cream before wow that's a lot of hand work that's a lot of wrist back action i like couldn't do it too sweet well you know you want to feel because because the cream talks to you you don't just want to look at it you have to listen to it and see the cream will say wait dana you're saying your doesn't speak to you huh that's interesting i use a kitchen aid for that no way i would never okay no it's i bet kitchen aids a sponsor aren't they we use kitchen aid only we only use gmo avocados we don't all cook the same way diana but actually um on a serious note somebody who is with your experience through the years of all the all the creation that you've done on both sides of the cooking spectrum what makes more money food making or food styling when you say food making you mean like cookbooks or do you mean like work in a restaurant just like like creating food or taking food and making it look good.

59:22Jason Stewart:I mean, like styling clothes versus producing clothes. You know what I mean? Could be another way to put it. Honestly, I think they both don't make any money. Because I've done it all. I've done it all. Or I have to do them all. Option C, none of the above. Okay, it's a race to the bottom for all of the above. But you have reached, so you're saying you've reached some of the upper echelons of the food styling world. Definitely. And even then, it's not necessarily cha-ching. No, I've done fast food burger styling. I won't name the brands, but yeah, it doesn't make as much as you think. And then you're at a frying station.

1:00:07You basically feel like you're working in a fast food restaurant. It's not that kind of thing. Can I ask you a question? Because I don't know a lot about food styling. I know that it's a job that people seem to lie about having. I believe you So you're saying that you're responsible Alright let's say you're doing a Carl's Jr. commercial Not in the Paris Hilton way In the burger preparation way So you are in the kitchen You make the actual burger Then you also plate it And arrange it For the camera and then you kind of stand by And zhuzh it throughout the shoot To get it right Is that fair? Exactly Exactly.

1:00:45Okay. And they're pretty strict about their guidelines. Like you have to use their, it's not like you can like make your own artisanal patty or something. If you were working with a food brand. You have to do what they say, but I guess legal reasons. When you see somebody take a bite in a commercial, obviously it's too clean. No one bites like that. Like no one, no one bites into a giant hamburger, you know, and the ketchup, the mustard, maybe the mayo, the avocado, whatever. Doesn't spray out the sauce. No, I think it's all post. A lot of that's post. Okay. That makes a little more sense because it makes the food like the fake steam coming off of it.

1:01:21I'm like, I don't need it to look this good. It looks good, though. I mean, people that style burgers for a living, that could be their only thing. Wow. So you're saying you could be a burger styling specialist? I tried it, but I quit after a few times. Because the burger wasn't inspiring to you? I didn't feel like it aligned with my values. Is that bad to say? Sure, of course. I just didn't want to do fast food.

1:01:44Jason Stewart:So what is considered the holy grail, the top of the top of food styling? Is it fast food? I mean, I guess money-wise, but maybe more so editorial-wise, like working for Bon Appetit or like a certain cookbook or? Yeah, times have changed a lot. Yeah, it used to be. I mean, there obviously is the styling for like a big fast food brand, but that's not what most people aspire to do. I think most people want to do cookbooks and still love doing print magazines. I was an early editor at Kinfolk, so I did a lot of their food. It was food and lifestyle mixed together. I can imagine those clean ceramic plates with some freshly foraged items.

1:02:37Kinfolk was such a moment in time of what it looked like it made my career i have to say it was probably really it did yeah i've had a full-time design job i wasn't like planning to be a food person and i just started to they started to contact with me through my blog it was like i was a blogger you know like blogger era okay and they found me there and then i started to work on all of their issues and also like when they would have um events in brooklyn i would do you know do the food so that's how i started doing food actually so you were just a hobbyist with a job and then kimfo yeah fucked around and changed your life they did they did how do you feel about it though do you wish you were a designer i always miss that like stability of that job but it's been so long and i've done so many other things and gotten to travel and like you know just um yeah i fell into something else it's still the visual side of food if you think about it it's design related no i've always been told from anyone that I know that's made a cookbook like the the photography of the food is is the hardest part almost oh yeah it can be at least requires the most kind of you know what I mean you can't just be in the lab yourself figuring it out you there has to be a team of people there to kind of get it done yeah you need some help for sure but I ended up shooting a lot of the food in in my new book so um yeah it was I've just done it for so long so and also that way you don't have to pay a photographer exactly i had a feeling i had a feeling i had a feeling i was gonna come well yeah the budgets have gotten smaller so teams are smaller and you kind of have to be able to do everything now like to get a deal you still have to have an instagram account or you know you have to be active on social it's it's not enough to just be a good food writer no definitely we're just it's well it's not good the problem is in any field at this point it's not good enough to be good at the thing.

1:04:31You have to do... Especially writing,

1:04:34Jason Stewart:as every writer now has to do a TikTok hosting gig. That's just what it is. Yeah. Just to keep their job. I think that's the big shift is that if you work at a legacy publication, it's sort of understood that you have to be active in a certain way on social media, I think. We all have to be editors now, not just the editor. Exactly. You can't just sit in front of the computer and do your work and go home. But the problem with that, in my opinion, is people will focus on becoming famous first and then focus on becoming good at the thing second because that doesn't matter as much anymore. Yeah, it feels like the people that are true craftsmen that are like really good at the one thing, like if they're not good at social media, they're never going to get a chance.

1:05:21And that's been a bummer to see. But I think it also like you use the tools around you. You have a phone. You can make it happen. like you don't need as much as i think when i was first starting in food like you really back then you kind of had to make your way up towards me through magazines like through the level there was no other option for sure there's no other option yeah i think during the pandemics when i really realized like whoa there are these superstars coming out like pierce aberrnathy just like you know coming out of nowhere that are just like really engaging people and oh yeah that that yeah he's real engaging that's because he doesn't have a shirt on that's what all the ladies say about Pierce.

1:05:57I saw him cooking shirtless. It was engaging, to say the least. I don't know about what he's making most of the time. Nobody does. I understand. So you're saying you've never seen his... Gallops that are mushrooms or something. I've had Pierce's food a few times and it's delicious, but I agree. I'm also distracted by his hair and chest. I can't be bothered.

1:06:18Jason Stewart:Pierce is the only guy who's saying, hey, eyes down here. The food's getting cold. Exactly. Exactly. Babe, why aren't you eating? Exactly. But I mean, I guess the problem, I mean, it has gotten much easier to create this content and become, you know, that person. But it hasn't gotten easier to want to have to do that for a lot of people. And I think that's going to be the next hurdle. Yeah. I think that, yeah, with books, sometimes it feels like it's just merch now for someone's, like, personal brand. It doesn't feel like the... Oh, that's 100 % what it is. Yeah, but that's so sad. I love books.

1:06:56It's a business card. Yeah, I learned to cook through books. That's why I really want it. Well, I think that's why cookbooks are still, you know, they actually sell and can break through in like an Alison Roman way where it's like that is so baked in, no pun intended, to that culture. Yeah. Like there's no replacement for that really. I mean there is, but like having your iPad open to the New York Times cooking up in the kitchen isn't as sexy as cracking your volume and kind of going to the recipe you want to use. And I think that also, I believe because there's so many elements in the kitchen and you don't want to damage your smart device, that a book is the perfect answer.

1:07:39You don't want to get any of that stock.

1:07:40Jason Stewart:A cookbook covered in stains over the years. You don't want that hot stock all over your iPad mini. But if it gets... I would say having the iPad open on the New York Times cooking page that's about that is currently the sexiest way to do it now that we have TikTok and YouTube and Instagram and blah blah blah that is the new version of cookbooks being up and that's the best possible scenario I mean eventually as the attention spans dwindle more it'll be you know audio cookbooks oh wow is that where you think it's going that's where I'd like to go it's hard to get a track though like of where you're at Don't you need images or at least are people used to seeing images?

1:08:23I think, yeah, people are used to images and also the measurements are such a big part of it.

1:08:27Jason Stewart:Look, we're on the precipice, Apple Vision Pro, you know what I mean? The exponential evolution of all this, in two years, there's going to be something where it's just going to project an image of the muffin on your wall. and AI is going to say, did you measure the exact baking soda amount? We shouldn't eyeball the baking soda. We should measure it by weight, whatever. I'm not proud of this, but I'm realizing talking to you both that I've never used a cookbook in my life. I've had plenty sent to me and I've read them and looked at them and I appreciate them as objects, but I've never opened one and used a recipe from it.

1:09:11Is it just too intimidating? I just don't cook. And I've never cooked. And I have no interest in it. But I know so many people who do it for a living. And obviously, I do the show with Jason, who's an expert in his own right. So I just feel like there's always somebody to do a better job than me. Yeah. I mean, you should give it a shot. Or take a class. I'm going to teach cooking outside. You should come take a class. Oh, that'd be real fun. Participatory journalism. of me camping and learning how to cook from you in Ojai? I was trying to get out. Exactly. I want to do fire cooking outside. I can't even have mezcal.

1:09:48What the fuck am I going to do? It's not going to work. It's not going to work for me.

1:09:52Jason Stewart:You have a 35 millimeter camera, Chris. I do have the 35 millimeter. There's a job for you. There's always a job. Do you think that the fire cooking could really take off in a home user way, or do you think it's intimidating to people? I think it's intimidating, but one of the reasons I worked on this new book is because more people bought fire pits during the pandemic and didn't know what to do with them. So people have them in their yards, but they're just not making food over them. So that was one of the goals for the book. That's actually really smart. Yeah, we worked backwards on this. There's data, so fuck it.

1:10:29Let's pander to these people that have a...

1:10:31Jason Stewart:You found a hole to fill. Exactly. They spent three grams. So now that they spend three grand on their smokeless fire pit, and their wife is saying, why don't we sell that on Facebook Marketplace? And you said, hold on, hold on. Hold on, I have just the solution. Hold on, I've been marinating some pork chops for this very occasion. Yeah, exactly. And also, with the rise of protein cookery, this feels like it's aligned with the sort of primal, alpha male angle of me want meat, me want protein, me cook over the fire like the caveman's did. Yeah. There's this huge caveman thing right now. Like, um, I don't know.

1:11:14What do you guys think about how tallow has come, made a huge comeback with beauty and food? I get, I get videos of this ASMR guy rubbing tallow on his face. And then he sprays like extreme amounts of cologne on as well. It's a great, it's a great, I can't remember what it's called. It's great. He's the person who introduced me to tallow on the face. I didn't know that was a thing. This brand sent me tallow SPF, and I wore it out to dinner. And then I ate tallow fried tortilla chips. And I was just so beefy. I felt like I was swimming in it. And my dog went crazy when I put it on. He was like, oh.

1:11:56He gets bones on his birthday.

1:12:00Jason Stewart:so he's like used to that smell okay i'm i'm in palm springs right now it's 109 if i put on the tallow spf and do my fireman carries out there it's gonna start smelling like a noma pop-up out here people are gonna be lining up with their plates like what is that ostrich cooking over there i mean i think that's my opinion on the tallow is we got so afraid and rightfully so of seed oil yeah the the seed scare of 2022 or whatever that we were so turned off by that that we ran so far in the opposite direction that we're like yeah yeah i'll rub animal fat on my face like that's where we're at and there are pros to it i love a properly cooked beef tallow fry but sometimes you know i just had a beef tallow crouton at uh at mini kebab they have a chicken Caesar wrap in a beef tallow crouton it's delicious but it's also you know it it sort of crosses the line of of richness where you know like some things you're like can we just have some olive oil here twin like yeah it's a little greasy I don't need everything to have that sort of because when when when tallow solidifies it creates a sensation that can be odd and off-putting Yeah, it's a little waxy once it's solidified.

1:13:21Jason Stewart:It's a little waxy. It's a little slaughterhouse. It's giving slaughterhouse. Don't talk about Royce DeFive9 like that, Jason. Do not bring that up. All right, Diana, thank you for joining us today. Fire Pit Feast, you can get this wherever cookbooks are sold, correct? Yes. Thank you so much, guys. Such an honor. No, it was fun. Thank you for joining us. And if I ever decide to camp, I'll let you know. Yes, I'd love to take you, guys. We need to see if you can get Hellman's or something to fly out. Get Molly Baz's mayonnaise company to fly Chris and I out to Ojai. Okay. And we'll do a little outdoor cooking sesh.

1:13:58Jason Stewart:I'll see if I can master the grilled romaine or something. Yes, let's do it. Thank you, guys. That sounds fun. Thanks, Anna. We'll see you soon. Have a good one. Later.

1:14:21Every week, the Snap Judgment podcast drops you inside someone's biggest decision. The kind of decision you can only make once. With everything on the line, what do you believe? What do you want? And what would you risk to get it? Find out. Tap to listen now to Snap Judgment from KQED on Spotify. you