904. - Converge

8:58Jason Stewart:Deny everything. Take it to the grave. There's always a way to wiggle out. When you got Zach Bryan coming out and saying,

9:05Jacob Bannon:you guys are losers for doing this, I just think it was really, it sort of felt like a, not an ending, but it was really a distinct chapter in this whole saga, I would say.

9:16Jason Stewart:They had hired actors in the audience. People think it was not actually a live stream because they couldn't get the technology. They just recorded it a few days earlier in Florida. They got ratings mogged by the puppy bowl. The list goes on. Also, I just want to say.

9:34Jacob Bannon:Sorry, I said the M word. I'm going to put a dollar in the jar. It's okay. Put a dollar. That's actually a good idea. We have a mogged jar. But I think that there's also something to be said. I think, look, wearing shorts on stage is very controversial. uh and i i i say if you're on warp tour it's allowed who are you jacob bannon i say if you're allowed you're allowed to wear shorts on stage if you're on warp tour other yeah other situations i think unless it's 100 degrees in a parking lot in scottsdale if you're touching the stage you got to wear pants and kid rock i know that he's like you said he's used to being on a boat um more of a pontoon than a yacht let's not go barry diller mode but i i think that there's something to be said about his choice i feel like his choice to wear shorts says everything we need

10:18Jason Stewart:to know about that show well i have so i have some thoughts on his legwear because he was wearing the uh the white sketchers slip-ons which are okay which are you know so the slip-ons the sketchers shoes they have a lot of influencers working for him kid rock martha stewart snoop dog you know kind of the oh also um the mom from modern family julia julie i think is her name no no no the latina sofia vergada oh sofia vierga manny what are my sketches so do not bring manny up on this podcast god damn it don't let me mansplain season season four episode of 17 mansplain how much time you got bro they got a lot of okay so i'm wondering kid is like i don't i can't find a way to make these shoes pop and get my little Skechers check.

11:10Jason Stewart:I don't know what to do with the hemline. Do I roll the... It's a hard shoe to pair with a pant, so he decided fuck it. This thing is over anyway. They're playing on the Titanic while it's going down. I might as well wear a rash guard while I'm at it. You know what I mean? Why put on my tops and tails when this thing is just dead on arrival?

11:32Jacob Bannon:Tops and tails. Imagine what Kid Rock... I wonder where Kid Rock would get a tuxedo from. because i feel like there's there's like a third place we don't know that's barn that's not the mall that's not boot barn that's not men's warehouse there's something else there's like

11:47Jason Stewart:another he goes to like a old like now and later gator like old black guy atelier somewhere that's probably right i mean i guess he used to back when he was welcomed in the community and now they don't let him know kid rock is not welcome to the cookout hood hood pass revoked for the kid

12:02Jacob Bannon:uh no it was a great it was a really bad football game from what i understand and Drake did lose$1 million and Bad Bunny did wear Zara. So there was a lot of weird stuff happening, don't get me wrong, but I thought that overall, that was the only real deal.

12:17Jason Stewart:Bunny got a million, Drake lost a million.

12:21Jacob Bannon:I don't think Bunny got a million. I bet Bunny's record label came out of pocket on that one. I bet it is bad. Yeah, I mean,

12:27Jason Stewart:the Bunny breaks even, but with the Zara deal, push him over the line.

12:33Jacob Bannon:This is just my speculation. I also liked that that people online thought that his jersey was for AOC, not his last name, like his uncle's last name. His own last name. Like, you guys are really stupid. It's really getting unbelievable out there, the lines, the parallels that they are trying to draw.

12:49Jason Stewart:When you're like, there's no way that they'll think this. Oh, okay. Like, when you're watching. They've done it again. Like, hey, don't go out there. It's a giant minefield. There's signs everywhere. Oh, man, he's going out there, and he stepped on a mine. Okay, well, didn't think that was going to happen.

13:03Jacob Bannon:Wow, but there's still people out there who are going to do that. I didn't think it was going to go down like that. All right. We do have a guest today, Jason. A legend, really, in the game. Jacob Bannon, the singer from Converge, a band that Jason and I have both been listening to since we were in middle school. They have a new album out that is getting rave reviews, actually. I saw a Pitchfork review today. It was like a seven-point something. Let's go. Love is not enough. He also owns the Death Wish record label. He's an artist. He does it all. Still straight edge, I believe. as well. So let's go to the depths of Massachusetts and get into it here with Jacob.

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17:18Chris Black:Right now, I am running a print job on two machines as I sit here. I'm going to get 600 prints out before the end of the day, which I will not do, but I'll do my best to hit that. I have six interviews today, this being one of them. I have social posts to do. I have artwork deadlines that I need to meet. And I have two newsletters to write for tomorrow. Two? and that is before i check email so that's where we're at okay all right all right so all right so

17:52Jacob Bannon:you just all right you just shit on us and i understand you're busier than we are and we

17:56Chris Black:deserve that but the question is no i'm not i'm not shitting i'm simply just i'm simply just say you know i'm stating i'm not shitting jickems venting i prefer to um i'm curious as to what other people's days look like and what is an acceptable sort of amount of you know activity

18:18Jason Stewart:for them i would say that your your rundown of your activities today seems like it's an overload on your palate even for somebody who doesn't use drugs and alcohol i would say that's too much stuff for one day and maybe for the album cycle press run part of your life we get an assistant Maybe use AI, something to think about. You have some help, I'm sure, right?

18:40Jacob Bannon:No. All right, so you're in this alone.

18:45Chris Black:So at the label here, I have two wonderful employees that are here full-time that are running the warehouse. I'm the third.

18:54Jason Stewart:Okay, so you have six interviews today. Obviously, it's not always this busy. You're not always the week where you're releasing an album. But do you like the fact that it's 2026 and you're doing all of your interviews over Zoom and we get to hang out and have fun and then they clip it and put it on Instagram versus like we're going to talk and then I'm going to Xerox it and then it's going to come out in four months and that's about it kind of thing?

19:18Chris Black:No, I don't think about it that way. You know, communication changes. You know, if I was like a Luddite, I would probably have like a preferred way of, you know, sort of communicating with people. But, you know, it's just communication. It is what it is.

19:32Jason Stewart:Well, I guess more so as we shift away from let's talk to the artist about the art and the process and the this. And nowadays, because of social media and everything is on video and blah, blah, blah. For the clippability, we only really want to know about your personality. And if we could find a soundbite of 45 seconds where you're telling an epic story and that's about it versus sort of the older style interviews about what is this song about.

20:00Chris Black:I don't see any difference between the things that you just mentioned. They're all just sort of... Sure.

20:07Jacob Bannon:They all go into the same slot bucket for you.

20:09Chris Black:Well, it's not a slot bucket for me. It's just...

20:14Jason Stewart:It's a yummy bucket.

20:16Chris Black:No. You guys ask me questions and I answer them. I know. I know. Pretty simple. I don't want to waste your time or my time. I just want to communicate clearly. That's my only dog in the fight.

20:33Jacob Bannon:I think it has changed considerably, but I think you're probably right.

20:37Chris Black:Yeah, I mean, the questions that you're sort of asking don't really apply to an artist as much as they apply to other journalists. This is something that you guys should probably have a conversation with, almost like a media roundtable with people that are in your world. Just like talking to musicians is interesting. the way that you guys or whoever, however they define themselves, are navigating those waters trying to figure out what works best for their form of journalist. So it's just a different thing.

21:10Jacob Bannon:But what's your intake level, I guess, then, on the other side of things as far as digesting whatever media you choose to digest as a consumer?

21:19Chris Black:Just like podcasts I listen to?

21:23Jacob Bannon:Yeah, no. I mean more just in a general sense navigating the world. Like, you know, where are you getting your news? Where are you getting your memes? Where are you getting, you know, whatever, the things that entertain you.

21:32Chris Black:Your media intake at large. Sure. Well, I don't waste my time with things that are just decoration. There's always simply too much to do for me. Like you mentioned memes. Like I've never participated in a meme.

21:51Jacob Bannon:I have. You know what, man? That's brave and I am jealous.

21:56Chris Black:as well well i mean i know number one i feel that people's efforts should be valued even if i don't agree with them you know on their takes and so like oftentimes i feel like that things like that are usually created to sort of affect people in a negative way that are just taking something out of context like that oftentimes and i don't see any use for that in in my life you know like as

22:23Jason Stewart:person sure okay do you i think i think people might use a use a little throwaway jokey funny meme you know as a way to let a little little steam out let a little air out of the balloon of the the day-to-day monotony that we're all suffering from but you might get that out in

22:42Chris Black:other ways is what you're saying no i'm not saying that i'm saying exactly what i said i'm saying that as a okay well then can i ask you how you get it out well let me just finish my thought as a human being i feel that things look like that oftentimes just do a disservice you know they just create more noise you know and i'm not really here to do that you know i spend you know my time and effort you know trying to promote art and music in a way that i feel is like ethically and sort of morally in line with myself as a punk rock person. And, you know, like that doesn't leave room for a lot of bullshit, you know?

23:29Like as much as I, yeah, I make jokes.

23:32Chris Black:Everyone makes jokes as senses of humor. We all do lots of things to entertain ourselves, but I don't do it. sacrifice another individual to do that. I think that's one of the biggest problems with the internet and the biggest problems with the way people communicate with each other now, where just because something isn't your ultimate favorite anything, it still deserves to exist. It doesn't need to be paid. It doesn't need to be anything. Because I respect the work that people are putting into their efforts that they're putting

24:09Jacob Bannon:an effort i'm trying to get i'm trying to get better at myself when you realize that sort of you know not everything is for you but it still took a lot of effort for someone and you can

24:18Chris Black:leave it at that well i think it's really important to know that like nothing's made

24:22Jacob Bannon:i mean that's real talk i mean that's real talk you're because you're basically saying they're making it for them and if you happen to enjoy it that's that's good but that's not the point

24:30Chris Black:absolutely and so like a lot especially when it comes to like art and music sort of criticism and journalism, most of it that I see becomes so much about the eye and not about the artist. Definitely. And I don't care about the reviewer. I care about the art. As much as I'm a fan of writers and artists and musicians, the creative space and the opinion space when it comes to music journalism, especially now in the modern age, as you said, things are memefied, I think are created to be, for lack of better terminology, clickbaity, as you said before, I think that was.

25:11Jacob Bannon:Yeah.

25:12Chris Black:Clippable. Clippable. There you go. Same difference. Same difference, right? Well, the motivation is totally different. The motivation is to generate ad revenue through these clicks, and it's not to discover the artist or hear about what it took to make the art and hear the journey of that person, whoever that person being myself or countless others um because that's what people want to want to engage with they don't want to necessarily engage with the opinions of people who are just sitting there you know chattering you could do that without it being behind a paywall or being

25:52Jason Stewart:advertised to well i think as as the the modern age of interview and and clickbait and all that stuff is going on i see two divides where there is maybe a show like ours that's a little more chat based and personality based and can go off on odd tangents and we don't necessarily always talk about the art and the process etc and then there's the you know the film nerd podcast i'm going to interview and we're going to get really granule and talk about it or the music nerd podcast i want to know about what type of cable you are connecting your pedals with and how far the mic is from the amp and it doesn't you know this engineer in this place i totally hear what

26:28Chris Black:you're saying i'm not trying to like be wholly disagreeable but like i want you to be none of that sounds like when you even when it's when it's called uh someone's called a nerd in that why is why is like interest in fanaticism i mean i don't think that's i don't think i think that's

26:46Jacob Bannon:a pretty general term that people use i don't think it's necessarily negative i think in 2026

26:50Jason Stewart:nerd doesn't hold really derogatory terminology the way it used to when we were, you know, the jocks versus the nerds kind of thing. I think nerd is something that people would call themselves with pride potentially.

27:02Chris Black:Sometimes.

27:03Jason Stewart:But I see what you're saying. Sometimes, not always.

27:05Chris Black:But like, aren't there many other words that could be described? Enthusiast. Connoisseur. Fan. Connoisseur.

27:13Jacob Bannon:Connoisseur, I would say, is top of the heap for me as far as that goes. Junkie. I'm a Java junkie. You like coffee, right?

27:19Chris Black:You say that to somebody who struggles with opiates and you might have a different take. Come on, Bannon. Come on. I'm just, I am right. I am right.

27:31Jacob Bannon:To be fair, as a person who is addicted to opiates, I don't take offense to Java Junkie. But I know that someone could.

27:39Chris Black:We're flipping with a lot of things until they matter to somebody that we care about.

27:44Jacob Bannon:That is true. I mean, that's definitely true. That's definitely true. Of course, when something hits home, it changes things.

27:49Chris Black:I know. And like, I'm a punk rock person. Like, you know, I care about the world. I care about people around me. Like, I don't want, I don't want to put out a bunch of nonsense in the world and energy in the world that's going to affect people in a way that like, because there's people, you know, you realize like, there's people that are, that are creative folks that most creative folks are quite fragile. And it's not because they're weak in any way. If anything, they're some of the bravest people in the world that are putting their thoughts and their feelings out there in the world. So when people are kind of like flippant or like sort of dismissive about like what that takes to be that person and to do those things and the effort that it takes, it sort of sucks, especially in the punk rock world.

28:37Chris Black:you know and i know that i come from a punk rock world that's generationally different than a lot of the the sort of casual listeners in music these days but like shit matters you know and i you know i want to try to be i'm never going to be perfect but okay well what do you what do you think about

28:55Jason Stewart:people who may be at a disadvantage whatever that may be and they also have a you know a dark sense of humor and that's how they deal with whatever they have going on and they might welcome that form of dark humor as something cathartic to them well as long as humor is wonderful as long as it's

29:14Chris Black:not at the expense of other people and you know a lot of shit is well i was about to ask i was

29:19Jacob Bannon:trying to think of an example of something that i've you know i guess sometimes stand-up is more observational let's say but i think that you're probably right i would say most humor is at the expense of someone else whether it's well-intentioned or not it's like that's the point and it's and

29:34Chris Black:the if you are sensitive to it then you're just sensitive and you shouldn't be that sensitive it's like well okay that's 100 but like that that works for like you know like a person chilling out in a comedy club you know who makes a decision to sort of be there sure yeah they paid to be there

29:53Jacob Bannon:Yeah, sure. That's different than passively ingesting.

29:57Chris Black:Right. But we passively ingest nearly all media now. So what does that tell you about communication and the weight of what we're saying?

30:07Jacob Bannon:I mean, I think I'm desensitized to almost everything from the amount of media that I take in, passively or on purpose, is the reality.

30:15Chris Black:You're probably not desensitized because it's just not happening to you. In what sense is it not happening to me? The voyeuristic aspect of media and the way we interact with devices to take in media now. I feel that if those things weren't affecting, it would be, I know we just made that junkie joke, and everybody can make jokes, say whatever, but that's someone dying on the street.

30:44Jacob Bannon:Of course, I understand that. But I think there's also a thing where if you've gone through something, you've earned the right to joke about it however you want. Yeah, I agree with that. That's how I feel about it. And I think that like, sure, some people may not like it, but I don't give a shit what they think because I actually dealt with it.

31:00Chris Black:Yeah, but then if you have the, I'm just saying, if you get a person on the other side of that, that's in the throes of some of the most pain moments of their lives, and you say something, flip it and say, hey, I've gone through it. What you're feeling doesn't matter because my feelings matter more. What I'm saying is you're doing it from a place of your own personal observation. You're not doing it from a place of empathy for others. And I think that's where things can get kind of hairy. You can get yourself into some pickles. Yeah, yeah.

31:27Jason Stewart:We're going to learn today, Chris. I feel it happening.

31:30Jacob Bannon:I don't think we're living in it. I think that empathy is sort of, obviously it's a great quality to possess, but I think it's not rewarded. And I think it's also been deeply deprioritized to the point where it can be negative, I think. But I think you could get stepped on and maybe your life doesn't go the direction you want if you're thinking about others too much.

31:50Chris Black:Yeah, I mean, none of us are out there serving everybody all the time because we simply can't. But anyway, this is probably not the stuff that you want to sit and talk about. So I'll leave you be. but um these sort of subjects are like just very real and i feel that like oftentimes we just kind of like joke and be zany and like you know there's there's real shit going on in the world and like you know like yeah we look for escapes from it and stuff i get it but like i don't know maybe we do that too much maybe if we look at our hours and our phone and it's oh you're definitely right about that yeah you're definitely right about that we're definitely i think i'm right i think i'm right about all of it.

32:27Chris Black:I wouldn't go that far, but I think I'll take this. I'll take this. What do you find disagreeable about?

32:32Jacob Bannon:I just think there's a certain level of, of the reality of living where it's every man for himself, no matter how much you want to deny it or not. We come in here alone. We die alone.

32:41Chris Black:Oh no, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't deny that. I've, I've actually said that on stage many times and I agree with it, but it's up to you what you do with that time. Just because you, you're born in this world and alone and you die alone, it doesn't mean that you can't affect people in the world in a positive way on the way out.

32:58Jacob Bannon:Sure. But I think there's more than one way to affect people positively is what I'm, is kind of what I'm saying. For sure.

33:03Chris Black:I totally agree. Absolutely agree with that.

33:05Jacob Bannon:And I think that that just depends on the, obviously that depends on the relationship and who the person is, et cetera, et cetera. But I mean, I think, like you said, to an extent, there's, you can't make everybody happy. You can only do what you want to do or can do.

33:15Chris Black:Yeah, for sure. I mean, like, I'm not changing the world. I'm a punk rock person with limited, limited skillset. This is what I, but I want to do my best with what I have.

33:23Jason Stewart:I think you're changing the world. I think you're changing the world.

33:26Jacob Bannon:You're changing the world more than we are. I mean, I think that there's a level of, I mean, you've been doing this for a very long time and obviously also, you know, you guys have a very serious following, you always have, and I think it inspires a lot in people. But I think that, do you think that people are, do you think people are digesting the music in the same way? Do you think it's still as meaningful for people with all these distractions? Do you think people can like lock in the way they used to be able to? and control that i don't think about it i mean i i of course but i mean i think that like there was a time where you would sit in your room and digest a record in a very different way you'd pull out the liner notes you'd read everything it was different now it feels passive in some ways but it's not going to change your output is basically what you're saying there's lots of

34:09Chris Black:different ways to take in music right um there always has been uh just because we live in a time that over 50 % of music is taken in through this sort of DSP model. None of us are losing listeners or anything like that because of that. If anything, we're gaining them, but we're gaining a different kind of listening experience that's completely dictated by the device itself and these systems that are in place to have our music experienced by others physical media previously used to at least give you some sort of interaction that forced you um to hold the tangible item and to sort of be engaged but even then there were there are plenty of people who are just fans of general music that just don't really give themselves to something in a fanatical way um especially especially outside of the sort of punk rock and sort of hardcore underground independent music sort of scene definitely this is like why singles were created you know and maxi singles like for real like this is like how people used to listen to music right they might not picture they might get the they would might get the the metallica one single with bread fan on the other side um but they're probably not going to spend the 13 dollars on injustice for all but they were just taking that aspect so there's there's people that were casual listeners then to music and there's they exist now i think what we have happening here is like a dismantling a systematic dismantling of the art form itself over time of the long form album that's been something that's been occurring for since digital essentially sort of took center stage can't change that it is what it is so like i just don't really think about that i think the people that do connect with our band well number one our band is not an easy one to get into uh we we're very aware that we're a we're an abrasive band that's absolutely not for anybody everybody and we're not we're trying we're not we're not trying not

36:30Jacob Bannon:to be the maxi the maxi single is not going to be your way your entry point it's just not even

36:36Chris Black:who we are as people. It's not what we do. So if somebody learns our language, great. Let's all speak the same language. But for some people, it just might be a singular song that connects with them. For others, it might be nothing. I try not to think about the way people interact with the art and music we're putting out there any place past me just being you know a partial creator of it because you just you don't have you don't have control um so any sort of ideas that you may have to guide a narrative as an artist all of that goes away as soon as you let a let a song out into the world. And so I know for like my own mental health as a person, I don't think I would do well or feel good about being in a place that was sort of like hinged on that.

37:35Chris Black:So I just, I, I just disconnect from it and I just sort of like, I just kind of pull away from it. And I think that a lot of, a lot of, you know, sort of punk leaning people will still take the time to listen to artists in a more thorough way than just sort of in snippets. And again, like, teach your own. Like, there's probably plenty of things I listen to in snippets. I'm not saying that, like, I'm the king of long form anything. I'm just simply saying that this version of music came around and was developed at a point in time where all that really mattered and was really part of the sort of like fabric and dna of stuff and so we still very much make long form albums as opposed to just songs you know that's that happens to be important to us in terms of like how we present stuff and and how we sort of shape things but you know there's 60 000 ways of doing this and there's no there's no right right or wrong way i just know for us and the way we do things that's what you know that's how we're most comfortable you you you

38:43Jason Stewart:mentioned the the ds the rise of the dsps and the digital music listening platforms was sort of the the systematic um destruction of the long form album and more into the single and snippets do you think that was a conscious decision that they were trying to do or that's just the way the the

39:01Chris Black:cards shuffled out the way the cards shuffled out is that the artists especially small ones which i would qualify our band as a small band as well you know we're all just working class musicians i imagine that your take home is probably about the same as mine maybe a little more with that said we're very sensitive to the economics of creation of things before there was dsps it was the rise of shared files right everyone's downloaded something at some point right check something out do something get into something get excited about something but the the economic backbone of independent music at that time was basically ripped out because at that time it took finaticism did two things it brought people to just download things in waves i mean i had a roommate that i remember had with terabytes of stuff he would just all constantly And it would create these little societies of people, these little communities that were doing that.

40:18Chris Black:And they were all sort of like saying like, oh, check out, here's my, you can log into my server. Here's all my stuff, yada, yada, yada. They were all sort of doing this, acting as sort of like de facto distributors of things.

40:29Jason Stewart:They're acting like they could tell the difference between a FLAC file and a WAV file. All that stuff was going down, huh, Jacob? Well, actually, you know what they were doing?

40:38Chris Black:a lot of them thought they were brilliant because they were saving space turning things into ac files and destroying their basically destroying all of their their stuff um y 'all fuck yeah you know but like the thing is this album's only four megabytes but here but here's but here's here's real talk about all that stuff like i i had a i have a friend who or an acquaintance i would say good good person overall that i that i knew haven't talked to him in a long time But he had a blog where he was basically uploading things and talking about them and celebrating these things. And he put up a record, and I knew the band.

41:18Chris Black:And he said, hey, this band's awesome. Everyone should check out this band. That immediately sounds like a noble, great thing. You're promoting the band. Signal boosting. Except that I know that that singer of that band at that particular point in time on that exact day was living in his car in Western Mass.

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44:32Chris Black:It was one example that just came right in front of me that day. And I was like, wow, okay. Well, you may not think you're doing anything negative by sharing this music and you may be bringing eyes to it. But you are actually, by the structure of what you're doing, you're not paying this artist for their thing. And now I know for a fact that that artist has left music entire at this point. And they made wonderful music and made records that I felt were important or special. But that was just one example of tens of thousands of those examples that exist everywhere. And I'm not saying that wouldn't have happened otherwise.

45:14Chris Black:It could have.

45:15Jacob Bannon:It's just a very clear example.

45:16Chris Black:It's a very clear example. would it would it have changed that guy's life that day if that record was purchased by one of those people probably not not that day but it probably would have changed their their trajectory and their relationship with the business aspect of independent music because it basically ripped the soul out of the person when they were creating something to be to be heard to be shared to be experienced by other people but it wasn't worthy enough to pay for do you think the

45:48Jacob Bannon:do you think the person in question that was making the blog do you think they weren't necessarily do you think they were just not thinking that way about the eventual outcome and what it's

45:57Chris Black:actually doing no i wouldn't expect them to sure not right away it was a different time back then

46:02Jason Stewart:there was no nobody knew the consequences in the same way the consequences now are highly publicized so you're saying thankfully nowadays with our dsps you can just post the spotify link instead of the direct mp3 download and we're all everybody's good yeah everybody's happy i mean

46:18Chris Black:that was a joke jacob yeah but on it but that well that's the i was actually saying the opposite

46:23Jason Stewart:so yes it lies the humor but with but with band camp sorry to interrupt with band camp there's it's cool that there are digital ways that we can try to give you know music and band camp is no

46:33Chris Black:different than any other dsps don't let anybody fool you break it on down jacob well i don't need are it's all it's all out there they're just all they're all aggregators of of content that they don't own right that's created by creators yeah i mean tough to argue tough to argue with that i mean that is true i mean so so you so you forego your your percentage once a month that you started during covid because it was a good pr move but in reality you're making millions upon millions not on necessarily major label artists that are actually generating revenue that i would say could potentially have some sort of spillage you know it's it's huge money but a regular you know hardcore punk rock band that spent a few thousand dollars on their record and they're getting like you know a slow trickle of things you're getting you're taking you're taking the you're taking the same percentage you're just you're just presenting it in a in a way where the artists are feeling that it's less sort of predatory but it's the same yeah there's band in the name but you're

47:41Jason Stewart:not fooling me yeah but i can put my i can hand press my zines and my hoodies and my vinyl and put it up on there for everyone to see there's a place for a transaction obviously they they will take a cut but you know i'm not saying i'm not arguing with you i see your side as well but But the other option is we just build our website ourselves and hope that the merch table does well in Denver?

48:06Chris Black:Well, that's what we used to do.

48:07Jason Stewart:Of course. And it wasn't hard. Of course.

48:10Chris Black:Converge.blogspot.com, buy the hoodie. Well, a really big thing that happens when social networks were developed was we were all told that the internet was basically too hard for anybody to do anything themselves.

48:24Jacob Bannon:Like you guys don't even try this.

48:26Chris Black:this is above your pay grade well right so didn't didn't like a lot of bands basically would would forgo even having a site because it was easier to update things and do things on these social networks which to a degree works but then you create this and this this was before a lot of the paywalls were put in put in place and that was all definitely yeah and that was all done by design that was all to create an environment which in turn made people simply have to go there People would much rather go to a Facebook and Instagram to look for a band's handle than just to search their name in a generic search engine and find that they have a site that has all of the information that you want or need, right?

49:07Chris Black:It was just, it's easier in those little snippets. And that's the way communication is gone. That war has been sort of, has happened before anybody even knew it was happening. and the autonomy of a independent artist was taken at that time because you either you can do your own thing which many of us still do we all have sites and we do things and you know do our best to have a presence on all the platforms that we can but now they're like it's all throttled you know we can't reach a community that came to us organically um without hitting a paywall so we need to pay to have visibility um through any sort of ad sense situation or pay to play in any

49:56Jason Stewart:sort of um you know advertising situation let's boost that post boost that right and like and so

50:03Chris Black:what is that really that's literally it's literally taking your your ability away it's fucked up no it

50:09Jason Stewart:is no it is saying give me 20 bucks and i'll loosen these handcuffs a little bit give me 100

50:13Chris Black:it i'll take them off and the best part about it is we'll just show you a bunch of you know aggregated numbers that don't mean anything say look at how many people saw your thing you had this many impressions it doesn't turn into real time anything because the the guts have been ripped out of the the basic sort of you know like pay for a record pay for a piece of merchandise and

50:35Jason Stewart:that be that we we are an anti-data podcast just to be clear jacob we i believe in the things that

50:42Chris Black:you can't quantify well i i'm not i'm very much not anti-data but i you know but i think that i but i do think that these things these are like conversations that like a lot of us were having as individuals and as musicians like when when this was all starting to happen i remember being like at a crudo show and then on stage talking about like the corporatization of emails and like the mid-90s and be like you know there's only like three companies that you can get right now that are not in bed with, you know, company A, B, or C. This is what you got to do if you want to do that and have a clear sort of connection without any sort of corporate or sort of big business influence with your information.

51:25Chris Black:And now it's just coming down to basic communication. And that's a real problem.

51:30Jason Stewart:Now the only people are saying that, what you were saying on stage at a Crudo show 95 is Joe Rogan saying, hey, don't trust Google. I use DuckDuckGo when I'm doing my searches so they don't get the malware.

51:40Chris Black:Well, isn't that a great example, right? So now it created this situation where we have all these people that like Joe will sell you like that or like some sort of like AI search thing or whatever. They're all just selling something.

51:58Jacob Bannon:Oh, that's 100 % what's going on for sure. It's all selling something no matter where you turn.

52:03Chris Black:It's always selling something. I would just like it to just be like, wouldn't it be great? Like, I don't know Joe. I respect that world. I thought you and Joe might have had some crossover just because of the -

52:17Jason Stewart:What world exactly is that? The world of Muay Thai or the world of podcasting?

52:21Chris Black:Well, yeah, I think you were asking each other questions. What was that?

52:26Jacob Bannon:I was saying I thought you might have had some crossover with Joe just because of the Muay Thai interests. And he might like aggressive music. Who knows?

52:34Chris Black:doubtful but you know like eventually over time money dictates everything with with stuff like that so like as good as like you know somebody like that who has all of the he has the probably the largest platform in the world currently to be able to sort of like mainline news to people wouldn't it be amazing if somebody like that said hey you know what for like fucking like one month i'm going ad free go ad free and just not be a shill you know and and be an aggregator of the things that you're interested in and not be worried about the demonetization on platforms like google or you know what have you and just be like i don't i don't need an extra 40 million dollars right now or take all that or or take that revenue and do something with it do something

53:24Jason Stewart:with it yeah well do you think that he he's very into talking about how he only advertised things that he cares about and believes in are you a shill if the the republican coffee or the knife hunting thing or the this and that if he's only advertising things that he currently loves and

53:42Chris Black:and genuinely believes in well you he's only advertising things that come across his desk and will can pay the ad revenue to to be there so that so that that's not i would you can like it

53:53Jacob Bannon:but they're also paying you. So it's a slippery slope.

53:58Chris Black:It's not a clear... It's not as clear as the presentation makes it seem. Do you know what I mean? It's not like there are... Certainly, we've all heard podcasters say, like, I use this product as well. But it's like, I guarantee you, you probably wouldn't be using Manscaped if you... Sure, if they weren't paying you. On a subscription level basis. And I'm not saying that it's negative for these companies to... to do this but like i don't necessarily want my you know like i don't know like i i don't want my news to come from manscaped i think i think that's something we can all agree on i mean i think that

54:37Jacob Bannon:we you know to to do this podcast you know we obviously do advertisement as well because we don't have a paywall and that's the way that we're able to pay ourselves and i find that trade-off to be like ethically fine for me personally. Like I am, you get to have this for free if you want it. And these people are paying for it so you don't have to. And I think that that is, it's changed a little bit. That used to be how podcasting worked. And now it's basically -

55:03Chris Black:Well, what if music worked that way? What if we all decided, say, you know what? Awesome, do that. But you know what we're going to start doing? And I know bands have done this before as sort of like a statement piece, but they've never stuck to it. just we'll just start putting ads in records we're just in the middle of the song just stop the song and we control that ad revenue and we'll just in the middle of the song we will shout out

55:26Jacob Bannon:whatever product that you want i love this idea this is a great this is a great idea but but isn't it interesting though like like i that's a wouldn't that be such a weird way to experience

55:38Chris Black:music and in art you know when stuff would just be disrupted like that totally that would be i

55:43Jason Stewart:I mean, that would maybe be something to consider for the next album. When you go in, it's all cut. We're going to do the gang vocals.

55:48Chris Black:Oh, no, we've made this joke thousands of times. We've experimented with this. One of the jokes that we make, too, is like, you know, so, you know, if everybody else thinks that they know our bands, and I was just talking to a variety of bands about the subjects over time, and they think that we should mix our records this particular way or, like, present them in a particular way, It's like, you know what? Let's just, we're just going to give everybody everything for free. And you mix your own record, you know? Create your own whatever.

56:17Jacob Bannon:Send me the stems. I'm going to do my own version.

56:20Chris Black:And so, like, the point basically becomes, like, you know, like, what are we doing here? Like, are we appreciating the artist? Or are we looking at everything as just sort of, like, content for ourselves and our own sort of creation? Like, what are we doing here?

56:36Jason Stewart:We're making it about me instead of you. where you giving me a song, most people's minds nowadays are like, how can I remix this and put my name on it? How can I turn this into something about me versus this is great art, I love it. Yeah. And everyone, or just like what we're doing now, instead of actually creating art, what if we just comment on it in a zany way three times a week? Yeah, you know. Do a couple Squarespace ad reads and then right off until the sunset.

57:09Chris Black:I don't think anybody should be reduced in that way, right? People should, like, effort should not be reduced to anything but what they're supposed to be free of those influences. And, like, yeah, like, I'm not saying, like, I don't have the right answer to any of these things. I just think that these are important things that we need to sort of discuss as content creators, right, in the modern times.

57:35Jason Stewart:I could tell it pained you to say the words content creators like that in earnest. It pains me too. It pains me too. Trust me.

57:40Jacob Bannon:But I mean, I feel like you guys have always put out records in a pretty traditional sense. You know what I mean? As far as like, here's the vinyl, here's the CD, and now here's the, you know, we're on streaming service. I feel like you, you know, in some ways you approach it traditionally, but I think you maybe approach it, I don't know. I just feel like there's only so much you can do if you want people to hear it, which I think is the eventual goal.

58:03Chris Black:For sure. Like that's, that's the problem, right? Because like you sort of have to play part of the game to at least like be able to have any sort of visibility you know like we as a as a band we've discussed just saying like hey like should we have you know our our music on streaming service a b or c you know that we don't feel ethically connected to that we won't even give our own money to but we have to have our catalog in these places is why because that's where the audience happens to take in music so like if i want to pull off our catalog from you know from whatever any of them like sometimes we also don't own the catalogs we can't just do that you can't you know like that's like a thing too like you know i can the business of it all well it's it's really difficult you know it's like our i think you can you can see that a lot of artists hands are tied it's like i i saw an artist talking about this um today um the woman from best coast yeah bethany about the wasserman situation yeah and i and i saw that and i was like yeah this is like really tragic and but it also really tells you so much about where the control is and where the change needs to happen when it comes to you know music business it's like your her hands are tied yeah totally like i need to play shows and and

59:26Jason Stewart:this is an issue but also the the beauty of that because of her sort of falling on the sword and removing herself from her main revenue stream live shows a week later chapel ron just today or yesterday announced that she's also leaving the same agency and that's you know that's a death

59:43Chris Black:hit for for some for sure but not for the you know there will be people that will come into you know there'll be other are these agents they were leaving is that is that what the yeah wasser

59:53Jacob Bannon:Wasserman's a booking agent, among other things. But yeah.

59:56Jason Stewart:Yeah, they're a booking agent. The guy was in the Epstein files doing some bad stuff and people are starting to leave the agency and Chaperone being the newest and biggest one to do so.

1:00:05Chris Black:Yeah. I mean, and there's power there. You know, that's something that... Real change. Yeah. That's direct action. You know, I'm just saying like, hey, look, this is... You wouldn't have had... If that stuff was like, for lack of better terminology, public sort of... Sorry, I have a tractor going by my window.

1:00:24Jason Stewart:I'll clean it up in post. Don't worry.

1:00:26Chris Black:Yeah, thank you.

1:00:27Jacob Bannon:I got a plug in for that. Where is this office? I didn't know there were tractors out there. I didn't know we were rural.

1:00:32Chris Black:We're not rural. We're in Beverly, Massachusetts. So I'm in a warehouse. Okay, okay, okay.

1:00:39Jacob Bannon:And it's just a big cinder block warehouse. Do you need this much space so it has to be like this? Could you put this in a more normal office?

1:00:47Chris Black:We were in a smaller space for about 14 years. it was about i can see it from here it's like a block away and that was that that had its drawbacks to you know because like again like we're you know we're small businesses we can't afford to have like like huge sick places so you know we end up kind of getting stuff that like i know we're like we're literally on the train tracks you know when people talk about like the wrong side of the tracks it's like i mean my my neighbors at the tow yard you know those are my

1:01:17Jacob Bannon:friends here you know sure guys look you're you're acclimating you know you're friends with

1:01:21Chris Black:the locals oh i love it it's no it's but i don't know anything different because it's like what we've always kind of done um you know so like i i definitely have a tolerance that's a little

1:01:31Jacob Bannon:higher than most for for bullshit i would say based on what you i would say based on what you just said your tolerance is quite high because i i imagine that do you guys tour in a bus uh it

1:01:41Chris Black:depends on the tour um sure the short answer is no there's definitely tours we have um you it's more common in europe um because yeah yeah if we can put everybody on one bus that's what we try to do so for example like now we're trying to get some things together for later in the year and that's been a conversation can we get you know three to four bands on one bus which is very difficult from a tour managing perspective for people three to four members at that point we got a oh yeah no wait no we try to do it no we try to put the whole tour on them on the singular

1:02:16Jacob Bannon:bus that way it's you know one yeah of course yeah everything is just easier sure and it's

1:02:22Chris Black:cheaper for everybody too because we're all sort of working together on on a thing we do uh bandwagons

1:02:28Jacob Bannon:now has been a common thing um meaning meaning a bandwagon meaning like a sprinter or do you mean

1:02:34Chris Black:something different yeah so so like there's a few companies out there bandwagons like one of them

1:02:39Jacob Bannon:where they oh it's oh i see it's a company okay okay yeah yeah so like they basically build out

1:02:44Chris Black:you know like a six to eight bunk sleeping van you know it's like the band camp of transportation yes yes yeah sort of but it does um it does make things um definitely more comfortable than previous you know like when you're you've done you've probably done some of the most

1:03:01Jacob Bannon:uncomfortable touring oh sure any musician we've had on this podcast in our five or six years

1:03:07Jason Stewart:so i'm impressed that there's justin pearson's probably been in some shittier vans than you

1:03:11Chris Black:have yeah actually yeah justin but only him justin still has a van i think i'm sure yeah i i i bought it i bought an old sprinter right before covid and i actually sold it um when like in that time frame when it was up uh because i have other bands that aren't converged that you know we we definitely cannot pay for a bus or a bandwagon or anything like that so yeah yeah yeah and then we were on our first tour with that or first you know a few shows whatever and um it basically blew its engine like outside of uh baltimore oh beautiful yeah it was really it was really great and i had to um yeah then after the tour i had to rent a minivan for the rest of that tour which put that that band completely in the red for years because i was gonna i was gonna say that

1:03:59Jacob Bannon:that feels like a lost leader as far as touring goes the honda odyssey puts you in the red for

1:04:04Chris Black:years that's tough oh yeah no i mean the bands are making 500 a day you know so we're not you split between five guys and you know gas money and merch half of that's gas yeah so so there's no you know like you're already gonna be in the red anyway and it just becomes much worse but like that's the that's the reality of bands you know that's the reality of course no no i mean i

1:04:27Jacob Bannon:look that's what i thought touring was you know until i was in my early 20s you know you don't

1:04:33Chris Black:realize it it's still i mean here's the thing like you get conditions to those from those experienced and there's experiences too like you know those first like i was telling you like that tour where i met um dave smalley and went to epitaph and all that stuff you know we were in a like an actual small ford cargo van that we chopped up my i had a mini ramp that i built in my backyard probably six or seven years before that okay so it's like a worm filled rotted wood not the best quality not the best quality all shit i pull i stole from construction sites

1:05:10Jason Stewart:absolutely 100 you're like let's drive this thing cross-country you you you haven't lived until you

1:05:16Chris Black:put a until you've tried to carry a uh four foot a four by eight piece of plywood and a bmx bike and roll it down the street when you're like you know 12 you know that is yeah mechanically that's not adding up but i believe it it was fucking crazy um but there's a will there's a way i just and i just did it about 20 times to build the thing um but anyway like the thing was a disaster area and it finally blew up on us in um in vegas and we ended up having to put a uh a u-haul like a full-size u-haul truck not a small one like a a full deal on it on someone's credit card it was a drummer's credit card that band and that was what we finished the tour in and the rest of us we just stayed in the back of the other u-haul box truck for four more weeks and so every time so every time that breaks or or accelerated everything would slide yeah because because we had no there were no bungee

1:06:21Jacob Bannon:chords holding the bass cab in place the drum stand could hit you in the noggin on a hard left 100 %

1:06:27Chris Black:and they yeah it was like it was really brutal and so that tour broke some people that basically left punk rock after that because it was pretty intense

1:06:38Jason Stewart:I'm out I'm gonna go work at Old Navy this is bullshit I mean I'm sleeping in a U-Haul for a month but even the

1:06:45Chris Black:best parts of that tour like you know I enjoyed my my the experience you know but the even the best case scenario we had there was no money to eat the bands were not making any money like converge played two or three shows on that tour and then i stayed on for the rest of the tour to sell records and i we just took turns filling the gas tank on our own dime because there was no there was no revenue being pulled pulled in by people it wasn't there wasn't petty cash in the front no no so every basically it was like your turn you're up you fill it and like you know i i brought i ate canned peas and canned corn for a month that's

1:07:24Jason Stewart:what i brought with me put in a cooler damn that reminds me we had we had ray capo on like a year or two ago and he was talking about they would go on the road with the little rice cooker and just pull over on the side of the road and just whip up some beans yeah kurt kurt used to do that i

1:07:38Chris Black:remember kurt being outside of a gas station with a hot plate plugged into the back of a thing i I mean, like, this is, it all sounds like romanticized. No, no. It's shitty.

1:07:49Jacob Bannon:No, we know it's shitty. Let me be clear.

1:07:50Chris Black:But here's the thing. It's like legit shitty, but it's very real. And it's like, these are the sacrifices that people made to play art and music and to do the thing, you know? And so, like, doing that sort of stuff over time, in my opinion, changes you. It doesn't matter what. How could it not? Yeah. So you end up in a weird spot where you're kind of like, we joke about it. We say that like we're not civilians anymore, you know, because we don't necessarily rely on the same sort of creature comforts that would otherwise be, you know, normal and average to experience. Yeah. And it's changed me dramatically.

1:08:35Chris Black:Like, I know, like, you know, I talk to my wife about it sometimes. Like, she gives me a hard time about it. Cause like, there are things that I probably do that are like totally abnormal, but they're from, they're from learning from being, being a kid from a divorced family and like, and basically living out of a backpack all my life. I, from, through touring.

1:08:56Jacob Bannon:How would you break that?

1:08:57Chris Black:I'm always, I, I'm, I still do it. I still sleep in jeans. you know i sleep in jeans and like when we're on tour i sleep in jeans and shoes and because i will never be in a position where i'm in a in a emergency emergency situation where i'm not prepared yeah yeah to have to get exit a vehicle because i've seen it i've been in it it's like a thing um everything's always put away everything's in bags it might sound like it's a um like a neurotic thing, but it's far from that. Actually, it's necessary preparation. I literally have to be prepared. And, you know, like being when I was a kid, you know, from like basically, you know, four years old until, you know, I left high school, every weekend was also that in my life.

1:09:45Chris Black:So that's how I lived. And that's, so that's kind of like all I, all I know.

1:09:51Jacob Bannon:It's like, she's like, you can chill out now. And you're like, I actually can't.

1:09:54Chris Black:I know I actually can't I try to all the time like I would love oh if I try to leave things out or something and like feel like you've moved into a home or just present in that way and like oh

1:10:06Jason Stewart:interesting yeah I'm all I'm all messed up if you if you said um I'm not a civilian then what what

1:10:12Chris Black:would you categorize yourself as then musician okay wait is that fair enough is that is that

1:10:20Jason Stewart:considered below the civilian line or or above the civilian line see that's the problem with

1:10:25Chris Black:hierarchy that isn't it's not that's not how i define it they're just different defined things

1:10:29Jacob Bannon:it's no jason i knew you fucked up on that one jason i knew you fucked up walked as soon as i

1:10:33Chris Black:said it well it's it's no better or worse right it's just like we're all just like we're all just different it's different different like as much as it's you know it's yeah it's super interesting to have like notoriety from like playing music or or creating art in some way and like people know you from these things but you have all the same problems everybody else does and you have you know you're navigating the same you know sort of turbulent waters the whole fucking world is is is in right now it's like we're not that much different so like yeah like i guess what i mean by like not like a civilian really is like we tolerate things which most people don't tolerate

1:11:11Jason Stewart:because you just can't oh yeah for sure perhaps to a fault no i i see what you're saying absolutely And I like the irony of my wife always saying, hey, can you put this stuff away? And your wife is saying, hey, can you pull some stuff out and put it out? Yeah, that's the opposite. No, for real, yeah.

1:11:25Chris Black:Just leave.

1:11:26Jason Stewart:It's fine. You can just leave it there.

1:11:28Chris Black:We live here.

1:11:28Jason Stewart:This house is too clean.

1:11:29Chris Black:Oh, yeah. I'd be like, no, I literally can't. Yeah, sure. It's fucking, it's like, it's not, I don't see it as a dysfunction, but, you know. I don't think it's a dysfunction.

1:11:42Jacob Bannon:It's better than hoarding. I think it's a product of your environment. and that's just what, you know, there's no reason to.

1:11:47Jason Stewart:It reminds me of when you go camping and they say, you know, you got to put all the trash into the thing or the bears are going to come. You know, all it takes is one Snickers wrapper and the bears on the campsite. Yeah, you know, there's a lot of stuff psychologically. Except the bears are trying to steal your amp and sell it for drugs. Yeah, you're not going to break that happen. Well, yeah, and like.

1:12:05Chris Black:You're a lifer. And the thing is, like, it's kind of like saying about, like, yeah, like stealing your gear or something like that. Like, we've all slept in the vans, you know, because of those reasons. multiple times it's a sit and duck it's it we've had a lot of yeah you see that you see the

1:12:20Jacob Bannon:massachusetts plates in a trailer you know it's a hardcore band with gear back there no question

1:12:25Chris Black:in from 1999 to 2004 there was no chance that wasn't what it was absolutely and well and now yeah it's it it gets crazy sometimes and you just kind of like that nicer shit than hope conspiracy if i'm gonna rob somebody it's gonna be you i don't know we never really had that nice stuff

1:12:43Jason Stewart:okay well um as as we're landing the plane jacob i if you open up the little chat window on this

1:12:49Chris Black:zoom do you see a couple t-shirts there all right let me see here my brother wanted to ask he got um

1:12:57Jason Stewart:he got a converge shirt in i think in 99 from the showcase theater okay and he said he hasn't seen it anywhere else online or as you know is it a reel or is it a bootleg or anything like that so you wanted me to ask maybe you can identify this all right on the horn so yeah go straight

1:13:15Chris Black:to the source no it's um no it's just it's a version of a shirt that we've made um okay before

1:13:21Jacob Bannon:but it's just it's on this baseball tee which makes it rare i mean we've made we've made everything you know um yeah you definitely you definitely have that's kind of merch have you made everything graphic has endured yeah i try to i'm not like like i save stuff but i don't save stuff so like

1:13:40Chris Black:i don't save my own stuff like i'm probably i've been working on this big elaborate conversion in the last few months like a book no no this is a piece of art and i i haven't and i haven't saved really much of it um as i built it you know i've got like i've got printouts and things that i'm working on but i don't have like you know all the pieces and i don't save all the shirts but i do try to save the files when i can of things yeah i do i definitely have clients that come to me sometimes like um actually like poison the well a couple years ago asked if i had uh the opposite of december and i i was looking to wrath for it and i like number zip disks i have my this is this is those jobs damn let me check the zip disks you got all right so you're saying

1:14:27Jacob Bannon:you got the Poison the Well artwork on the zip disc. Yeah, for sure.

1:14:30Jason Stewart:There's a lot of 43-year-old guys listening to this right now salivating. Yeah, the zip disc is for the heads only.

1:14:37Chris Black:But I actually couldn't, I wasn't able in the time that they needed to be able to pull that, so I didn't even actually finish pulling that information for them. Sure, but it's there. Most of it's there. Yeah, like I have stuff like that.

1:14:47Jason Stewart:Back when unzipping took a long time. Yeah, I'm pretty organized.

1:14:50Jacob Bannon:Jesus Christ. All right, Jacob, thank you for joining us on How Long Gone.

1:14:54Jason Stewart:The new record sounds great. Congratulations. Thank you. We appreciate you taking the time, man.

1:14:59Chris Black:Well, you know, and I appreciate it. I appreciate you guys having a nice conversation because I like having conversations. So this is -

1:15:04Jacob Bannon:Hey, so do we, man. Look, I mean, we've both been listening to Converge since we were in middle school. So this is a full circle moment.

1:15:10Chris Black:Well, I started this band in middle school. I know, I know. You're only a little bit older than us,

1:15:16Jacob Bannon:but you started young.

1:15:17Chris Black:Honestly, generationally, we're basically the same hardcore kid in terms of what our entry -

1:15:23Jacob Bannon:Yeah, no, you're kind of right.

1:15:25Chris Black:You know, like that weird gray area that people I aren't familiar with. And so hopefully someone that's younger can listen to this and sort of understand that there's different mentalities that come with age. No, for sure.

1:15:38Jason Stewart:Your mentality is much different than ours. And I think that the A-B comparison will be interesting in the final edit.

1:15:45Chris Black:Oh, it'll be fun.

1:15:46Jason Stewart:We appreciate it for real.

1:15:47Chris Black:Thank you, guys. I appreciate your work. And yeah, as much as I'm buster balls, you guys are doing good, and you're doing good work. No, hey. Right back at you, Jacob.

1:15:55Jacob Bannon:We deserve it. We'll talk to you soon.

1:15:57Chris Black:Okay, be good, guys. Thank you. Thanks, bud. All right, bye. Bye.