842. - Pamela Hanson

28:18Jason Stewart:Depending on the craft services, it's not a bad gig. I think they've gone down in quality over the years, but I could be wrong. You're not making demands for specific menu items? Half the time, I mean, I don't even think about it. You like food? I mean, sometimes it's okay because it's gotten organic and all that. But in the old days in Paris, we used to stop and go sit down at a restaurant and have, like, wine. That's actually insane. We killed two hours. Can you imagine that? Minimum. A day? Yeah, no, that's a very good example of how time has changed. Yes, exactly. You were getting into your lighting bag, Jason?

28:56Jason Stewart:Yeah, whenever you hear people say, you know, photography, it's all just lighting. I hit the shutter and that's it, but 99 % of it is the lighting. And people will argue how much that's bullshit or not. Where do you land on it? I think the light's really important, but I think you have to see the light as a photographer. I think if you're not aware of the light, I don't see how... Sorry, animals have to go outside. I don't see how you can have a point of view. Sure. But I do think that people don't maybe know as much about light now with the digital. And I think they just are like, oh, I'll fix it in post.

29:35And I think that's maybe where it starts getting in trouble. I don't know. What do you think, Chris? You're a creative director. I agree with that. Don't slander me on my own podcast. No, that was a compliment. What I have learned is that, and you know this, and I've seen you do it, so I know it to be true but it's more about how you can relate to the subject than it is any technical thing like there's always somebody you can pay to load the film right figure out the light and do that and do that but you're not going to get it like i just meet people sometimes and i'm like you have zero personality how do you do this job like you have to have you have to be at least curious or interested i think to be successful well you would think yeah you think unless you're shooting

30:21Jason Stewart:landscapes or something but you know when you're when you're shooting humans yeah with the humans or if you're shooting models that are it's becomes very sculptural and it's like really high fashion but even then like i mean avidon was really had an amazing connection with the people he photographed i just think that's the i think that really is what i've at least from my experience that's what the job is and i think all the technical stuff um people just like to be nerds like there's some people that like love gear whether they're a musician right or a photographer or whatever right and then there's other people that are like i don't give a shit about that like i just i want to do my thing and i'll use whatever tools i have i mean i think what my experience is that i mean obviously for years i did it myself i mean i had one assistant and i was like just bring these lights in and but sometimes if i give too much power to an assistant who has a specific point of view for lighting that's not mine is where you get into trouble.

31:21Do you see what I mean? They're like, yeah, I have this great idea, and we're going to put a light here and a light that out. I was like, nah, just use one light and just bounce it. We want some continuous.

31:30Jason Stewart:We're good. To all the aspiring photographers out there who are assistants, you're getting paid not for your ideas, you're getting paid for Pamela's ideas, not your own. Exactly. I had a thought. Or you can bring good ideas. I'm open to listening. Yeah, of course. No, I mean, obviously. Sometimes they have really good ideas. And then I can steal them. Those skateboarders have really good ideas all the time. I agree. You never know. You never know. Then you keep them on payroll so then they can't take your job. You know what I mean? That's the oldest trick in the book. There's a lockdown there.

32:09Did you assist it, though, before you got started or no? I did. I assisted Arthur Algort, but just when he was, I was really his driver. I met him. I didn't know this.

32:19Jason Stewart:I didn't know that. You mean literal, not metaphorical driver of his work? You mean he drove the car? No, I lived in Paris, and I met him while I was living in Colorado, and I started looking at fashion magazines. I didn't really think about fashion. I was working for a fashion photographer there because I had to have a job, and I had met a fashion photographer in New York. I was working at a gallery in Boston. and we came for the sales. And I was like, what's a fashion photographer? And he was like, oh, you become an assistant. I was like, wow, okay, I could do that and make money. Because I was going back to live with my boyfriend that my parents disapproved of.

32:53So they cut me off and they had been helping me. So I was like, okay. Wow, Pam, I didn't take you as a bad girl like that. So I was like, okay, who's the local fashion photographer? And I called him up and he was like, I don't really need an assistant in Denver. and I ended up working for him for under minimum wage for a year and I printed all his stuff he did all these newspaper ads for the local department store and then I my boyfriend was also a photographer so then I started doing makeup for him which I was really bad at but then I had looked at Arthur's pictures and Lisa who did the introduction to my book was modeling at the time and she knew him and I was so I called him I was like I'm coming through New New York.

33:39And he took me out for lunch, which is amazing. He didn't know me from a hole in the ground. And he looked at my book. He was like, get rid of this. This is good. This is bad. This is good. And he was like, you probably won't be a very good assistant. But if you move to Paris, you speak French. I think he liked that he thought that I came from like a good family because he always liked that. So I moved to Paris. And when he came, I had a car. So I drove him around and I spoke French. And I helped him. That is that is quite helpful. I have to say, I mean, if you don't speak French and you don't drive, then you're offering a pretty good deal.

34:12Jason Stewart:That's more than most Coloradians possess, I would say. Yeah, for sure. No offense to the fine state. But you grew up in Switzerland? Yeah, I grew up in Switzerland. So you learned French there? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I grew up speaking French. I went to grade school in French. Okay, so you... But his assistants would... So that's how I started like three... I worked for him like four or five times. and I started going on shoots and helping him, you know, because he had other assistants, but that was my assisting. This is like prime time for him or is this like a little before? This is prime time. 80s, early 80s actually, because then I went on my own kind of 84.

34:52So you only did it for a couple years. I really just did it like three or four times because it was just like he would come to Paris to shoot the Couture or to shoot for Vogue, you know, that was the only time and the rest of the time I was just scrambling around trying to, taking little tiny pictures that went in the front of the magazine.

35:10Jason Stewart:Oh yeah. The little square ones. Showing up at the magazines every day like, I happen to be in the neighborhood. Do you have anything for me to do? Actually physically going to the office and being like, y 'all need pictures? Yes, because this was free. You could do that. And they were like, yeah, can you go photograph this woman's garden like an hour and a half out of Paris? I feel like driving Is really the reason you have a career I feel like this is really I never realized how important It opens doors It really does, no pun intended It seems like it opened a lot of doors for you It did And when I went on vacation I just went to my parents in Geneva And I drove And then somebody canceled a job Early January for Marie Claire And the guy called me and he's like I've got a real story for you it was a beauty story so i drove back to paris how far is geneva from paris six hours oh i thought i i didn't realize it was drivable like that i guess i never thought about it five when pam's driving though yeah she's yeah lead foot lead foot pam at the wheel you got to be careful you uh you you you mentioned lisa your friend who wrote the introduction lisa love right my wife my wife is a is a big fan of hers and of yours as well but whenever we're at a party and lisa shows up with the with the shades on yeah it's just like oh royalty has entered the room but the photo of she's a cool customer cool customer but the photo of you and where it's you and her when you're like five years old in the photo booth yeah it's like the cutest pic i've ever seen in my life it's so it's so sweet i love it thanks that's and you that's you making the goofy face i'm assuming of course and then lisa has the perfect model-esque smile even exactly It was obvious even at that age.

37:01Jason Stewart:You're like, so who's taking the photo and who's getting photographed? Got it. Okay. That's really funny. I've never been to Geneva and I really want to go. And I have a friend who goes all the time for watch stuff and she loves it. And I just feel like I haven't had a reason. But is the natural beauty enough to pull me to the motherland? It's ridiculously beautiful. I mean everything I didn't like about Geneva Growing up there that was kind of boring and Bourgeois I love about it now even though I don't Go back that much anymore since my parents Died but it's like oh there's Nothing really to do okay that's Nice I had honestly never thought about Geneva until you I you posted you I think We discussed we talked about it already you posted All these photos of your mom who's like Yeah your mom was like a Very chic woman and the house Was so beautiful it just it really made it look appealing like it really it's really and it's really beautiful there we went back in january because we sold the house and stayed at a hotel and it was weird staying in a hotel after you've spent your entire life in the same house because that house did you grow they were they still the house you grew up in yeah that is weird yeah that is weird but it was still so beautiful i mean switzerland's incredible it looks like i say it looks to like a screensaver in the summer especially I think the way that like Aspen sort of can where it's just like this looks insane how lush something is.

38:26It's ridiculous. And the cows are really clean and the water is really blue. And the flowers are really red. The hills are alive. They've got clean cows. They are alive. They've got clean cows. That's a good that's a big selling point for me. You smell that? Personally. Exactly.

38:40Jason Stewart:Nothing. This is a clean cow country we got here. Oh, that's really funny. I think also in the intro, there's a quote from Lisa talking, I think talking about your photography saying she made everything look as it should, which was, was something that really kind of reached out to me. And that's like, kind of like the, the hidden talent or the secret, you know, sixth sense of a real photographer is how you're able to kind of capture that word. Just looks as it should can mean anything, but you know it when you see it, you know what I mean? Yeah, I think it was, you know, when I first moved to Paris and I lived with her, all of my friends were models and all of that's who we hung out with.

39:26That's who we hung out with. So that's who I photographed and they were putting their makeup on and they were, you know, at first I didn't really do fashion because I wasn't, didn't really understand or care about it as much. yeah so i was really interested in the girl so it ended up being more beauty and a lot of lingerie and i mean the first commercial i did which was i think 1984 the art director was english and he's like just i'm doing a bra commercial you're perfect for it and i was like i don't know how to do a commercial and he was like it's really easy i'll get you a dp and i was like all right cool so we the first commercial i did the girl this is so french it was a 30 second commercial for 25 seconds she was walking around topless and it was like the camera was following her in the apartment and she was having coffee and she was fixing the flowers and then the end she puts the

40:15Jason Stewart:bra on this was on this was for television broadcast obviously the breasts are out of frame unfortunately no they're in frame oh they're in no you can no yeah this is france it's from the waist up she has this little underwear on she's walking this beautiful apartment and saying i have my coffee and talking about this, you know, lingerie. Jason's scandalized by this. He's a little bit of a prude. I mean, I don't know. In my mind, in my mind, you know, if I'm going to put on my Don Draper hat, you know, it's, it's from nipple up. We never see the bare breasts. And then at the end she puts the bra on.

40:50Jason Stewart:So then we realized she was topless the whole time, a little bit hotter. That's all I'm saying. That's why, that's why we can tell that you're from Southern california and not france but i agree with you okay i agree with you from an advertising perspective but i think when you have that i've seen breasts before okay i'm a grown man come on like i just want to be clear i not on tv in real life that sounds like a great commercial i'll check it out on youtube it does it's just really funny that that so i think what she meant was that it was just they were very honest images because it was just recording which other people had done in different ways, but it was just an intimacy with the models that maybe and I guess from a woman to a woman maybe.

41:31That's what I was going to mention. The female gaze of it all I think is very important. I think that's something that I really love Angela Hill's pictures and it's the same. It's a similar. It's a reverse Terry Richardson.

41:43Jason Stewart:It's a very safe space. It's like a girlhood and a sisterhood thing that a man just can't capture, I don't think. I think that was the beginning of it too because the other obviously there was like Sarah Moon and Deborah Tuberville and Annie Leibovitz who were doing incredible pictures but it was a different it was more mannered I think maybe I was doing images that were more honest and more intimate in a way that felt very real and I think maybe that's why it stood out more I don't know yeah for sure I mean an Annie Leibovitz image even then feels like there's 50 people there making it happen which is why they're great but it doesn't feel super off the cuff or natural, let's say.

42:28And you still have your home too, so you're doing pretty good. I could resist.

42:37Jason Stewart:You were talking about assisting back in the day, driving, processing, developing, and things like that. Were you retouching yourself, your own photos, yourself, or did you have somebody else doing it? We didn't retouch. I had a darkroom in my bathroom in Paris, so I just put like a wooden board over the bathtub. And also the labs were so good. I mean, the quality of the negatives, it's just not the same. Okay, so you never really had to retouch? No, nothing is retouched. I mean, when we scanned, we had to scan everything to put in the book. One model, I'm not going to say who it was, requested some light retouching in areas, but nobody else.

43:18Jason Stewart:Naomi Campbell, Naomi Campbell. obviously you can't say anything but that'll be my guess that's actually that's actually so cool to be that aware of your image and what's going on that you're like no no no we're not we're not gonna even though i'm one or in a few photos in a book of a thousand i'm gonna make sure even though i was at the peak of my beauty at the time and i literally i respect it on every level but that's i mean when you're when you're putting together a book like this that spans so many years do you have to get in touch with everyone like the publications the models everyone or is it no like you don't i wanted to get releases from the models out of respect for them okay and you know so 90 of them i mean there's some that honestly i was like a one shoot i don't know where they are i don't know how to reach them we tried to reach everybody but no and everybody was super it was actually an amazing process i just out of respect for them yeah because you never know you know no that's a nice thing too i i was gonna say i'm sure there are some people that slip through the cracks you know that aren't you know let's say online in 2025 exactly exactly yeah that's nice to get there because i feel like people just don't do anything they don't have to do and when it comes to stuff like because the process is so i mean this took you a year i mean this is well the last year was when i mean it took me like i was working on it probably two or three years just going through my archives and i was like oh maybe i should do a book oh i love this picture oh i love that picture so that was kind of i started by editing my archives i have so much stuff in storage and i was like do i need the lingerie negatives from 1983 don't know who the client was don't know who the girl was don't like the pictures why am i paying for those sure um and after that so then i just started editing and so it was really a year once i worked with joseph we selected the images then that my team had to scan everything and get the releases and that was that took a minute yeah once you yeah one i mean the more people get involved the longer things take yeah in situations like but i'm glad i'm glad we did that because i think it's been really nice for the girls too and the response was really sweet and everybody seemed really happy and yeah and even if you're a you know a top supermodel from the 90s we are living in the instagram age and we all need content so you know boy is that true naomi's like great now i need something to put up on the grid on tuesday for the algorithm you use instagram you use instagram like a normal person i would say i try to use it just because i guess it's useful i mean i'm not against i'm not well chris what do you mean by using it as a normal person versus somebody using it as their like professional portfolio.

46:04Jason Stewart:I guess I just mean it feels like it comes from you. It doesn't feel like it's coming. Right. It does come from me. Obviously, you're going to post work, but you're also going to post videos of dogs. It's not some insane overthought thing. No. Everyone's like, do you do your own Instagram? I was like, of course I do. It's fun. Do you look at Instagram a lot? And I want to control it. Do you look at it a lot? I try not to, but I do kind of if I'm in a cab and I'm going up to, you know, stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It is kind of a mind fuck, but it's also really interesting. And I feel like you kind of have to today.

46:41That's exactly right. You do. I don't know. I mean, we know some people who don't use it, but they're in a position where they look at it as a professional tool only. And there's somebody who could do that for them, which I totally get. I'm not in that position. I have to use it to make money and talk about myself. and if I were in a different position I would love to not but it doesn't I don't think it affects my like mental the way it does some people like it doesn't I'm not jealous of someone's vacation or whatever yeah no me either I don't care about that at all you go on a lot of vacations if anything I'm like that looks like a cool place you're like oh I may want to go there

47:19Jason Stewart:Chris do you ever get jealous of maybe somebody's physique in the gym selfie though? all day long no absolutely I don't like you could post a picture of your food at this restaurant I keep scrolling I'll give you a like obviously but I'll keep scrolling thank you but but with a if I follow one of my gym guys and he's if I was showing off my teardrop quads or my v-shaped abdomen area then you might feel some the same way that our wives might feel about somebody off the coast of Ischia like oh that's how big of a boat you got fucking bitch yeah no 100 but it is it is changed it's it's changed how we perceive our looks for sure i think overall you're comparing yourself to someone all the time yeah i'm happy for you it's changed so much um i think it's changed a lot of how we see things yeah for sure oh yeah but i think having a healthy relationship with it is becoming more of a trend i don't is maybe the wrong word but i think it's people are thinking about it more and not in a extreme like binary like i either use this all the time or i have to throw my phone out the window I think people are starting to be like, I can use this for an appropriate amount of time and get what I need from it.

48:29Unless you're 16 or 12. Are you around kids like that? No, I'm not. But I was just thinking when you were saying that, I said, yeah, everyone I know is saying that. Even like kids in their 30s or, you know, like your guys' age, I guess.

48:44Jason Stewart:In the same way that some people have, I'm able to have a couple glasses of wine at dinner. Right. And 12-year-olds might not be able to make that responsible decision the same way with Instagram. And I think they're more obsessed in comparing themselves anyway. Oh, yeah. It's a whole other conversation. I think about it the most when it relates to like when we would leave school, it was over for the day. I know. You know what I'm saying? Like when I got home at 3 o 'clock, then it's up to Chris to hang out, to make himself busy, to hang out with people that he actually likes. And now it's like you're just – whatever is wrong is something you can't escape.

49:17That's what's the most terrifying. to me well you used to be able to be bored yeah that's why yeah true someone was saying last night well i read the news on instagram i was like you can't have that as your news source it's just

49:30Jason Stewart:wrong you're like let me stop you right well what i only follow al jazeera and cnn and the wall street journal you know it is possible to get news from instagram but you shouldn't have that as your only source i would say yeah you have to be careful you have to be mindful of what you're watching and hearing i guess you have to be an expert at knowing what is real and what is fake luckily chris and i are i mean thank you so much you can't go backwards and i'm not nostalgic at all but it is true like looking at all those images when i was researching the book there's just a kind of ease and intimate i was the only one taking pictures there were like i was talking to a friend of mine who's a model and i was like what goes on backstage now with the shows because it used to be there was three you know there was a photographer from vogue there was a photographer from bazaar and one news you know you had to have special passes and she goes now it's just influencers and there's thousands of people with phones that changes the whole nature of the image you know nobody wants a great you know candid shot of a model changing they want i also have to be in the photo now so you and i are gonna sit right you know me and turlington are gonna have the selfie together because if i'm not in the photo then it's not worth it I know you're in hair and makeup right now, but if you could just look at me, that'd be great.

50:46But even when you're shooting them in hair and makeup, they're like, wait, where's this going? What's happening? Who's this for?

50:51Jason Stewart:What are you going to use this for? Because they don't know who you are. Exactly. It's tough. It's tough out there. Okay, well, going back to the 90s, this is more of a Chris question, though, I thought of when I was thrumming through the pages. Of all the 90s girls in this book, Chris, who was the one for you? that's tough that is actually tough um i would say honestly christy turlington and her prime is pretty as as good as it gets as far as that was my that was my suggestion as well i i think you're not alone i hate to break it to you guys but yeah all right guys calm down that's not it's like two guys saying pizza is our favorite food right i like ice cream that's what i was say I think it's partly because she I've seen her around in the last whatever decade and she looks amazing and she's like I just think there's something to be said about about in today's world like aging appropriately and how like powerful it is basically that like you look amazing but you also look your age and I think that is some that is something that is it's so rare now that I think it really stands out.

52:03And just the way she leads her life and the choices she's made and that, you know, I mean, in that 90s documentary or whatever, you know, that whatever it was, I forget who did it was at HBO or whatever. Yeah, she says early on. She goes, Yeah, when they told me that I was too big for the fashion show, I was like, that's it. Now I'm gonna go back to school. You know, she went back to school when she was still super busy. She decided to renegotiate Calvin Klein contract. He was all like 20 years old. I was like, I still wouldn't have the wherewithal to do that. I'd still be like, okay. No, it's great.

52:40You guys are paying me. I'm happy. Yeah. I mean, I think that also models, you know, especially during that, you know, it's like if you're 13 at a mall in Iowa and, you know, you get moved to New York, I think that it's going to be tough to make clear headed decisions, even if you're 18, 19 at that point. Really hard. but she had a general and she is ridiculously beautiful. Yeah, of course. I mean, even now, because I know her and she's a friend, like we'll be having dinner and I'll be like, I don't know, your neck is so incredible. Your neck? Your neck is so long. You're like, I just can't turn it off.

53:17Your neck, I mean, this is unbelievable. That's beautiful. You've got the neck of a teen. You realize that it's anyway, there's something about it. No, I mean, those people of that caliber are literally built different. Like, it's a different thing. And you don't lose some of that just because you get older. Like, that still exists. No, I said to my friend, Bronagh, I was like, wow, Christy's next. She goes, I know. It's always been amazing. And I was like, I never, I was so, like, in it with all the models emotionally that I was rarely like, oh, let me look at her as a. Yeah, like an actual. Yes.

53:52I also think a lot of those, the candid photos of all of those girls in that era, like they look cool now. Like models now are wearing like, you know, Balenciaga and look insane. Whereas like Christy Tillington's wearing a pair of jeans and a t-shirt. Kate Moss is wearing like gazelles. Right. It's like a very, it's oddly very on trend right now. You know what they looked like? They sort of made that cool and it ages so much better than a lot of things. yeah you know models had longer lives they started you know now i don't i mean i don't shoot that many models anymore but i think it's like oh no you can't she won't do a double shoot you know she won't do a shoot with another model i'm like but nobody knows her you know in those days you could get christy and naomi they would work together you know you could get and create pictures and they would get experience and it was just a very different slow down did you slow down at any point like when you had kids you slow down a little bit or did you just work all the way through when i had kids i worked all the way through then i think in the early when digital started i kind of had an identity crisis i was like what am i pictures supposed to look like now hang on and i feel like then when i started going through my archive it was like oh no this is what you want to do this is what you like to do this is what you're good at like don't see that and that i think is the problem with seeing so much and everything's watered down like i see oh they're doing they're redoing the avidon west shoot for some like how can you copy that oh yeah i mean that's every year every year they read i'm sorry every year they redo that you don't actually think you can do that yeah i don't know if people think they can actually do it i just think there's a a level of like we ain't got no ideas left like i just don't know especially i mean i think a lot of these younger a lot of younger photographers like never had to assist they're so they you you can make a real living very fast without doing any work really you know like as far as far as like understanding sort of how things work and how you can't just go do avidon but also understanding what you see and how you see things i mean that's what's going to make the difference totally you know you may show you may be like hey i want to do a shoot inspired by the avidon american west shoots as you know like a white background out in the field but then you know a photographer should be like yeah but i need you know you should bring your own point of view into it yeah of course maybe you don't have different lighting or maybe you have a different so you can work together on concepts but i have i just feel like so much of it is just being outright copied and that maybe photographers don't know what they really see or what they really like because it becomes they don't maybe they don't have time to develop that they weren't doing the little pictures in the front of the magazine of the woman's garden in paris no they no they really weren't i mean i think that i think there's some of that i also think that just it's a different there's you have access to too much yeah we talk about this a lot on how long

56:54Jason Stewart:gone but like you're right the blessing and the curse of the barrier of entry being lowered i had I wanted to go buy a book or a magazine if I wanted to see what was in it. You know what I mean? And that's like how you develop what you like. If you can see everything all the time all together, I think that can sort of work against you. I completely agree. Work against you. When everyone can do everything on a phone, I can make an album, film a movie, do a photo shoot on my phone. 99 % of it is going to be horse shit. And then 1 % of it is going to be a genius, you know, new idea being created.

57:29It's really true. I also wanted to talk to you about water skiing. Because I told Jason in the intro. I love to water ski. I was like, Pam is an avid water skier.

57:40Jason Stewart:Yeah, I want to talk about smoking cigarettes. He wants to talk about water skiing, the duality of this show. Oh, my God. I miss cigarettes so much. How long ago did you stop? I've gone off and on since I was 16. I feel like I've... But I officially stopped a year ago. No, I've smoked with you. I officially stopped a year ago I finally was like I just can't do this anymore Okay so not even Like a cheeky occasional Look good for you I mean I love smoking And it's so fun and it's social But you're not like a nicotine gum You're like I'm good Did that phase that didn't work What was your brand of cigarette My original brand of cigarette You guys probably don't even know what it is Were Larks they had like charcoal filters i saw a picture my agent at the time i used to smoke larch and then it became you know american spirits what color yellow there we go love a yellow spirit what about you guys i went from uh parliament to a to a yellow spirit as well parliaments like lark oh yeah yeah but are you back on parliaments though aren't you uh i mean a little bit a little bit of parliament uh yeah or the hestia as well shout out to hestia yeah there's like a guy we know what's that it's basically like the only existing independent cigarette brand that's like the cleanest basically it's i mean it's kind of like what american spirit was when it first came out like pure organic no big tobacco um which is oh that's good it was fascinating to me just because starting a cigarette, I don't even know how to wrap my head around that.

59:24Insurmountable task. Yeah, insurmountable task. Although social smoking is up, so maybe it was a good idea. You hang out with a lot of young people, so you're seeing what's going on. They smoke. They smoke. Well, the people you hang out with definitely smoke. I'll get a cardinal to the house, Pamela. You'll love it. I didn't mean to divert us from the water scheme. No, no, no, that's okay. Back to the beautiful art of water skiing. But is this something you did as a kid? No, I was a big downhiller because obviously growing up in Switzerland, that's what we did year round. And then one summer, I think I learned how to water ski in Crete on a family vacation when I was 16 because I had a big crush on the water ski instructor.

1:00:05Classic. These water sports guys always win. They always win. And then I went in the south of France after I had kids one summer before we came to the Hamptons. And I was like, ah, I should water ski in the air. I forgot how much fun this is. One thing led to another, and then I bought a little boat. So you have the boat, you have the skis, and who is your go-to driver? Like, who do you trust the most behind the boat wheel? I trust Doug Lloyd. Do you know who Doug Lloyd is? I don't think I know. He's a creative director. But anyway, I ski with him and another friend of mine. I have two friends that I trust to drive me.

1:00:40But I've seen people we know, and when I see them skiing, are you driving? yes okay yeah so so you're also i love i love taking people water skiing it's fun like jeff and sarah i've seen jeff and sarah who's better jeff or sarah jeff water skis sarah wakeboards i mean jeff is a really good he grew up in minnesota he was jumping on the wakeboard that's true he comes from a skateboarding background as well that's true i i'm very interested in in skiing in both water and snow you have to come out come out come out and visit It will take you water skiing. I don't know how much time you have for me to learn.

1:01:19I got time. The season is short. I got time. I would love to watch you bust your ass for two hours until you finally figure out how to do it.

1:01:27Jason Stewart:How bad does it hurt when you really eat shit on that glassy water? I have bruise. That's why I wear a wetsuit, a short wetsuit, because I have bruise. Otherwise, I don't take as many risks as I used to. But it's so much fun. I mean, it's just talk about clearing your head. You just can't think of anything else. Right. Just hold on. And every time it's like, am I going to be able to get up again? Am I going to remember? And then when you're out there like early in the morning and no one's there, I mean, it's incredible. And it's fun being on the boat. That's why I like taking people. That's like why I take Sarah and Jeff and the kids.

1:02:01It's just really fun to be out there.

1:02:05Jason Stewart:We got to get a boat, Chris. I recommend it. what is your also i i've run into you several times having like a long lunch and i feel like that's something that you're passionate about and i feel like jason could also be passionate about that but maybe hasn't gotten to that point in his life do you have any tips on sort of what are the what are the keys to long lunching is it is it just a conversation lust for life okay just conversation and being in a place where you're comfortable and they don't rush you to get out okay so that's why i always go to bar pd they don't rush you out like home yeah well tuesday at one o 'clock it's a little more mellow over there than it is you know friday night at 8 p.m true but that's not a lunch that's a dinner that is when you're when you're a long lunch at bar pd are we outside or inside depending on the day i like the corner table inside i mean i don't i it depends what i'm doing whether or not i'm long lunching obviously no i'm not saying that you're every day for three hours.

1:03:06I'm just saying I feel like that's something I also like it, but I get anxious if I'm there too long because I'm often with someone who really has nothing to do. And so I'm like, I don't want to be the guy on my phone, but I'm like, I have to earn money for my family. So it's a tough duel. Well, you're young and you're prime. You're right. You do need to work. If this is my prime, I'm concerned, but I'm hopefully inching.

1:03:33Jason Stewart:I think maybe, you know, like you were saying, you know, conversation being the key point, you know, as I've gotten older and as Chris and I have interviewed all these amazing people over the last few years on the show, the amount of conversations that I enjoy, it's pretty low. Like, I feel like, you know, my brain, my nerve endings in my brain have been burned off and you have to be, it has to be like Salman Rushdie or some level of conversation to get me fucking going. Don't beat around the bush. When you're with the best three times a week, it's going to be hard. It's true. You guys do a really good job, though.

1:04:11Well, thank you. Thank you. Jason, I actually feel the opposite because I think that now I know I'm more able to take it in a direction that is interesting for me. Listen. And hopefully that works for the other person. I am so interested in people that I love listening to podcasts. I'm like, I could do that. I want to interview people. People always say to me, like, you should have been an interviewer. So I was shooting, get this, Woody Allen, a portrait of Woody Allen for Marfa Magazine. When was this? This was like two months ago. And I was like, should I do it? Is it wrong? Have you met him before?

1:04:52No. I mean, I saw him once, get this. My gym in Paris was at the plaza, at the Ritz, I mean, because they had this great, and I was in the gym one day with Jane Fonda and Woody Allen. You know, funnily enough, this is so strange. I've been in a gym with Jane Fonda as well because she lived in Atlanta. Right. And at the gym I went to, she would come with her little dog at like, I would show up hungover at like 1 p.m. and that was Jane's workout time. Isn't that hysterical? So you've seen Woody, obviously. If you live in New York, you see Woody, but you've never interacted with him. No, and the girl from the magazine was interviewing him.

1:05:29She's from, that's based in London. Yeah. And I was just biting my tongue because I was like, I wanted to keep going, well, what about, what about this? What about that? She was doing the classic interview on set, which can be problematic for everybody involved, depending on the. I mean, I knew what I was getting into, so it was fine. And I was very curious. How long did you have with Woody? Like an hour. I didn't really need a lot of time. It was in his library at his house. He was very easy. she said what do you think about jeff bezos getting married in venice and stealing that's where you got married and he was like i don't know the guy has money he wants to have a big wedding let him have a big wedding and i was like and then yeah he's like i don't give a fuck how do you get inspired like what's your inspiration he goes well i you know i work in bed and i say oh well there's a guy and he's going to get a divorce oh and then he hires an investigator oh and then this happened it was just so kind of woody he's like i've made he's like i've he's like i've made the same movie 30 times i think i i just kind of do my thing i don't know i've mastered it yeah i've literally mastered i'm woody god damn it my genre yeah i'm inspired by it comes to me my shit my own shit that's right but you're you shoot a lot for town and country now too right i have shot it depends on the stories i don't shoot a lot but i shoot for them a little bit depending on what we're doing what is your what is your appetite as far as work goes now do you feel like you are you at a point where you only just do stuff that's interesting to you yeah that's fun or that you know financially beneficial sure of course there's that everyone's got a price everyone's got a price you know i've been shooting for netflix a lot which i actually really like i really like the people at netflix it pays well and you shoot really interesting people and they're really cool so i went to tell you ride for them shout out to our

1:07:20Jason Stewart:our netflix family you did you set up like a little studio type thing no i didn't i shot them like outside on you know i wanted to look like telluride because i was like well you're hiring me you don't need me to do a studio that's not what yeah yeah it's funny a lot of people ask that well because that's usually what they do at those right right like vanity fair will have one or new york magazine will have one you know that's usually what the but then it kind of looks the same i wanted to kind of do them out it was cool that was fun i enjoyed it so is it's it's all kinds of obviously netflix has plenty of things at telluride so it's all kinds of people or was it focused on one project no it was a couple of projects but i was interested in meeting the i got to shoot the directors like richard link letter and noah baumbach who i know but and then the guy that did conclave big noah named edward berga oh yeah yeah i made a joke about richard link later in the fucking intro that's a funny oh you did how funny just a classic austin keep Austin weird joke.

1:08:17You know, you got to think of Linklater when you get into that.

1:08:20Jason Stewart:Actually, I was thinking, sorry to interrupt you, Chris. My wife is a wardrobe stylist, and she's talked about how, you know, we were talking about influencers behind the scenes and taking photos and people's relationships with their own image is a lot different now than it was before. Right. And she said it's quite common nowadays to see mirrors set up on set so the model can see themselves while they're being shot? Is this something that you've noticed as well? Well, I think there was always mirrors. I mean, the top girls would put the outfit on and look at themselves to see. I mean, that was part of what made them so great, to see how it moved and to understand the clothes.

1:09:04So we didn't do it so they could see themselves. Well, you could do that if you were shooting in a studio, which I didn't shoot a lot in the studio. But yeah, that makes sense. so they can kind of see what they're doing and get an idea.

1:09:18Jason Stewart:Yeah. Have you seen that at all, Chris? I didn't know that was a thing that happened. Like directly, like they're looking at themselves in the mirror while they're being shot. I've never seen that. I'm sure there are some divas out there that demand that and they probably are the people that don't deserve it, is my guess. You know, is my guess on the vibe. It seems a little... Distracting. I would initially have a negative opinion of it, But now, you know, I don't like when I'm getting my photo taken, I don't know how the fuck I look. And they're like telling me to move to my left. Is it your left?

1:09:50Jason Stewart:I don't want to know. I don't want to know how I look, though. That's the thing. You're not a model. Your job, if you're a model or you're modeling something, then you're supposed to understand. Thank you for reminding me. Thank you for reminding me that Jason and I are both not models. I'm just good to remember. Not that you couldn't be. I'm not saying you couldn't be. Thank you. Thank you for that concession. I can do some hand modeling. I just don't think that anybody I don't know it's more fun not to If I was doing that job I think it'd be more If I you know trust the person I'm working with I'm like let's rock do your thing Seems like it would be too much control And too much distraction Well it's also I mean it's fucked us up like I'm on zoom all fucking day looking at myself I don't want to see that Like I don't you know I would prefer I mean you know I'd prefer not to see myself All day it's just not normal Is she your wife talking about models or actors A little bit of buff or a little bit of both yeah right it feels very actory to me especially like maybe i'm new to this but i'm hot so i can make some right you know sort of demands you know to make myself feel more comfortable sure wheel it over it does sound more actory very very actors what are we going to do i can't leave can't live with them can't live without them so the the dashwood thing is i'll see you tonight yes great yes it's tonight and then what what else are you doing for the are you doing some other stuff?

1:11:07Is there an after party? Friday, I'm getting a Lifetime Achievement Award from Daily Front Row, which is apparently kind of cheesy, but fun. That's really fun. At the Rainbow Room. That makes it extra fun. Christy's introducing me and giving me the award, which is really sweet. And then on the 18th, I have a show opening. It's Daily Wise. So come on the 18th. I'm going to be out of town. And then I'm doing London and Paris. I figured you were going to do Where are you going? I'm actually going to this wedding and then I'm going to Lanzerhof. Oh, I love Lanzerhof. But there's a new one in Germany.

1:11:46So that's where I am going. The original one was in Germany and then the other one was, are you going to where the sand dunes are?

1:11:54Jason Stewart:It's called Silt. Oh yeah, that looks amazing. Dying to go there. So you've been, Pamela. Yeah, I've been there and I've been... You've huffed. I've huffed. It's incredible. How snatched did you feel when you left? And then I went to Viva Mare, which during the pandemic, which is in Austria. Well, I think of Austria as the place for these sort of like, I don't even know what you call them. How did you end up going to Lanzerville? Because I've been trying to go for like five years and they finally - He has body dysmorphia, so it's only a matter of time. They said, you know what? Fine, fine. You've dealt with enough, Chris.

1:12:31Are you going by yourself or are you going with your wife? Yeah, I'm going by myself for nine days or eight days, I think. But I had a pre-call with the doctor. Yeah. And the doctor was like, what do you want? I was like, I'll literally do anything. Like, I don't care. I'm like, I'll do. Like, you want to do cell replacement? I'm like, sure. My cells must be fucked. Let's do it.

1:12:52Jason Stewart:So you're like, we're going to test out new procedures on me. I'm your guinea pig. I'm your pin cushion. Do whatever you want. I just feel like they're dealing with a lot of people that come in there with a lot of. Specific goals. very specific needs and goals. And I'm a little bit more like I'm here to have the experience and then write about the experience. So I need to have. Oh, is that what you're writing about it? Is that what you're going? Yeah, I'm writing. Yeah, I'm writing about it. Yeah. Oh, that's good. I don't know any man who's been, I have one friend, my friend, Jeremy has been, I don't know any other man that has been.

1:13:22Who are you writing about it for? GQ. That's so great. It's supposed to be beautiful. We went during the pandemic and there was no foreigners because no foreigners were allowed to travel into Austria. We got special permission. So there was a lot of local people there who were just going because, you know, like there was this cute young guy who was like a professional swimmer or something who was just going to kind of. But the Austrians are definitely not fun. We'd be like, fine. We were hiking.

1:13:52Jason Stewart:The Austrians aren't known for fun. How do I say it? They're not fun people. Yeah. Do you have any tips for Chris? I mean, Helmut Lang and Helmut Lang and Portola is Austrian and they're amazing. He makes a good pair of jeans. Do you have any tips for me? No, just have fun and take lots of movies. We watch lots of all the... I had screeners, I think. So we watched tons of movies. I'm fucked. I need to work and I've been told that part of the process after a couple days is your brain is operating in a way that it normally doesn't. Like you're so clear that you're really able to like focus is what I've been told.

1:14:30I don't remember. It sounds like when you do like a, like a cleanse. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You took what lessons? Cooking. They had a cooking class for like organic. Yeah. They, they offer that. I'm like, I don't want to do any of that. I was doing that because I was like, do I get an extra snack? If I make the broth, do I get anything else?

1:14:50Jason Stewart:You might be able to be able to smuggle some, smuggle some raisins in a pocket or something like that for later. Is that an olive I found under the refrigerator? Okay, so they do restrict your diet there, Pamela? Is that true? I think you can make, you know, you can choose. I went because I'd had COVID and I was like using it as like COVID recovery, even though I wasn't that sick. Even though I'm fine, I just, you know. I thought maybe I do have some long-term effects. Sure. But you can go for weight loss. You could just tell them what you want to do. I mean, there's people there that were seriously sick.

1:15:22You could tell there were people that were recovering from chemo. There was people that had some serious disorders. I just want to be clear to you and our audience. I'm not getting a facelift. I'm not going to recuperate from anything. This is straight up.

1:15:38Jason Stewart:You don't have a terminal illness that you've created in your own mind either, except for the dysmorphia. Except for the dysmorphia. But I think that's a, yeah, I guess when I talked to the doctor, she also wanted to make it very clear to me that it was like, you can go like smoke a cigarette. You can go like into, you can do whatever you want. This isn't rehab. You know what I mean? This isn't a halfway house. We're not going to cattle prod you if you leave. Yeah, this one, this one English woman was telling me that, or that one of the doctors was telling me this woman, you're not supposed to have coffee.

1:16:10But they would go into town every day to have like coffee and a glass of wine. But that's me. I'm definitely having coffee. Which I didn't want to do, because I'm like, I just want to have this experience and see how I can, you know. I'm all the way here.

1:16:22Jason Stewart:Might as well do it the right way. And I went with my husband, with Jamie, so that was fun, because I don't know if I wanted to be there alone. And it snowed. It was so beautiful. It was really beautiful. Yeah, I was like, what's the weather like? And they're like, well, it's a microclimate, so bring a jacket and shorts. And I was like, you guys, just fuck off. Give me an answer to the fucking question. I'm so jealous that you're doing that, though. Wow. It looks beautiful, that place. It really does look nice. Look, there'll be a full report. Okay, good. Can you give us an honest report and then do your GQ article on the side?

1:16:54That's right. Thank you, Pam, for joining us.

1:16:56Jason Stewart:That'll be a long lunch at Petey. He'll give you the whole rundown. I can finally have some spinach with salt on it at Bar Petey. Oh, my God. I'll be flying. All right. The 90s is out now. The book is out now. Yes. And I'll see you tonight at Dashwood. And thank you for the time. Thanks. Thank you guys. Pleasure. Thank you. It was our honor. Pleasure. Thank you. Thank you.