872. - W. David Marx

9:58Chris Black:Yeah, it was delicious. I really liked it.

10:00Jason Stewart:It looks like a great little plate. And that monkfish, the mouthfeel, right?

10:05Chris Black:The key word there is lil. And that's my, you know what I mean? But I mean, whatever. I could have ordered two if I wanted to, you know?

10:13Jason Stewart:You said, where are the rest of this monk?

10:15Chris Black:But yeah, everybody else, it was me, Shad, Liam, Claire, Ed, and they all got these big boy adult dishes. And then I felt like I just had to get more side salad.

10:26Jason Stewart:I would argue that this is maybe the most adult dish on there. That's rare for me. I mean, I'm not going kids meal mode, but sometimes I... We were thinking of you. I had a little talk over at your San Vicente bungalows last night. Shout out to Ricky for hooking it up. but Patrick Sandberg, how long gone friend, and I had a conversation discussing the LA Renaissance man on a rainy Monday night. But at the San Vicente bungalows, we all know that that's the day of the week that Chris Black magically likes to, oops, and let's just go on a Monday. Oh, you guys have free ice cream Sundays on Monday?

11:05Jason Stewart:That's such a weird coinkydink that we are on that same night that that happens.

11:09Chris Black:You're saying I get to build my own? can I get some extra Heath bar

11:13Jason Stewart:but I was dining with Ryland and he said you know when Chris comes to town he's got his SVV and you guys would have dinner often and he said you know coincidentally just by the luck of the random totally random draw the one night a week where they offer free ice cream sundae platter build your own wheel was the time that you guys ended up there and the you know we're discussing how that's such an old Chris and how we're proud of you that you don't sprinkle the Heath Bar crunch on top of that soft serve.

11:46Chris Black:It takes everything I had, everything I have, especially in San Vicente Munglo's, the desserts do shine, I have to say. And the ice cream thing is just more fun than anything else. Obviously, I don't like sharing. So there's some issues there. But I'm glad that you, how did it go? Was it a good turnout, even though it was raining?

12:03Jason Stewart:Yeah, even though it was raining, it was a good turnout. It was great. They had some free wine. We had some little pigs in a blanket, little mini grilled cheeses. And then we had a nice big dinner afterwards with some friends, Yossi Salik, podcaster, friend of the show. Who else was there? Sky was there. Charlie was there for a random other dinner. She popped in for a little bit. Greg K. And there was a guy who's cat-sized creative director. I forgot his name, but he was a fun gay guy.

12:33Chris Black:All right. This is starting to sound like.

12:35Jason Stewart:Nikki Takesh. She was all there.

12:38Chris Black:You're starting to sound like whack-a-mole. I love that. That sounds great.

12:42Jason Stewart:It was a power gay whack-a-mole.

12:44Chris Black:That sounds, I mean, that's kind of the dream situation for what you're describing. So I'm glad that it -

12:49Jason Stewart:For you, as a pass around party twunk, this was prime real estate for a little bossy bottom like yourself, wasn't it?

12:59Chris Black:Prime, prime real estate. I'm in this, I'm staying at this hotel called the Zetter that I've never stayed at before in Clerkenwell. Zetter? Z-E-T-T-E-R. And I didn't really look into it that hard. And it's one of my favorite hotel rooms I've ever stayed in, maybe. I'm sitting at the dining table. That is, it's just, it really feels like you're in somebody's house, which I think is what every hotel tries to pull off, but rarely does. And I'm just, I'm happier than a pig and shit. The floors are heated. You got the bathtub. You got everything. It's got everything I need. You know, it doesn't have a restaurant, so there's no food smells.

13:33Chris Black:It's perfect. Ooh, huge for you. here's the mini bar anything in there yeah that's there's there's yeah if you want to have a gin martini there's stuff in there but you know if you want some crisps or some peanuts they got you but no extra shit yeah you know it's not it's not chateau marmont with the milk duds i'll tell you that no no milk duds over here yeah probably call something different when i was when i was at um

13:53Jason Stewart:at the nine orchard and we have our guest here w david marks but he's on mute because he's a good guy because we're doing he knows what he's doing he's got a he's a pro he's a motherfucking pro but I was talking to Larry Maguire proprietor of the property and I was telling the story about when we had the hug and he I thought he was going in for the hug but it was actually just him moving around and I hugged him and he did the I guess we're hugging now kind of thing and he sent me a text saying like don't worry bro I like the hug it was cool but normally when I stay at that hotel I stay on the seventh floor and they have a terrace with like an outdoor area, which is my smoke injection.

14:34Jason Stewart:And this time I was on 12U and I was looking, I was like, damn, this room's nice. And you were in it. We podcasted it. Great room. I went on the website to look. That is the penthouse. That is the biggest, most grand room in the whole hotel with my dumb ass in there. But he was saying on the seventh floor outdoor terrace, he's like, what do you think about putting a little cold plunge sauna up out on that balcony? And I was like, bro, you are bringing a little touch of Austin to Dime Square in the perfect amount. They fucking need it. They need it. We're not going to do any. I'm not going to put in a home state taco place.

15:09Jason Stewart:I'm not going to do a queso fundito right wing pop up stand. I'm just going to keep everything as it is, but add a cold plunge in a sauna. That's exactly all I need.

15:19Chris Black:No, that's a really good idea. All right. David's here. Let's talk to him. His new book. I mean, he's authored several books, but his new one, Blank Space, A Culture History. Taylor Swift, I think, right? Of the 21st century is out today, actually. I think we're talking to him on pub day. And he's, as a resident of the motherland, Japan, but he's in America just to talk to us, which is really nice for him to take the flight, even though we're doing this remotely. So let's give -

15:45Jason Stewart:Just send us the invoice on that one.

15:47Chris Black:Yeah, no problem. Let's give David a call. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by our dear friends at BetterHelp. we are back with better help jason sometimes it can feel like everyone else has it all together in their love lives you know i'm talking about whether married dating or single the truth is most of us are still figuring it out and finding our way and no matter where you are in your romantic journey therapy can help you find your way help you determine what you want what feels heavy and how you can take some pressure off of yourself uh february i mean we're in the heat of it jason it's full of flowers candy stuffed animals and of course lots of talk about relationships and dating and no matter where you are, whether you're married or dating or single or just focusing on you, you're right on time.

16:31Chris Black:Therapy can help you find your way and see more clearly where you want to be.

16:35Jason Stewart:For whatever relationship you're in, however you're looking for love or not looking for love, however asexual you are, you still need to talk to somebody about the world and what's going on. That's why I love therapy and that's why we love BetterHelp. They have over 30 ,000 therapists, the world's largest online platform, served over 6 million people globally. It's very highly rated. If you don't like your therapist, easily switch it up. It's all remote. It's super easy to use. It's how we all do therapy now. Sign up and get 10 % off at BetterHelp.com slash HowLong. That is Better, H-E-L-P, as in Patrick Redden Keefe, dot com slash HowLong.

17:16Chris Black:This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Superpower. Superpower. Jason, recently I went to see the old doctor, and I left the medical facility in Beverly Hills, and I felt like I didn't get any good info. It was sort of like, you're fine. Drink more water.

17:35Jason Stewart:I'm going to try this and let me know in three months. And I said, that doesn't seem very efficient, doctor.

17:40Chris Black:Am I even going to be alive in three months? Because I need real data. I want a game plan. I don't need a pat on the back. I get that all the time in my personal life. But Superpower, on the other hand, is giving you the shit you need, bro. Superpower sends a licensed professional to your house, or you can visit a nearby lab if you're feeling crazy. It's a simple blood draw with over 100 biomarkers, which is way more than what you usually get, and it unlocks a real understanding of your body as you head into the Q2 of this year. The app includes detailed information on your heart, liver, thyroid, hormones, metabolism, vitamin and mineral levels, and even environmental toxins.

18:14Chris Black:Uh-oh. So from disease prevention to treating that annoying brain fog or simply optimizing your gym game, let's fucking go. Superpower is the most comprehensive and advanced system on the market.

18:24Jason Stewart:Yeah. Also, if you know yourself, you know your body, and you just simply want to have one of those cool like what's my biological age, and you can kind of compare yours with other people and kind of rub it into your friends and family that even though you may be older than them, you will actually outlive them because of your biological age. because you've been using your nutritional guide and your behavioral adjustments that our friends at superpower have told you to do do this don't do that eat that don't eat that and next thing you know your bio age you're entering brian johnson territory even though you're what 60 70 i'm 26 so it's really working it's really working for me superpower used to cost 499 but right now it is 199 for the full experience more affordable than anything else out there on the market some of these places are doing$500 ,000 for something similar or even worse.

19:16Chris Black:Hell no.

19:16Jason Stewart:So know your numbers this year with Superpower.

19:18Chris Black:Know yourself, know your worth, Jason. Make this the year you stop guessing about your health with Superpower. Not only did Superpower reduce their price to just$199, but for a limited time, our listeners at HowLongGone get an additional$20 off with code HOWLONG. Head to superpower.com and use code HOWLONG at checkout for$20 off your membership. After you sign up, they'll ask how you heard about them and make sure you mention this podcast. to support the show. All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Cheers. We're up early. We got workouts. We're traveling. We're tracking our sleep score.

19:50Chris Black:But after the age of 30, which unfortunately we are, even responsibly drinking a little booze will make you feel less than 100 % the next day. And look, there are obviously more negative effects from alcohol than just dehydration. Otherwise, how could alcohol be hard on your brain and liver? It has a depressant effect on specific receptors in your brain, and it's toxic to your liver. That's bad, Jason. What can we do? What do you think? Is there a fix for this? Is there a way to sort of hack this?

20:18Jason Stewart:That is bad, Chris. There is a good one. I like to drink. I like to put them down a little bit. Certain alcohols give me certain feelings and headaches and bad feelings. When I drink wine, I'll get a little, I won't be feeling so good the next day compared to something else. And that's where I like to grab a little Cheers. They appeared over on Shark Tank.

20:38Chris Black:Let's go.

20:38Jason Stewart:And now Cheers is sold in over 30 ,000 stores, Walgreens, CBS, 7-Eleven, all that stuff. Served over 50 million doses. So that's why we reach for Cheers, Chris. You're going to feel at least 50 % better the next day or your money back. Basically, two drinks feels like one the next morning. All you do is take three capsules after your last drink or before bed. I've taken it. Start your day and your morning better with Cheers. a limited time our listeners get 20 off their entire order by using promo code howlongatcheershealth.com just head to cheershealth.com and use promo code howlong for 20 off after your purchase they will ask you where you heard about them please support our show and let them know we sent you

21:30W. David Marx:i had to bring a podcast mike to the united states for this okay look to be fair i don't want to i

21:36Chris Black:want to look jason takes this seriously but i would say that might be overkill but we appreciate it you got to sound good but you you own this you've used this before you you you have a wind

21:46W. David Marx:screen for christ's sake yeah i have a windscreen i had to like jerry rig it to work because it uh

21:51Jason Stewart:but it's like a it's like a music windscreen well it's because it's because you care and you do a lot of interviews about all of your books that you write so you want to sound good what that mic was

22:01Chris Black:what 100 bucks 200 bucks it's not like hold on hold on hold on he said for singing are you doing a david burman cover album i don't know about or what's going on i i i once made music back in the day hold on one goddamn second i didn't know that what what kind of is this skateboard w we have on

22:17Jason Stewart:the call today but also they don't make podcast windscreens just yet i think it's just like

22:22Chris Black:that's that's true that's true yeah what do you what do you uh what is your weapon of choice if

22:28W. David Marx:you go into the guitar center i mean look i in in high school i played in bands like i did alterna pop uh okay and then i got really sick of that and started getting back into piano and i did weird digital plus 60s songwriter kind of stuff in the early 2000s it went it went nowhere it was like music about music and i had no audience sure sure sure i know the style that you speak

22:52Jason Stewart:of i know you said alterna pop yeah some old what is your brand of alterna pop just to give us some

22:58W. David Marx:bearings it was just like all all that mid 90s like we we loved i don't know rem and wheatus don't say no wheatus was that's much later i mean it but but like that's that's like the end point of alterna pop that's where they start adding dj scratches and the whole thing went to hell slow down now slow down don't come from dj homicide i forgot about dj scratch those

23:21Chris Black:are coming back now that trip hop is returning to the zeitgeist i'm hearing an errant scratch from time to time and i gotta tell you i don't like it either scratching really was in and it

23:31W. David Marx:was out you can you can date some a lot of music by how much how much scratching there was jason

23:36Chris Black:have you ever have you ever been asked to come down to the studio and lay some scratches on

23:40Jason Stewart:anything uh it's very possible there was a time when i was flirting with the idea of being in a portis head style band and i wanted hold on hold on this is hold on we talk to each other a lot and this is the first time i've heard of this this was i was still living in orange county it was it was early days but the problem was it was like me and this dude the stoner dude would play bass and then there was like these two asian dudes and they were better at scratching than i was just because of you know the genetic cards that were dealt to me so i was on i was playing kind of like Godspeed you black emperor stoner guitar lines with like a lot of reverb and they were getting there.

24:22W. David Marx:So they were turntabless is what you're saying?

24:24Jason Stewart:They were turntabless. The amount of

24:26Chris Black:times Jason's eaten sushi with turntabless. I can't, I can't count on, I can't count on two hands and two feet. So I think to answer your question, because I'm so surrounded by so many

24:37Jason Stewart:turntabless, I never got the call to come into the studio with, uh, you know, shifty shell shock,

24:44Chris Black:may he rest in peace r.i.p to the goat shifty uh r.i.p all right so david you're you're in you're in new york and is this for are you just there are you here for launch week or you do you

24:56Jason Stewart:have other plans that you're trying to he was sick of podcasting at 4 a.m so he popped over here for

25:01Chris Black:a week huh we've tried to do this for like two years and you're like you know what bro let's just do this shit when i'm in new york like it's all good we'll just wait till i'm over there so it's

25:09W. David Marx:easier it's working i'm honored that you waited so long to have me but uh no i'm in new york to launch. This is my first time and I

25:16Jason Stewart:waited.

25:17W. David Marx:I'm here to launch the book. You've got to be on the ground. It's kind of a rule of life. And so I wasn't here for the last one and I had to be here. I'm going to Boston tomorrow, but that's basically it. Just New York and Boston.

25:31Chris Black:Sorry about that. Well, I'm sure you have a reason to go to Boston. Are you visiting your alma mater in Cambridge? In Cambridge, yeah. Got it.

25:37W. David Marx:The Cambridge something bookstore. but yeah and my host for that event is my former college roommate so yeah that one's more like an alumni kind of feeling but yeah New York Homecoming

25:52Chris Black:Do you think these cheap motherfuckers are going to pony up and buy a few books or do you think do you think Boston is going to show up and show out to support one of their own Not like New York Well to be fair the subjects that you talk about are more New York than Boston I would say.

26:08W. David Marx:They're more New York than anywhere. I mean, the craziest thing is -

26:10Chris Black:We got fucking culture there, man. We got culture. I did 300 pages on Dunkin' and they didn't even respond to that. I don't know what I'm supposed to do. There is a Dunkin' Donuts reference.

26:17W. David Marx:There is a Dunkin' Donuts reference that brings New York and Boston together, which is the Dunkin' Donuts commercial with Ben Affleck and Ice Spice. That's a real healing moment for the East Coast. Hold on, hold on, hold on. Can I ask you a question real quick?

26:29Chris Black:Do you think they were ever in the same room?

26:32W. David Marx:No, they were absolutely not. Okay, okay. That's the best part about the commercial is that they weren't.

26:36Jason Stewart:You think Affleck hit? You think Affleck hit though? Just for the story? I mean, you don't have to answer that, of course, but what do you think about the new I Spice song slash video, Big Guy, from the forthcoming SpongeBob movie soundtrack?

26:52W. David Marx:Is this Mad Libs or this is a real thing?

26:55Jason Stewart:This is real.

26:55W. David Marx:This is real. I haven't seen it.

26:56Jason Stewart:It's going viral on my corner of Twitter where she wrote a song called Big Guy and the lyrics just say, big guy good pants or something like that it's like five words and it's repeated like a mantra it makes no sense but it's obviously stop playing with them riot is on the beat and it's like a real kind of be more like a fun be more kind of beat and it's like an earworm where you're like this is this is music for like one year olds but i can't stop listening to it kind of thing is this going

27:26W. David Marx:to be the the like drill crossover moment the spongebob feel old yet chief i mean i think

27:32Chris Black:spongebob is an urban film technically based on based on the the way based on pajama pants only well i mean spongebob feels i mean i feel like there's a spongebob supreme collaboration i'm sure like i feel like all that stuff has happened and it's somehow spongebob square pants is an urban film no but like spongebob square pants like nascar jacket like you could see dro in that you could you know that's not crazy that's like real this is stuff that definitely exists no i mean i

27:59Jason Stewart:They did email Ice Spice and not Michelle Branch to do this. That's a great point.

28:06Chris Black:When you put it that way, when you put it that way, what is your relationship to Boston as a short-term resident? I assume you only did four years because you're such a smart guy. You didn't have to do five, did you?

28:16W. David Marx:No. Look, I'm from Pensacola, Florida, and so Boston felt like moving to the big city. I mean, it is.

28:23Chris Black:I mean, compared to Pensacola, I didn't realize you were a Florida guy. That's great. Yeah.

28:26W. David Marx:I was born in Oklahoma, so it was really even moving on up to get to Pensacola. And I was in Oxford, Mississippi before that. But yeah, I mean, so they had a subway, right? I mean, it had a metro train you could be on. The T, as it's referred. So it's like I kind of, you know, I progressed. It's like I went to Boston, then I was in New York, and I was in Tokyo. So it was kind of moving up, like, you know, yellow belt, green belt, or whatever.

28:51Jason Stewart:Tokyo, you think you're better than me? What era of Boston?

28:56Chris Black:because there was a legendary Boston nightlife era sort of anchored, like sort of electro clash. You know what I mean? Like Gibby from Makeout Club had a party there. Jason, you know what I'm talking about.

29:08Jason Stewart:I know a little bit about it, but it seems like you might know a little bit more than I did.

29:11Chris Black:I can't remember what the part. Making time was Philadelphia, right?

29:14Jason Stewart:Yeah. No, there was something in Boston I totally forgot. Lil Intranet may have been involved.

29:20Chris Black:I think it was before his time. Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Or their time. I don't want to offend.

29:25W. David Marx:This is all after me. I would go to shows in the Middle East. Okay, okay, okay. I would go see the Promise Ring in the Middle East. And that's like the...

29:32Jason Stewart:I mean, look, that's much better than what I'm talking about, you know. Okay, let's talk about how cute you were dressing at the Promise Ring show in college. You know his ass had a little... Because right now you're already dressing like a little cutie, so I can only imagine when you were fucking 19. JC, you know he had a little baby tee with a... It was a tight tee, yeah. Button on the t-shirt.

29:51Chris Black:You know button on the t-shirt?

29:53Jason Stewart:obviously there was a strap across the chest but was it diagonal straight horizontal what was going

30:00W. David Marx:on with your strap situation uh i was probably wearing like japanese street wear but it was it was definitely a tighter fit you had the babes does on at promise ring there were no babes does yet this is pre-bapes so this was just some you idiot it was pre-bapesta come on jason uh look i'm wearing like a buffalo daughter t-shirt like i was just into obscure japanese bands so you're

30:21Jason Stewart:like i'm the only they don't know i'm the only guy at the promise ring show wearing capital denim with the visvim on and they're like we all see your gay ass with the capital denim yeah and like

30:32Chris Black:adidas superstars or whatever yeah but like that was that was how we lived then so you were mixing that you were mixing some of the classic emo staples with your own your own maybe newly

30:41W. David Marx:discovered japanese streetwear obsession that's right i didn't it wasn't that cool this sounds much more romantic than it was but yeah it was don't worry don't worry david we were all there

30:50Jason Stewart:in our own ways and we know it wasn't that cool yeah but looking back very cool very ahead of the time but at the time they were not able to really understand your level of dress and just yet which you know blessing and a curse of being whatever it is that you are but i probably wore the same

31:06W. David Marx:pair of jeans every single day for about two years in college like that yeah so did you freeze them

31:12Chris Black:put them in the freezer yeah what kind of salvage are we rocking with though that was so at the time

31:16W. David Marx:in New York because like there's nothing in Boston so I'd go to New York to shop and I had a pair of 45 RPM like Japanese salvage and uh they weren't that expensive but yeah I just that was like basically I'd wear those in a t-shirt every single day and uh I had a camo bape record bag that was bright blue that looked like hell yeah that looked like flowers to every other person because nobody knows what it is and they're like why does he wear that flower tote bag

31:42Chris Black:everywhere damn you had the i forgot about record bags which is simply a messenger bag that is shaped to hold square vinyl yeah exactly but those were really you need it i'm sure jason had a few statement dj bags as well you're not the only one they weren't no no i was more utilitarian with my

31:59Jason Stewart:vinyl transpo are you saying you put it i didn't go paul frank would it put it in a gelson's bag yeah no no there was there was you know you have to go and get them at guitar center and not at bar names. Oh, I see.

32:10Chris Black:I see. I see. It wasn't cute. That makes more sense. I like this. I think this look, it doesn't sound like you've strayed that far from it, Dave. Honestly. I mean, I think because I've been thinking about this a lot lately. It's like, wait. You wear a lot of camo baby tees nowadays. So yeah, it seems like pretty in line with what's going on now. I'm going to say that David has more camo in his storage spaces than we do. That's my guess.

32:29W. David Marx:It's actually not true. I don't work. I feel like it's stolen valor a little bit to wear camo. It's the same with Carhartt. It is. You know, I just never worked a road crew. I can't I can't rock Carhartt.

32:39Chris Black:You ain't digging ditches. Let me introduce you to the idea of de-badging, something that I'm passionate about no matter what the brand is. We're taking that tag off. If it's visible, we're taking it off. The tailor's taking it off. I have one pair of Carhartt pants that I love because they're brown and I feel like it's a strange color, but I agree with you. When I wear them, I'm like, I sit in front of a computer all day. I'm a total pussy. This doesn't feel right.

33:01Jason Stewart:Okay, so you mentioned wearing the same pair of denim every day, not washing them for multiple years, possibly. In our era, Chris and I, a lot of our friends are doing the same. A lot of them, there's a two-parter. A lot of them, no underwear. I'm assuming you were going underwear. And a lot of them, you would have to do things, put them in the freezer, spray them with weird things. But also, you don't seem like a particularly pissy pants kind of person. So I think you kept things on the up and up, right? You a pissy guy, W.

33:33W. David Marx:David? There was no special knowledge at that time. We didn't know about the freezer. There was no internet forum at that point.

33:40Chris Black:That's good, because I still stand by... You've heard about the pissy salvage rumor, I'm sure. Yeah, no. David, you haven't.

33:47Jason Stewart:Pissy salvage opening for fake mink right now on a couple select dates.

33:51Chris Black:I love pissy salvage. But the idea is that the reason crotches blow out on men's jeans is because no matter what you do, there's a little bit of drip that touches that part of the denim, and then it eventually blows out. and although that sounds ridiculous it's a acidic reaction it's just simple yeah but upon further review on upon further review it's not that crazy of an idea they really do blow out it's true that they blow out no i just i think it's a really crazy because i just feel like i that really is the first part of jeans unless you you know fall off your bike and skin your knee that's the first

34:23W. David Marx:part of the jeans that give you know yeah i had to i had to get them taken in because i blew the crotch that's that's just the way it worked they would be perfect except that the crotch would blow

34:32Chris Black:and you'd have to go in and get them hemmed up. I have the best pair of APC jeans from like 2002 that I can't believe ever fit on my body. You know what I mean? And I've given them to my wife, but they are just, the amount of times I had the crotch repaired, it cost me more than the jeans.

34:51Jason Stewart:You're telling Alex is wearing your little fat ass pants from 2002 and they're working for her?

34:55Chris Black:I mean, she's got to wear a belt, but like, I mean,

34:57Jason Stewart:that's a testament to how possibly snatched you were at this time.

35:00Chris Black:I wasn't, I don't think I was snatched. I think my pants were too tight. I think it's too...

35:04Jason Stewart:It was probably a little SpongeBobby. Things are looking real tight down below and then up top is where it all goes.

35:10W. David Marx:Exactly. Have you done the butler before where you take in your old pairs and you get a discount?

35:15Jason Stewart:At APC, you mean?

35:17W. David Marx:Yeah, so APC has this thing, yeah.

35:19Chris Black:Something doesn't sit right with me with that. I just feel like I don't... I'm happy to buy something that's been washed, you know what I mean, or whatever, but I don't know if I want to buy somebody else's destroyed jeans unless they're actually vintage. for like 501s unless they're hot well you don't have to you don't have to buy them but you can

35:35W. David Marx:sell them or you can give them to a pc and get a discount and so i mean but it feels like but i'm part of the problem honor but it feels like an honor when you bring them in and they're like they actually accept it it's like yeah thank you i've done my service because they have okay okay because there's some they're like though this your fate sucks where you want to like you want to go

35:53Jason Stewart:into a pc and then you you dump the little whole foods bag out on the counter and somebody's like hey get get steve over here he needs to take a look at this like you want all the staff to stop holding clothes and come and be an admire your wash they're like shit this is we can actually

36:08W. David Marx:take this one yeah yeah exactly so that it feels like a badge of honor that i have i have butlered two pairs okay someone out there in the space has my old what's the but yeah i want to know what guy

36:18Chris Black:got those because you're as tall as jason or close i think yeah and maybe at that point that the fit

36:24W. David Marx:was like you had a really, they were like Tom Brown crop. So maybe they worked for other people.

36:30Chris Black:Did you see that story Jake Gallagher wrote for the New York Times about the guy who wears the crazy salvage jeans every day that are like - Extremely long. They're like 12 feet long. They're really long. They're 12 feet long so he wears them every day. They're naked and famous, I think. So he wears them every day to get the crazy honey, to get the stack. And he looks, he has to like lay down. It's like putting, it's crazy. The whole thing is so crazy. I told Jacob,

36:53Jason Stewart:I don't, these jeans look pretty normal to me. I also like what you said, naked and famous. Sean, come over to Korea, ain't got nothing but the naked and famous.

37:01Chris Black:I ain't putting any respect on naked and famous's name. I'm sorry. That's just me.

37:05Jason Stewart:Okay, well, we do plan to talk about your great new book, Blank Space, but it would be foolish even on pub day with so much going on. The literary girls are fighting. There's a lot of stuff happening in your media space with the Olivia Nuzi, the Dasha Hollywood reporter going on. It feels like we're in a well-actually, quote-unquote, type of journalism where the story comes out and then two days later, somebody's like, this is actually the story. And it feels like there's narrative, like soap opera, WWE infighting going on to maybe get clicks. I don't know. What do you think?

37:47W. David Marx:I mean, you guys love this, right? This is like your bread and butter. Oh, do I love it.

37:50Chris Black:Are you kidding me?

37:51Jason Stewart:I'm vibrating over here. I'm a little separated from the space as I only read when we have guests on the podcast who write books, but Chris is more in the media space.

38:01Chris Black:I think the nuzzy stuff is sort of whatever. I think she's like, I don't know. That doesn't interest me that much. I think she's going to be fine and the book's probably good. And I love the drama of her calling him the politician only and not referring to him by name when we all know by name. But the fact that her ex-boyfriend waited 10 years to post a substack today about her having another thing with another politician is some of the nastiest work I've ever seen. And I'm deeply impressed. And I'm actually writing about this right now. This is the best use of substack I've ever seen. This is the actual reason for a paywall.

38:34Jason Stewart:And also, millions of people know what Telos is today who did not know yesterday. I'm assuming.

38:41Chris Black:Maybe.

38:42Jason Stewart:I didn't know what it was. I don't. Man, I'm glad I read the internet before doing this podcast.

38:46W. David Marx:But it'd be weird if you didn't. Is this the part of the problem? You know, like what sense is like, is if culture is all gossip at every level, like there's indie gossip now in a way that there used to only be celebrity gossip. Now it's like, this is like, there's writer gossip and dime square gossip. There's like gossip all the way up and down the chain. But wasn't there always, I guess there was always, yeah.

39:09Chris Black:There was always industry, but I think this is the, the problem is we all have access to it, whether we're in the industry or not.

39:15W. David Marx:so like how do you what do you think about dumois in the sense that that site is gossip but it's also surveillance state it's like let's crowdsource rumors about everyone with photographs that are that the celebrity didn't even know it was taken and we'll turn that into an entire content business

39:34Jason Stewart:it's like uber for gossip that's just you put you guys to work we talk about all of a camera on your

39:39Chris Black:phone we talk about this all that we talk about this all the time and i'm sorry to bj i know he's listening because he's been a victim but i think that the um the do do moi the issue is well it's gawker stalker which i know you remember yeah like gawker stalker is the original version of this but there's no pictures so it's sort of like i saw mary kate olsen at whatever cafe jaton is not it's not like dangerous because it's you know what i mean this is getting to the point where like you're doxing someone yeah i think it is a surveillance state and i don't really i i follow them but i unmuted the story because it's too much because i do love a paparazzi photo what can i say i'm a i'm a sucker for that i love a blurry photo from across the street but i think it is like i don't know because i think it's now i mean it's happened to civilians right it's like happens when somebody that door dash driver found the guy asleep and videoed him and posted it and and she went to jail because it was like you can't do you can't just do that it's like when somebody films someone in the locker room of the gym and thinks they're going to get a lot of likes on it it's like I don't think we're moving further away from that.

40:45Chris Black:I think we're moving more to it, I would say.

40:48Jason Stewart:Yeah, well, what I was asking originally, do you think that we're in a time where we're all fighting for clicks, all these media industries are failing, do you think it's possible that they're trying to create these narratives like how they do with politics or whatever where we're using our Substack platform or our New Yorker pieces or our Vanity Fair essays to sort of have these inter-writer relationships with other people in an effort to maybe get more clicks? Or is this just the way the cards have laid?

41:23W. David Marx:Everything's moving to that direction, but at some point, is it just too much and everybody goes a different way? I don't know. I mean, again, it's like you're going to click on it, and the problem is that love clicks are the same as hate clicks, and there's no way to tell the difference. And so the entire system, the data that you get about like, what should we cover? There's no way to know. It's like people actually like this or they just want to know or they feel like they have to know. And the degree to which like our cultural capital now is not like, oh, I know this thing and you don't know it or I'm into this restaurant or I'm into this brand or whatever.

42:01W. David Marx:But it's also like you have to know all the low down stuff too in order to have a conversation with anybody. So the degree to which our media literacy is based off following the most salacious parts of media culture, I think that's also pretty baked in. I don't know. It's only getting more that direction.

42:20Chris Black:I think there'll be a rebellion at some point. You know, small but mighty. The same way there's the group of kids now that are like, we don't use our phones. You know, that's like whack. I think everything has a reaction eventually. But I think you're right. I think when there's money to be made off of it, it's a little harder to disengage.

42:36Jason Stewart:Yeah, when it's the only way to make money. What do you think about, as somebody who's prolific with the pen and written multiple books and many other things, how do you feel about Olivia Nuzi writing or claiming to write most of her book on her phone while hiking in Malibu? Do you believe that? Are you envious of that? Do you wish you had that ability? Are you doing voice-to-text when you're on your Kyoto walks?

43:01W. David Marx:I mean so many books are basically 140 pages of triple spaced like they're an extended essay

43:08Chris Black:hey David do not come for me I'm not even done yet bro do not do that I'm trying to go

43:13Jason Stewart:quad I want to be the first guy to do quad space 110 ,000 words chopped it down to 85 ,000 for this book right Chris what do you got right now not there

43:23Chris Black:I don't know he's at the top of Mount Kilimanjaro I'm at the bottom

43:27Jason Stewart:he's looking for parking

43:28W. David Marx:we'll talk later i'll give you some give you some tips but look if you're doing a 40 000 word book yeah you just you can transcribe that i mean or if it's just i don't know i i do a very different thing i do uh very overly dense overly researched bits and i and i can't i can't just uh yeah bang it out by voice uh but she can and if you go and look at the books that actually sell they're all memoirs and famous people.

43:56Jason Stewart:One's not better than the other. She's doing it right. I don't know. Just different styles.

44:01W. David Marx:I do a much less successful thing. So who am I to judge?

44:05Chris Black:Well, so you're saying you do this exhaustive research, so then you have material to work from. You do all the research first and then break it down? Or do you do an outline first and then plug the research in?

44:17W. David Marx:Yeah, it's like a combination of the two. But the most important thing is never start with a blank sheet of paper. Like every day I know the thing that I should have done yesterday. So I'm making up for it. So like the process is, is never sitting down and be like, I gotta get inspiration. It's like, Oh yeah, I gotta, I gotta cover chocolate rain. Cause I forgot to get to that paragraph. So, so basically, yeah, I mean, I always have an outline and then the outline gets expanded out, but like, as I read and as I do research, everything slots into the outline and then it gets sucked in. It's, it's like a very systematic thing.

44:50W. David Marx:It's like, I can, it's akin to building, a building. It's like an architectural project.

44:55Chris Black:It's not poetry.

44:57W. David Marx:Did you discover

44:58Chris Black:this? Did it become your process or this is how you book one? This is how I do this.

45:04W. David Marx:It became my process just because I can move really fast if I did it that way. I think the speed is important to me and it's got to be if you've got structure and you've got the notes, you can bang it out.

45:19Jason Stewart:You were mentioning that the sort of self-transcribed memoirs are the ones that sell the most and everyone clamps onto. And obviously that's true. And I think that those kind of can oftentimes burn bright and then sort of have a shorter tail. Whereas what you're doing, I feel like it's almost the inverse where if you're writing about history that happened a year ago, my ass already knows all of that stuff. But then what you're doing, I feel like as the decades click on, you could experience even a gain in sales and revenue as this information becomes more valuable and scarce.

46:02W. David Marx:It's a long-term strategy. I'm thinking about the children. And there are people who are born right now who don't know who the Hawk Tua girl is. And at some time, they're going to want to know what was that about.

46:12Chris Black:I hate that. I hate that. Imagine not living through the Hawk Tua era. imagine the void in your heart that that you do i mean that's crazy to think about without her

46:22Jason Stewart:without talk to a hellongan would have never even i would have never even thought about it but how

46:27W. David Marx:do you feel that she traded millions of dollars away uh she she took the million dollar two million dollar rug pull or whatever and then had to give away the podcast that the podcast got sacrificed so that she could go into hiding i mean she she can't do talk to it and rug pull When you rug pull, you're making a deal with the devil that you are no longer a podcaster.

46:50Chris Black:We can't come back from that. Let me say this, guys. I don't think Hawk Tua handled it maybe the right way, if that's a surprise to you guys. Maybe the fame was too much. Hailey Welch. Maybe Hailey Welch was just flabbergasted by the fame and attention and she was unable to cope and maybe acted accordingly.

47:09W. David Marx:Say mal, hast du bei der Steuer auch diesen Schwul-Flashback? just tell something and hope that it's true? No, at all. Why is the tax is my safe space? You mean everything is safe? Yes, exactly. Why is the tax is the app that understands you. No matter whether it's a job, job or a job. That's right. It doesn't feel like tax is like tax. Tax is done? Safe. With Why is the tax?

47:39W. David Marx:If your job was working in a spring factory, in a town in Tennessee that no one's ever heard of, then maybe taking the rug pull was the right option. Who are we to judge?

47:49Jason Stewart:I think there's a decent chance that maybe she was taken advantage of by other people, perhaps. I don't know.

47:55W. David Marx:You think the crypto people aren't all above board,

47:58Jason Stewart:is what you're saying? I just don't know if she was a master of blockchain before all of this fame.

48:03Chris Black:Somebody I was talking to, they were like, I don't even know what blockchain means. Oh, oh, Tina Brown was like, I don't know what blockchain means. And I was like, this is so, we need more of this. yeah we need more of this old bitches winning bro the the exploration of crypto and and sort of all of that digital art and how everyone in our lives was telling us that if we didn't get into that we were the dumbest guy alive and i was gonna be poor for the rest of my life it seems like we just glazed over that like it just came and went and there was no real like not like persecution but

48:35W. David Marx:kind of like yo this was all fake like this was all kind of fake my ethereum's only gone up bro You can't get it off your phone, though. You have all this Ethereum. If you ever want to use any of it, it's impossible. You have to have a PhD in five different apps. But there was a time a couple years ago when, as you said, it felt like, okay, everyone else in the entire world is going to be a billionaire because of this stuff, and I'm just going to not be into it. But then I realized basically the people with the worst instincts in the entire world are going to get super rich to the degree that money will be really uncool because it will be like, oh, you have money.

49:08W. David Marx:Oh, you're one of those NFT guys. Whatever you got to tell yourself, bro. Whatever you got to tell yourself.

49:12Chris Black:I wish I could say that. But if I had a penthouse in Miami and three supercars, I'd probably be better off right now. If I had a pet lion, I wouldn't be talking to you fucking guys. No, I do think they made – I think that the bored ape of it all is maybe the worst. I think that was visually so offensive whereas the other stuff I can barely comprehend it so it didn't offend me as much it was just something that I kept having to hear about from people who are not who I feel are not as smart as I am telling me that I'm an idiot for not doing it that that that is my relationship to that did you sell your board ape uh yeah I unloaded I unloaded all of my apes and and you know I didn't do super well on them but here we are.

49:55Chris Black:He didn't lose money.

49:56W. David Marx:Jason, have you ever DJed? Did you ever DJ a Bored Ape Yacht

49:59Jason Stewart:Club party? No. Thank God. I would have been, I mean, I guess if I would have been paid in Bitcoin, I probably would have fucking done it.

50:06Chris Black:He's doing Mar-a-Lago next week, but he won't do that stuff, bro. That's too far.

50:11Jason Stewart:Yeah, I'm not in the Bored Ape.

50:12Chris Black:Him and Keith, he's doing scratches on Keith Urban's set, so it's going to be a pretty sick mashup at Mar-a-Lago. But we did do an NFT, but you know i think we should all be proud of ourselves and riding on a high horse that we were

50:25Jason Stewart:able to resist that because i think that like hooray for us yeah it really felt like i also know multiple people who have bought homes because they have bitcoin see i hear i i don't or maybe i

50:37Chris Black:do but i don't know someone who did that as successfully as it looks on instagram let me

50:42Jason Stewart:let me say that i think i think it happened sort of before the the that nft era happened yeah that's The homie that had it in 2013. And just like, I got like two grand into it. And then 10 years later, I have$900 ,000 type shit. And I just quietly bought a house in Highland Park kind of thing.

51:00W. David Marx:But all the crypto stuff was alternative culture, right? It's like, that's what alternative culture is in 2025 is financial speculation.

51:11Chris Black:I hate to agree with you, but you make a point. I mean, I think it's just like alternative culture to me means - Alternative to what? To being poor? No, I think that it gives these people that are not - To me and to us, alternative culture probably relates to the arts most often. Yeah. But I think this offered an opportunity for people who don't even know what alternative culture means to do something that felt like a pushback on societal norms.

51:41Jason Stewart:I'm looking for an alternative to going to college and getting a job.

51:44Chris Black:Yeah, but I'm like a jock or whatever. I just like to party, and I don't care about... Culture doesn't mean going to the museum to me. It means something different to everyone, I guess.

51:56W. David Marx:What was your favorite museum in Conyers? What's the top three?

52:00Chris Black:Top three museums in Conyers, there was a Wendy's, there was a Shoney's, and there were two McDonald's on both sides of town, so it was pretty sick in that way.

52:10W. David Marx:So my brother lives in Athens. I think I told you this already, but I asked him, what's Conyers? Tell me of Conyers. He's like, oh, it's really famous because it had a big syphilis outbreak.

52:19Chris Black:That's true. Famously, it was a PBS special, but just to clear this up, it was at the other high school. Okay. It was at the other. It wasn't at Heritage High School. It was at Salem High School, but you can get it on DVD, I believe. It was like a really produced - You can get syphilis on DVD? Oh, the documentary. The documentary. But Conyers is not a place that I'm looking to go back to, even for a visit. It's no Snellville. Why does your brother live in Athens?

52:50W. David Marx:He's a doctor at the hospital there. I don't know. If you live in the South, Athens is one of the top cool places you could be.

52:58Chris Black:Yes, but it's too far from the airport is the only thing I would say. If you want to go to the airport, it's a two-hour thing. which I think a lot of musicians live there.

53:08Jason Stewart:Fine for most people, not for you, Chris, a known traveler.

53:11Chris Black:But it's such a, I mean, less so now, but a lot of professional musicians live there. And I'm like, that just seems like a bad idea considering how often you're having to leave.

53:21W. David Marx:What are the cool cities in the South these days? Because when I was growing up, it was Chapel Hill, Austin, Athens, maybe Nashville.

53:28Jason Stewart:I think Asheville, North Carolina seems to be on the up and up. Asheville's great. I love Asheville. Asheville's cool. I think I like Charleston the best.

53:35Chris Black:I mean, it's a little more commercial, but it has more to offer.

53:40Jason Stewart:Like how Old Navy has a big selection, same kind of vibe.

53:42Chris Black:That's about it, though. I mean, Nashville's blown out. Austin is blown out. But Austin and Nashville are blown out in a way that I hate to admit I don't mind because those places never contain such culture to me. It's like I'd rather there be an Equinox there than not. I don't see – like I can still get a breakfast taco.

54:00Jason Stewart:Shitty with Equinox is better than just shitty.

54:02Chris Black:Yeah, I don't romanticize Richard Linklater's Austin. That's not my thing. But I think the South is, I think Houston and Dallas, I think all those places are thriving. I think they're doing quite well economically because obviously there's no taxes, and it's hot. That's all you really need to attract people at this point.

54:25Jason Stewart:And Landman and 1823 and Yellowstone and all those shows are really making the wide open plains of Texas appealing.

54:34Chris Black:What do you think about all of this sort of, what do you think about the American flag of it all? The fact that all of these shows and movies are sort of pandering to, it's not super obvious, they're walking a line, but we know who it's for. And it's partly for me, it's partly for somebody else.

54:51W. David Marx:Yeah, I mean, the interesting thing about it is just how non-aspirational it is for anyone outside of the United States. and so you know the united states used to be the center of pop culture and one of the things i kind of track in the book is the degree to which i still think america's pulling most of the weight but that it's producing a bunch of things that just have no appeal outside of its borders and so i mean k-pop is interesting the degree to which it can appeal to all these people in south america or uh it's not just an east asia thing but yeah i don't know if i don't know if uh people in the

55:26Jason Stewart:uk are really psyched to watch yellowstone well let's let's use japan your your home as a case study famously love the western culture of america from the 50s 40s 30s 60s all that stuff and now we are returning back to cowboy related content and dramas do japanese people romanticize watching yellowstone and landman and all these paramount shows with absolutely not old white I don't think a single person has seen any of them. Okay. Landman does sound like a grocery store in Japan, though, I will say.

56:02Chris Black:I mean, Landman is good as hell, but I also do think that it's not super ripe for exporting based on the – I mean, I think – but I do think there's a time where we romanticize like cowboys, which is kind of what it is, but maybe we've moved on.

56:19W. David Marx:Chris, what did you think – you've been to Korea. I know you've already talked about this, but what did what did you think i'm good i'm good i don't know if i need to go back i would go back

56:29Chris Black:i'm going i'm going to tokyo for the first time in december i'm very excited yeah yeah of course but i think that um i think that k-pop is one of the hardest things for me to understand maybe ever in my life culturally because the music isn't good and the the like whole thing some of it is feels so corrupt and wild. That's what's fascinating to me, but it seems to be that that's just fine. These people are basically on indentured servants and everybody's cool with it. That's the most fascinating thing to me.

57:02Jason Stewart:Yeah, but is Tate McRae and Somber, is their life that much different?

57:09Chris Black:Yes, 100%. They can have sex and do drugs without going to jail. Right.

57:16Jason Stewart:like that this that that i mean i'm not talking about the legal ramifications in each country but more so in the way that they're being incubated by the higher powers that be and and everything that they do is being controlled with the silent hand i don't think

57:30Chris Black:i don't think anything compares to k-pop in that way because they're like bred for it like i mean they're literally put into like a camp when they're children the same body same face disney

57:38W. David Marx:club bro disney same shit chris how often do you drink k-pop flavored cocahola these days

57:44Chris Black:i never had a sip when i was there and i tried to bring one back to have jason try it and it was too big to go through screw but they made me a can with my name on it i was like this is pretty sick actually and then i was trying i was literally like i'm gonna bring it to jason to get an expert to taste this and at security they were like nah chief i drank a coca-cola last night while

58:02Jason Stewart:discussing the new cat's eye single so i feel like i got pretty close to whatever it is you

58:06Chris Black:guys are talking about right now same thing yeah same thing i don't know but is that do you think that the korean and japanese like when companies like coca-cola or whatever try to do something specifically for these markets how different is it than the regular products that we're getting in america like do they really tailor it or is it sort of a packaging thing when i was growing up

58:24W. David Marx:there was always a rumor if you went to the coca-cola museum they had like a room where you could taste all the coca-colas that's real i've been there several times and it's like they have flour flavored drinks from japan it just sounded like japan was on like a different dimension but I don't know. It's all kind of the same.

58:38Jason Stewart:They've got the miso. They've got the goju jam, Coca-Cola. It's all there.

58:42W. David Marx:Yeah, and once in a while, I go to the convenience store, and there's Mellow Yellow, and it's like, I didn't expect to see that. But I know there's Dr. Pepper. There's Coke. It's all the same. Everything's homogenized everywhere.

58:52Chris Black:I would agree. But then there's the fascination with the 7-Eleven and how it's not a place where people go to take a piss. It's like a place you eat dinner. That, to me, is one of the biggest differences.

59:05W. David Marx:I wouldn't go that far. I wouldn't go that far Just a table for three The egg sandwich is It holds up There's so much preservatives in the food I can't eat it

59:18Chris Black:There's also something that's happened in America In the last I would say 10 years Where it's sort of romanticized By upper middle class people To enjoy fast food As a treat and talk about it Whether it's Chick-fil-A or Raisin Cane

59:34Jason Stewart:Like Chrissy Teigen saying like here's my mcdonald's order you got like that kind of thing it's become yeah it's become like

59:40Chris Black:uh uh i don't know it's it's just different it's not looked down upon you know it's not at all look it's looked as sort of just like participating in like american or like low culture i guess is the way to put it it's what happens when the dum-dums are in charge i but i mean i do love

59:55W. David Marx:american fast food and and chick-fil-a is a flavor you can't get unless you're at a chick-fil-a uh Maybe you should fry a pickle. You can probably replicate it a little bit.

1:00:05Jason Stewart:I mean, McDonald's is a flavor that you can't get anywhere else, but that doesn't necessarily... I mean, I don't think that anyone thinks that the food is good, but I think it's like a chemical reaction that they have. Like, nobody likes Zin, but nevertheless, I'm taking a Zin. You know what I mean? Like, it tastes like you're chewing aluminum foil, but you keep coming back to it, you know? Smoking cigarettes is disgusting, but it's also sick.

1:00:28Chris Black:Are you smoking cigs over there? Jason or me I know Jason's smoking cigs I'm talking about you I got a pack of Armenian cigarettes

1:00:37Jason Stewart:Vic our driver If anyone needs a driver in LA Just let me know But I referred him to somebody And he's like Jason you smoke right He pulls out a pack of cigarettes from his trunk Armenian cigarette And I was like I'm not going to smoke this shit I smoked one last night I shouldn't have doubted the Armenians In the cigarette space They do more research than anyone outside of the Chinese.

1:01:00W. David Marx:I was in Europe and I did get very seduced by the hand-rolled. Like, hand-rolled culture is pretty cool. And then you can get tobacco that actually has flavor that doesn't just taste like, you know, chemical processed, whatever, the ones in the boxes. So you can get, I mean, you can get the vanilla and you get like a Baja Blast one, probably too. I mean, they're a little bit like -

1:01:22Jason Stewart:It doesn't have those fake chemicals. You can just get a nice, normal Baja Blast.

1:01:27W. David Marx:But you can get like Virginia or something. You can get mango. You can get some nice old school tobacco flavor. But something is wrong in my body with nicotine. And so every time I'm massively hungover, it's because I actually smoked a cigarette.

1:01:45Chris Black:So I have to be careful. It contributes. So as a person who writes what you write, can you just enjoy something? or is your wheel turning too much to sort of just be like, that was good and not feel like you need to find a place to... Can you? I can't. I can't. No, I can't. But he's doing it at white paper level. We're doing it at bathroom level.

1:02:09W. David Marx:No, I can absolutely not enjoy it without thinking about it too much. So for example, this new Geese album, I really like this new Geese album at a basic level. I just like listening to it. But at the same time, I have this ping of doubt, which is like, am I being reactionary by being into this geese album is this uh should i be rejecting these rock and roll conventions is there am i gonna get shit for for liking this geese album too much because we're at the point where geese is overrated like the summer of 2001 when i moved to new york the strokes were oh my god the strokes are the biggest deal and then within three weeks it was the strokes are overrated and then within two weeks it was the strokes are uh yes they're overrated but they're actually incredible so like with geese like i'm i'm very worried like what part of the cycle am i in etc etc so yeah there's no way i can you have to trust yourself bro no i i think the same way you trusted yourself about the strokes yeah i didn't have i didn't have an opinion about the strokes they were uh hard to explain is definitely top top 10 great song of the 21st century though i played that song

1:03:11Jason Stewart:at a wedding in new york three days ago it's good for karaoke too uh it's a it's a good karaoke track

1:03:18W. David Marx:but uh no i i way overthink everything and i don't know that's i like stuff i mean i like stuff a lot but even if i like it i'll think about it uh and think about what other people

1:03:31Jason Stewart:are saying about it too like you you're not able to listen to size gangnam style because you know that he's a draft dodger and has been arrested for marijuana possession whereas most people in the world are just able to enjoy his perfect music i didn't know that at all but the funny

1:03:45W. David Marx:thing about that that track was the degree which it there was like a million pieces yeah but there's a million a million think pieces that were like oh that song is actually this incredibly subtle satire of class consciousness and created the references the coffee are are talking about the

1:04:03Jason Stewart:the class stratification basically like a clash song yeah and then i read the lyrics i'm like what

1:04:07W. David Marx:the fuck are they talking about it's just like literally just there's there's four references the coffee and that's what and then the hey sexy ladies uh that's about that's about it i think i think actually one of my fact checks was i'm sorry it's not hey sexy ladies it's just hey sexy lady

1:04:20Chris Black:it's like yeah because he's a one man he's yeah size of one kind one woman kind of guy he's not

1:04:26Jason Stewart:a philanderer we know that but i've seen some cool photos of si like backstage at shows and like hanging out with other people and he's like i was just nice to learn that this guy who you think is just this one hit wonder cheesiest dude of all time like a mambo number five type of scenario but he's actually a sick ass guy like he's done a lot of cool stuff and he just happened to have the biggest song of the last whatever 50 years in asia you know i had a friend and now he's a now he's he's like a guy fieri of korea i had a friend who worked with sai because he spoke korean

1:04:59Chris Black:and helped like in america and then he became part of the team and to this day some of the greatest stories I've ever heard about touring was like the heyday of Psy and how much money was being exchanged for him to do that one song. It was so global that I don't know if honestly it might have been the last of its kind as far as like sort of a novelty but really had a tale like he was probably doing that shit for five years. Oh yeah. Power of YouTube. Lil Nas X

1:05:26Jason Stewart:when that was big he was not traveling over the world to perform that song. It was just kind of like. I felt very US focused. Yeah. It was not on the global scale. So a couple notes from the book I wanted to go over. Hit me. Speaking of music, I didn't know that Justin Bieber's mom was against him signing with Scooter Braun because he was Jewish.

1:05:50W. David Marx:No, well, she talked to her church elders and they blessed it.

1:05:55Jason Stewart:Duh.

1:05:57W. David Marx:Yeah, that's an incredible quote. That's from a New York Times story.

1:05:59Chris Black:Does she not know how Hollywood works? You got it. I mean, come on. She didn't know. I guess she's from outer Ontario

1:06:06Jason Stewart:She learned quickly that It was a wise choice To side with Scooter Braun

1:06:11W. David Marx:The church elders knew They knew how things worked

1:06:14Jason Stewart:They blessed it They're like hold on he fucks with Usher Let's do this Look they're not going to heaven But they have a way with these deals You know what I mean And I also didn't know that Bieber signed Carly Rae Jepsen And like made Call me maybe like a thing

1:06:32W. David Marx:Yeah, I mean, the urban legend.

1:06:33Jason Stewart:And the way that Usher signed him and the way that Akon signed Lady Gaga.

1:06:39W. David Marx:My understanding of the chain of events that led to Call Me Maybe is that the song was being played on radio in Canada because Canada has that rule where they have to play like 60 % Canadian music or some Canadian is going to fact check this. But they have to play Canadian music. So they're playing it and he hears it on the radio. It's like, this is incredibly catchy. And then he calls Scooter. It's like, we got to sign her. And then signs her. and then they make the kind of viral video and that's what makes it go up. But it looked like some sort of just amateur fan project. The Bieber's just into her and that's why it got big.

1:07:11W. David Marx:But there's a lot of machinations.

1:07:12Chris Black:Can I ask a question about the, I don't know what the viral video is. There's like a video of him and Selena

1:07:18Jason Stewart:like they posted like a selfie of them like singing the song on social media. And then obviously that's all you have to do to have something catch fire.

1:07:26W. David Marx:Like a low budget smartphone video of them lip syncing the song in their house.

1:07:31Jason Stewart:Probably on Twitter, like pre-Instagram even maybe. Yeah. Okay. That will lead to success.

1:07:37Chris Black:I mean, that still would lead to success.

1:07:39Jason Stewart:Oh, yeah. Okay. So you wrote about when the written word and text-based media was sort of replaced by memes and imagery and things like that. And that's where we're living right now. And now -

1:07:51W. David Marx:That's why I wrote a book. Yeah, exactly.

1:07:54Jason Stewart:Which could not be adapted into a screenplay or a film at all, unless we get, you know, a great document. Kenny Burns on the horn or something like that. But that would be cool. You should work with him. But now that video is sort of king and everything is moving into that space and it's, you know, it's sort of the new JPEG in so many ways because anyone can create it and edit it and it's a moving photo. So we like it more. What do you, do you think that something is next? Are you predicting the rise of something that will be post video? or is that sort of where things end?

1:08:29W. David Marx:I really think we're going back to real life in the sense that like Sora is going to make it where you can by prompt create a video of anything, right? Like if you think it's pretty good right now, you know, in five years, it's going to be like make me a Scorsese film and then you're going to have a Scorsese film. So like everything -

1:08:48Jason Stewart:We're moving past Will Smith eating spaghetti pretty quickly. Oh, yeah.

1:08:52W. David Marx:It's not even going to be weird and quirky anymore. It's just going to be like every single thing you see online will be generated by your aunt. And your aunt is just making like new seasons of Real Housewives in cities that never existed. And so you're never going – like everything online is going to feel less valuable and all media is going to feel less valuable and all video will feel less valuable. And so like the only thing you'll trust is to see things in real life. And so we may be moving towards just like a complete destruction of all mediation. You heard it here first.

1:09:27Jason Stewart:Mediation. Okay, well. Mediation. Mediation. So right now, a 13-year-old who's very savvy with the intranet, they're able to really detect if something is AI-based or Sora created versus your boomer grandma or your dad easily tricked by a fake video, of course.

1:09:46Chris Black:Or me. Or me.

1:09:47Jason Stewart:Or Chris. I didn't want to say. Are we ever going to reach a point where, like, are the young, smart, savvy kids always going to be able to tell when something is real or fake on the internet? Or are we going to reach a point where the uncanny valley is non-existent?

1:10:06W. David Marx:I mean, you should assume that it's going to get so good that you can't tell the difference anymore. That's the whole point.

1:10:12Jason Stewart:Yeah. But also our human brains will get so good at knowing all of it, you know what I mean? Don't sleep on humans.

1:10:18Chris Black:No, I think we should sleep on humans.

1:10:19Jason Stewart:I got a dope little computer up here in the mental.

1:10:23W. David Marx:It's going to make real life more valuable. I really believe. Social media is making in-person things more valuable. You guys talk about restaurants all the time. It's because being in a restaurant, you can't.

1:10:33Jason Stewart:Yeah, but people have been saying experiential marketing has been a hot new thing for the last 15 years. We've got to do things IRL. Don't you like doing things IRL? I don't think we're going in that direction. No, I think we are. Yeah, I do too. but I think that overall humanity is doing less and less. I can't solve humanity. We're door dashing our McDonald's more than going to McDonald's. We're losing the IRL battle. Nobody goes to a movie theater. Oftentimes people aren't dining out. They're having everything brought to them.

1:11:04W. David Marx:I think one of the issues is you can't solve these problems for everybody. And one of the things about being an angsty teenager in 1992 that I think we've forgotten is i wasn't i just didn't like heavy metal i liked rem but i didn't care if the entire world like liked rem it was just like we had our own thing and that you're out and proud and i think that's dope yeah but the thing so it's like what you're saying now is like is the normal human going to just sit around watching ai slop probably like that's but that but in terms of like people who care uh people who care about video and music and all these things they'll probably just want to

1:11:42Chris Black:be real life there's always a there's always a fucking rubber band i mean there's always like a you know when anything gets too popular people are going to rebel i forgot i played this thing

1:11:52W. David Marx:for you but suno which generates music right you can give it a prompt and it'll create create a song i was trying to break it and so i gave it the lyrics to wonderwall and then just called the song not wonderwall and said i want to in the genre of british uh acoustic brit pop and it literally just gave me wonderwall but it's like a bad christian rock cover of wonderwall uh but it's like the exact phrasing and melody of wonderwall um and so i i can i guess i do that later but it's i mean the other thing about these systems is they're just obviously pulling from stuff that we've already seen before and so it's just not they're never going to be that interesting

1:12:28Jason Stewart:now that we're in a stuck culture as they say yeah but we gotta you know you guys are fighting the good fight you're you're you're unstuck in it thank you thank you we you were you were discussing um recession pop whatever you know 20 years ago katie perry black eyed peas all that stuff and that is now fully back like i mentioned djing a wedding before like if you play black eyed peas let's get retarded in here in 2025 it's the song of the night and is it a bummer that we are not creating the 2025 version of katie perry and black eyed peas or all this stuff or you know Are we really going to be stuck forever just playing these old songs?

1:13:11W. David Marx:I mean, how many more Beatles films can they make? I like the Beatles, but I don't need every year to be marked by the release of a different Beatles documentary or film.

1:13:21Chris Black:Hey, bro, it's the 33rd and a half anniversary. You have to celebrate that. What do you mean?

1:13:26Jason Stewart:Yeah, but you're not a 67-year-old rich guy with a fucking Apple TV in his living room. When you're – talk to me in 20 years, 30 years, when they keep cranking out Stereolab documentaries or Chibomato or whatever, you're going to be singing a different tune, brother, man.

1:13:42Chris Black:I love David looks you up. He's like, all right, you were right. Goddamn. All right. The fourth Stereolab documentary I did by the DVD. I did by the DVD. It's too good.

1:13:49W. David Marx:No, look, if you complain the culture is stock or is less interesting, the first criticism you get is something like, oh, you just like what you like when you're 18 and then you think it all goes to shit from there. And like, my point is not that at all, which is that I want to be, I want to be confused and totally outraged about the culture that's going on. I want, like, I want beats that I don't understand. And so like, when Juke came out or something, it's like, well, that's weird. I don't understand what that is. I mean, Drill is like, I think similar too, which is like, that's, that's really a new thing.

1:14:21Jason Stewart:What happened to music? You want that, you want to say that out loud when you listen to something for the first time?

1:14:25W. David Marx:Yeah. like the fantasy was always like yeah the music would just get weirder and weirder until it was impenetrable and it went the complete opposite direction so you know when you listen to Taylor Swift

1:14:34Chris Black:I don't know bro I don't know I don't know bro Too Hollis I mean I don't know if you've checked it out but you know yeah I guess everybody's idea of impenetrable is different though

1:14:43W. David Marx:but like so much of Taylor Swift is like I don't need to listen to Taylor Swift because I've already heard every Taylor Swift song that's ever been written

1:14:51Jason Stewart:yeah yeah no true true true yeah it's like the restaurant that sells grilled cheese sandwiches is you're like i think i know what's gonna happen here but some of the the thing with taylor swift

1:15:00Chris Black:is i'm not an expert on her catalog but a friend of mine who is made me a mix to encourage me to understand it yes and i have to say that it's it is like a lot like it all does sound the same but when it's when one stands out it's kind of unbelievable how good it is if that makes sense like it does have a general but then if you get 10 of the best ones i'm like oh these are different Like this is very clearly different, but it is the same. It's very confusing.

1:15:26W. David Marx:Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of it. It just sounds like Lisa Loeb or something. And it's like, if you listen, if you had heard Lisa Loeb or Natalie Imbruglia, it's like, you know what these songs are. Yeah. Just country versions.

1:15:37Jason Stewart:Yeah. I mean, I agree with you, Chris, if you like the, that episode of the bear, when, when Eben is like, he has a win with his daughter or something like that. And, and love story comes on the radio and he starts singing it. You're like, you know, you can't help, but be swept up in the way that when Lena Dunham would drop Robin dancing on my own as they're jumping up on the bed, you're like, this is the dumbest thing ever, but you got me.

1:16:01Chris Black:I like it too much.

1:16:02Jason Stewart:Yeah. I mean, that's the problem. New Robin dropping, Jason. I'm hearing it's amazing. It is. It is. I'm going to go see her tomorrow for an event powered by Acne Clothing Company. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Shout out to my Acne family.

1:16:14Chris Black:I love when the Swedes get together and make something happen over in Los Angeles.

1:16:18Jason Stewart:Should we do a concert? Um, okay. Do we want to, I guess, I mean, we pretty much covered everything. Wired magazine called Tesla sex on wheels. Not so much anymore. Could you, um, I thought that was a funny one. It could not be further from the truth. Lastly, could you explain the, uh, the vice 22 rule? And, uh, if that's something that you could see a version of happening today ever,

1:16:44W. David Marx:obviously not the same thing so the vice 22 rule is that you hire 22 year olds pay them 22 000 a year and work them 22 hours a day is that correct that's right uh i feel like i'm being quizzed but uh that was that was a thing bitch you wrote the book yeah but it's a long time ago

1:17:00Jason Stewart:it was that was a year ago yeah it's a long time it's a big book wow that's a good that's a good

1:17:04Chris Black:theory and i think that that is how i think you could do the same about buzzfeed or you know like all of that era. I think they were able to create a culture where people wanted to be at work and they didn't care how much they were being paid. And I think that's over.

1:17:19Jason Stewart:Yep. But what if we all hate our life and we want an escape? We don't have any friends. We don't have a family or a social element. Are there people out there who don't need the money as much? Maybe they come from a background where it's fine and they can live off of whatever the equivalent of 22k a year is nowadays in order to feel like you're really part of something authentic and you're down to work hard and you're not going to do it for your entire life but it's like a boot camp for four years if you're not a fucking snowflake you know what i mean that's crypto right it's not vice anymore i mean it's just yeah it's just kind of general hustle i think

1:17:56Chris Black:if you culture andrew tate kind of living i think if you look at any of these sort of media companies those people are working there like that that kind of the 22 year old who's down to to work hard and maybe doesn't need the money whether it's because you know for whatever reason because they either don't care because they have it from their family like those people still populate the conde nast tower like that is still who powers those businesses and that can i mean that's you go to any fashion you know it's like the intern this and you know it's like that's still happening yeah But I don't think it's like, I think we glamorized it a bit.

1:18:30Chris Black:And now that would be like, why aren't you making more, you know what I mean? Because you have the crypto guys being like, it's so easy. Just download my program on Instagram and you can be, you know, it's like that's the difference. It's not rewarded anywhere.

1:18:44W. David Marx:Also, if you talk to like editor-in-cheeps who came up through a lot of getting coffees for their former bosses and being assistants, they really dislike the degree that like Gen Z employees hate doing any work. And are just like – and so I think the hustleness also is gone. It's like bifurcated. Like there's – people are only hustling and then there's a bunch of interns who don't think they have to hustle at all. Mm-hmm.

1:19:13Jason Stewart:Yeah. Damn. It takes two kinds. Yeah. And then our man, Tom Freston, he got rug pulled by Vice just the way the crypto bros are rug pulling nowadays. History repeating itself. And that can be all found in blank space. W. David Marks, which is available today on the newsstands. Cultural history of the 21st century. I already knew all of this stuff, but you're so good at writing that it was a pleasure to read still. Thank you.

1:19:38Chris Black:Yeah, we value you as guys who do this for a living, and I think more people should value you. It's very kind. It's an important thing to do, and I think everybody's got no attention span, but I think some of this stuff is worth thinking about deeply. Not in an emotional way, but just in a what does this actually mean kind of way, because it's so easy.

1:20:02Jason Stewart:We got to look to the past to know where to go forward, you know what I mean?

1:20:06Chris Black:dead ass that's what Jason was saying when he was trying to get his chick back but the the book is everywhere go to barnesandnoble.com go to bookshop.org you can hit McNally Jackson we got to get our guy on the hot best the 10 best seller list we got to knock Keith McNally out of there he's been on there for too long let's get some fresh blood

1:20:25Jason Stewart:probably a Popeye store with a book signing soon yeah oh definitely definitely that well thank you thank you for doing this hope you had fun I did

1:20:34W. David Marx:I blow bubbles so big like Mrs. Pup. I be locked in like no, this isn't luck. Bein' fancy like no, this isn't chump. We're my bestie like everything fun. Big guy, big guy, big guy, big guy. Spongebob, big guy, pants okay. Spongebob, big guy, pants okay.

1:20:52Jason Stewart:Big guy, big guy, big guy, big guy. Spongebob, big guy, pants okay. Spongebob, big guy, pants okay. Big things but I happen to you.