854. - Penn Badgley

11:49Penn Badgley:says rush limbaugh didn't they let didn't they let you know um okay we do have a guest today pen bagley is is joining us he's got a new book with his uh podcast co-host sophie and novitz called crush more essays on love loss and coming of age obviously you've seen him on stage and screen uh gossip girl you his band she had a band as well oh yeah john tucker must die which was a big deal because i think cartel was on the soundtrack of that that was a big thing for us whole brothers on that soundtrack let's let's tap in with the goat fellow podcaster and uh see what he's up to oh and she's mic'd up this episode of how long gone is brought to you by better help our old old homies are oh geez jason better helps uh 2026 state of stigma reports surveyed 2000 proud americans and revealed that 85 percent of americans believe getting support is wise yet 74 say society discourages people from doing so hell no that's bs that's absolute bs the gap between believing mental health support and actually seeking it seems like a problem to me and i i I think in our circles, Jason, everybody's encouraging everybody to get help in any way they can.

13:02Jason Stewart:Yeah, in any way you can. And nowadays, we don't have any friends that we can lean on or family. We don't want to talk to them. And that's where BetterHelp comes in, Chris. Over 30 ,000 therapists are able to chat with you about whatever is going on with your life, work stress, relationships, whatever it might be. and just talking to anyone about it will help open up those breakthroughs because you got to kind of get there yourself and a professional will help you get there much faster than one of your dumb family members. And this works, an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 stars for live sessions with BetterHelp based on over 1.7 million client reviews.

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14:01Penn Badgley:If it ain't broke, don't fix it. That sounds right until you actually do the math. I'm not great at math, Jason. For most businesses, shipping is that thing. What is it actually costing you? Because if nobody's questioning it, it's probably costing way more than it should. thank god ship stash on make switching easy and the savings are immediate yeah shipping is that

14:22Jason Stewart:bitch we gotta do it and everything from order management to inventory returns it's all in one place with one automated rate shopping so you can compare those rates across ups usps fedex all of the carriers saving you up to 90 off sometimes we connect with over 200 marketplaces online and the accounting and CRM tools you're looking for are already there. No rebuilding, no disruption. All that stuff is plug and play. Over 1 million businesses leveled up their shipping with ShipStation. If you are still, you know, shipping your stuff with multiple tools and carriers and making car runs all over town to drop this off here and all that stuff there, wouldn't it be amazing if there was just one thing that handled all of it?

15:09Jason Stewart:So the sooner you switch, the sooner you start saving money and time gets started with ship station today and get 60 days free at shipstation.com with code how long that is shipstation.com code how long shipstation.com

15:25Penn Badgley:code how long taxes and fees do apply oh baby it is summer jason we're peaking right now it's july 4th weekend it's hot as hell outside but things do feel easier the days are a little more relaxed and I'm sure you can agree, Jason. I find myself reaching for the same comfortable go-anywhere staples again and again and that's why we keep returning to the altar of Quince. They focus on well-made essentials that naturally become those everyday staples that you live in all season long, no matter what the season is.

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16:38Jason Stewart:So you are only paying for exceptional quality, not brand BS. So make your summer wardrobe easier. Go to quince.com slash how long for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada. That is quince.com slash how long for free shipping and 365 day returns. quince.com slash how long okay for listeners at home pen's gonna be whispering this entire episode because he is with child strapped to his chesticles here's what i can do i can stand up and i is is it this is live is it this feels live you guys are already going what's happening here it's not live we record the intro and that 15 minutes before the interview so you know we're kind of primed up and ready to go you're ready to go

17:30Penn Badgley:okay no that's good i have to say we've done 800 and whatever 40 episodes of the show and this is how long gone first I will say that you've broken a seal that I didn't think we would ever get to if I'm being honest

17:43Jason Stewart:we've had a lot of performative male behavior on the show but never somebody bring in their baby on the pod this is very

17:49Penn Badgley:like if you pull out a Dickens paperback and start reading I'm gonna get worried you can't do three things at once okay so this is the reality of twins I think twins plus how we have four kids we have four boys bro you got hella kids bro dude i know it's and you know it's wild i know a fair number of people with twins like you know like enough that i'm i'm still thinking to myself every day for these six weeks they're they're um six weeks and like a day right now and i'm just like how did you never tell us how did you never tell us like you know you know people talk about raising kids and and babies and stuff and it's like all the newborns it's you know tough tough whatever i'm like one one seems like a walk in the park you know you get the you get the one down there's the other whole other one and just there's a whole other one unless you

18:47Jason Stewart:choose to neglect one of course but that is frowned upon in polite society well it's kind of like no matter what like that's why he's on me right now let's well i think we know which i think

18:57Penn Badgley:we know which one's the rock star pretty early you know what i mean you want to coddle like jason is a twin my sister has twins i it's a it's a common it is something that at one point felt more rare but now it does i do feel like i see and hear about it more yeah yeah i can be your twin hero baby so if you have any cues just let me know this is yeah but this is big so i you have you have four kids and you still work which is i want to pat you on the back for that well i mean with four kids you have to i know that's right good point good point i just mean it seems like you're doing a lot you know on all fronts i mean that's definitely the way it feels uh sometimes i wonder am i doing in fact a lot why does it feel like it's so much but uh yeah okay well let's

19:45Jason Stewart:talk about um sleep score also because because you are with a child on there and you have a high quality mic it's creating an amsr sensation that i think our listeners are going to if this if this podcast costs money they would pay more yeah you should have subscribers well let's talk about your your sleep how many hours of sleep are we getting what what times of the day are we awoken and what do we do in those times so in these last six weeks in particular it has been all over the place like some nights it's it's zero and then you know you're trying to make up during the day and sometimes i gotta say the adrenaline you have from that makes the the next day easier it doesn't make

20:24Penn Badgley:life in general easier i get that i get that sensation when i'm jet lagged sometimes where there is something pumping that wasn't there before yeah um and by the way i i'm gonna try this as long as it goes and then i will be able to hand the baby off but i just figured give my wife a break because okay good lord um you're sweet for saying that but i mean it is i know

20:44Jason Stewart:what you mean that little boost that you get from being up all night but as somebody who does uh things where your face is on display not always best for the way you look in the in the face and eye region you know no no but thank god right now i'm promoting a book so it's you know there's a

21:01Penn Badgley:little bit of a break there well i mean a leeway in the way that i present no i should say we we do half of the time have a night nurse because what we have found with twins is like you actually just can't power through i mean you you need in some way a third adult you you just can't do it i remember the first night i was with the twins you know doing the whole bot this first time we've done bottles as well like because when you have one and uh mother is able you know just breastfeeding the whole time and that's its own you know she's already been through so much now we got two at a time right so you know i'm doing bottles all the time which is like this whole it's like a full-time job just washing and sterilizing but first night i was with them all night i was just like all right just make it to six make it to six make it to six of course what i was somehow not realizing is that at six then i have to be with our five-year-old you know all day because this this was just before school had started so the first three days i mean i literally didn't sleep and i was like i'm going to die like i like did it did it get psychedelic at some point were you seeing oh yeah well well one of the things it keeps me saying in those long night hours i just i do love to meditate i do pray and so like i was just kind of in this really no place i felt you were zen the f out

22:23Jason Stewart:these kids were god i need you more than ever tonight yes yeah what is your what is your

22:29Penn Badgley:meditation style and how long have you been doing it that's an interesting question it's definitely evolved i i my the way i meditate now is only ever with prayer or it's more active i don't just meditate to like to zone out and like try to get to this place of non-thought i also don't know that that's possible but so i'm a member of the baha 'i faith and i became a baha 'i just about 10 years ago so i i really what i'll do is i'll like read some of the baha 'i writings um originally written in Arabic and Persian by Baha 'u'llah, but now translated into English. And I'll just like, I'll kind of like take a paragraph of that and I will meditate on that.

23:08Penn Badgley:When you say meditate on it, are you repeating it over and over? Or are you just reading it and then digesting it sort of? You know, what's amazing is that it's always a little bit different. I'm not really, like sometimes I'll just, I'll be able to break it down word by word and just kind of almost like half memorize it, close my eyes. Okay. Here's an example. Here's just an example. Let's see if I can remember it right now on the spot.

23:30Jason Stewart:Manifest for me, daddy. Yeah, so I think the first of this book called The Hidden Words, it goes, O son of spirit, possess a pure, kindly, and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty, ancient, imperishable, and everlasting. So like, that's just an example. So what I might, and I've been meditating on that particular word probably for, you know, literally upwards of 10 years. sometimes i'll just be like oh son of spirit like what what is that

24:04Penn Badgley:you get three words in and you're like shit i gotta think about this a little bit oh son of spirits okay okay you're like is that me or is that you yeah right and then that's a pure kindly and radiant heart so sometimes i'm like okay i focus on pure kindly and radiant sometimes i'm just at the word possess and i'm like possess a heart does one so wait a second so of all the things that i meant to possess this is like first and foremost oh yeah because i you know i forgot one i forgot one of the i forgot the first line my first counsel is this so it's oh son of spirit my first counsel is this possess a pure kindly and radiant heart so the fact that it's like my first counsel possess i'm like you know so you just you just get a little insight My first counsel was a court-appointed lawyer to get out of a shoplifting charge.

24:55Jason Stewart:Do I have a spirit? Or do I possess it? Is that different than having? Because you think about a pure heart. And you know what Baha 'u'llah says about any word truly, but if it has this sort of sacred origin, any scriptures from any religion, of course it's true. But it has sort of infinite meaning. And so I really do feel like you can just spend as much time as you want on these words.

25:21Penn Badgley:Penn, how long have you been this zenned out? Because I feel like you are, considering what you're telling us now and that you have four children, you seem very calm and centered. And I imagine maybe that wasn't the case at some point.

25:35Jason Stewart:When was your heart not pure? Because you feel like you're a pure-hearted motherfucker if you ask me.

25:41Penn Badgley:I know your ass wasn't born with a pure heart. I know, I know. I don't seem to be at 427 this morning when my five-year-old woke me up. That was when the heart was really pure.

25:49Jason Stewart:I was behaving impure, one could say. Yeah. No lie. Right now, the six weeks and one day that I have had four boys with the addition of these twins. Because the oldest is 16. So he's kind of like on his, you know, he's in a more, I mean, he needs us more than ever, of course. And we recognize that. But there's, it's different, right? So the five-year-old is dependent in a completely different way. I will tell you every day with my five-year-old right now requires me to grow. And if I don't, it is bad news.

26:26Penn Badgley:You're eaten alive if you do not grow. Yeah, this is the nicest way any parent has ever put this. Look, it forces me to grow. And I'm looking at that as a positive. I'm looking at it as a positive.

26:35Jason Stewart:Your 16-year-old forces you to send him$100 every six hours on Apple Pay. And your five-year-old, you have to grow spiritually, mentally. From the inside and out. Sounds like you might have a teenager. No, no, no.

26:49Penn Badgley:We just still act like one. I'm just shitty. Yeah, exactly. He asked me for$100 every six hours. So a 16-year-old in your position, is this at a point where the 16-year-old thinks you're cool or do they think you are not cool? Yeah, that's an interesting one. So he's not my biological son and his dad is in the picture. I'm his stepdad. You're the dad who stepped up. Yeah. Well, to be fair, to his dad's credit, his dad is in his life. I mean, you know, there was a period of difficulty. That's cool, though, because now he's got two motherfuckers he can hit up for the hundred bucks. So he's in a good spot.

27:28Jason Stewart:He's got twins as well. And he's playing you guys. He's also got a grandmother.

27:34Penn Badgley:Grandmother loves opening the wallet. That's a tale as old as time. So he's 16. You guys live in New York. So I can imagine he's pretty advanced. Definitely the way city kids grow up, definitely, yeah. He's born and raised in Brooklyn. Okay, so what is he into, and does he think you are cool, and has he discovered maybe some of your past, let's say, on the World Wide Web? And how big are his pants? So he definitely thinks that I'm not cool. Proper parent-child relationship. That's how it should be, I think. I think that's a traditional how it should be. I agree. That's a sign that I'm probably doing some kind of job right.

28:11Penn Badgley:Yeah, I would agree. I would agree. he has his own agency i'll say to myself like wait do you actually think i'm really cool and look up to me i'm it's not clear right now you know so i mean you know the fact that i have this crazy thing of fame and celebrity and i know that that adds i can only imagine you know when his friends learn about who i am i'm i'm sure that's such a weird we've spoken about it a little bit but not since he's been, I mean, we've spoken a lot about it, but not since he's really been such a conscious person. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 16. So actually we're due for a... We're due for a birds and the bees about fame.

28:55Yeah, I really am curious. I really, like he's got, because his friends are all of the age where Gossip Girl and my show, you are both, if they want to watch him, it's a big thing. you know and and so i would imagine he's wrestling with something there he's he's gossip he's gossip

29:13Jason Stewart:curious is what you're saying like i know that a lot of your friends are probably watching a show that i was on i'm not gonna spoil it but um if you ever want to talk well are his does he have

29:23Penn Badgley:other i i imagine that he has some other friends from school whose parents are in a similar business or at least like a musician or whatever you know that that usually i feel like brooklyn private schools there's a certain kind of parent and it ain't an accountant no it's true and it's absolutely true we for that reason we did move out of the city for a year because we wanted him to have a very different high school experience but he kind of was like just this thing that's not working i like my npr friends dad yeah he's like fuck you dad and you're like did you just call me dad yeah

29:59Jason Stewart:um i wanted the um the bahai faith is that that's iranian in origin is that correct yeah i mean yes iranian in origin but of course it's global and celestial and all otherworldly that's a nice way to put a global and celestial yeah yeah i would say that it's it's yes have you have you adopted any other iranian cultural uh behaviors cuisines etc the the only thing i can claim to is just being being more familiar with iranian food than the typical white american you know you know things about yogurt that the average guy does yeah i'm a different kind of white boy i like my rice burnt on the bottom y 'all don't know you even know that i didn't you know i somehow of all cultures like yeah i don't know what i knew about iranian culture before this and now i simply know a lot more iranians and therefore i'm just aware of the history and the culture

30:55Penn Badgley:and okay jason and i both have weird early ties to iranian culture so we both have an understanding of it as well not not to the extent you do probably but no i mean i i because here's the thing even though it's iranian in origin the baha 'i faith i think it has become so so diverse in the way that it's it's expressed and understood um around the world that like i i i really only know like these super you know what i know i know the way iranians will kind of make fun of their own culture so i know like all i really know is the stereotypes just like it's like anything else so i really don't have this deep understanding of it you know about that and you also know that you

31:39Jason Stewart:are not allowed to say it but you're allowed to laugh to yourself when they do it well were you

31:45Penn Badgley:were you just in a place of like searching for something or did this come to you sort of on a silver platter like who put you on maybe a co-host of a podcast yeah well my co-hosts are bahis actually and but that's you know i met them long after i discovered the bahis so let's see i i definitely was in a period of search i was absolutely in a period of search um you know it really started when i was about 24 and i was in between seasons on gossip girl and i was uh You know, I was having that pretty universal experience for anybody who does experience fame and wealth. And at the same time, you know, they're not the same thing, but I was getting both.

32:27And that's right. I was I was having that universal discovery. Oh, this this isn't doing a damn thing to make me satisfied or happy or content.

32:37Penn Badgley:Sorry. So you're saying I'm hot, I'm rich, I'm young, I'm famous, and I'm still empty on the inside.

32:42Jason Stewart:Bottle service is free for me currently, and I'm still filling a hole in my heart.

32:48Penn Badgley:Yeah, yeah. I walked into Avenue with six dudes, and it was fine, but I need more. I need more. Yeah, no, it really was that. And, you know, initially what I was seeking, I mean, honestly, the closest, by the way, if anybody can hear these gurgles every now and then, it is my little infant on my chest. um if it's confusing it sounds like a i don't know what it would sound like but it's a i'll use ai to remove the gurgles don't worry okay yeah um i i was i was initially seeking out some way to i wouldn't have said god i wouldn't have said like i want to um even pray i don't think was a word i would have been comfortable with but what i was seeking was like spiritual truth which is to say just what what is the truth of what's going on here what are we doing here i mean we of course all ask that question see the thing is the thing is pen i don't ask that question actually and that might be my that's part of my problem and maybe part of my gift right also a gift yeah i was well i was raised in the south and it was very we went to church sunday you know it was a very big part of my life so when i rebelled it was like all this shit is stupid i don't want any part of this definitely i was raised very much in an in a not anti-religious but like a religious it was just my parents had been burned well my grandparents i think were burned by the catholic church in various ways and so my parents were that that first that first generation of like truly non-religious american you know yeah yeah and i just inherited that completely you know and never questioned it never in fact the word god i'm pretty sure made me if anybody took it seriously that made me uncomfortable um religion seemed very much like the i just sort of adopted the marxist view like

34:40Jason Stewart:it's it it must be the opiate of the masses these damn sheeple follow the money brother hashtag i mean i was i was thoughtful and sensitive and like the first time that i was opened up to anything past oh well you know what it was art art and music was like religion or spirituality for me the closest thing to it and i think for anybody who is anywhere from atheistic to agnostic that's true i think artistic expression is the space where you get that mysterious existential thing right um film can do that so beautifully like so beautifully okay so for me it was it was until I experienced, you know, until I ate mushrooms and I was like 17 years old.

35:26And it really, you know, I mean, Whoa, bro. Everybody can have fun. But I frankly was like, this is far too serious to be taken lightly. You know, that was the way I felt about it.

35:37Penn Badgley:So it broke you wide open. Yeah. And I would say it just began to crack me open. Okay, okay. And then, you know, music continued to be my lifeline to something spiritual. So the way that I thought about it somewhat rationally or logically was, okay, if there is a truth being revealed through the ingestion of naturally occurring elements, okay, so then I suppose what I'm seeking for must be this, is it a deeper relationship with the earth? Is any kind of spirit or God or whatever, is it the earth that I'm looking to get to here? who has the most authentic and true relationship with the earth and the answer there is generally indigenous cultures so then i start to seek out indigenous you know cultures peoples that that's an incredibly hard thing to do in an authentic way um you know if it's not naturally happening for you sure but i was trying nonetheless and then in colombia when i was staying with this tribe there and i'm not you know don't want to romanticize it it was not like um it wasn't the four seasons bogota well yeah no it was it was but it wasn't you know it wasn't extremely wasn't a hardship rustic thing either it was like it was on a reserve the most we had was like running water no electricity it was it was just enough of the rustic elemental experience that it that it gave everything more gravity the kogi that we were meeting didn't speak spanish except for a few of them so we had these spanish liaisons um and spanish speaking liaisons and uh and and the sense i got was that the kogi were just kind of like who who who are these white people from america what what what do we want we we want to have uh you know they consider themselves stewards of the earth and um wanted to impart lessons and i think they saw this ragtag of like you know kids and they were just like what what are we doing you know um they were of course immensely respectful and dignified and disciplined but i i guess what i'm trying to say is i don't want it to seem like i was befriending in an authentic way anyone who who can claim indigenous identity i didn't i didn't have access to that i didn't but i but i understood okay this is not like this is not happening in an authentic way it costs a lot of money to come here i have to travel surely if there's something true surely if there's something real it has to be universally accessible to all and so and it has to be free it has to it has to be truly like for everyone no matter who you are so something about the way that i was seeking it out just didn't wasn't ringing true but i was nonetheless starting to i was starting to pray at this point i'm probably 25 26 27 interestingly enough i had met a baha 'i down there in columbia this other young 24 year old white dude from new york city who i frankly because of that was like not interested in you not interested in this friendship i got this at home i don't need this right exactly but lo and behold it was it was exactly what i was looking for you know um these teachings that he would share with me very indirectly and slowly and subtly over time.

38:57It really was just, you know, we'd be meeting up at different protests or we'd be meeting up for different, you know, organizing events, just something. And what he seemed to, to name better than anyone else I'd be speaking with was how I could, how I needed a framework to link my own spiritual transformation to that of the transformation of society and how those two things are necessary for each other. And so, and it was more coherent than anything else I was aware of, wasn't aware that it was part of a religion. And if in fact, I had been, I would have been like, all right, peace. So you just thought this guy was like, wise beyond his years, basically.

39:38Exactly. Exactly. And that's partly true, but it also was that he was, you know, he was becoming a Baha 'i himself.

39:44Penn Badgley:So he was becoming, he wasn't raised this is he discovered it and then pass it on to you he was still pledging you were older than

39:51Jason Stewart:him and yet he was an elder to you in many ways the exact same age nonetheless a twin something to think about yeah yeah yeah uh but nonetheless yeah it was a profile and we're still good friends

40:05Penn Badgley:we're still very good friends okay this coinciding with like gossip girl being the biggest tv show in the world, you know, for a pretty good chunk. Yeah. Seems like those two things might be at odds with each other. Is that safe to say? Uh, well, definitely. I mean, I think. This summer, Prime Video takes you back before Legally Blonde, before law school and into the world of Elle Woods in high school. Set in 1995, this Gemini vegetarian knows exactly who she is until her family moves from bel-air to seattle packed with iconic fashion 90s nostalgia and a throwback soundtrack el proves one thing law school was hard high school was harder from the world of legally blonde watch l a new original series only on prime video watch now legally we can't say drinking storm makes you smarter and more focused but with zero sugar 200 milligrams of caffeine and immunity support.

41:02You're smarter and more focused for drinking storm. Storm, good energy in, good energy out.

41:07Penn Badgley:Energy for life. Pros trust the Home Depot for heavy duty storage solutions for any job site or garage. Right now, get up to 15 % off select storage and organization. Impact and water resistant totes and shelving built to hold up to 2 ,500 pounds. Storage systems have space for all your tools and protect them in the garage, on the job site, and everywhere in between. Save time and maximize efficiency with adjustable shelving customized to your business's needs. Shop and save on pro-grade storage at The Home Depot. How pros get more done. Well, the truth is I was never a crazy partier. I was not, I was always at most moderate.

41:46I think I would maybe spend, you know, I might be able to spend a night or a weekend or a couple weeks, like going hard alongside those who were going real hard you know and i would like kind of have enough social fun that i'd be like okay but it just it it i think i would always bottom out pretty hard you know the the so-called come down like not just but just but just from the experience i it always hit me real real real hard and that's sort of the space i found myself in after you know after after just like a season and a half of gossip girl and keep in mind i started working when i was i started working professionally when i was 12 years old in television and film so that's not even counting the years i spent doing just like community theater and and other stuff in seattle yeah so i moved to la and was working at 12 years old i was working full-time as number one on the call sheet of a of a show and working 12 hour 14 hour days at 15 for the first time so by the time i'm 20 on gossip girl i'd already been on like three failed series i'd done countless guest stars i've done a bunch of independent films the bloom is off the rose you're ready to hang your hat up yeah i mean i'd done a decade of like i'm a i'm i'm actually in a rare class of a working actor and it's this incredibly frustrating hustle and racket and i'm not at all creatively fulfilled i've not really had a teenage period to just because

43:16Penn Badgley:it's some shit where like you and your mom live in the Oaks or the Oakwood or whatever. And like, but we live very close to it. Yeah. And you get it done. And then you look up and you're like, shit, I'm 20. Yeah. And I, this is what I'm doing. I mean, there's no other, you know, you're deep in. Right. And those alongside me, you know, a lot of my friends by the end of this period, towards our twenties, we're really not doing well. Like some of them, in fact, those closest to me were really not doing well. You mean mentally, physically, or you mean career wise? but well all all yeah and and i just saw how this industry used up people real fast what do you think you had that these people didn't were you just a hard worker or do you think it's sort of just god's plan uh yeah i mean that's hard to name i because i don't even think it's in god's plan to um dare i say um for anybody to you know be miserable and fail i think it's i think i think um he's got the sauce bro that's all it is because well that sometimes that really is it's that simple it's like i i know what i'm doing and i'm good at it and the right things came my way and and i got it done i certainly was good enough at it and i mean you know the the the strange cruelty of like trying to become an actor is actually here's my whole outlook on it and it's not an encouraging one for anybody who wants to do this sorry um is that actually failure is the rule and success is the exception.

44:40It's an industry that attracts so many people and it rewards the tiniest, tiniest fraction of the few with success. And even within that success, like, look, I'm still grinding, trying to do the thing that I really want to do. You know, like that's, that's, that's the way I feel. And you have to check so many boxes that are so superficial in order to

45:06Penn Badgley:even succeed well i you've had a lot of of i mean you have a great head of hair and i think that has helped you are you kidding that is yeah without that yeah i've i've seen you have i was gonna ask because i've seen several haircuts throughout the years and i just i think they all work and i think

45:20Jason Stewart:but even with all these benefits and talent everything those who do end up succeeding the 0.000 percentage of it oftentimes a fluke luck just a random instance of yeah of faith i've heard Somebody say that luck is what happens when like opportunity meets preparation. I think that's, you know, it's very drill sergeant, uh, advice, but I agree with it. Yeah. Right. It's, and I think there's some truth to that, but it's only a, a, a fraction at best of the truth because in any business, but in this business, I mean, your success is, is based on, on, on pure superficiality. You know, great actors are great actors and I'm not putting myself in that class.

46:03Like great actors do do something that is incredible and powerful and undeniable. You have somebody like Philip Seymour Hoffman, who I actually think was very handsome and charismatic, but his talent, you know, was clearly what caused him to succeed. And yet, you know, you think about like, what, do we really think that Philip Seymour Hoffman is like one of very few who can produce that kind of gravitas? There's people all over the damn world who can do that. But it's still, you know, he still belongs to a certain look, a certain kind of gravitas that we like. It's very male. It's very like, you know, so there's all.

46:39So anyway, all I'm trying to say is this industry rewards an incredibly very few people. And, you know, I watched it eat up the friends I grew up alongside. So by the time I get to Gossip Girl and I'm 20 years old, I already felt like an exhausted veteran of the game. and alongside me everyone else felt pretty pretty fresh fresh-faced and like you know wide-eyed and i was like i am done i am so done you know but being on it being on a proper show

47:09Penn Badgley:like that that runs for a while it's kind of the most normal job you can have as an actor because it's like you sort of obviously you get time off but you kind of go clock in it's true you do your thing you clock out you it's not summer camp you don't have to go to new zealand and put on prosthetics. It's like a pretty normal day today. It is a pretty normal day today. And even though the hours can be quite long and it kind of takes over your life. And then the fame part also definitely takes over your life. It is within its own strange world. It can be a very ordinary feeling job, especially because crews, you know, being on a set with the crew, very working class, you know, like a lot of construction workers.

47:48So actually the irony of a set is that it can feel like a very grounded place to work. Yeah.

47:57Penn Badgley:No, I mean, it makes sense. You're seeing the same people every day. It's a pretty wide mix. I mean, you know, there's whatever, 15 or 20 actors, but then there's 100 regular people.

48:05Jason Stewart:Which is why I never leave the trailer because then you have to look at all those people.

48:09Penn Badgley:Jason does. Yeah, Jason gets really upset when he has to leave the trailer. It's a whole thing. You got to knock hard to get him out of there. You got to knock hard to get him out of there. Yeah, I guess I've always heard that from actors and like read about it over the years that like for a lot of people that's the goal because it's the most normal way to do it for a living you know yeah no definitely definitely well yeah i i bet you nobody nobody starts out thinking they want to be a series regular they start out wanting to i think everybody starts out wanting to do film oh totally totally so i mean maybe not less so now just because tv is sure it's through tv different but yeah i mean last few years it's different i know you're i think we're probably similar in age so i i can imagine that like that was the case for you it's like well i don't i want to be on the big screen yeah yeah i think what i what i what i discovered over time is that i had actually really never had the opportunity to to experiment creatively because i started professionally so young and what did you were you on were you on like soap operas and shit like what were you doing i had i had done a soap opera when i was 14 i did just you know kind of countless guest stars from like 12 to 14 then you get more like recurring roles and by the time i was 15 i was i was series regular on a on a warner brothers show and that continued i mean gossip girl was was warner brothers actually you my show you was still produced even though it was netflix um it was produced by by warner brothers and some of the same people warner brothers said come on in it's warm in here it's a company man pen i like that it's admirable it's old school i like no it's true i mean i really i really uh the the conclusion of my show you was the conclusion of a uh of uh let's see of an over of a 20 almost a 25 year period of working for the same the frog was paying the bills the frog was keeping the lights on yeah it's true and you know and so in that sense you know being on that kind of show a big show there is something that is extremely familiar about it to me and is like a normal job yeah totally yeah i mean anything becomes normal if you do it enough you know that's that's just what it is but you did you guys you was like what like five seasons or something uh five yeah and you did you call was it a situation where this was the plan we're gonna cut it off here or was it like it feels like the right time to stop um they'd always said something like three three to five seasons we we knew more than most shows that It's like if this thing jumps the shark, it's going to be real ugly.

50:38Penn Badgley:Most people can't take the foot off the gas if the money's still coming in and the overlords are saying the ratings are good. But I appreciate knowing when to say when. Yeah. I mean, it's just when you've got a leading man like Joe Goldberg, I think you have to know you can't just keep this thing running forever. So it had this built-in kind of limitation, which I was thankful for. And I think we all agreed it was definitely time to end it. Yeah, I think it's powerful to know. I think most people have a hard time bowing out no matter what the industry is once it's sort of come to a natural end.

51:11Penn Badgley:Yeah, that's very true.

51:12Jason Stewart:Well, now that you have a podcast, you have the book. Yeah, now that you're coming for our fucking money, we don't have any WB checks. So why don't you stay in your fucking lane?

51:22Penn Badgley:All right, big dog?

51:24Jason Stewart:Is that making you a little more selective about future roles now that you have the stability of a podcaster's life and author's life? Yes, the great income. The low paying stability is really doing a lot for me and my family. Well, when you don't have to split it with a bunch of people, it's actually pretty good. Yeah, well, kind of like dovetailing nicely with what got us on there, which was this sort of period of spiritual awakening that I had where I would eventually become a Baha 'i. And, you know, the truth is you would ask me about, did I feel like, um, you know, as the spiritual path was diametrically opposed to the professional path I was on.

52:13And, and the truth is I did. And actually, I think if I had not become a Baha 'i, the way I was viewing it all was becoming kind of dichotomous. So I was really seeing it like kind of more black and white, more binary, more competitive and oppositional. And I was really thinking, I can't continue doing this. So I did play music for a while and I started to kind of experiment in a way I felt like I never had been able to creatively.

52:39Penn Badgley:When you talk to your agents and your team, you're like, you know what, I'm going to make a record. Were they like, please don't do that? Or were they like, yeah, bro, do your thing. We've made enough money. agents will agents might be thinking to themselves oh my god this is the worst idea anyone's ever had but the way they'll go is they'll go okay okay you know that's okay you

53:01Jason Stewart:playing bass you playing keys or are we kind of the fruit man of this operation yeah um they yeah you know look they were they were supportive and um i i think after a show like gossip pro everyone expects somebody to step off the gas for a second and just sort of reorient and so i did that i i ended up becoming a baha 'i but the interesting thing about that is that it's the it i i credit it and it the framework that i would then adopt for being the thing that allowed me to see oh no i don't have to go to the mountaintop i can but i need to bring the mountaintop to my life you know every moment is the mountaintop and frankly when you're parenting you're just like that's that's its own mountaintop every moment like i said when when i say that i have to learn every day and grow right now with my five-year-old otherwise i lose it i mean i mean it it's it's it's real so you have to bring the top to you your it's a top from home lifestyle now yeah right and so so so my show you the beginning of a of a process that i'm now kind of entering another stage of which is you know it was enough in the milieu in the wheelhouse that i was known for and what I was familiar with, right?

54:12It was like, we all know the kind of, the joke and the through line that Joe Goldberg is a little bit like Dan Humphrey if he just got his own show and picked up a knife.

54:21Jason Stewart:This motherfucker is brooding as hell. He's hot. Let's get the shirt off every four episodes. We're good to go. Yeah, exactly. The knife is a big difference.

54:29Penn Badgley:I want to be clear. It's a huge difference. It changes the vibe in the room. No, it doesn't. I mean, you know, he kills, I don't forget how many. you really you you really be killing though yeah you really be killing and and so you know that that uh was kind for me creatively what it's been and professionally i think it's like all right this shares enough cultural dna or some would say quite a lot some would say less so of a show like with a show like gossip girl but then the but then the show is completely oriented oriented around my character and what, how he sees things and the voiceover. So it's, so it actually became a very, um, engaging, uh, and very technical role where I'm really able to do something very different and have a very different experience and, and flex a bit and, and, and learn and grow.

55:23And, and so, you know, but, but it was still very much like a tv show you know and it's never been my goal to be uh to just be in tv i think well i'm sorry to

55:34Penn Badgley:hear i'm sorry to hear they passed you up for the naked gun reboot because i think liam i think liam did a great job but i i think you could have stepped in yeah well talk to me in maybe 25 years they have the vision you know um so so now look i i don't even have enough perspective because the show came out only six months ago or something like that it's last season uh i'm i'm in a truly new stage oh bless you my little one is a coughing and sneezing here um i'm really in a new stage uh part of that you know the podcast kind of was happening almost like this this sort of side quest for the last several years that then when we had the opportunity to write a book i was even like oh man i that's that's not easy and that's gonna take a lot of time and i like how come dax shepherd doesn't have to write a book what the fuck is this and i really you know but but then in writing the book i actually i learned so much about what it is to craft a good story and um just about story structure even i mean it's all it's all you know essays of of my own coming of age and then my co-host's coming of age there's three of us we each wrote something like five or six essays and i you know for something that i did not see coming and something that i didn't even initially really want to do but i'm also very much a team player and we're democratic in the way we make our decisions and you know doing the book it was like okay all right all right and this will be a nice sort of crown to the podcast who knows how much longer we're going to do it like all right this is a nice interesting project we have this thing called pod crushed it turned into a book called crush more and you know that's cool that's

57:16Jason Stewart:a that's a cool little arc that's cool we're yeah we're cool we're good we're fine more more than most podcasters you get right right and i have to say though like what i did in writing this was kind of dig into you know the stuff you're asking me about coming of age growing up in hollywood and and particularly my teen years which were frankly very very dark they were my darkest years by far and away 12 to 20 was the hardest time of my life yeah that's partly because i think that's characteristic of that time and then partly because of where i was and and the people i was surrounded with like writing the book for me i think is probably a much deeper experience than any than it will be for anybody reading it because there's so much that i left out in order to tell something of a coherent, somewhat brief, you know, punchy story.

58:09But man, I had to more or less address and understand like things of my youth that led me to where I am now in order to like tell a cohesive and relevant story, you know what I mean? To meet the reader who presumably would already know who I am and be somewhat interested in stories about, you know, that, uh i have to understand the past and same goes for my co-hosts and you know so so so now i find myself in a place where the role that i might do next as an actor very very very hard to say like you know there's a few opportunities that have come along in order to sign on to another show i mean i know what a commitment that could be well especially if it works that's the problem i mean that is that is that is you're right when you guys when you guys did the book did you did

58:58Penn Badgley:Did the three of you just kind of go into your corners and do your thing and then send it to the editor? Yeah, we really didn't have anything to do with each other in the writing process for the most part.

59:08Jason Stewart:Because you guys famously don't get along in real life at all, right? I don't text them anyway, so it wasn't a big deal. You all have your separate buses on tour and things like that. Yeah, right. So we really were just kind of writing in our corners. And it's a surprisingly for that. It's really cohesive. It really, it really,

59:32Penn Badgley:considering that it's still kind of worked. Okay. Well,

59:35Jason Stewart:you, you were mentioning the ages of 12 to 20 ish as your darkest years of, of teen hood. And I think many people can agree with that. Yeah. Ourselves included probably that time you had left New York parents split up, left, left Washington state. Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry. Left Washington State, moved to LA. Yes. So those darkest times were in LA. So when you go back to Los Angeles, is it comfortable now? Are there ghosts in them hills? Yeah, yeah. No, but specifically because like, you know, sorry to keep referencing it, but it really is this, it has this fundamental effect on my life. So it's just relevant at all times.

1:00:19So, you know, becoming a Baha 'i has meant that now anywhere that I go, there may only be one or two Baha 'is or there might be one or 2 ,000, but it means that I truly have someone to connect with there. You know, there is this framework for community building that is part of what is so incredible and unique.

1:00:41Penn Badgley:It sounded like AA a little bit in some ways where like you can go anywhere and there's going to be a meeting. it's i would say in that respect it's it's it's it's they're very similar you know it's this because fundamentals to the a to a program is like and all of the anonymous um things the anonymous the anonymous family of brands yeah yeah but the the the 12 steps is uh is this spiritual component and i think even for an atheist who like chooses to substitute something else it's still you know I've heard some, but I've been a sort of like atheistic friend who's big into the steps. When she said, drunks stands for, no, God is an acronym for group of drunks.

1:01:29Penn Badgley:Damn, that's good. I've never heard that before. Right, yeah. And I actually, you know, I have profound faith and devotion to God. It didn't offend me in the least bit because what I hear is like, you're talking about human relationships. You're talking about camaraderie. You're talking about friendship and support. The invisible stuff in life, no matter how you choose to view it and call it, it's the invisible stuff that makes up a life. So this framework for deepening those bonds in a person's life, building community, starting to be able to read that invisible part of your life better, becoming a Baha 'i for me has enabled me to go to places like LA where, you know, it would be, I think, full of ghosts for me.

1:02:14I mean, some of my friends literally have died, you know, after the result of addiction.

1:02:18Jason Stewart:So, so it's quite literal, but it's not because I, I, I, the LA, the high community is actually really rad and really vibrant.

1:02:28Penn Badgley:But you're coming at it with different tools, basically. Like you're, you're coming at it ready to rock with a support system. So you don't have to go to that place. And I didn't necessarily expect that. I wasn't like, I am a behind now and now it will be different i just i had to move out there for the second season of my show and um i discovered that i was actually having this really incredible time okay so when you get to a new city like that

1:02:52Jason Stewart:and you you know you're trying to find your network of people that you can connect with do you just contact old friends is there a is there a raya for is there a bahia is there a seeking Baha 'is. You know, there's, I think there is technically still like leftover 80s. There is a number that people can call to just be like, hey, I'm looking for the Baha 'i community.

1:03:15Penn Badgley:Cool. I forget that number. It's like two, two, I don't know. That's really, that's actually really funny. And I think more. I love that. More things should have that. Just call the number. We'll set you up with somebody. It's not sex stuff. It's just normal.

1:03:29Jason Stewart:Or, you know, in a hottie fleiss kind of way, that's not bad either. Hey, I'm in town. Yeah, yeah. So I think what I, what tends to happen for me is that it's like, uh, somebody will know somebody and I'll just be able to be connected organically. If it's a matter of connecting to a Baha 'i community somewhere. In fact, the one time that it, that it was totally inorganic. And I was like, I'm just going to go on the website for the national spiritual assembly of the Baha 'is of this country. And just literally email them. I was in the Philippines in Manila on a bookstore.

1:03:59Penn Badgley:You're like, what's up? It's Penn. I'm here in Manila for a couple of days. you guys got anybody to send over the idea that i was emailing because i could also like the yeah the person i emailed like it was not i think somebody who should just be fielding random emails sure they're like nobody sent an email to this address i'm the ceo down here like

1:04:21Jason Stewart:what is this like some famous guy's looking for an old lady to have him over for dinner i don't know what's going on it's amazing because i was in manila and i was on tour and you know everybody from the network was saying like it's not safe enough for you to just go out like you need a

1:04:36Penn Badgley:security guard at all times are you popping there or is it just dangerous it well i suppose it's a mixture of both all things sure sure sure sure but so i email the baha 'is there and then like you know this group of filipino people show up at my hotel like let's go to a volcano and we like you know just go and and we two days together i didn't know these people at all but we just we had this kind of this commonality you know that was my that was the first time in my life that i had that i experienced what people can call like um well i don't know what to call it i suppose it's community but it's a different let's call it true faith not to quote new order well because it was like this is based on on nothing tangible this is based on nothing but it was really really lovely it was really lovely yeah because if i did that it'd be somebody from you know that knows me from Instagram or whatever and we have a similar interest in whatever it might be you know what I mean or they listen to this show but I feel like this is this brings you a uh a real uh wide

1:05:38Jason Stewart:swath of folks with a similar I bond with people basically it begins and ends with cool restaurants you can visit in my city and you're like so I know that mountains are the source of all human life and existence shall we visit a grand volcano and bask in its glory also if if the baha 'i faith is it is mountain oriented right mountain is the that's like the heart of the world kind of oh well i mean no no but i would say i would say if anything if anything baha 'is and i think many people of spiritual traditions have felt this and said this and see this too if anything i would just say like all of physical reality is just a metaphor for spiritual reality actually not the other way around which is to say that consciousness is first and matter is second and you know the leading leading uh little book for you that's uh pure science based by donald hoffman it's called the case against reality um brilliant book about how the leading sort of frontiers of physics are it's leading those who are on the absolute cutting edge to cast aside this assumption that consciousness comes from matter.

1:06:53You know, that consciousness arises from matter, that it must be some sort of process of computation ultimately. Blah, blah, blah. Anyway, I was a bit...

1:07:00Penn Badgley:When you, when you, all right, hold on. When you met your wife, were you already into this shit and she had to get on board or did you guys kind of get into it together? A little bit of both. Okay, sure. She was curious and you sort of led her to water? We met at the same time that I was seeking. Okay, so she was like, I like this guy. He's into this. All right, let's just ride the wave. We would meditate together. We had both learned the same kind of meditation practice. Earlier you asked me, I've tried a lot of different kinds of meditation and we both happened to share that at that time we both would eventually share our last drink together even though i don't think we either one of us knew it would be the last drink yeah yeah yeah um you know so we so we were both spiritually seeking she was not and is not baha 'i but she loves a lot of the she you know she loves everything about it um and she likes to surround

1:07:54Jason Stewart:herself with baha 'is she's like it's better that you're into this than like ufc and stuff you know yeah i guess this is better than cocaine and football so let's rock well let let i want to i want to talk a little bit about um you mentioned finding the spirituality going into music at an early age but were you listening to you know quote-unquote spiritual music or were you finding the spirituality in you know the new interpol ep well well no i mean i it wouldn't have been Interpol for me but I totally respect everybody who is finding it in that the main music absolutely was and is spiritual like that's what it is I mean again what is it it's it's calling out of the invisible something that can make you know a person cry like it's it's deeply spiritual yeah um and for me you know I always did tend towards rap and and jazz and and R &B like soul music and um you know not for nothing that is probably of all the american music i suppose there's country but country never really did anything for me speak for yourself brother sure and that's fair that's fine but but it's you know country and soul are the two genres that are the most overtly connected to spirituality you know it's through to even religion i would say you know they're both like country country singers and a soul singer will both sing about god yeah

1:09:17Penn Badgley:that's true. No, you're right. That's true. And for whatever reason, country just really didn't do it for me, but soul, soul did. And, and gospel even more so as I would get older, even, even, you know, I would say saying the word God and taking it seriously would have made me uncomfortable, but listening to someone sing about it did not make me uncomfortable. That's actually, that's pretty fair, I think. But at 15, were you like listening to third eye blind or were you into some, you know, he was listening to his D 'Angelo. D 'Angelo. Yeah. D 'Angelo was always my number one from like what about what about maxwell the unplugged album is a classic for me you know he is great and listen shout out to maxwell i actually we were we were like hanging in the same circle for a bit he was a friend of a friend and like i do really love and respect him d 'angelo just hits different for me yeah d 'angelo is a superstar and he also had problems you know what i mean in a way that was like made it all seem heightened he also had cum gutters so you know they kind of yeah he looked amazing yeah i mean i body body wise he's the goal as well as as uh singing wise well you know he would even say in his in interviews before uh the period of downfall or a period of struggle that he had you know he's he would say like i just want to get fat so people can listen to my music because his music is and you know lo and behold he did he did no i mean yeah he he did what he said i mean i'm reading the evan dando memoir right now and he has a similar problem where it's like the all they wanted me to do was be like a pinup and and it it's felt like it was a trap you know which is a look there's worse traps to be caught in for for my money but i understand everybody's struggle is different you know it is yeah quest love is like

1:10:55Jason Stewart:that sounds good to me can i try that for a minute well it's funny that you say quest love because quest love was the co-pilot for d 'angelo yeah yeah yeah yeah i actually think you know i don't know i do know amir kleslav a bit he you know i can consider him a friend um he also knows everybody uh literally like he's one of the most connected people and busy people i no i would actually he'd be saying yes he'd be saying yes he i would say he's the most connected and busy

1:11:23Penn Badgley:person i've ever met in my life well we just we just met so it's you know give it some time um you know the the the little the little bit of you know my own experience with um being known for the shape and condition of your body, which you're not responsible for. He's like, Hey, you're responsible for it a little bit. You could be eating Domino's three meals a day. That part's true. You know, you're right. You're right. But I know what you mean though. I know what you mean. Something that you, that you don't actually have anything to do with. And therefore I do think it can be an incredibly, I think it can develop this profound kind of secret insecurity personally.

1:12:07Penn Badgley:that's my experience with it like you're saying i take my shirt off and everybody loves it but what about the inside yeah i mean for me it's never been the shirt off it's been more the face but yeah you're like bro you're looking at it shirt off it's fine potato potato same same feeling same effect no one was paying me extra to take the shirt off that's kind of you know that's kind of part of the deal i've never i've never been that guy that's actually that's so funny that's

1:12:28Jason Stewart:really we're more of a oh not as bad as i thought i was gonna be yeah yeah exactly okay okay well Well, now I'm glad I know that you're what waters you're swimming in musically so I can add a song at the end of the set. We do a different song for the outro of every episode. So I'll swim in those Erykah Badu kind of J. Dilla. It'll be a J. Dilla deep cut for you, Penn.

1:12:51Penn Badgley:Don't worry. Your little donut's ass. Thank you for joining us, Penn. The book is out now or is it out soon? I mean, probably by the time this comes out. This comes out tomorrow. We work fast. Oh, all right. So it's out October 14th. Okay, soon. October 14th. Week from today. And one thing I will say, you know, just shameless shill, the audiobook. The audiobook is a special thing because it's all three of us doing our thing. And, you know, if you like this voice, you can get more of it.

1:13:20Jason Stewart:Yeah, I was actually going to, because I was listening to the most recent episode of your podcast, and at the very end, there's like a little five-minute teaser where you're reading an excerpt. Yeah, there's a little clip. And having you read it as somebody who has, you know, decades of oration and, you know, hits diff, the character of you is a real thing. And the way that you narrate and read things, you know, you could read me my fucking tax return and people are still going to listen to that shit. You know what I mean? That's a power. And I like, I like that you are also narrating your own inner thoughts as well.

1:13:57Jason Stewart:And, you know, commenting on yourself in a meta way. Yeah. Well, you know what I realized for a few of the essays, I felt like I was doing a one-man show. When I was doing the audiobook itself, I actually had to find myself, first of all, I was like, oh my God, the way that I write is ridiculous. Because it's just sometimes so layered. And so, you know, that's kind of what the game of a celebrity written book is. You have to play with it a bit. It's like this self-referential thing. So I'm playing with that and that humor and that kind of chaotic irreverence. How much we throw all the pen at it and then we'll cut back to where it's good because there's such a thing as too many parentheses.

1:14:33Penn Badgley:Yeah. There's something that happens when I hang out with people that are, I guess, quote unquote famous. And the good ones are very aware of it and let you know that they know that you're aware of it. There's no pretense. There's no like, I'm not going to pretend like you don't know what happens to me because it's in the news. And I think that is, that is the best quality that one can possess if they become successful in that way for me, because it's like a level of respect you're giving your friend. Totally. No, I, I, yeah, I agree with that. And so, you know, me writing my own essays here in this book and then narrating them, it's like, um, I really did find, I was like, okay, I've done something here where I need, it requires almost a level of performance that is just a degree beyond an audio book.

1:15:21And it, and it felt good if I've, you know. It's like, oh, this is something that I can really put out into the world and feel good about.

1:15:28Penn Badgley:Yeah, it would have been funny if you got somebody else to do it, but probably not as good for sales. You know what I mean? Like Richard E. Grant was unavailable, but you had to step in.

1:15:36Jason Stewart:I think a degree beyond audiobook is a perfect way to put it because most people are like, I'm going to read an audiobook into a microphone for probably the first time in my life. It's going to be a little bit of a struggle. It's not what I do. And you're like, bro, I've been doing this since before I hit puberty. I'm not going to be a dick about it and be a showboat about it, but I'm going to let you know that this is what I do. It's kind of what I do. This is kind of what I do. And that's the way it should be. We all need to, in the podcast space, we all need to fight for our own unique attributes to keep us apart from one another.

1:16:13You know what we don't need? It's another podcast. Oh, wow.

1:16:17Jason Stewart:What a great note, Jen, Don. We'll quit ours if you quit yours, Ben. We made a blood pact. we had a blood pen you're like actually

1:16:25Penn Badgley:thanks pen we appreciate it

1:16:27Jason Stewart:well thank you pen we appreciate you taking the time and congrats on all the success with the book as well as your new twins good luck I appreciate it alright peace take care

1:16:53Thank you.