873. - Paul Needham

30:43My I want to go back transportation logistics because my highlight of the year on transportation logistics is I'm leaving L.A. lunchtime and I'm checking out Waymo. You know, this is like April or something. So Waymo L.A. Everyone's super excited. Early days. Early mover, of course, in the space. Trying to take Waymo to L.A. X. They won't do it. They don't get on the highway, right? Now they do, but they didn't then, and they don't go to the airport. I way-moed to the In-N-Out next to LAX, had a burger, had a shake, and then walked into the airport, which arriving at LAX on foot is an experience.

31:21That's actually very cool. So you're hoofing it with the Rimowa up the freeway on-ramp to get into the arrivals or departure? I got the Briggs and Riley, Jason. My bad. I'm not at your guys' level. That's how much he's a real wasp, Jason. He's a real wasp. He doesn't have that. He doesn't have our little play play. I'm traveling with luggage. You can't even pronounce, Jason. The real question to me, Paul, is you're willing to get on a six hour flight with a belly full of In-N-Out. That seems having a milkshake before flying is crazier to me than walking to LAX from the In-N-Out. I'm not like thoughtful about what I eat when.

31:56I don't know if I should be. My wife is very, my wife likes to like eat dinner early and like the digestion. you know she's she's all about that it doesn't occur to me i'm like i had craft mac and she is at like 9 30 the other i'm not mindful about my intake you're telling me you're telling me that a woman cares about digestion i don't i don't know if i believe i don't know if i believe you i've never heard any of them talk about okay so a follow-up have you heard there's this app called uber where the car is it's a it's a person driving it and not a ai but it'll take you right to the curb and you don't have to walk on so you think i should have ubered from in and out i think you should ubered from your hotel and they just take you right there no i wanted the way i wanted the waymo experience paul paul how far no no how far was the walk from fucking animal style to lax it was it was longer than i thought it was going to be and it was like big airport looks smaller you did feel like you were kind of in the end of the world a lot of jet fuel going on in the world did you but did you in the other question i have and this is something that's very particular to me did you break a sweat no i didn't break a sweat i don't remember what the weather was but it wasn't like it wasn't like the sun was that to me yeah like tomorrow i would tomorrow uh i will take the elizabeth line from clerkenwell to heathrow and it's 40 minutes instead of an hour and 15 minutes in the car and the elizabeth line makes you feel good about the world it makes you think like we can do things no it's i know yeah we can do this every but i i just mean that if if it was the middle of the summer, that 12-minute walk to the train station, I can't do that because I show up sweating, and then I'm an eight-hour flight or whatever.

33:37I can't. Eight-hour flight with the soggy Bottega? I can't. Exactly. I can't take off my Bottega leather jacket. It's woven, of course, but it gets so hot, but it's part of the look. The Chrome Hearts boxer briefs get a little musty. My leather Chrome Hearts boxer briefs, if you believe me, they get a little musty. Okay, Paul, what's the In-N-Out order? Heads want to know. Honestly, I just do a double cheeseburger, ketchup, fries, black and white shake. And I always get a kick out of when you order a black and white shake at In-N-Out, they call it. Hey, let's not make this about race, bro. I don't want to do that.

34:14It's just a milkshake. I think everyone deserves a milkshake, but go ahead, Paul. They either order a vanilla milkshake and add chocolate or they order a chocolate milkshake and add vanilla, but they can't press the button black and white shit. Wow. They don't have that button. I never really thought of that philosophically. He wanted me to say animal style on lettuce. Da, da, da, da. Give me a break. Give me a break. Play the hits, Jason. Play the hits. But what you're saying about the milkshake then, that is what we in the business would call a little hack. That's not, everybody doesn't know that.

34:46You're saying black and white is for the heads on Reddit or is this something that's like publicly? I think you can walk up and order a black and white shake, but they're not equipped to just smash that button. I don't know if it's up on that menu above. I know definitely vanilla chocolate strawberry up there. It's not on the menu that you can do a combo of them. It'll just be vanilla chocolate strawberry. I've never really eaten it in and out because they don't have a veggie burger and a grilled cheese to me is for children. But my question is within it, what do you think makes it so good? I mean, Jason's are, you know, real food snob on the call.

35:25I would say for me. But I've heard Jason talk about it for 10 years. For me, it's the fries. For me, it's that the fries, you know, they're freshly made in-house. They feel kind of like a little more held together. I don't know if it's like that they were cut not that long ago. And so it's a little more rigid. I like the salt. And then the burger, like, I think it's a little thin. but that bun's really good and you put two of the patties on and I think you're there. I think In-N-Out also to me, it's just like as a New Yorker visiting California, obviously, Chris, you're not quite joining the rest of us but I think it's like just you have to do it when you're in LA.

36:08I think that's actually what's incredible about their business model is that feeling that you just described and that that is almost universal to a certain type of person. Well, I think you were talking about it earlier about elevated small luxuries. And I think that a double-double animal style fries well done in a black and white, that's, you know, you could reach culinary mouth nirvana for, you know, nine bucks as the crow flies. And in a time where nine bucks doesn't get you the bathroom key at McDonald's, you know what I mean? Totally. And we, so we have infatuation folks all over the country and in London.

36:48and what's interesting at the end of the year they kind of write different trends and themes that they're seeing and that theme of kind of like small luxuries retail therapy is so in all of the markets and I don't know Chris if you made it to corner shop 180 in London but that place opened this summer and I haven't I'm very aware of it I'm very aware of it I mean if I have to hear more about freshly churned buttermilk I don't know about you guys but that's what they're lying That's what they're lining up for. That's because they still ride horses to work. So it's kind of, I mean, it makes sense.

37:23I think that, but Corner Shop 180, which looks amazing, and was started by someone who has good, you know, she has good taste. She has a brand, you know, it's clear what you're going to get. That's also just another Erewhon-esque, or it's probably, I would say it's more comparable to Meadow Lane. It feels definitely like London's answer to Erewhon. All of these things are some places' answer to Erewhon, and they're each going to have a local flavor. And yeah, I think corner shop one 80 is great. I also just think this phenomenon of like same with, you know, the really luxury pizza and people like series, what they're charging and the complexity of like, put your name down, come back at this time, get your pie Christie's, which is one of our best new restaurants in New York, incredible pizza, you know, tell yourself a few years ago that a cheese pies, is, you know, 36 bucks or whatever.

38:16Um, it's definitely not everyone's going to cove and doing the tasting menu and getting the drink pairing, you know, the juice pairing like Chris black. But I think people want to have these luxuries in their lives. Um, and if it's a, a smaller price point, but still feels like, Oh, these are really high quality ingredients. This is a place that has a great vibe. Like people are down to spend on that. I mean, I'm like that too. Like, I mean, I like that too. Everybody likes it. I just, I just this stranglehold that has on us as a society is kind of crazy you know that like I like people that that are people are choosing to spend their money on stuff like that instead of stuff that maybe maybe seems more maybe necessary is a word I would use or uh the treat culture has gone far yeah we got Seattle for me was the peak when I was reading through all the trends and kind of things people were pointing to from the year.

39:09We got an$11 iced matcha with a dollop of banana pudding that's spooned from a glass casserole dish. To me, that's like peak matcha. Maybe we can move on to something else next. No, no, no. We shan't. On this specific subject, I was watching you on the Squawk Box last week. Let's go. Talking about some of these similar things. and talking about the elevated small luxuries and you were explaining it and the woman on there, I don't remember what her name was, but she said, so the logic is I can't afford a vacation so we'll buy an$11 matcha with banana pudding on top. And I think, is that the root of this problem?

39:51Is that why we all need a tiny little$12 treat every day on the way home from work or else our life is truly pure shit? Not to bring it down. I don't know that I'd go that far. I mean, I think definitely one thing we've seen this year. So a lot of people use infatuation as they're planning trips and they're looking around, not just for where they live, but where they're visiting. So the people that don't DM Jason, they use the infatuation. Okay, got it. I've been sending them over to your website. Come on. All right. If you're in Jason's DMs, just come to us. Sorry, guys. But we've definitely seen, you know, road trips, people wanting to go in the vicinity of where they live.

40:32maybe not the two-week kind of ischia operation, but get out, do the Pacific Coast Highway, go up to the Catskills, hit the lakes around Chicago. Like, we've definitely seen that road trip phenomenon. Lesbian Cafe Bang Bang Road Trip up in Hudson Valley. Yeah. Love that. The Ojai, like, man, what a story on Ojai. Were we talking about Ojai 10 years ago? I think so. I mean, I famously have never been to Ojai, and it's gone on long enough. And that's by choice? It's a little bit by choice. That's like you're sticking to it? Well, before, I was just like, why go there when I can go to Palm Springs?

41:12What is it exactly, I think is the question that many, many people have asked. And then as I got older, like my wife, Carolyn, who knows me very well, she was like, I've been to Ojai. You're not going to like it. Just don't bother kind of thing. and now that it's grown in popularity there's like oh now we have a new restaurant and the chef is from little doms and it's basically like we're bringing los feles to ojai and then at that point why am i even and that keeps pushing now that's pushing all the way to santa yunez yes so then with that general store and i i want to get away i want a weekend getaway where i don't run into anybody i know where i don't know the dj playing in the lobby and there isn't a pop-up from a guy that follows me on Instagram.

41:57That's why you got to go to the Republican Ritz over there in Palm Springs. You won't see anybody you know. That's the secret. That's the low-key secret. That's what I'm working on. I will say, Rory's Place is really good. I think, I'm sure you guys have done Bell's in Los Alamos. Yeah, I went to Bell's pretty recently, actually, and I liked it. The California road trip dining situation is excellent. The thing, the only reason I want to go to Harbor House Inn up there. I want to go to Ojai for the new hotel. That's the only reason I want to go there. Like, I don't, I think that, like I don't there is nothing to do Jason but I'm going to go there I'm going to feel like I just went out in Hollywood when I go there it's the same food the same people the same music the same decor but we now it's next to a mountain two hours away yeah I mean I think that not for me I don't know I want to be transformed and well Palm Springs to a whole new land we all like Palm Springs but it's also a dump like I love it and I would choose to go there every time I don't even know why like I literally don't know what I like about it You can't replace the desert energy.

42:55It's a feeling, bro. There's just something. That's how I feel about most places, though. I know pretty quick, like, this is for me or this isn't. You know, like, within 10 hours, I'm like, you know what? I never need to come here again, or I'm going to come here for the rest of my life. There's sort of no middle ground. Are you guys tennis guys? Are you tennis guys? Yeah. The Indian Wells operation, I mean, obviously, tennis now, every tournament everywhere has become a huge thing, but Indian Wells is one of the most impressive sporting events anybody's putting on. Jason, DJ. Didn't you DJ last?

43:23Was that last? Yeah, I DJed a party with Racket Magazine last year, and a lot of people thought I was Djokovic for whatever reason. I like for whatever reason. But yeah, it's an amazing operation. You know, the good people at Amex really do a good job over there. No, that's Larry Ellison. It's Ellison's brainchild. Yeah, he's got Indian Wells, and then he's got his sensei, you know, that spa resort operation that he's running out there. It's nice to be there in the middle, in a literal oasis in the middle of just empty fields, and you just see that Nobu sign, and you're like, wow, I'm home. He's run that play in Lanai also, which is even crazier.

44:04I mean, you're literally on this island with nothing, and then there's the Four Seasons and there's the Nobu. Bro, that's... Larry's home. I mean, if I had that kind of bread, that's exactly what I would do. Where do I want to go and what do I want to be there? That's it. We'll do those two things. bring the spicy tuna crispy rice to me i don't care if this place has no running water electricity um okay so we were talking about um about the the pizza and the waiting in line for all that stuff and when i when i have walked past series series how's it how's it pronounced exactly serious serious wow right when i said that my phone thought i was saying siri hey series what why are you why is your lines long anyway but whenever i walk past that line when when i walk past people in line for certain things.

44:50Line culture is very big in New York. Every weekend, there's a Reformation sale or a new boba place or rice to riches or whatever it is. Chris Black waiting for an appointment at Stofa. Yeah, that's me. I need some pants. More flowy. Can I just stand outside? Do they come in suede? You can see where I'm waiting in line for a somber album signing or whatever and you can see the level of fun because Chris and I joke around a lot about like i think people are starting like we're so fucked people want to stand in lines like they don't know what to do so the line offers them some structure in their life or whatever but when i walk past that pizza play series everyone in line looks it's looks like a methadone clinic all right jason this episode of how long gone has brought you by superpower and i don't know about you but i'm sick and damn tired of leaving the doctor's office uh feeling like I got no useful info from these bozos.

45:47You put on the white coat, you sit down, you say a bunch of stuff, but it's nothing I can use. Maybe you told me you're fine, drink more water as if I could. I'm not leaving with no real data, no game plan, just a pat on the ass. And I'm sick and tired of it. And luckily, Jason's superpower is here to fix my problems. Yeah, sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who really cares about inside of my body and all the diseases. and now you know the doctors they've been gatekeeping this info and they don't really care about me that much their head is in the game out of the game they're thinking about golf they're thinking about what they're gonna have for dinner i care i want to go through all these tests hundreds of data points here and i'm ready to go in with my my internet research and really find out what's going on with my body and how to fix it how to help it because we don't know what's going on inside of our body.

46:40We don't know how much sleep we should be getting, what supplements we need, what foods we should be avoiding. And this info is all there thanks to science and technology. So make this year the year you stop guessing about your health with Superpower. For a limited time, our listeners get$20 off to unlock their new health intelligence. Head over to superpower.com and use code howlong for$20 off your membership. That's code howlong. And after you sign up, they'll ask you how you heard about Superpower. Do us a favor if you could and tell them how long gone sent you and that'll help support the show.

47:17All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Poshmark. Jason, I know you've used the site before. It's a really easy way to shop and it's one of my favorite fashion resale marketplaces. I don't know if you're into brand names, you know? I can be depending on how I'm feeling but we can you want to talk Levi's you want to talk Blundstone or you want to talk Chrome you want to talk Prada you want to talk Mew Mew you want to talk Bottega we got it all at Poshmark and you can get the look for less as they say yeah I'm a big hunter I like going on eBay and digging around and sometimes stuff isn't there same thing with Carol and my wife she's a wardrobe stylist and she's like you know the real shit's on Poshmark for the real heads that know You can find those, you know, little grail pieces that you can't find anywhere else.

48:04Some kind of archival stuff going on. But also, you know, the day-to-day regular kind of staples like you're talking about. Some nice vintage Levi's. Tons of them over at Poshmark. And, you know, when you're ready for a closet refresh, you can earn some real money selling the pieces that you're ready to part with. Reaching more than 80 million users on the platform. I like that sound of that, Chris. Is there something that you're trying to track down on Poshmark specifically? I'm actually in the market for a new dop kit, a secondary dop kit. A backup dop. Probably LV to keep with my suite of products or maybe a Prada nylon because that's also very durable.

48:44Okay. I feel good about it because new deals and styles are listed every single day. So do not wait. Download the Poshmark app today. Use code HOWLONG when you sign up and get$10 off your first purchase. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by BetterHelp. You know, Jason, for some people, summer is their favorite season. You get to travel. The kids are out of school. Adventure is in focus. But for others, juggling it all can be quite tough and can lead to overwhelm and counting down the minutes until those pesky little rugrats are back in school. And many often worry that they're just wasting those days of beautiful sunshine.

49:23We don't want to have a problem that can only be solved by another one of those vacations. You know, we want to learn how to enjoy every day at home and away. And therapy can help people better understand that, feel more confident and set some boundaries and create a version of summer that actually feels good. Make sure you're happy. Make sure who you're traveling with or hanging out with all summer is all good too. Maybe you're related to them. Maybe they're just some co-workers or something like that. but you know you don't have to say yes to everything this summer find support in therapy sign up and get 10 off at betterhelp.com slash how long that's better h-e-l-p.com slash how long like you guys are waiting in line for arguably the best pizza available in america and you're about you're moments away from sinking your teeth into it you've got your hard-earned money you're ready to go.

50:20This is supposed to be a celebration. And everyone looks so like they don't belong there. Like I shouldn't be waiting in line. I shouldn't have to wait for food. It's all so dark, but then you see like a Boba pop up or the reformation sale. Everyone's smiling, happy, can't wait. You know, it's like when the iPhone first came out and everyone was like, you know, it's a very, that was a real sense of community. The Whitney museum, I have two kids and the Whitney museum does this like kids drawing class on Saturday mornings. And because It's like kids' naps and timing and whatever. People like to be there right at 10 when it opens.

50:52And the enthusiasm that these toddlers have at like 9.58 standing in front of the Whitney waiting for it to open is probably the energy we should all have. Like if you're going to wait online, that's the vibe that you should have. Paul, that's exactly because Equinox doesn't open until 8 on Sundays. Let me tell you something. The few, the proud that are standing outside that Equinox before the doors open, it's the same thing. It's a childlike energy of excitement. We're ready to get in there. If you know that it opens at 8, why don't you just go there after 8? Well, no, you get there. I try to time it for 8-0, you know, whatever.

51:25I get there at 7.53 because I'm walking so fast. He wants the moisturizer to himself, right? Yeah, exactly, exactly. I mean, I think— Treadmill number 12 is kind of mine, so I have to be there early. I've walked by that line a few times. I love that pizza, and I think that place is really good. I just don't—I think—we've talked about this a lot on the show, and Paul, I'm sure you have some insight on this, but sort of like how this kind of stuff affects an actual business because the people that you want to eat there can't eat there basically and it's only the people that are willing to blow two hours waiting in line and that has to be discouraging for the restaurateur or the chef because it's like obviously you're making more money so it's sick it's it's the same thing as a place where it's like we do we release 12 burgers a day yeah yeah are you subtweeting dunsmore are you subtweeting how do we feel about dunsmore's burger policy i'll say it all right no Dunsmore is the worst restaurant I've ever been to.

52:15No. Are you serious? I like the Dunsmore bar. Chris and I don't like the actual restaurant. The bar around the corner, the crowd is bad because it's a bunch of people trying to get the burger. You mean the crowd waiting for the burger? And also eating the burger. Once they're in eating, it's all bad. So are you okay with the main dining room crowd? You think there's meaningfully different crowds? I only went there once. I've eaten in Dunsmore once or twice, and I did not enjoy my experience there. There's a couple of restaurants, Paul, I won't go back to. That's one of them. I don't like the fact that it's community seating.

52:51I don't like the fact that it's beer and wine only. It's not all communal. I mean, I could sit at the hearth at the bar. We're going in January. I'm coming down in January. I'll go with you. And I'm going to sell you guys on. Why would I go there when I could? I'd literally rather go to Air One and have buffalo cauliflower. Literally. I mean, I would rather do that. It costs less. I don't have to drive 45 minutes to the end of the earth. But going back to the burger of it all part, like the bar, the Dunsmore bar around the corner, there's people who have created an interesting menu. I had some really good pickled mussels on Bub and Grandma's bread and a good cocktail or a good martini, good glass of wine.

53:29And you're surrounded by people who are waiting to get a burger, ordered a burger, finished a burger. They're all in different forms of burger eating. They're all filming themselves. some of them have i never had the burger now i feel bad i i'm a stand i'm ahead for the cornbread and they got one of the best steaks in america like no yeah the cornbread is good but it's you know to me it's a one biter you're you're eating four sticks of butter and some corn it's good but it's it's a it's a one bite i don't know i don't know how paul i don't know how you keep that nice thin wiry frame eating all this eating all the shit you're talking about you ever eat anything healthy or is it bad boy only i am i try and stay healthy at lunch i would say lunch is pretty healthy okay you keep it light there's some sashimi so genetics got it something yeah i mean so you guys are talking about though dunsmore has like they give out they make a certain amount of burgers per night and that's known so people are going there and a lot of places do that there's a spot in new york i was just reading about and they were to me like you like the food doesn't go to the people they want it to go to the food goes to the people who are willing to eat dinner at 3 30 p.m on a tuesday and just like oh i'm going to get this burger so i'm going to go wait in line for three hours to get it and eat it like the whole it's it's sold out before dinner time begins you know but let's unpack because there's a few things there like one if you have a restaurant that's popular enough to do that kind of business like you are happy because most restaurants, it's not working and it's not working.

55:03I don't think any chef is happy, but I understand what you're saying. I understand what you mean. If there's a line of people, if there's a surplus of... Yeah, of course, of course. Two... In these trying times. For sure, restaurant people, chefs, restaurateurs, they want regulars and that balance of when a place goes viral, like how do you take care of the people who want to show up to be part of a trend and how do you build regulars who might be there for you as that trend fades, I think is a very tricky balance. I think what you see a lot of places doing is having different times of the night end up with different mixes of client power.

55:39You can only get the burger at 4 and at 11.30 at night, like that kind of thing. Chris, I mean, the pizza you were talking, Chrissy's, it was like, what, after 11 p.m. at Superiority Burger is how you could get the pizza? I don't know. Chrissy's, so they came out of the gate hard with like a big line and a lot of angst about how long you have to wait. Wait, did that not start as a thing that you would get at Superiority Burger? Like, he would be there after a certain time and make the... I really thought that was the original. I think you may be right. It definitely had some pop-up incarnations along the way.

56:10Before the... Okay, I just want to make sure I'm not thinking about something else. They now, to be fair to them, they let you order online and pick your time that you want to pick up. And Chrissy's has made getting their pizza totally smooth. Is it banging? Yeah, it's really good. It's really, really good. And they've been doing some New Haven tomato pies, which have been really stunning. How far? Where is it, though? Green Point. Green Point. Okay. Wow. Okay. Wow. Edging out OG Paulie G. They're trying to get his ass out of there. They said, all right, old man. I'll go anywhere by ferry, man.

56:39I can get to you by ferry. That's actually a good policy. I want to try that, though, because I am a Zaza lover. But I think you're making a good point. If the restaurant's making that much money, everybody's got to be mostly happy. Yeah. But I mean, if I was a restaurateur, I would not be happy if I work really hard and I want the right people eating my food. The people who really like it and love it and they're friends and they're cool and blah, blah, blah. Not just people who are only eating your food to mine it for content. And people who would rather be eating it in their car on selfie cam versus with their friends having a delicious meal.

57:17Don't talk about my favorite guy, the crumble guy, who tries the new crumbles every week. He sits in his car, and he's got a big glass of milk, and he tries every cookie. Days until he kills himself, probably. You guys see People magazine top food things in America from this year. And big thanks to you guys. EatsCon right in there in the top. I think we're in the second spot. Crumble in the third or fourth spot, it hit a little different. I'm actually surprised anyone beat crumble. I feel like crumble. You and Jason did. I think there was more. I'm better than crumble. Yeah, I've never had a crumble, actually.

57:55I've only had, what's the, Levant is too, it's a scone. That's not a cookie. It's not a cookie. It's a different thing. The Levant, I love the Levant chocolate walnut. They used to make them frozen. They were better than when you get them fresh, when you make them at home. Meaning you bought the cookie frozen or you bought the dough frozen? You used to be able to buy a box of the cookies par-baked at Whole Foods in the freezer section. You put them in the oven for 10 minutes, and they came out better than when I ordered them in Manhattan. What does par-baked mean? Just like halfway, partially.

58:25Oh, I see. Oh, I see. Okay, okay, okay. The last point I'd make on lines is, and hopefully this is a place where people find infatuation and Jason's Instagram useful, is there are so many places to go. Yeah, definitely. It doesn't have to be this way, y 'all. What we're proud of is like the breadth and depth of our coverage. And we got reviews on places that nobody else has been to. We got guides to neighborhoods and cuisines that nobody else is covering. And I think hopefully one of the things people can do on infatuation and on our social and everything else is see spots they don't already know about and push out into different parts of the city, push out to different cuisines, different places.

59:04I just want shit that is a noodle pudding or something. I want shit that is neighborhood specific. That's what I like. We got it. Go like infatuation. I know. No, I know. That's what I'm saying. I think that when it's like general by city, it's like, all right, bro. Like, what the fuck am I going to do with that? Like, I'm in London. There's a fucking million restaurants and everything takes an hour to get to. I need something a little more localized, you know. Have you hit Luca? Have you hit Luca? No, I go to the same five places when I'm here. I'm all good. I'm good. I don't need to take the tube for another hour to try something else.

59:34No, Luca's in Clerkenwell. Like, you're probably sitting on top of it. I'm literally, yeah, I'm there right now. I'm actually there right now. Clerk on my well to let Luca. Okay, let's move on. We've talked about for the last couple of years in our post-COVID dining world, they'll say 6 p.m. is the new 8 p.m. in terms of a dinner reservation. And I think in the last year, six months to a year, it's turning into 4 p.m., 5 p.m. is maybe the new 6 p.m. How much of that do you think is because people kind of have no more social or don't have a social life anymore? and how much of that is, you know, we're listening to these wellness gurus saying we have to go to bed at 9 p.m.

1:00:17and we have to eat dinner four or five hours before we go to sleep. So you do the math and now we're all eating dinner at 4.30 watching an HBO show and going to bed at eight, nine o 'clock every day. Yeah, I mean, I think it's probably all of the above, right? It might be easier to get a reservation. Some people think it's healthier. You might save money with a happy hour menu yeah if you're someone who's part of return to office at a lot of big companies you might just want to grab something as you leave the office five five thirty six instead of like going home or going to the gym with chris and then heading back out um i definitely think that's one of the big shifts over the past few years in my time at infatuation is like just when people wanted to go out was always in my mind like a 7 7 30 8 o 'clock situation and then you'd have some european friends who wanted to do later and now so often if you suggest something 7 7 30 people are like oh that's a little late like can we do earlier those people are me those people are me i got eight o 'clock tonight i'm fucking i'm like but i have a snack but it's also it's not just food and eating like yeah back in the day go you would go out to a bar or a club or a party or an event and everything started at 10 p.m.

1:01:33And now, I went to a Robin concert last night. It was kind of a private event kind of thing. If it said doors at 10 p.m., I don't think anyone would have gone. You know what I mean? It's the appeal of the European wedding, by the way. I mean, Americans love a European wedding because then they get to come back and say, yeah, we were out till 7 a.m. Beethoven market, which obviously lit up Mar Vista this year and we were definitely part of that. Apologies to the neighbors. Lit up Mar Vista is something I've never heard. Mar Vista is fucked out now, bro. Good luck. You should have seen the strollers.

1:02:12Mar Vista is the Atwater Village of the West Side. The stroller parking at Beethoven Market is one of the great sites in Los Angeles. You know, I've never been. I haven't been to Beethoven yet. I've never even heard of this place. Beethoven Market, a kind of neighborhood Italian place. one of our best new restaurants in LA this year really really good and also very much a neighborhood spot that the whole city decided they had to descend on in the same like month of time and so kind of humorously became like a really hard reservation to get and there was a lot of like people just kind of waiting out on the streets and car parking it became a lot of drama in the neighborhood um but it's a great spot and they open at four o 'clock and that place is full at 4 15 4 30 i don't like anything that i don't need to try anything that bad like i don't i just don't man i just don't you can and you're a person who does not cook or even want to or know how to yeah like i haven't i just find that to be i like to try the new places of course like i like to keep up and know what's going on and it's fun and i think the experience is is you know always worth it whether you actually like the food or not you know what i'm saying that's the whole point but man there's something about like or the way people travel and they have four meals a day because they got to trial i'm like i i can't at a certain point it's got to be diminishing returns don't you just want to eat something you like at a time you want to eat it well we're in a time where we don't want to we don't eat restaurants because we like the food and or want to try it we're we're doing all we're going to four different spots or driving to a small neighborhood to get spaghetti meatballs so we can have an opinion about it when people ask us you know and i think there's something for everyone to be fair i think there's a group of people in that world and i think there's a lot of people walking into bar pity which is one of my like lifelong favorites in new york with no drama you wait a couple minutes you talk to the guys you get your rigatoni pity you have fun you're out of there in 45 minutes and you're moving on with your night.

1:04:13And there's nothing wrong with that kind of night either. No, I agree. And they have the best uniforms in the world at Bar Pity. One of the weirdest uniforms ever created for a restaurant. I always like to shout that out when I can. Some of the best side spinach also. Oh, that spinach is unbelievable. Unbelievable. One of the only edible things on the menu there. Oh, Jason, don't bring us down. He doesn't. I knew he didn't like that. I like... But also, that being said, even though I don't enjoy the food there or I'm not impressed by it or not wooed by its uh you know magic it's a restaurant that i'll gladly go to any time because it has that energy of like like not everyone can get in but there's no reservation but there's no walk-ins anyone is welcome but not everyone gets a table and it's like you know it's like going to a club and like somebody is deciding where you're gonna sit based on your vibe not necessarily if you're hot or famous but like i think you're making pity i think you're making and pity it feel a little cooler than it is but okay well let's let's do giorgio baldy as an example or chateau marmont like if you go on resi or open table it'll they'll be on there but you can't get a res but giorgio baldy better than that giorgio baldy we're phone only phone only pick up the phone and that's what i like i like that yeah i think we're going to come back to that if we haven't started already i wouldn't be surprised if people started coming back phone phone.

1:05:34AI will answer it, but yeah, it's coming back. I did a thing with Danny Meyer earlier in the year and somebody in the audience asked him like, what's one thing you don't like about restaurants right now or one thing you wish would change? And he just said, every restaurant needs a phone number and answer your phone. Like it's just become too hard to reach. And I don't want to, I remember trying to change something or adjust something and being like, oh, there's no phone number. I have to DM a restaurant and hope that it's insane. Info. Look, it's a very boomer thing to want a phone because every young person is afraid of when their phone rings you got a panic attack and texting is better.

1:06:12Totally. I just mean from a business standpoint like not even, even if it's a text just from a business standpoint not having a phone seems bad. It could be a little bit of a post-COVID thing as well where it's like oh we used to have a dining room and we used to have like employees that would clean the tables and serve you the food and blah blah blah and after COVID it's like we're a hole in a wall you give us the money you tap with your phone and we hand you a bag and you leave it's the same like if you can do that if you can live without paying somebody to answer the phones and getting the phone service and having the hours and coming in early if you can avoid that why not and the volume is a lot the borgo guys who are like real hospitality you know they want to do things the right way they had a phone number for a long time and then the volume of calls as well they just couldn't keep they were like we're gonna need like a call center yeah they were too early yeah they're gonna they're gonna need a mcnally call center for one restaurant not six or whatever i mean i i just i yeah i don't i know it is boomer shit but at a certain point like it also makes things easier for the customer and this is the hospitality business yeah i mean when i'm late for horses because carolyn forgot her eye drops i love texting the inanimate phone number in my messages and saying like oh yo we're late i need to get eye drops and then the hostess on her ipad writes back i have eye drops if you guys want them you know like yeah i kind of like that if you get a human on the other end versus press one for yes press two for no kind of thing and people should know you can reply to those texts when you get the like you're due at horses in one hour that is a human being on the other side if you reply and i like fucking with them i say maybe i'll be there maybe i won't i never respond to those texts because they text too goddamn much and I know the restaurants can control that shit.

1:07:57It's like a politician. Too damn high. It's like a politician trying to get money for their campaign the way they texted me. Dude, I was so happy when the election was over just to stop getting those texts. I get enough robocalls as it is, but the texting from the reservation stuff is like, I get your due in an hour. Anything else, I don't want. I don't need to confirm. What about, hey, press one to confirm. No, because I made the reservation because I'm going to go. If I want to cancel the reservation, I will get in touch with you to cancel it. That's my, I mean, I guess people, I guess. Well, Keith would tell you that not everybody.

1:08:30I think if everyone believes, yeah, yeah. It wouldn't be a problem if everyone was like you, Chris. If I'm five minutes late, I'll call. Like, I don't like that. I don't like playing games. I understand that it's important. Of course he's not single, ladies. A guy like that who calls five minutes. Oh, man. Okay, let's talk. By the way, OpenTable's app also lets you message with restaurants, which is a cool feature. I'm going to slide in Cafe Clooney's DMs and be like, What's that omelet do, though? Just like on Spotify, that's how you creep. I pulled a bitch off OpenTable. I saw a hostess last night.

1:09:01I just, what's her name? Well, you got her at? Just send her a photo that you took of her, this you. That's actually really funny, but I wanted to, because OpenTable is making a real play, I know, in the space, and I kind of appreciate it's old school. I like that it's the first mover, and they're trying to come for Rezzy in seven rooms. It's like Patreon coming back, coming for SubStyle. It's nice to see a comeback story. You know, it's nice to see a comeback story. I always appreciated that certain restaurants stayed on OpenTable. Even when the draw of Rezzy was strong, they were able to resist.

1:09:36And I think that it's, I just don't know what the, it seems like a brand thing. Like, the offering is basically the same. Just follow the money, you know? One of them is Amex, one of them is Chase, right? OpenTable's had a really good year. they've moved a lot of really hot restaurants over they switched a lot of people back they also are a much larger platform so they have like 60 000 restaurants on open table and i don't know you know chris is obviously just back from the florida coast um but when you look at the geographic coverage that open table has it's it's enormous and yeah we've enjoyed partnering with chase and open table to infuse the infatuation editorial so we have this program where we have held tables at some of our favorite infatuation restaurants around the country.

1:10:23And then Sapphire Reserve customers now get a$300 annual dining credit at those restaurants. So that's been a fun program that we've worked a lot on this year. And definitely, I think it's good for diners and good for restaurateurs to have a lot of competition in the reservation space. Yeah, I mean, I think that's probably true. I like that. I just like that OpenTable, to me, I only go to OpenTable.com in a browser and Resi is like an app in my mind. You know what I'm saying? even though OpenTable, you could definitely use the app and I have it on my phone. I think I like it. Interesting. I like it because I can type it into my fucking box like a boomer and make a table, get a reservation.

1:11:00Some websites are for your computer and some are for your phone. It's like the way I won't buy a flight on my phone. It just feels wrong. Like using the OpenTable app is only if I'm in a pinch. I like going to the website. I'm not putting my credit card information on my phone. Are you fucking crazy? What if somebody steals it? Delta takes Apple Pay, guys. No, I know all the laptops. I know people love doing this. It makes life easier. But I'm in front of a computer all fucking day. So does it make life easier? I don't know. I don't know if it does. I get that. And I also am in front of the computer all day.

1:11:31When I look at infatuation usage, and obviously this isn't a profound insight, but it is amazing that people are just on their phones all day. Yeah, I agree. The split of mobile to desktop and the journey that's been on over a decade, it really is that every digital experience to anyone's building. You just have to be building for iPhone. More people are watching films on the smallest screen they own versus their largest screen. I just don't. It must just be an age thing. I just like to use a computer if I can. Okay, let's talk about this infatuation list, though. I know the New York number one restaurant Chris has been to, Smithereens, yeah?

1:12:10Oh, really? It's number one? Go off. I like Smithereens a lot. Some of the best music I've ever heard in a restaurant. And I'm sure you guys have been to Haas and Bridges. Yes, yes. Bridges just got a Michelin star, huh? Bridges, kind of man of the hour. And we got Bong, we got Chrissy's Pizza, Borgo, which we talked about earlier. I need to go. I've only been there for an event. I need to go there. It was really nice. I was wondering, I was like, how long till we name check Lauren Sherman's book party? No, that's not why I went there. I went there for a GQ Canale dinner. So I ate there. It just wasn't, I didn't, I didn't.

1:12:42I'll tell you though, the mileage Borgo got out of that book party, really, like it's an amazing restaurant it's done great on its own merits but also that book party really helped borgo come out of the gate um danny and coops which is the bradley bro you ain't putting bradley cooper sandwich on there are you out of your fucking mind it's go have that sandwich man it is really good bradley cooper tells me exactly what plastic surgery he's had done i'll go have a philly cheesesteak in the east village at his restaurant i've heard it is actually good i believe I mean, he just paid somebody who's really good to be his part.

1:13:15And it's New York. It wouldn't be on the list if it was in Philadelphia because people would burn the infatuation offices down. But in New York, not known as a place where you can get a real Philly cheesesteak, we're going to have to eat Bradley's, right? And speaking of lines, it's amazing that people feel obligated to wear Eagles merch when they go to Nashville. I don't know where people are finding these jerseys, these hats, But people are dressing for an Eagles game. I bet Bradley Cooper. I wonder what that line. I feel like he's gotten a lot of women to eat cheesesteaks that had never really considered that before on a Saturday afternoon.

1:13:52Man, dressing up in Eagles gear to go wait in line to eat a sandwich in New York does feel Disney adult to me. Very. In a derogatory way. Yeah, Best New Restaurants. Best New Restaurants is our big kind of campaign at the end of the year where we celebrate our favorite restaurants. Our team goes out to over 5 ,000 restaurants a year, both new and places we're returning to, dine anonymously, pay for it ourselves, and we're always really happy at the end of the year to celebrate some of our favorites. And we send trophies out. What other cities do we cover here? Dude, we're everywhere, man. All the major cities do a Best New Restaurant list.

1:14:31Okay, I got you. We're not going to talk about the other secondary and tertiary markets, just LA and New York. Jason's working on our Ojai Best New Restaurant list. We'll have that next year. I'll do it. Yeah, I would love to do an Infatuation Glendale, California Best of list. What is number one in LA? I know you disagree with it, so let's just go ahead. Well, the number, is it Somni? Yeah. Somni? I have not been to Somni. It's like a Spanish fine dining spot in WeHo, you know, fussy, expensive. I heard it's good, but it's not really the type of shit that I want to go to. Baby Bistro's right in there at number two for kind of the Jason route.

1:15:06Yeah, yeah, yeah. Baby Bistro in at number two. We're checking all the boxes. Which is a good, it's a very good meal, but a little more for a challenging advanced palate, I think. Where are you on River? Did you go there this year? I'm not, I have eaten at River. Not a fan. Is that the former Mountain? Yes. These motherfuckers love nature. It's not, it's not mountain. It's, ooh, ooh. Sure, they left the vowels out. These motherfuckers hate a vowel. I know that every single person loves river. For me, if it was a neighborhood spot and I could walk there, I would consider it, you know, go get a highball, go get a frosty Japanese beer.

1:15:43The beer was probably my favorite thing there, but the small veggie plates he excels at. But like the Japanese cookery by a bunch of tatted up white guys with ponytails and longboard skateboards. I'd rather just go eat at the thousand other Japanese restaurants in L.A. made by real Japanese. I think you're also you're very geographically driven. I mean, I'm getting a strong... You want to stay close. No, no, no. I love to travel for food, and I will, but River, it just doesn't do it for me. I mean, when I'm like... This is a Japanese izakaya spot. I'm going to get the izakaya. And I'm, you know...

1:16:19Whenever I go to a restaurant and I think of 10 places that do this dish better for half the price, I'm instantly out. Now, where are you... Can I get your Mustard's Bagel versus Courage Bagel? I haven't been to Mustard's because I would never go to Culver City. Hold on. that you're saying dj mustard up in a bagel place i didn't know no one people like mustard's bagels uh by the way he just said i will never go to culver city nobody's going to unless there's a check on the other end why would you ever go to i don't make enough money i don't make enough money where are you taking your apple and hbo meetings jason zoom but mustard so mustard's is coming for the courage crown is that what the streets are saying mustard's is our one of our best in restaurants in LA this year.

1:17:00And look, the bagel wars all over the country are unbelievable. I mean, we talked a little about pizza and how pizza has now become a nationwide thing. And bagels, obviously, courage played a big role in that. But bagels are everywhere also. And definitely the mustards versus courage conversation has been robust. You know what happened to me? Let me tell you guys a little bagel story real quick before we end here. Alex and I were in, we went to Bergdorf and we wanted to get a fucking bagel. And I looked on my phone and Pops Bagels was around the corner. I'm like, all right, I've never been to Pops Bagels.

1:17:33I've heard of it. I go there. There's a line. I'm like, all right, fuck it. We're here. I'll wait for a few minutes. And then I notice they just give you, there's no seating inside, and they give you a bag of bagels and a tub of cream cheese, and you're meant to go make do with that. And that's when I went to a regular New York bagelry that we found and had a normal bagel because this shit's got to stop. It's gone too far. Like, just give me a fucking bagel. I don't need to have, I don't need. I don't need to be good. I just want a slice. They say no. I don't have time for that. Do you ever hit Bagel Bobs?

1:18:04No. I'm saying that bagels and pizza are always good. It's a level. It's a level. Bagel Bob's on University. Oh, I know that place. I do know that place. To me, that's the perfect bagel place. You walk in there. They are moving at a speed that nobody's ever moved at. In terms of like from your order to you getting that bag is like 12 seconds. and it was toasted and spread in that time. They got the little paper carton of Tropicana that I didn't even know anyone else was selling. I would rather go to... Apollo is probably my favorite, but there's a place called Heaven's Hot Bagel on 4th and B, or Houston and B, that's like a shithole that really...

1:18:42I've spent a lot of time there, so I got to say I respect it. But like the tiny affordable luxuries, I think the bagel space has really... A thing that we should all... we were all spending$2 on for our entire lives. Now, you know, we can get a$30 bagel depending on how pretty it is and how expensive the toppings are. You know, Mark Bittman did it to us. Bit by the bit by the bit, man. So what's, what's up with mustard? What, uh, sell me on it. Why? I mean, I know courage bagel very well. It's a specific type of bagel. It's a little more thin and crunchy and crispy, put the butter on it. It's really good.

1:19:19Really nice tomatoes. It's when people say this is not necessarily a bagel, but it's really fucking good. So open face for sure. For me as a Din Tai Fung had the Nori everything bagel which has like cucumbers and chili crisp and is inspired by the Din Tai Fung cucumber salad is just like a cool thing to see. Hell no. So Din Tai Fung cucumber salad. Crispy sourdough. On top of the bagel. Jason I think we have to try this. I think we have to try this. This is too freaky to not get our little mouths on. We'll deliver them from Culver City out to Shea Jason. Yeah, bring them to Shea Jason. We'll bring them Sunset Tower for Chris and Shea Jason.

1:20:02What does the cucumber bagel run for over at Mustard's? Because people come for courage a lot for being really overpriced for a bagel. What does Mustard's run for? I don't know. I got to check that for you. But once again, Jason, what does overpriced mean? You know what I mean? It's like, I agree. I think if someone is willing to pay the price, then it's not overpriced. and that goes across the board. As a value proposition, when I hear, you know, this is an heirloom tomato from the Santa Monica farmer's market and this is lox that was cured from this and sustainably pole-caught blah, blah. Sure, sure, sure.

1:20:34Then you're like, okay, I see the value to what I'm paying for. When I see this is 12 cents worth of flour. The moment someone says Harry's Berries. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm just like, I know I'm in for 30 bucks. But when I hear cucumber, you know, I know how much a cucumber costs and it's not expensive. Hey, that's not true. That's not true. I'm sure we can find it. English? Organic English? We could find an expensive cucumber if we looked. They're Persian. I'm sure it's a Persian cucumber and I know that it costs 30 cents and I know that they're using 10 cents worth of chili oil and they're not necessarily creating alchemy but maybe they are.

1:21:05I'll give it a try. Give it a try. Alright Paul, thank you for joining us. The list, the Infatuation Best Restaurants is up now everywhere you look at lists. And thank you guys for doing It's Done. It was a fun tour this year. Our pleasure dude. It was super fun. We can't wait to do it next year. Miami we really enjoyed having you Allison Roman in LA Allison Roman in New York Cape Verlant in LA and Joe Fresh Goods in Chicago it was a great time our three queens I forgot about Chicago I had that life altering nut mix Jason do you remember that? yeah it was spicy salty sweet like I happened to see it it was like the one place that didn't have a crazy line and it had nice packaging and Jason got me one and I was like this is fucking banging this is it I think it was like one of the oyster seafood kind of spots yeah it was like an oyster yeah it was delicious it was really delicious alright Paul look thanks for joining us and we'll see you soon bye

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