879. - Olivia Nuzzi

6:51Jason Stewart:If the VisVim ankle booty fits. That's true.

6:55Olivia Nuzzi:That's fair.

6:57Jason Stewart:Last night, I had a King's dinner with Chloe Wise, Eric Warham, and Carolyn. We hit Osteria Moza. Shout out to the Osteria fam. Had a little chili LA pasta.

7:12Olivia Nuzzi:I love that restaurant.

7:13Jason Stewart:Of course, Eric had to splash out on the wine list. Unfortunately, I didn't really get a chance to really enjoy that$750 bottle the way I wanted to.

7:23Olivia Nuzzi:Well, did fucking Steakhouse Man pay for the wine, or did you have to split it after splashing around a little bit in your mouth?

7:29Jason Stewart:Well, he's not Steakhouse Man this month. This month is Super Bowl commercial, man.

7:35Olivia Nuzzi:Oh, so he had the$7.50 to spend is what you're saying. He had a light$7.50.

7:40Jason Stewart:He said, I got it. He said, I'll handle the down payment, and y 'all can get the monthly.

7:46Olivia Nuzzi:Because usually, he's always paying for Chloe's dinner, but if Jason gets a little piece, then you know things are looking good. Then you know we're flush right now.

7:53Jason Stewart:Yeah, I really need to get into the – If anyone out there wants me to direct and concept a Super Bowl commercial for your brand, just let me know. I've got nothing but ideas. No way to execute them, but I would say I have a great team, but I don't.

8:06Olivia Nuzzi:I have zero track, zero team. In fact, this is sounding worse as I describe it, but just get in touch if you're interested. We'll figure it out from there.

8:14Jason Stewart:Look, the pros and cons of being an idea man, you know what I mean?

8:18Olivia Nuzzi:That's so funny. A$750 bottle of wine feels a little too LeBron for my taste, but God bless.

8:24Jason Stewart:It was a 13 Barolo. It was exquisite with the beef cheek.

8:30Olivia Nuzzi:13? Not even that old, bro.

8:32Jason Stewart:When he said it's a 2013, I said, Okay. But it is 12 years old.

8:38Olivia Nuzzi:I don't want the block party Barolo, bro. I want some fucking... We're shipping on the block party.

8:44Jason Stewart:Eee. Eee.

8:46Olivia Nuzzi:I want some shit that makes... Not the block party Barolo. Oh, hell no. Oh, God. That's funny. Well, I'm glad. Okay, that sounds good. Moza's one of my personal, I don't go there enough, but I think about it pretty often. Oh, you know what I'm doing tonight, actually? Hitting the newly resurrected Bobbo. Oh, wow. Which I've heard is great, even though Batali's up in Massachusetts fucking growing carrots or whatever. This is where we're at.

9:13Jason Stewart:It's better for Batali to be in Connecticut with the Swiss chard instead of saying behind as he's grabbing your behind.

9:23Olivia Nuzzi:behind means something different when he says it that's that's for fucking sure that's for sure oh uh before we talk to our guest this is going to come out after i get after hanover has launched so i wanted to mention it um hanover-usa.com is the website okay that's about it that's about it really but we're having a party on friday this is a brand i've been working on for a couple years and I'm really glad for it to be out into the world.

9:50Jason Stewart:Thoughtful American Essentials coming soon. That's us. I'm going to enter my email address right here. It says enter using password. I don't have access to that one yet.

9:59Olivia Nuzzi:Unfortunately, the website isn't quite ready yet, but thank you for giving this little preview. Oh, of course. But we got a polo. We got a polo shirt for you. I think you're going to like the thickness.

10:08Jason Stewart:Pools. Okay. I mean, I'm always on the hunt for a polo. I know. I literally know you are. Right now, my top is 2013 Uniqlo. It has to be a certain age range.

10:20Olivia Nuzzi:Those are a little too short for me in the actual scheme of things, but I like the way they fit. That's my only issue with those, historically.

10:27Jason Stewart:They are a little short, especially for me as having a longer body than you. But I'm looking forward to it. I'm really curious to try the Jound one as well. We'll see what happens. Did you order yet? No. Those Canadian duties, you know, it's tough. I didn't even think about my hoodie tariffs. that's what that's what we're making tariffs downstairs now hoodie tariffs it's time for softball yeah um our speaking of softball our guest today olivia newsy i haven't heard of her what does she do she uh i've really heard much about her reporter who lost her job at new york magazine over a relationship with our robert f kennedy jr returns with a memoir light on gossip and reckoning says the uh what is this from i forgot it's from a major publication but yeah she wrote a book it's called american canto i know her from her musical career as livy her song jailbait was very was was on my myspace page for a long time of course i'm just interested

11:28Olivia Nuzzi:i'm just interested to ask her why she's doing this at all when you say this uh how long gone or anything like How Long Gone because I feel like this is a situation where maybe the press has kind of done the press for you, I guess I would say, in some ways. But that's not for me to decide, obviously. She has some of the best in the business working for her, so I'm sure there's a strategy involved. But needless to say, I was surprised to get this email.

11:54Jason Stewart:Are you fishing for compliments because you got the call from a real PR agency? No, no, no. You like it when you get the crisis PR email, don't you?

12:03Olivia Nuzzi:start licking your little chops of course I do but I was still surprised the whole thing I was just like oh this is interesting and it's happening fast as they say

12:12Jason Stewart:you go talk to our good friend Tim at the bulwark if you want to discuss politics and things like that and timelines and VP noms you come to How Long Gone if you want to sell some books honey we're going to talk about fucking Erewhon and Lana Del Rey for the next hour and four minutes

12:30Olivia Nuzzi:this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from the Guardian, Stateside with Kai and Carter. This is covering a lot of our bases, Jason. It's trying to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world. And I know you particularly have quite a lot of questions.

12:47Jason Stewart:A lot of questions, but how often? Because we do this podcast three times a week and that's a sweet spot. How many times do they do?

12:53Olivia Nuzzi:Three times a week. And I have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe going to be covering different stuff than we do. That's just a guess.

13:02Jason Stewart:The Guardian is not some billionaire-owned platform. They're not afraid to say what they want to say, brother.

13:08Olivia Nuzzi:Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in what journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at Stateside. But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch it on YouTube. It's three times a week. And who couldn't use more news? You know, especially when it's not, you know, from here, let's say. Give it a listen. Give it a listen. get out your fucking wallet it's time to talk about rocket money baby i'm trying to save some money i was talking to a friend of the show bryn walner yesterday and she was she was saying if you if you look at your subscriptions you could be living like me that's what she was saying she's saying if you use rocket money to find out which subscriptions you were uh paying for without your knowledge um then maybe you could be in you know in switzerland like me you could be in geneva you

13:51Jason Stewart:could be f1 yeah it does make sense i think it really boils down to you know everyone knows it but they just don't have the time. They don't want to do it. Everyone knows they can go clean all the clothes out of their closet, sell them, and then take that money and buy a dream vacation or a trip to Geneva or a new Rolex. But you just don't do it. You don't have the time. It's too much work. Luckily, nowadays, places like Rocket Money do it all for you. They're happy to do it for you. So then all that money that you're saving, we can turn that into truly whatever it is that you want. Just make sure that you're not just taking all that money and resubscribing to the same services that you didn't use before, okay?

14:28Olivia Nuzzi:I've never done anything like that. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. Let Rocket Money help you reach your financial goals faster. Join at rocketmoney.com slash howlong. That's rocketmoney.com slash howlong. One more time, rocketmoney.com slash howlong.

14:50Jason Stewart:Are you at home right now, Olivia? Yeah. We're in the boo. Yeah, I live in Malibu. Okay. Do you plan on ever leaving? Are you going to stay there for a while? Yeah, I think I'll stay for a while. I like it here. There are more lizards than people. More lizards than lizard people? I bet you the rate of lizard people in Malibu is pretty high.

15:16Olivia Nuzzi:Lizard people ratio in Malibu is quite high. But they wear crumb hearts, so it's hard to tell which ones are which. Yeah, I don't know what's up with that place. there's always like a line by Chrome Hearts and I'm just line averse in general but I don't know I don't know what the fuss is all about. Well I can tell you a little bit about it. Depending on how much your book advance is you could go get something in there. You know what I mean? It's not cheap unfortunately but the lines are very real. The demand is high. Yeah I'm not terribly interested.

15:50Jason Stewart:They're opening a Chrome Hearts hotel hell in Malibu. Have you heard about this? Do you read it in the local gazette? No, the Malibu Times. I haven't seen it there. Are you a proud subscriber of the Malibu Times, Olivia? I don't know if they have subscriptions, but I do follow their coverage. I love a hyper-local media market. I think that's always really interesting. I started out writing for an all-weekly in New Jersey where I'm from. And I love alt-weeklies and all that.

16:27Olivia Nuzzi:I miss alt-weeklies too. I grew up in Atlanta and creative loafing was a big part of my eye-opening. The alt-weekly I wrote for is actually, it's still running. It's called the Tri-City News. And it's run by this amazing character, this guy, Dan Jacobson, who is an assemblyman in the New Jersey legislature. And I always used to love writing something. I was a teenager and I was writing there. And then people, if I went out in town at all, people would come up and argue with me. And I thought that was the most exciting thing in the world to be argued with about my dumb opinions. Well, luckily, you're in a great position then now.

17:07Olivia Nuzzi:Because all anybody wants to do is fucking argue about what you're going to say. So it's come full circle. Well, it's funny, though. It's like, actually, they want to argue about things that I haven't said that other people have said. Sure. I guess that's a good point. That changes the narrative a little bit. Yeah, it seems very irrelevant, actually, what I have actually said. Sure. Okay, so what is your level of consumption right now? Are you staying offline? Are you logged? Can you not help yourself? What is your level of self-control?

17:36Jason Stewart:Is your phone bricked? Flip phone? We got a Trump flip? A Trump flip. He got rid of the flip phone a long time ago, Trump, actually. But he did have it, I think, pretty close to the 2016 election.

17:49Olivia Nuzzi:he was still um he was late that's late that's late so he was still i know it's super late uh but he got an iphone um he got an iphone in the period after the 2020 election um he went with purple i like the purple one he's evolving all the time he's becoming a smarter animal his well he's got to use those those bruised hands to order mcdonald's on doordash you know Oh, my God. I wonder if he knows about that, about, like, delivery apps. Gordash. Yeah. I mean, I'm going to say that most presidents don't know. I mean, maybe once they're in the private sector, but I feel like you're not allowed to do stuff like that.

18:29Olivia Nuzzi:I think Caviar would blow his mind if he knew that you could do that. You're saying I can get sugar fish to the White House? um but i you know very little consumption of of that stuff it's pretty easy to avoid it in my experience anyway and um but also doesn't it doesn't like crush me if i if i do see something and i i think it's pretty interesting and i on balance on balance i'm like more curious about you know devastated by it but do you have okay but have you always had the stomach for this in your line of work or do you think it's something you've developed over time i think some people are just wired that way um when i was much younger because i started like i became a public facing person in the media really young i think i was like 20 and um i guess it was like a conditioning over over this you know 11 year period um to get to the point where i can kind and just like look at something awful or unfair or uncharitable that someone said and just be like huh like that's interesting and and not be um crushed by it and frankly like oftentimes people have a really interesting perspective even if they're not being nice about it um well that's that's big of you because they you know they call me all kinds of shit and i'm i'm saying once they start calling me names i'm out i don't care what you got to say but even the names are interesting because it's like i um what do we got hold on what do we got what are they calling you that let's let's rank them oh let's let's rank let's rank we'll weigh in on how good or bad we

20:10Jason Stewart:think they are yeah name some uncharitable names you've been called no they're not i wouldn't say that they're particularly creative like we're not dealing with uh with wordsmiths over here but um But it's interesting to fully appreciate the nature of the hatred and where it's coming from and what it looks like from different people and their different vantage points. And it just doesn't devastate me. And as it relates to the more just misogynistic stuff, it just feels like I'm kind of like an avatar in a very old story. You know, it doesn't feel about me so much as it feels it's about like this tribal, ancient war that will always be being waged as long as man walks the earth, right?

21:00That's right. Man. You used the right word there.

21:02Olivia Nuzzi:Man. We're walking. I meant the human being. We're walking. Oh, my bad. My bad. My bad. Oh, my bad. But I, you know, it doesn't feel personal, that stuff. And even a lot of it that's like violating doesn't feel personal either. And I think it's because so much of it, it's like a reaction to a kind of, once you've been like squished into a character or a caricature and like, you know, pulled apart and utilized for different people, for different things narratively or different arguments, you become like this kind of malleable putty that people can utilize in a culture war. And it does cease to be about the individual, right?

21:46Because the individual doesn't really factor in.

21:49Olivia Nuzzi:But do you think, I guess, though, what I'm noticing about this situation, and I follow it relatively closely just because it's sort of my job. My condolences? Well, don't worry. Yeah, I'm praying for myself, too. He made his bed. I guess, yeah, yeah. I was born this way. I guess what I'm saying is it feels like there's people that are really on, like, an ethical high horse that maybe are reaching in some ways. Like, I think that there's, I don't know. I feel like some of it is a little bit of like moral panic in some ways. And there's other things you can be upset about, but they're choosing to focus on something that's a little more salacious.

22:27Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because like I, you know, I wrote this book, American Canto, and I knew a couple of things were evident to me way before it was coming out. The first is just that I knew the second that I kind of poked my head up from this exile that I was in, that I would probably be met by some madman charging at me with an axe. And I also knew that there would be efforts to shout over me. And I figured it would be pretty loud, even though I didn't know exactly what the shouting would endeavor to communicate.

23:02Olivia Nuzzi:Well, luckily it's just your ex on Substack, so you've got to pay for that. You know what I'm saying? Could be a lot worse. Yeah, but it has really successfully infected sort of perception in a broad way that it has these reverberations where it just it informs people's thinking about me, about my book. And it has it's been interesting to observe that. But do you think it will sell more books, which is obviously good for you? You know, I really wasn't concerned with that from the outset. Like if I was, I would have I would have written a very different book. Right. Like the book that I wrote is not a very commercial book.

23:44Right. It's about this period of of distortion and and reality warping in America over this 10 year period of Donald Trump's rise to dominance. And my my personal story and my fuck up factor into that. Right.

24:00Olivia Nuzzi:Yeah. But that's the only part anybody cares about, because that's the fun part. I guess I'd have a more optimistic view of, you know, everybody or anybody or the word you just used. Right. I think that people who participate in online mob discourse are are not the same thing as people generally. Well, I think no, I think that's true. Those are two different kinds of people. I completely agree with you on that. You know, I think I think smart people generally are not very loud on the Internet. And so how dare you? and i oh i always write with you know kind of thinking about the smartest person in the room and to me that's like the most curious person the most open-minded person the person most uh interested in nuance so i'm not um you know i'm not trying to appease the people who would participate in a mob but i also knew that there'd be on the left like a lot of dissatisfaction with me that I didn't come out trying to destroy the person I refer to in the book as the politician.

24:59Um, and that my refusal to like be angry and, um, out for some sort of revenge would get me Chris criticized a lot.

25:08Olivia Nuzzi:Well, he's like, he's doing it to himself. He doesn't need your help, but is the, is the, um, is the choice to say the politician yours? Was that, was that pressure from the publisher for legal reasons? No, I mean, there was no, um, I, everyone in the book and most companies are referred to, um, not by name. And to me, that was just kind of when it occurred to me, it just felt right. And so I didn't spend too much time.

25:31Jason Stewart:Cause you're Olivia is a down ass chick. That's why she rides, but I didn't think, um, for me, it was really about like removing this story that I wrote from the immediate discourse.

25:45Olivia Nuzzi:So you're saying by redacting the names of these people and corporations, it makes the story more timeless. I guess so. Yeah, because I didn't I find it I found it distracting. You know, I wanted to remove it from kind of regular reportage, if that makes sense. So like it felt to me like I'd written this profile of a Washington Republican unnamed when I was at New York Magazine. And it was my favorite piece that I ever did because it was so much more about his psychology and about how he was strategizing to kind of climb and survive in Donald Trump's Washington. And it made it more universal, I guess, and less about him, the individual.

26:31And people were able to focus on his philosophy and his morality and on what he actually said, because they weren't distracted by him and his identity. And I really liked that. And I and that the Washington Republican actually is in this book at a certain point talking about reincarnation and and his views about karma and his nihilism. but um damn i didn't know republicans believed in karma that's big

27:02Olivia Nuzzi:they definitely believe in nihilism that's true all right fair enough one of one of three is not

27:07Jason Stewart:that makes sense you're able to show here are the characters in this the way i see them versus the way that you have already projected in your mind yeah i guess so i mean but i never i i knew that people were going to know who yeah it ain't a secret it ain't a secret of them were yeah it really wasn't it wasn't about that but um it just it was I guess it was just a literary choice um and it um it felt correct to me and um most of the book was sort of like that like just what felt like the right thing I didn't question too hard you know what is what is the measure of success

27:43Olivia Nuzzi:for this book for you just getting it off your chest is it sales is it like what comes next like How are you judging this? Or is it merely just...

27:51Jason Stewart:Who is the young Reese Witherspoon who will play you on the Hulu series, etc., etc.? That is racist against blondes, first of all. But I take really seriously that the most valuable commodity in the world is our attention, right? And to ask anyone to take any time out of their one life, unless you're the washington republican you believe in reincarnation which you've got a few

28:21Olivia Nuzzi:but uh i'm on three i'm on three right now don't test me i i take that super seriously and i just didn't want to put anything out in the world that felt like um it was a be it might go and my fear um and wasn't going to be of use to anybody else and i'm happy with what the book is and i i kind And I was pretty clear while I was working on it that there could be a chance that the immediate discourse and culture would just basically say, no, get the fuck out of here. The second I came back, right? I didn't care. Ryan Murphy's circling the wagons. Ryan Murphy's circling the wagons, no matter what you do.

29:06I didn't care. I thought, well, a very good outcome for me would be if in 10, 20, 30 years this book was considered valuable. Like it's really a letter from a time and place. And like I had this strange vantage point in the last 10 years being in Washington with Trump a lot and being affected by his rise to power.

29:29Olivia Nuzzi:Are you have you weaned off of sort of the access to information that you had? Because I imagine it's not quite the same as it was a year ago, two years ago. I need another hit of information. I mean, I feel like if my phone was constantly buzzing with news and information I really wanted from the industry that I worked in, I would be pretty addicted to that feeling. And it's a good feeling. And if that stops, I wonder how that feels. I'm a news junkie. I was really interested in characters. And what's amazing about politics. Sure. But those exist in every industry. You know what I mean? Yeah, they do, but not the same way because the stakes in politics are enormous, right?

30:14And that's the kind of drama and adrenaline of that ensemble and plot is all related to those stakes in a way that doesn't really exist in the same way, at least immediately, in other industries. And so, like, a great character, to me, wants something. Mm-hmm. right? And in politics, people really, really want things. And their whole life is about trying to get what they want. And that is like an engine for a character's arc. And it's really interesting. You learn a lot about people that way. So to me, it was about kind of observing it that way. And I like politics, and I like knowing about government, and I'm interested in it.

31:02But But it was sort of like more in service to understanding the human condition as it hurts of Washington.

31:07Jason Stewart:You love characters. You love characters so much that you're willing to talk to politicians. Yeah. Like how many more fat white guys in ties can make a decision?

31:16Olivia Nuzzi:You know, I get it.

31:17Jason Stewart:I think it's cool. I mean, and you liking characters so much is sort of your example of wanting something the way a politician would want them. You know, like you said in the book, speaking the language of the monster. You have to worry about becoming the monster yourself. Are we on track? What's our monster timeline looking like right now, Olivia? I don't know. What do you guys think? I feel like you're moving in the right direction. Yeah. Thank you. No, no, no. I think you're at a crossroads, much like Brittany, but I think that you can go the Brittany route or you can go the Lana route. You know what I mean?

31:55Jason Stewart:I know those are likely two North Stars for you. Yeah. I would never shake my head. But I mean What we've done to Britney As a society I think about a lot She's in the book a bit actually

32:10Olivia Nuzzi:Let's talk about that for a second Because I think that Obviously the Free Britney movement is powerful and loud But I do think She needs help, right? I just have empathy for her I just hope she's alright I have empathy for her We all do

32:27Jason Stewart:But do you have a hardline plan about what we're going to do about her conservatorship. Yeah. Have you devoted hours in the bathtub to this?

32:37Olivia Nuzzi:Why does her son have a$200 ,000 Mercedes? Is he taking advantage of her? I find all of it just so gross and invasive. But don't you think that that's what gross and invasive is sort of what our society is built on in some ways? It is true. Whether they're talking about you or they're talking about a politician or they're talking about Britney Spears, that is unfortunately what makes the world go round. Yeah, but I guess I think that you can shift its rotation by just not meeting everyone on that level and talking about other stuff. I would like to think that. I think you are right in a blue sky scenario.

33:12Olivia Nuzzi:I wonder if society is too far gone from that at this point to ever go back or make a turn for the better direction. I'm an optimist generally against all common sense and history.

33:26Jason Stewart:maybe a natural disaster will bring us together or something like that you know who knows well i don't know i just really i believe in the power of the individual um and systems are just made up of individuals so i i don't know i i i'm not in such a bad state about it are you oh wait are you are you smoking weed how do you get like this no i don't i don't smoke weed you don't smoke weed

33:47Olivia Nuzzi:are you drinking a lot at least i don't drink okay so are you sober she is drugs not in the sense that like I got sober or something um like I'm not opposed to the idea that like if someone one day offers me a drink I might have it I just don't like um okay and I was very aware of the fact that like I felt like all right during this kind of like rapturous period of my life and I didn't want to um affect my chemistry um in any way that might make it so that I didn't feel all right? You know? So you were raw, so you're raw dogging this whole time. Um, I, you know, it's been interesting.

34:24Jason Stewart:Well, I mean, you could say sex, sexting is a drug. It's all been really, yeah. I mean, you, you could, I'm, I'm off the stuff as well, but like, I, I, I just,

34:34Olivia Nuzzi:How many days you got? How many days you got? She's going to meetings down there at Sun Life. Sun Life is so interesting. It's like, Don't look at the calories, sweetheart. Do not look the calories i you know i try not to drink cold beverages because they like it goes against everything we know from like eastern medicine about your chi fucks up okay you're you're too this is i'm starting to i'm looking for some cracks here you're too you're a little too calm for me if i'm being honest you really zen the fuck out do you want me to cry no i don't want

35:05Jason Stewart:you to cry we we maybe maybe when uh how do you like to feel out of control that's an interesting

35:11Olivia Nuzzi:question what like like if you could feel out of so i i like using drugs and alcohol to feel out of control oh i like for example um i like adrenaline like i like um pushing things to the limit pushing things to the limit maybe i like speeding i like speeding i like skydiving i yeah i like um okay skydiving sky driving's a red flag so that's good i'm glad you finally fucking blessed us with one. Can you drive a stick? I really want to learn because I really want a 65 Mustang. So I need to learn how to drive a stick. But I would love in another life I'd be a stunt driver. Well, some might say you're driving the stunt course right now.

35:58Olivia Nuzzi:You know what I mean?

36:00Jason Stewart:On a podcast. I'm sure there's some people who are listening right now who would love to bring the Mustang up over and teach you in the Gelson's parking lot, how to work that gearbox. Okay. Yeah, I'm kind of like antisocial, but. Yeah, I was going to ask.

36:17Olivia Nuzzi:I was going to ask, who are you kicking it? Who are you kicking it with? And are weird dudes from your past beyond the one with the substack coming out of the woodwork trying to give you the future text? Like all this gossip has made me think maybe I messed, you know, that kind of thing. You know, it's like I was in a relationship with one person for 12 years. And, you know, obviously there was. It didn't end super well. It didn't end super well. It ended badly, I think you could say. The one thing all parties are in agreement on is that it ended badly.

36:47Jason Stewart:Am I going to have to pay you$5 a month to hear more? Or are you going to let me? Look, everyone's first 12-year relationship, it always ends like that. So don't beat yourself up. Look, if it doesn't end with you going to the FBI, it wasn't a bad breakup. That's my new standard. Yeah, yeah. If he doesn't call you a CIA informant, it ain't worth it. You know what I mean? it wasn't really love you know yeah well i've been called worse okay well speaking of that uh what do you what does the phrase joan midian mean to you oh is that what uh is being that's funny it's pretty i have to say i you know as far as well you you mentioned earlier about like reading the criticism and stuff and sometimes you can like learn things and it's interesting and or you can appreciate it it's pretty good i think that's pretty good i also someone said i saw joan didion on adderall which made me laugh uh but you know it's funny it's like what we've got like one our references for female writers or uh could i knew

37:47Olivia Nuzzi:you i knew you were gonna turn this into gender shit very smart very smart so are you i mean the

37:53Jason Stewart:subject matter drive driving around la by the beach in the mustang it's funny though because It's just like, I don't think if I'm too Italian American, there's no, um, you're not waspy

38:06Olivia Nuzzi:enough for this. No. I mean, like I, I respect her obviously. Um, but I, I respect wasps too. I totally get it. Yeah. I don't, I don't get it. And what I, the fact that I don't get it is what I respect about it, but I just, you know, it's not, um, in terms of like pro style or, um, sort of the spirit, um, of, of the work. I think it's quite different, but you can only have so many references, I suppose. Yeah. I mean, well, it's also, you got to remember, it's got to be a reference that's sort of enough for people to understand. We can't get deep into the female literati and expect Twitter to understand that.

38:44Are you still calling it Twitter?

38:45Olivia Nuzzi:Oh, I'm never calling it X. Fuck that. And that's not even, that's not, I just, you can't just do that. You know what I'm saying? You can't just change. It's like, I've had friends do this where it's like, I grow up with them and their name is Jake and then all of a sudden they turn 26 and they're like, I'm actually Jacob now. I'm not. Nah, bro. You're Jake. And that's fine if you want to move forward professionally and with new people they call you that, but I ain't going back. Same thing with Twitter.

39:07Jason Stewart:I'm not calling you Christopher. I'm not calling Steve, Steven. It's just how it goes.

39:11Olivia Nuzzi:Yeah, my mom calls me Christopher, but

39:13Jason Stewart:what is your, are you on Twitter? Yeah, tell me about your Twitter algorithm and we'll tell you about ours.

39:21Olivia Nuzzi:This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Squarespace, the dope OG place to build a website so that all of your fans, friends, foes, aunts, uncles, and cousins can check out what you're doing on the World Wide Web. Jason, we spend all day crawling the web, and you see some sites that are shitty. They don't work that well, and you see some sites that are amazing and work great. And my guess is those are made on Squarespace.

39:45Jason Stewart:Yeah, all the good ones are definitely from Squarespace. And also, no better place to secure that clever little dream domain. You know, everyone has that domain name where it is just perfect. It just has to be get clever with it, have fun with it and easily acquire it through Squarespace. And also, even if you don't have that website ready, or your idea ready, claim that URL invest in your dream. And then you know, just sit on it. Maybe one day you could sell it for even more money. And we also have cutting edge blueprint AI tools to basically use an entire library of professionally designed award-winning website templates that you can then tweak and customize exactly how you want it to.

40:28Jason Stewart:So people won't even know that you use that sneaky little AI.

40:32Olivia Nuzzi:Oh, God damn it. All right. So head to squarespace.com slash how long for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code how long to save 10 % off your first purchase of a website or domain. Hi, Talk House Network listeners. It's your old friend, Nels Klein, from Wilco here. Wilco is touring this summer, and we'd love to see you somewhere on the road. We're playing shows this June and July in Rochester Hills, Michigan, Chautauqua, New York, Lafayette, New York, Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, Vienna, Virginia, Forest Hills, New York, Portland, Maine, Tulsa, Oklahoma, Memphis, Tennessee, LaGrange, Georgia, Charleston, South Carolina, Virginia Beach, Virginia, Wheeling, West Virginia, and Columbus, Ohio.

41:16Olivia Nuzzi:Plus, there are even more dates, some with Willie Nelson that I didn't even mention here. So please go to wilkoworld.net to see the full list of dates. We'll see you on the road this summer. Oh, I don't look at it all that much. On Instagram, my algorithm is beautiful. It's It's really pictures of baby deer, videos of actual human babies getting glasses for the first time, and they get really excited, and they can see. There's a lot of that. And they're like girls with eating disorders from Sweden. Okay, now we're talking about my algorithm. Hold one second. The diagrams have finally crossed.

41:59And then a lot of stand-up, because I love comedy. and a lot of Norm Macdonald archival well it's all archival I suppose at this point

42:12Jason Stewart:nobody greater it's all archival at this point I guess but it's pretty it's lovely in there

42:21Olivia Nuzzi:your algorithm doesn't sound that fucked up but you didn't answer my question are people coming out of the woodwork are people trying to kind of what I was saying is I was in this one relationship for most of my adult life. So there's not that much history. I bet there's some new, but there's probably some new suitors out there kicking the tires. Yeah, are you ready to trust again, Olivia? Yeah. No, but I do think I probably need a conservatorship. I want to get you, no, I think we need to get you on The Bachelorette. I think that could be, this could be Love is Blind, Bachelorette, you know, one of those.

42:59Olivia Nuzzi:I think that could be good for you. You like them older, You like them older, so maybe Golden Bachelor. Golden Bachelor. That's a joke. That's where The Bachelor is like 60. That's where it's all salt, no pepper. But he's pretty hot. He's pretty hot. Don't get me wrong, but he's just a little bit older, more established. You can still get it up. I think I'm good. I think I need some. You good for now? I think I'm all set for now. Yeah.

43:25Jason Stewart:You know what? How about this? Try this on for size. No, thank you. Not me. Whatever it is. Thank you. Okay. I'm an admirer of Lana Del Rey, and I see a lot of you in her. Oh, thank you. What about a swamp daddy for you? I'm happy for her. I love her. I think she's such a good writer. And really just understands the zeitgeist and has developed so impressively as a writer throughout her career. And I really admire her. and I'm happy for her.

44:02Olivia Nuzzi:But you ain't trying to eat dinner at 7-Eleven.

44:04Jason Stewart:You just want to listen to the music. No, I would never do that. But there's a Malibu version of Swamp Daddy, though, that could be a little blue collar. He's got enough money, but he's not filthy rich, worked with his hands. I'm really not interested in anything such as that right now. Have you ever hung out with Lana Del Rey? Or at least has it gone down in the DMs? No? No, no. That's actually surprising.

44:29Olivia Nuzzi:That's going to happen, I would say, in the next two to three months.

44:32Jason Stewart:Of all the people that reached out, I would have thought Lana would be one of them. Oh, well, why would you think that? I just feel like you guys are some kindred spirits. Oh, that's nice.

44:43Olivia Nuzzi:I also feel like people like her are actually, part of the reason they're so good at their job and so tapped into the zeitgeist is because they actually pay attention to what's going on culturally in a way that I think we think they don't because they're so removed from reality. Yeah, maybe. I don't know. I also just think she's just such a skilled chronicler of her human experience and her emotional experience. And I think it's difficult to do that. And I really am impressed by the way that she pulls it off in more and more interesting ways over time.

45:21Jason Stewart:She's dropping canto after canto, isn't she? Wow. Oh, beautiful. Let's go back to the blonde really quick. You said that you could potentially argue that Donald Trump is the first blonde president of all time. You've got to ignore. Yeah, you've got to just disqualify Gerald Ford. We always do. And I always do as well. So I and you kind of have to you have to have a strict definition of blonde. But I think you can make an argument. Oh, absolutely. Most photos of Ford are kind of black and whitey, so it's hard to tell, right? Or at least sort of 70s style. But you said...

46:04Olivia Nuzzi:No, they're not. What?

46:06Jason Stewart:They're sepia-toned. They're rich with sepia colors. And you said, which is why? When do you think he was president? He was in the 70s, right? Yeah. No, there's a lot of color imagery of Gerald Ford. I pulled up the Google images. It's 50-50 black and white in color. All right, fine. No shade. And then you said, I don't remember exactly, but you said, and Trump's blondness was why he's been able to successfully capitalize on his victimhood. Is that what you said exactly? I don't remember the word for word. Oh, I guess I was writing about this Alfred Hitchcock quote that blondes make the best victims.

46:51And I think he said some paraphrasing, but it's sort of like virgin snow on which you can see bloody footprints. And it's sort of this part of the book that's about victimization and the aesthetics of victimization. You know, so much of Donald Trump's political career since he first started running in 2015 for office has been about his martyrdom. right um and and sort of um imposing his sense of martyrdom on his his base of supporters right a frequent refrain in the last election was he would say they're not coming after me uh they're coming after you and i'm just standing in their way that's good stuff right there yeah it was sort of a you know a bit of a joke about um his blondeness being a part of it but um his sense victimization is profound you know yeah it's which is a very difficult skill it requires

47:52Jason Stewart:i guess that that level of blonde ambition to be like you know what i'm a i'm an awful criminal billionaire and i'm gonna get you to feel bad for me and i'm gonna let you i'm gonna paint myself as a victim which seems like a difficult thing to do yeah i mean from the very beginning with him um you know i always go back and i i watch the announcement speech when he you know came down on the escalator and said that Mexico was sending rapists over the border and everyone focused on that. But the big picture speech, the sort of pitch to the American public was that you all are getting ripped off. And I know that you're getting ripped off because I'm one of the people who has benefited from the system that has ripped you off.

48:36And basically every cop needs a criminal. and uh i i know how fucked up this is because it's helped me and so i'm gonna go in there and like fuck it up on your behalf and it it really resonated with people and he's been you know it's changed over time but not that much he's been making sort of a version of that argument

48:55Jason Stewart:for the last 10 years he's robin hooding the system from the inside he's he's like anonymous but for getting uh people of color out of the country i guess yeah it's um i mean the The retribution and the kind of homicidal ethos has intruded a lot, and it's taken over depending on what's happening in his life or in the news. But that general idea of this is an unfair place, and it's benefited me that it is unfair, but I know the ins and outs of the unfairness. And so I'm your guy to help make it unfair for you. in a way that benefits you. Like when a startup hires an ex-hacker to unhack, you know what I mean?

49:45Jason Stewart:Or a casino hires an ex-gambling cheater or something like that to do it. That's what Trump's doing. Every cop needs a criminal. Every cop needs a criminal. That's a great Lana song title right there. It's the Rolling Stones. They're cool too. Love those guys. I didn't know that. Chris, did you know that? No. What song? I think it's symphony for the devil oh damn I believe you we're sleeping on you I feel like you've got a lot more musical knowledge in there than we uh than we realize I know that you're a big I just love the stones okay I just really love the stones um but I just love classic rock in general okay um speaking of Trump you you describe um sort of in detail when you had a phone conversation with him and in the in the book you sort of write out each letter sound and syllable how he was talking but then in the audio version of the book you you chose not to do you didn't know how to do it yeah i you choose i mean i was listening to it yesterday i was like i wonder if she had a conversation or had a thought process of like do i dictate the dictation or do i actually do the voice so i guess this is your chance do you can you do a trump impression um what i did I don't know if it worked exactly, but I tried to sort of hear strange syntax, right?

51:12It's really a spirit more than it's a sound to his voice, if that makes sense. So I just tried to reflect something of his attitude or intonation, but not do an actual impression. But those were, frankly, the most fun parts of the book to record were doing his dialogue. Because it's just, his usage of the English language is singular.

51:43Olivia Nuzzi:He's a master. He's a master.

51:44Jason Stewart:Some would say he's a master. Singular is a better word for it. Well, it's just, it's highly unusual. I don't know if there's anyone else who utilizes words in the way that he does and like the particular rhythm of it. This is the thing about stand-up. I love comedy, and a lot of my writing, since I started writing, is probably informed even more than I realize by comedy, by Carlin or Pryor or even Letterman. And I'm so interested in sort of Trump the performer and Trump the, in some ways, writer, right? Like he's someone who comes up with phrases and names for things. And, you know, he's like the most successful cyber bully of all time.

52:34And I'm fascinated by that.

52:38Olivia Nuzzi:Calling the president a cyber bully is cool because it's true. It's so true, right? Like it's just, he cyber bullied his way to the stars, man. Like he is just, he.

52:52Jason Stewart:Do you think at this, do you think at this point in his life, at his advanced age and, you know, dementia level, he's still spinning the plates. He's still saying everything off the top of his head. It's not as good as it was, you know, 10 years ago, but he's still saying some amazing shit. But at a certain point, are the drugs that they're pumping him up with going to give out and he's going to no longer be able to go off script and he'll have to just go kind of where he's just reading the teleprompter? Well, one of the funny things with him with the teleprompter, though, is like oftentimes if there's a teleprompter at an event like in the Garden at the White House or even at a rally or something, you'll look over the screen and the text will be paused.

53:39It won't be scrolling. and it's because he's gone off script but I always wondered if if there was um if maybe he was dyslexic or something or had some sort of um processing um delay and him going off script was you know sometimes when he would read the words it sounded like he was genuinely reading them for the first time like there was a tone of surprise like uh you know they're saying oh they're saying

54:04Jason Stewart:this like as if and right like when a podcaster does an ad read for better help it's you could you could hear it in their voice that they're not this was not thought out before or premeditated whatsoever yeah i mean do you want to do one that's an amazing transition for you to do your ad for better health i do agree just give us go pay some bills one second just one second but um i i so that could just be an utter lack of preparedness which which would make sense or it could be that he's processing and sort of going off script in service of giving himself a moment to collect the words on the teleprompter.

54:42I don't know.

54:43Jason Stewart:I think that he's floating on a level above the written word. I think reading only slows him down, much like a Lil Wayne or something like that, where he's on a different plane of thought. Many people have compared those two. Not the first. I won't be the last. No, how could you avoid that? History will position them side by side, I think. So that means you're not going to give us a Trump impression, which is totally fine. I don't want to pressure you too hard. No, I don't think anyone would like that. Your heart's not in it, so I understand. No, my heart's elsewhere. You've said you're an admirer of the comedic greats and stand-up, And I know that you probably fancy yourself an enjoyer of interviewers and interviews.

55:34Jason Stewart:Letterman, you know, one of the greats of all time. Do you have an all-time favorite interview or interviewers? Oh, yeah. I mean, Stern, Cavett. Charlie Rose was sort of not a good interviewer, but the format, I think, was just so good. and it's sort of like Larry King, like the ways that Larry King was not a good interviewer were also what made him, to my mind anyway amazing like he just would blurt out the question that occurred to him, you know, it might be really pedestrian or really a non sequitur and I always felt like that kept it exciting but yeah, I just really love Howard Stern really love Dick Cavett.

56:20There's an amazing archive of Dick Cavett interviews.

56:24Olivia Nuzzi:Are those on YouTube? Yeah, mostly, I think.

56:28Jason Stewart:I'm sure, yeah. You can watch Dick Cavett show on Tubi. There we go. Is it really on Tubi? That's what Google says. That's what Google says. I believe that. I watch old Carson interviews and it's so interesting what late night used to be. and I love Letterman current day Letterman an incredible interviewer but I love watching

56:58Olivia Nuzzi:Letterman interviews from the late night show Are you doing any TV for this book? I don't know what I'm doing I'm not making decisions on that Smart, wow you let go and let God Yeah, I'm detached from the outcome

57:15Jason Stewart:Are there any modern interviewers podcasts perhaps that you are listening to or do you stay out of that mess i you know i listen to a lot of audiobooks um i don't i don't listen to a ton of podcasts but um you know i i love joe rogan i love um talk easy and i love megan mccain i think she's a great great interviewer um but mostly i listen to audiobooks and like if i'm gonna spend time listening to something i'd rather it be something a little bit more considered um sure use your time wisely you only have one life and you're not going to waste it on you're on number you're number three i'm on this is my third yeah this is my third so does that mean when you're listening to rogan you skip the ones about mma and uh bow hunting and you go straight to the interesting shit or do you listen to all of them i think that's interesting well i think that's the interesting shit no you like the mma companion episodes where they really get down into what happened in the third round it depends like i like for instance like his there's an interview with miley cyrus that's like one that's a great one i've heard that one it's great excellent like her ability to synthesize her experience and to be so self-aware right yeah you're so practiced in narrativizing your life right and like you're constantly being asked to do so um you could either kind of disassociate and become like pretty detached and talk about yourself uh as if it's like this kind of separate entity the separate character or you could like go electric like she has right and you're fully present fully in your experience and able to talk about it um in in a way that makes sense and it's human but um and you know i just i was so impressed by by that um but you've got to get on someone's wavelength to interview them and that way right like being probably his style had as much to do with the success of that um as as her ability to um synthesize her experience did um so i thought that was pretty remarkable i love rick rubin's um i guess i just think he he provides that's a that's a bridge too far but i think he just provides a lot of space like he doesn't intrude well that's his that's his whole one could argue Yeah, he does.

59:35Jason Stewart:Only provide space. But it's an effective technique, right? It's like if you go, you sit down with a shrink, and the shrink kind of, you're in that contest to see who speaks first. And, you know, sometimes it yields, I think, really interesting disclosures. The oldest trick in the book, ice them out.

59:54Olivia Nuzzi:It's an ice off. Ice them out. So what is your plan moving forward? Do we think this Vanity Fair thing's going to stick? How do you feel about it? I mean I'm West Coast editor of Valley Fair you should check out our Hollywood issue which is I've got it in front of me

1:00:10Jason Stewart:don't worry I was like I can't believe she's juggling this scandal this book and the VF Hollywood issue with ASAP Rocky wearing socks on the beach how does she do it isn't that a beautiful photo I love the photos I love

1:00:22Olivia Nuzzi:the pictures I mean I think the best thing I saw was like why are there no women and I was like do you guys not know that they've done this for like 30 years this way that's just kind of like it was that was one of the biggest responses it's the 32nd um annual hollywood issue and um there's a lot of really really good stuff in there what stories did you work on um i worked on a bunch i um an excerpt from the book is in there um and and along with a painting by isabel brauerman that's actually at our basil today um at a jeffrey deitch's show there um And it's called The Great American Nude, the show.

1:01:01And I worked on the spirit book, Cassie David and her Fonz in Hollywood. And Julie Wiener and her kind of bicoastal, sartorial existence. Otessa Moshve, the cover story about Hollywood's new crop of male movie stars. Vera Papasova on biohacking and the obsession with purifying your blood. There are a ton of great stories in there.

1:01:36Jason Stewart:It's all great West Coast content right here. Yeah. Shout out to our friend of the show, Kazzy David and her Fonz.

1:01:43Olivia Nuzzi:No, I mean, look, I hope it all works out. And I think you have a very, you have a great attitude, I have to say. And I don't know if I would be in the same position. someone's gotta have good attitude it ain't us that's for fucking sure

1:02:00Jason Stewart:it ain't us last question we always put a song at the end of each episode if I don't add jailbait what Lana song or Britney song should I use or Miley Miley Malibu's in the contention who knows hmm Hmm.

1:02:25Lana, heroin.

1:02:27Jason Stewart:Okay.

1:02:28Olivia Nuzzi:Bravo. All right. I was hoping you were going to go ketamine, but heroin's fine.

1:02:33Jason Stewart:Okay. Later. Maybe later. Maybe later. For the third act. Okay. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us. We appreciate it. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

1:02:43Olivia Nuzzi:Of course. We appreciate it. We'll see you soon. Ciao. Okay. Bye.

1:02:58Baby

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