916. - Melissa Auf der Maur

7:32Melissa Auf der Maur:Okay, so it's some real computing power. You know, I don't care enough. You know what it really is, Jason. Is it too cheap, you know? No, no, no. I don't think so. I can't buy something that has a name like Neo. I can't. I just can't. That's a personal thing. No shade to R &B singer, multiple wife-haver Neo, and no shade to -

7:51Jason Stewart:No shade to the gaming system Neo Geo. Exactly. Nat Geo, all of them.

7:55Melissa Auf der Maur:Isn't there a Neo character that Keanu Reeves played as well? In The Matrix, that's right. Is that The Matrix? Okay. So I think Neo is a word that we associate with things good and bad, But for some reason, I just can't imagine the think tank and the money and time spent on coming up with that name and the ones that were killed and the discussions that were had. And I just it feels labored over in a way that is unsexy.

8:17Jason Stewart:Yeah. I mean, you know, Neo just means new, I guess. But I'm sure there's some deep Latin. Yeah. But you know what I mean.

8:25Melissa Auf der Maur:Like we all knowing what the word means. And then I don't know. It just feels it just feels unnecessary to me. but I love when the Apple Corporation innovates. I think they've only had a few misses in my lifetime. I think the Neo will actually, I think the Neo though will succeed. It's a good idea. It's a great idea and a great price point. So I think it will probably work.

8:45Jason Stewart:It's finna succeed. I agree. Amoeba in Los Angeles, Hollywood famous record store over the years is now being turned. It was one of those like Van Gogh.

8:57Melissa Auf der Maur:Oh yeah. It's the museum of ice cream, but Van Gogh, the one on Sunset Boulevard. Yeah. The original building.

9:03Jason Stewart:It's being flipped into a bathhouse, like a modern. Good God.

9:08Melissa Auf der Maur:Good fucking God. That's worse. That's literally worse than the Museum of Slime. Like, that is somehow. Saunas are not meant for groups. I don't know how many times. I don't understand who would want to be in a sauna with a group. I guess Nordic people. That's fine. Yeah, if you're in.

9:25Jason Stewart:Russian motherfuckers.

9:26Melissa Auf der Maur:If you're in the countries where the sauna culture originated, of course, do what they do. That is the right thing. But in Los Angeles, California, do you really – I don't know, man. It makes me insane. The idea of being in a sauna with like 40 singles, chatting it up while they have like mezcal margaritas, is psycho to me.

9:47Jason Stewart:Yeah, and I think the people doing it are – they might be in New York. Yeah, it's a New York-based spa chain.

9:53Melissa Auf der Maur:Of course it is. Of course it is. Which one is it?

9:55Jason Stewart:I need to turn off my ad blocker

9:59Melissa Auf der Maur:I've been invited to 14 of these that have opened in the last year and I just wonder how many can possibly survive because I blame the VCs you know they're giving them money and I understand why the idea is appealing because sauna culture is popping but if it was up to me I'm taking TJ route I would rather spend the five grand and have that shit in my house or on my fucking balcony in New York City than go to one of those a thousand times. It just doesn't.

10:28Jason Stewart:The world is sort of now really separating into two categories. The name of the company is literally just called Bathhouse. They have locations in Williamsburg. Yeah, that's the biggest. I think that's the biggest one. But there's people who do these tasks, whatever it may be, sauna-ing, meditating, working out, running, jogging, rock climbing, whatever it is, cooking. and then there's that because it's their safe sort of meditative space to escape the world clear the head and then there's some people who uh i guess in more in need or have a difficult time more difficult time seeking their community or a larger desire to find a community of people

11:07Melissa Auf der Maur:in real life if by community you mean pussy then yes i agree that that is that is true i'm of two

11:14Jason Stewart:minds of it i don't know if one is necessary you know if if it's just i guess the old me would say like it's the difference between cool people and not cool people but some i think sometimes people might just have like their their brain is wired differently and they're just you know some some animals are more social at the dog park and some hide under the table and it doesn't make one

11:35Melissa Auf der Maur:don't bring don't bring dogs into this this is all bad this is all bad don't make it worse by bringing dogs into it all right we have a guest today uh it's just like when you go to the cat

11:45Jason Stewart:cafe and some of the cats will come up to you and want pets and some of them you know yep we have a

11:50Melissa Auf der Maur:guest today uh thank god because otherwise we'd be talking about group sonning for the next 45 minutes um melissa off dumar is a musician um who has a new memoir coming out even the good girls will cry which march 17th very soon um and uh you know we i've we this has been one of the uh hardest podcasts to schedule it's like we're trying to get billy eilish for three and a half hours but Melissa was in Hole she was in Smashing Pumpkins she's a legendary Canadian and her story is pretty unbelievable she was around for a lot of things that are you know big memories for Jason and I and I cannot believe she's from Montreal she's a real survivor for that

12:32Jason Stewart:I didn't know it has been a tough one to book she's a hard one to nail down I didn't know people in Hudson Valley New York were this busy I thought

12:43Melissa Auf der Maur:you went to Hudson Valley so you could just bake bread and look good in clogs. But Melissa's proving us more.

12:48Jason Stewart:I thought you were supposed to go there to unplug, unwind, get their fast tickets low. I feel like we're trying to book Bob Iger on the pod or Mark Cubon.

12:58Melissa Auf der Maur:Bob Iger.

12:59Jason Stewart:All right, let's give Melissa a call.

13:01Melissa Auf der Maur:Hopefully they have Wi-Fi. I have my glasses on.

13:02Jason Stewart:Is that you, Bobby Iger?

13:03Melissa Auf der Maur:Hopefully they have Wi-Fi up there in Hudson.

13:05Jason Stewart:She had to spring for the fiber optic cable installation.

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14:44Melissa Auf der Maur:Do I know what's happening? Of course I do. It's marked on all of my calendars, physical and digital.

14:48Jason Stewart:My therapist is a woman, of course. I would never talk to a man about my life, but so many great women in our lives, our moms, our sisters, our friends, our partners, our neighbors, our reply girls they're all important and the roles they play in our lives and we thank them for therapizing us and dealing with us nasty ass men year over year month after month thank you for teaching me how to set a healthy boundary and then forget about it in a couple months as well as just the overall well-being of mankind in general you guys already know what the vibes are

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15:59Chris Black:I'm trying to get, yeah, I see Pet Shop Boys and maybe more romantic person. And then I'm trying to see what's in the background, like a steel something. Okay.

16:10Jason Stewart:Those are just his medical devices.

16:12Melissa Auf der Maur:It might be my Alessi kettle or maybe my Berkey water filter. There's not much else. Oh, both.

16:17Chris Black:Yes. Very good. Kettles. I want you to know that I, I've been excited about this because of Jen. Jen was, you know, raving about these guys. Can't wait. But I am so brain dead right now. This is my fifth hour talking straight, but I'm so glad that you made me fit me in because I could not.

16:40Melissa Auf der Maur:Well, we were joking earlier. It was like we were trying to book Bob Iger, Billie Eilish with your schedule. I don't know who you think you are, but.

16:46Chris Black:Hilarious. No, no. I mean, mainly I'm a mother of a teenager and I'm sending a huge book to the printers on Friday. my second book comes out

16:55Melissa Auf der Maur:this is the photo book

16:58Chris Black:and it makes no sense the deadline of launching this while I'm deadlining that that was my problem but it's more than my first very grown up podcast I'm doing other than Billy Corgan and I do love this format

17:12Melissa Auf der Maur:are you telling me that Cat Daddy has a podcast?

17:17Chris Black:it's wrestling based though

17:18Jason Stewart:so were you able to keep up?

17:20Chris Black:that is his character I don't know his character

17:22Melissa Auf der Maur:I didn't know he had a podcast. I'm serious.

17:25Chris Black:Yeah, it's called Magnificent Others.

17:28Melissa Auf der Maur:Oh, no. Okay. What are we talking about on that podcast, Melissa, if you don't mind me asking?

17:32Chris Black:He's talking to a lot of cool, weirdo people. He's got a very eclectic cast of guests that are magnificent, clearly. Sure. But you should check it out. He's big on TikTok. That's kind of why he -

17:46Melissa Auf der Maur:That is fucked up.

17:48Chris Black:But that is how he got big on TikTok. talk was this and he invited me he's like i wanted to get you know i want the pumpkin fans to know about your book like okay great and i had my mentor interview me uh but that being said i want to be super present with you guys i just had this like five hour back-to-back talk and i wanted to take

18:08Melissa Auf der Maur:a moment of silence to send an intention oh namaste for this conversation okay all right let's do it

18:15Chris Black:let's do it have we started by the way do you record right away okay okay so one second

18:22Jason Stewart:shut the fuck up hard for me okay

18:33Melissa Auf der Maur:so who are you why am i here we've done this we've done almost a thousand episodes of this podcast and i have to say that's the first time someone set the intention after we started so i'm I'm impressed by your commitment.

18:46Jason Stewart:Yeah, I can't tell if you're frightened to podcast, you don't think it's going to go well, and you had to say a prayer, or if you're so confident in your spiritual sonic connection with the world, it's no problem. It's like speeding over a speed bump in a monster truck, not a problem. And also, really quick, before we start.

19:04Chris Black:Before we start, I thought we started.

19:06Jason Stewart:We did start.

19:07Chris Black:Got it.

19:08Jason Stewart:I just wanted to backpedal because you just said Jen was telling you, and you're talking about Jen.

19:12Chris Black:Vendetti.

19:13Jason Stewart:The casting director that was all...

19:16Chris Black:The godmother of my daughter, yes. Oh, wow, you guys are that close.

19:19Melissa Auf der Maur:Okay, so you both chose to live in no man's land.

19:23Chris Black:She chose to be near me after I told her for 10 years, you can still have a life, actually a better life, if you leave New York City.

19:31Melissa Auf der Maur:I don't believe you. No, I believe you should move there. I'm saying, I don't know if... I mean, I've visited all these upstate towns that people have romanticized, and they just seem like Brooklyn to me.

19:44Chris Black:Okay, well, you weren't here 18 years ago when I showed up and it was Twin Peaks, okay? I moved here because it was fucked up and weird as shit and to be discovered. And then now everybody fucking, now it's pacification and I can get lattes on every block and it's retarded. How far is it?

20:02Melissa Auf der Maur:How long would it take you in your Volvo to commute from there to the city?

20:08Chris Black:so the reason i ended up here is it's four hours door today door to my mother's house in montreal and i fell in love with a guy from lower manhattan and i'm like no so it was for geographical

20:21Melissa Auf der Maur:reasons you're telling me there's a woman that fell in love with a guy from lower manhattan i barely believe that i've never heard of that in my life a musician that fell in love with a guy

20:29Chris Black:in lower manhattan does that sound stereotypical is that what you're saying i don't believe that

20:33Melissa Auf der Maur:one bit okay so you're from montreal which i have to say um i hope it's shocking to me i've i've lived there for no way three months during covid because my wife was living there and i gotta say

20:44Chris Black:i don't know how you did it one of my least favorite places on earth oh my god i mean maybe you haven't read my book yet where i give an entire chapter devoted to my city because she's my favorite my other parent she's called called the city she raised me the book the book comes

21:00Jason Stewart:out next week so we haven't had a chance to read it yet but looking forward no one sent no one sent

21:04Melissa Auf der Maur:us a copy i don't know what i don't know how the i i would have read your book i don't read a lot

21:08Chris Black:of them because they're bad but you're oh my god that's horrible i'm so sorry it's okay i didn't

21:12Jason Stewart:really ask we're a dinky podcast in comparison to the other ones that you're doing so it makes

21:16Chris Black:sense well just so you know though the reason why i kept putting you as a priority jen was but i kept asking why aren't these guys slotted in yet because i hear they're fun to talk to was that i had random cool friends in the country mentioned that they heard jen on the podcast or mentioned someone else and i'm like so according to the radar of people that i like and know this is a cool podcast so that's why i kept asking again is i heard about you quite we do quite well in the we

21:45Melissa Auf der Maur:do quite well in the slightly aging rocker demographic that is sort of our okay that's

21:50Jason Stewart:that's kind of our zone we're the elder millennial to gen x pipeline but i hate that you didn't get

21:56Chris Black:to read the book or even one second. One second, one second.

21:58Melissa Auf der Maur:Uh-oh. There's a cow coming in or something. Oh, shit. The milk, I thought the milkman was delicious. Oh, you're going to show us the cover.

22:06Chris Black:But second of all, because that amazing city that you didn't hate, you liked it. That was a joke.

22:12Melissa Auf der Maur:No, no, no. I don't like it. No, I don't like it.

22:14Chris Black:You don't like it. Was it the French thing or the cold thing? Yes.

22:17Melissa Auf der Maur:Mostly the French thing. Yeah, yeah, okay. Yeah, it is beautiful in the summer. It's very special in the summer, I will say.

22:22Jason Stewart:Good, good. They used to have good American apparel stores, is a good place to get ecstasy. Go ahead. You have a book.

22:28Chris Black:You see, act one, magic.

22:31Melissa Auf der Maur:Okay. That's Montreal. This is what you're -

22:35Chris Black:Chapter one is my dreamy frontline feminist, best, coolest woman of the counterculture, my mother. Then you go to chapter two.

22:45Jason Stewart:Your mother was a baddie. Yeah.

22:46Chris Black:Yeah, hold on. My coolest shit father, Nick. Then you go to chapter three. the city she raised me that's so dramatic rooftops and it's the other parents my mother this is like my primary parent the city i would have loved if you ended up being like a dentist with parents

23:06Melissa Auf der Maur:like that that would have been that would have been the real twist yeah no i mean i i thought i

23:10Chris Black:wouldn't ever be able to live up to how cool they were they were so ahead of their time so radical pioneering on every level and i had to work really hard to have a cool life and because montreal was

23:24Melissa Auf der Maur:pretty loose like pretty cool in that era i assume counterculture yeah and there was a whole other

23:30Chris Black:parallel to the race riots of the u.s was the english french language wars that's why when

23:37Melissa Auf der Maur:you're in montreal it feels we lost yeah yeah yeah it's pretty radical and my parents were very

23:42Chris Black:radical very politically involved and my father was in jail many times as a anglophone fighting for the underdog who were the francophones so like i was raised by all counterculture the underdog should be the winner was like the theme that i was raised so how's your how's your your french then your quebecois oh i had to go to french school my whole life because my mother was an american my mother's from boston who fell in love with montreal by studying french literature at mcgill and she became like a a devout french canadian theater she's the leading translator of French-Canadian theater, and she's devoted her life to the French-Canadian story and identity and language.

24:23Chris Black:So I went to French school because that's both parents explained you're in a French place. So yeah.

24:31Jason Stewart:I have a follow-up question. If Montreal is so awesome, why don't you live there now?

24:36Chris Black:This is the greatest mystery of my life. I live in conflict. It's true. My poor family. Oh, I've been trying to move back since I left in 1994. It's actually mentally deranged. And then I get some crazy problem I have. But it's because I'm a dual citizen and I realize I live in conflict as I love all the great things of the United States. I love all the great things and I hate both bad sides of both places. I'm like super privileged that I get to live in both and have both is the real answer. Okay.

25:08Melissa Auf der Maur:So you go to Montreal a lot. You get your fill is what you're saying.

25:11Chris Black:Oh, exactly. And that's why, because I live four hours away and I have a pied -à-terre there. You know what that means?

25:18Jason Stewart:I do know what that means. You're living as privileged as one could live in Hudson, New York.

25:26Chris Black:Exactly. Exactly. And then my husband has an off-the-grid, his family has an off-the-grid cabin in Vermont. We're set. I got everything in the Northeast.

25:33Jason Stewart:You guys sound like fucking truthers. Okay. Do you got a bomb shelter too? You got everything but sunshine and warmth. Yeah. That sounds awesome. You ever been to Florida? And running water.

25:41Chris Black:and electric yeah i only have electric vehicles i have no fossil fuels running through any infrastructure including this big giant reclaimed schoolhouse that i am running my operation out of here so we we believe in electric okay uh we believe that the world is round and all right

25:58Jason Stewart:we're gonna wrap it up then because that's kind of okay well okay uh speaking on the subject of electric cars i was listening to a podcast episode you did a couple years ago it was sort of while you were in the process of writing the book and the cyber truck had just come out and you were talking very positively about the cyber truck about elon musk and his engineering really

26:21Chris Black:so i have a ribian okay i got a ribian you're even worse you're one of the biggest problems

26:27Melissa Auf der Maur:out there i didn't know they let women buy those thank god and that makes them cooler than i thought

26:32Jason Stewart:okay well well have your have your thoughts and opinions not on elon because you you didn't say like elon is an awesome guy like two years ago you were saying he's like a shitty douchey guy but just from you know the work he's done for the environment yeah to push human beings forward his engineering fortitude you know all that stuff do you still feel that same way about him or has

26:53Chris Black:have things changed in these last two years well obviously also my other question to you is do you love the ceo of mercedes and ford hey this is my hey no no don't use my argument this is always my

27:06Melissa Auf der Maur:argument with all these fucking losers who think every every ceo is bad of anything basically

27:10Chris Black:exactly i mean so i don't care about the guy i just like and he didn't even invent the technology he took cool ideas from other people who are super smart he's got a great crew of engineers and i still think the net positive of that company i wish they would remove him from it because he's creating you know he's probably ruining part in fact there was all of this incredible infrastructure stuff they were supposed to do and then he lost his mind and invested in other crazy things and

27:36Melissa Auf der Maur:now we don't have i know he had a baby he had a baby with grimes he really did invest in crazy

27:40Chris Black:stuff i couldn't agree more she and i she and i share birthdays and we both went to the same art school we're both born in saint patrick's day we went to concordia university in the art department and i actually am a fan of her like my art center had one of her early shows like 15 years ago she played at my like cool art center as an artist i find her very interesting i'm very upset that she's lost her way love can do that though love can create problems love can take you to hudson love can take you to fucking it's true hanging out with tech people can do that as well exactly

28:11Melissa Auf der Maur:we drive a rivian though is it the truck or the suv oh i wish is and no it's the truck the pickup

28:17Chris Black:truck because we do have a pretty big infrastructure situation i do have two giant reclaimed buildings that we manage and have restored and we have creative uh clientele and big events so it's more our work truck. I'm familiar.

28:31Melissa Auf der Maur:I'm familiar with the whole thing. Okay.

28:33Chris Black:Cause you live in New

28:34Melissa Auf der Maur:York. Yeah. I've never been, but I've obviously heard of it.

28:37Chris Black:So you have been to these upstate towns. Exactly.

28:39Jason Stewart:So you're hauling giant candles and things around from place to place. Can I book my wedding there? Usually yes.

28:47Chris Black:Yes. No, it's the guy booked the first wedding and I went to a wedding. I was like barely pregnant and we just started this new crazy idea of this big old factory that was in our backyard and i went to a like a wedding conference convention i don't even know what they were i didn't have any flyers i had nothing and you're doing a round circle like your venue and i said if you want an industrial wedding call me ask for my phone number and i booked the first weddings that is now pretty huge we have a very lucrative wedding business that supports all of my arty loves for the factory people love to get married upstate i know love

29:24Melissa Auf der Maur:it. It's just really, I mean, I get it to some extent, but yeah, I mean, weddings are a big business. They people, you can charge people whatever you want. Love, love.

29:32Chris Black:Yes. And I,

29:34Melissa Auf der Maur:if the parents got bread, love knows no bounds. Yeah.

29:35Chris Black:Whereas I just want to have 24 hour experimental music festivals and I do do that too, but I hate to be the one to tell you,

29:43Melissa Auf der Maur:but those are going to lose money. You know what I mean? They might break even if you're lucky.

29:46Chris Black:That's what the, that's what the early bookkeepers used to say to me, like, Melissa, if you want to have a freaky community center, you're also going to have to have weddings. I was like, I'm fine. And I went out and I got weddings and I booked them.

29:58Melissa Auf der Maur:I appreciate that you took the bull by the horns and said, you know what? I'll pay Peter. One for you, one for them. Yeah, exactly.

30:04Chris Black:I have learned a lot about the real world that I did not learn of while I was in a bass player in a rock band in the 90s. I learned nothing about the real world back then. And then I ran for a decade trying to escape the 90s, get me to where I am outside of the 90s. And then I emerged in Hudson, New York, and I had a baby, and I started a factory, and I learned real life. And I drive a truck, and there's usually garbage in it, to answer your question. How are you doing with real life, though, in general?

30:32Melissa Auf der Maur:You burn your garbage up there, right?

30:35Chris Black:No way. No, I'm an actual urban girl. I'm actually not rural. The joke is I live in a tiny little city, and I live the city life. Yeah, see that Brooklyn thing you're saying, it's because you weren't up here before it was Brooklyn, but now it's the problem, yes.

30:47Jason Stewart:So you just Postmates Cafe Mutton all day and watch Netflix up there?

30:52Chris Black:But did you read The Big Swiss? Have you had that writer on air? I have read The Big Swiss. Yeah, I mean, that's all post-truth Hudson.

31:02Melissa Auf der Maur:But do you miss a city setting at all?

31:06Chris Black:No. I have a pretty rich inner world of my, like this book I read.

31:11Melissa Auf der Maur:I can tell you're crazy, but I'm just saying, you mean that you...

31:14Chris Black:Actually, quite sane compared to all the crazy people I've been around.

31:17Melissa Auf der Maur:that's that's also true that's also you're saying you can spend time with yourself yeah who's the

31:21Chris Black:crazy one exactly i am uh i the only thing i miss about my old life pre-small town is i used to play music yeah that's the only thing i really left behind because i chose to not be a nomad freak as a mother so my transition to small town also then shifted into becoming a mother and i wanted to be home so no i think that the only thing i miss of like old me is the actual frequency of the base channeling magic through my body into like a setting with a shared situation out into the ocean of people who want to watch it and listen to it that i miss damn i meant like restaurants and shit but okay i see i was i was thinking alternate street parking but you okay

32:13Jason Stewart:If you're out there in Hudson in a small town, have you switched to any other musical instruments to try and channel that energy? Are we hitting the didgeridoo? Are we hitting some ambient synthesizers?

32:29Chris Black:No, we're hitting a keyboard and a computer. You've got a lot of room for a sitar. I do, and I don't know. Now I wrote a book, and I loved writing more than I could have ever imagined. And that I can do upstate by the fire with my cat on my lap for the rest of my life and it will work out well.

32:45Jason Stewart:It's conducive. It's a great third act to borrow a pun from the writing structure. But when I was listening to an interview with you, you mentioned something that will probably make Chris jealous and many other authors jealous is that you said writing comes very easy to you. Don't be one of those people. Because you already know what you want to say and you just have to write it down. And a lot of people, I think they know what they want to say, but they're just not able to harness you know what I mean and bring it back down into their

33:14Chris Black:fingertips one of the things because you haven't written read my book and you will know my both my parents were masters of the word and I grew up totally intimidated by my coolest shit masters of the word parents and that's why music and photography was my thing like I'm not gonna to try to do that. And then, but through osmosis, first of all, my father was the Jimmy Breslin of Montreal, they called him, the unofficial mayor of downtown Montreal. The guy wrote my entire childhood. He wrote three days a week, a column, my entire childhood is narrated by my amazing, charismatic, hilarious, beginning, middle, and father.

33:53Chris Black:He had such a clear way of understanding humanity. And he was like, both politically active and fighting for the underdog, but he was trying to represent the people. So when it came to writing this book, it's as if I had like in the background, my father wrote my entire childhood. So I kind of but obviously through the lens of a madman, he's a really wild dead long ago, the day my book comes out next year, next week is the age that he was when he died. So my father died young and tragic, but was remarkably mother, like so talented and writing and storytelling was his thing. So I have it in, you know, through osmosis, but I also, um, knowing that I was witnessing chaotic history in the making on this like nineties rock saga, Vikings mythology, crazy.

34:46Chris Black:I mean, the Curt and Courtney thing, the whole thing I was stepping into was so ridiculously big and complex. And everyone and their mother was somehow like affected by like Kurt's death or something. And then the bass player dies and I have to replace her and all this drama. I photographed every day and wrote in my diary every day. And in my book, I'm very, very clear about the amount of writing and documenting I did at the time and many people who have read the book which you haven't is stop hammering that in please sorry but it's making the it's making the interview different because I'm trying to fill in some blanks for you but um is that everyone assumes that I read use my diaries and all my photos to tell this book I wrote this all from memory and the details every single thing came coming back like a weird waterfall download.

35:41Chris Black:And I think it's because I photographed and wrote about it so much. I was like marking, I got burned it into my brain and then compounded with the fact that I went running and screaming from the nineties, tried to avoid almost all thinking of it, tried to define myself outside of it. And I needed so badly to purge it that like it was a necessity. I was like, get it the fuck out of me so I can move on. Like I have to move on from the story. I do not want to live like strangled.

36:12Jason Stewart:So you couldn't type fast enough by the fireplace. I literally could not type fast enough. It was like, get the fuck out.

36:17Chris Black:Get it out.

36:18Jason Stewart:It reminds me of when like a radio station goes in, you're locked in a tube and they just released$10 ,000 and you got to grab it. Those are just chapters.

36:26Chris Black:Exactly.

36:27Jason Stewart:And everyone is watching from the outside like interior.

36:30Chris Black:It was a necessity. I don't know how my next book will be and I hope to write one. But I had like, I had 200, this is already too long, just so you know, I was 100 pages more than they wanted. It was, I had to cut 200 pages to get it to this. It was an abnormal amount of information. I had to cut Jeff Buckley out. I had to cut Evan Dando out. I had to cut all these things and these exciting stories out because I needed to support the very complex.

36:55Melissa Auf der Maur:All right, well, look, you can tell, why don't you tell those stories to us then? We can start with Jeff Buckley and then we'll move on to Dando. And if you have anything else that you want to share, it's an open forum for you here.

37:05Jason Stewart:Since you're able to just channel this information through the gods and the DNA of your father's storytelling. And speaking of that, how do you say Nepo baby in Quebecois?

37:14Chris Black:I don't know. There is no word for that in Quebecois, but that's a good question.

37:20Melissa Auf der Maur:This episode of How Long Gone is brought to us by our friends at Dart Collective. I think we can all agree that wedding music is typically quite lame, cheesy, and it doesn't represent the bride and groom's personal music taste. Luckily, Dart works with actual musicians and artists, many of whom have their own productive careers or tour in bands you've heard of. Everyone from Leon Bridges to Taylor Swift. Dart DJs use vinyl and are cool in a way that your peers would be, not a dated Carnival Cruise performer. They even have an in-house stylist to make sure all personnel look perfect on the day.

37:56Melissa Auf der Maur:Dart travels all over the world for events from Morocco to Italy, Greece, and the Maldives. Dart has done huge celebrity events and also intimate ones.

38:03Jason Stewart:Yeah, Chris, I am personally friends with Michael from Dart, and I have worked with them for years. I think the last time I did a big one, we did the Sweet Green wedding. they set up a beautiful booth for the you know for the ceremony just some cocktail music some vinyl some cool vibes and then they set up a whole big tent with a crazy bumping sound system for me to play in later these guys are great a lot of people always ask me like hey you know do cool wedding djs exist do cool event people exist the cool part about dart is they'll work with people like me to come and dj your party as well as provide all the gear and all the consulting and all that stuff.

38:46Jason Stewart:So if you don't know who to hire for your event, Dart Collective is the one. Dart, just like throwing a dart, dash collective.com. And as for Mike, his email address is michael at dart-collective.com. Tell them we sent you. So if you have an event coming up this summer, Dart Collective is where you go.

39:10Melissa Auf der Maur:Most of our listeners are probably familiar with Vogue. it's a publication that has given audiences an exclusive inside look at fashion and cultural moments for over 100 years and luckily they have a podcast that will give you the same damn thing the run-through with vogue is what it's called you can get it wherever you listen to podcasts

39:26Jason Stewart:and you're able to head behind the scenes of the iconic vogue moments like the highly coveted september issue as well as the met gala invitation still waiting on that one meet the influential people behind the scenes of fashion's greatest moments. From designers and creative directors to Vogue editors and the woman behind the infamous Vogue closet, get inspired while listening to the creative process of people like creative director Rachel Scott, multi-talented artist Rosalia, as well as the Academy Award winning actress Halle Berry. Go beyond the pages of Vogue with the run-through, available wherever you get podcasts.

40:11Chris Black:I've never thought of it that way other than yes I have extraordinary parents that made it very hard

40:16Melissa Auf der Maur:no we talk about people that have cool parents all the time it's a real it's a different way of being brought up you know and it's not I think it's very different than people being rich um I would say you're right maybe I think I would say it's depending on how you handle it better you know what I mean because if you're able to yeah harness it in some way I think it's probably I I think that a lot of people getting that kind of money fucks them up.

40:39Chris Black:Oh, getting money is the worst. Most people I know who come from money are super fucked up. But put it this way, my mother is 83 years old, still living cultural relevant life. She was in Paris all of last summer being a dramaturg for a very important giant theater production starring Juliette Binoche, having dinner at midnight with all the actors at 83. And all the things that my mother did not give me when I was a child, which there are, and they're in the book, and I love my mother. I will take cool role model with clear call of what she needs to do in this lifetime over anything I didn't get from her as emotionally.

41:22Chris Black:Yeah, yeah. That makes sense. She is a kind person, but she was a single mother. My father came in later. I was totally on my own, pretty much, which is also helpful. But hold on.

41:33Melissa Auf der Maur:Did mom learn anything in this book? Maybe you didn't want her to learn?

41:36Chris Black:I mean, yes, there is some stuff. And she's really, you know, the New York Times came up last year. Last week, she's really upset about the fact that my opening line of my book is, I am a product of a one night stand between two radically beautiful and adventurous souls who in their fearless independence came together for a romantic weekend.

42:00Melissa Auf der Maur:So you're basically, your mom's like, you're slut shaming me in the first sentence of your book.

42:04Chris Black:So apparently her weird friends, I'm like, this is a true story. This is a true story. I did not make this up.

42:10Melissa Auf der Maur:What do you want me to do?

42:11Chris Black:What do you want me to do, mom? That's what happened. Her friends apparently after New York Times, I got all these emails of, you must be so proud and mortified. Because the New York Times refers to it as that. And I had a big reckoning with her this week of, listen, I actually have to come to terms with how I am a product. literally of two people who are not in love who did not try to have me it's cool that you decided to have me this is but i have to live with the fact that i don't come from your story to tell

42:39Melissa Auf der Maur:and it's my story to tell i mean more not the shade you throw to your mom i mean more of the

42:45Chris Black:other stuff you know what i'm saying my mother my god my mother literally was frank zappa's girlfriend she had sex with every she was the first female disc jockey on the montreal airwaves

42:56Melissa Auf der Maur:Oh, so you're saying your mom was, oh, okay, so your mom was meeting the rockers.

42:59Chris Black:That's why I got into rock music.

43:01Jason Stewart:You were slut-shaming her because she deserved it, is what you're saying.

43:05Chris Black:No, you were bad. You two were bad. Because, by the way, one-night stands are a thing of empowerment, and they are beautiful. I agree. And they are free and all that. Hey, there's no shade. But what's the word slut? We don't need to, even though Courtney used to write that on her stomach all the time. I remember that. But you guys using it.

43:23Melissa Auf der Maur:We would never say the word slut on this podcast unless it was in the shaming context. We would never call.

43:28Jason Stewart:Do you have an example of a word to use that would make you happier than the word slut?

43:35Chris Black:Oh, sexual freedom? Oh, okay. We're going back to the 60s.

43:38Jason Stewart:It's a little wordy. You're saying free love?

43:39Chris Black:I'm more bohemian than I am like 90s. I'm much more like turn of the last century. Yeah, you're a Victorian mama. You know, 1920s. I'm from another time. I'm not really 90s-like. I'm actually out of step with that time, which is why I think I have a cool lens on it.

43:58Melissa Auf der Maur:Revisiting all of this after trying to leave it behind, what was the reason? Obviously, it's nice to get paid and do it and all that stuff.

44:06Chris Black:I don't do anything for money. Wait until you read my book. I literally run from money and success. I was asked to join Hole, and I said, no, thank you.

44:13Melissa Auf der Maur:No, I know that, but I'm saying that was a long time ago. Now you have responsibilities.

44:16Chris Black:No, I'm still – the only compromise I made was weddings. I do not compromise my creative self for money and success. Zero.

44:25Melissa Auf der Maur:Must be nice. All we do is compromise over here at How Long Gone. What do you want us to shill? We'll do it.

44:30Chris Black:Do you have cool sponsors that you do have to shill? Is that what you do? Of course.

44:34Melissa Auf der Maur:Yeah, I love BetterHelp, Melissa. Nothing is better than texting your therapist. Is that a moto yoga? Yeah, well, actually, this is my friend. Is that a moto yoga water bottle?

44:42Chris Black:I'm not sponsored. They're actually a defunct yoga company, but it's my friend's company, and she's a musician. Oh, are they close? they actually had to change their name it's like a branding thing i don't know oh i didn't know that

44:51Melissa Auf der Maur:i didn't realize that okay there's one in la there's one in in brooklyn too yeah it's the same

44:55Chris Black:it's the same my friend becky she's a yoga mogul but she's actually an avant-garde musician from montreal and i'm proud of her because she came out as an avant-garde musician and made like a big

45:07Melissa Auf der Maur:yoga industry which i'm super impressed with okay um but um do you ever interview yoga moguls

45:14Chris Black:no who do you interview actually what do you talk to all kinds of people a lot of musicians

45:20Jason Stewart:a lot of writers all kinds of women we talk to them all the time but yeah mostly with musicians writers comedian oh yeah gay guys the list goes on just any type of people of note of culture some of them were interested in personally some of them we get pitched and it's an awesome random thing okay but yeah we talked to anyone and everyone and then you you didn't you're not

45:43Chris Black:talking to me because jen told you because you had already heard of my book and i feel like we've been trying to do this for a while and it okay okay and it just you know some things take i mean

45:52Melissa Auf der Maur:not not this but some things take years literally like you know i was trying to talk to fucking richard ashcroft since we started the podcast and finally you know what i mean things sort of

46:02Chris Black:did you talk to him yeah it's sweet yeah he was great yeah i'm actually a good richard ashcroft did I even I cut I definitely cut that but I didn't even write it to begin with but when that that song came out and they were there was that such a special like parting of the clouds with them arriving I was like at a do you know Tom and Jerry's on Houston so I've done coke at Tom and Jerry's okay I I've gotten into really politically incorrect arguments with the Irish bartender there because I'm born in St. Patrick's Day and he gave me way too much tequila and I just put my foot in five mouths.

46:37Melissa Auf der Maur:Of course, the most important drink of Ireland, the tequila. The Irish tequila.

46:42Chris Black:But I have an amazing moment where one of the MTV, like whatever, like there was all these MTV characters in the 90s, you know, the one who got the video to the people who put Nirvana's video. Like, so all these MTVs, you know, young, they were the equivalent of A &R people, but MTV were in our midst and I'd become friends with one of them, Amy because most of our crew lived in LA but I lived in the East Village I was trying like to get I went from Montreal to the East Village and I was forced to move to LA which was very hard for me to do but I lived next to the Cherry Tavern for a while my first years of whole and uh symphony bittersweet symphony oh that's why this is the national anthem of England you may know this is so ridiculous this is why I got myself in trouble is that song got came on at Tom and Jerry's and I started telling him the story about in 1995 or whatever year that was, when this song came out, the MTV people called me and asked me to come host the Verve at Tom and Jerry's.

47:43Chris Black:And so I went, I went walking from my place to go meet these cool, new, wonderful, talented musicians from England. And I was wearing these really insane vintage platform boots. And it was like torrential rain out and I walk into Tom and Jerry's as long as it's very rare for me to be ever embarrassed. I am an embarrassing person. My mother thinks something. So all of that, I'm walking into Tom and Jerry's and I see this cool band and all the MTV people with them. And I do this most insane trip slip with this. My boots, I do a split in front of the verve. They all freeze. And I hold this amazing like wide-legged stance get up and they all applaud me and that's how i made friends

48:33Melissa Auf der Maur:with the bird damn okay did ashcroft so you you ate shit in front of peak richard ashcroft at his

48:39Jason Stewart:hottest and then you were able to pull it together yes at his hottest at that point yes well we were

48:45Melissa Auf der Maur:we were at the show because we went to london to see them open for oasis and we literally saw a woman in front of us googling his age while he was playing because she couldn't believe how good he looked i were looking at her screen and i was like this is that's how good this guy looks i can't

48:59Chris Black:fuck me it's unbelievable i mean it's mainly beyond looks very charismatic you know he's got

49:05Melissa Auf der Maur:a thing i know absolutely but i think it's like some of those guys i just think there's some people that no matter how much they partied they're just touched by god and it sort of works out for them as the physical in the physical sense at least where it looks don't hurt yeah he has that old

49:20Chris Black:like british rocker situation like whatever it is like that stayed like started in like zeppelin years like some kind of but it's also an attraction that has or attractiveness that was kind of locked in by some of the that legacy artist stuff these people who look haggard but

49:36Melissa Auf der Maur:it's sexy and it's blah blah blah i i love nothing more than a haggard man personally as long as my god amazing as long as you know as long as they've come by it honestly okay well

49:46Chris Black:let's let's get into evan dando then oh no no no actually now we're really digressing and well unless this is interesting topics for you i don't want to be well evan dando is a long time

49:57Melissa Auf der Maur:how long gone subject because i'm a huge lemon heads guy and i've also been told by several people in his orbit and my orbit to never have him on this show because it will ruin anything

50:09Chris Black:that i think about him i mean so i've i've evan is a sweetheart but yeah i saw him play once and

50:14Melissa Auf der Maur:I was like, you know what? This is bad. I'm never going to see it again. I'm going to just let it go, and we're going to be fine with that. And I think that was – I felt brave for doing that. I felt strong for being able to resist.

50:24Chris Black:Well, a big part of his book, which is not about Evan at all. He didn't even make the cut, although there's maybe like a descriptive line of a guy like him, is that I am trying to reframe a very misunderstood wild witch named Courtney Love. And a big part of the issue in the demonizing and the burning of the stake of Courtney, other than just general misogyny, is people's lack of understanding around mental illness and addiction. So there's a lot of that in this book. I am a daughter of an addict. I am a not really well-adjusted human being who has been around more drug addicts and defined by more drug addicts and other people's darkness than most people.

51:05Chris Black:And I am an authority on this subject. And so my love of Evan is that I love Evan. He is deeply, deeply emotionally, mentally unwell. You know, he is a real drug addict with real mental instability.

51:22Melissa Auf der Maur:Oh, absolutely. But do you think, do you, I guess, do you think that, because this is something I've tried to, I've been sober for like 10 years. So I've tried to understand this myself. But why are all of my favorites so fucked up? Why is that what I'm, I mean, obviously. A lot of us feel that way, but I am particularly attracted and romanticized.

51:42Jason Stewart:Little Dando, little Spaceman three. Yeah.

51:45Melissa Auf der Maur:Like I, I think all of that stuff is so cool. And I, I don't, I, I know now, I know now that I know that it's not, it's not someone's choice, but like, it seems like, but I mean like you had to be fucked. Like, I can't think of anyone that I love musically that wasn't fucked up during their most prime years. And I don't, that's a problem in a lot of ways.

52:06Chris Black:That's why you don't know my music, because I just support fucked up people. But Billy, I am an anti-romanticized self-destruction person, even though my father was truly one of the most remarkable human beings on the planet. But he drank and smoked himself to death. That's what happened. And some of those people, I don't romanticize it. But what I do know because of my depth of love and engagement in family and music, never in love. I never fell in love with an addict. I never had a love affair with an addict. I've only had it in family and music. And when you're in a band, it's the same thing.

52:41Chris Black:It's like a family dynamic. And you're in that thing where you're the enabler or you're the enemy. You're one or the other. You're either telling the person you're fucked up or you're just letting them be fucked up. and I'm in a constant battle of which side I'm going to be on. And I have like, there's not a part of me that finds it cool, romantic. It's more that I love all people. I love complex people. I have deep, deep love and compassion for anyone and especially ones who are deeply torn inside and struggle to exist, but still manage to live. And yes, sometimes they have to do drugs to get themselves through the day.

53:23Chris Black:I have compassion for this. I have also worked really hard in my life to understand that in people.

53:29Melissa Auf der Maur:But this is what kept you away from it or in any real way.

53:33Chris Black:Oh, I'm a psychedelics person. In my book, my mother, you asked me, what did she find out? I took acid when I was 13. So this is like my journey has been in the expansive spiritual nature of psychedelia. And I don't abuse anything because I'm not an addict. I even like taking drugs of cigarettes, but I don't buy cigarettes. I dabble, but I never opioids.

53:56Melissa Auf der Maur:Yeah, it must be nice. Yeah, it sounds great. Yeah.

53:58Jason Stewart:I don't do Coke, but I rarely buy it.

54:00Melissa Auf der Maur:I take acid three times a year to expand my mind. How about, give me some.

54:06Jason Stewart:Okay, so acid at 13, are we licking frogs current day?

54:11Chris Black:I have not done that one. Okay. Although for my 50th birthday, I did do a big ayahuasca journey specifically to open this book. But that's only one I've only ever done. It's very careful. Just like I believe in magic, dreams, mediums, I do it very selectively and intentionally and when I need to open something up. I don't abuse or use anything regularly. Okay.

54:36Melissa Auf der Maur:And maybe I'm using the wrong term here, but do you think the ayahuasca quote unquote worked for the purpose that you were looking for?

54:42Chris Black:Yes. And I'll tell you the moment I came out of it, the first thing I thought was that should be illegal and most people should not do that.

54:48Melissa Auf der Maur:but it worked really well for me y 'all don't you don't do what i do as i say i am an exception

54:54Chris Black:most people should not do this this is this is insane most people should not do this where did you do it and what did your shaman look like oh my god i've never even talked about this publicly i shouldn't even i've never you're the first people i'm even saying who cares well i the only reason i'm giving it is because we are talking about drugs and addiction and you're sober 10 years this is all important stuff is that some people need gateways at moments and and i very i'm not going to tell you the whole story but it was a curated intimate oh i know it was curated i just mean what country were you in canada they do that shit up there hold on you're in you're

55:35Melissa Auf der Maur:crystal clear canada i was in fucking outer ontario just doing my ayahuasca i was throwing

55:40Chris Black:No, Glacial Mountains, Rocky Mountains, British Columbia.

55:45Jason Stewart:Oh, okay. Were you in Banff? Oh, not Banff. Okay.

55:47Chris Black:Not far from there, but basically a hidden hideaway of New Age freedom.

55:53Melissa Auf der Maur:Okay. You were on some bullshit. I tell you what. I like it. I love this. I love it.

55:59Chris Black:Maybe I'm going into this because I want you to challenge me, and I want you to know it works for me. It works fucking well.

56:05Melissa Auf der Maur:I think like all things, I really believe this to be true, that if you want it to work, that it does. I think that is true.

56:12Chris Black:And also, if you want to be happy, you can be. It's like really quite so... I mean, I understand that some people, there are clinical...

56:20Melissa Auf der Maur:No, I agree with you. I agree with you. I think you... I said this before. I think you wake up every day and choose how you want to feel to some extent. I mean, obviously, there's going to be outside factors.

56:30Chris Black:Perception. Perception is key. And what's actually interesting about psychedelics is most of it has to do with altered perception. And a big part of getting through the day is seeing your day through a certain lens of gratitude. Hey, wow, I'm alive. But also, side note, I do like people, even fucked up people. I find them inspiring and interesting. I am very compassionate. I understand if someone's a fucking psycho, they probably weren't loved very well, or they were abused or something happened in there. So I'm always looking at the many layers. I'm so glad I don't look at the world in a one dimensional like frame or else life would, you know, then actually recently I was having a debate about this and I very courageously, I really am not afraid to die.

57:18Chris Black:I'm actually like seeing that, like turning the other side of 50 is me just like walking gracefully to my death. And someone said, but well, you're not afraid to die. I said, no, how it would ruin my life if I was afraid to die. I literally have to live this life.

57:34Melissa Auf der Maur:Your third eye is fucking wide open. Your shit is open.

57:38Jason Stewart:Whereas I don't have time. I'm too busy hustling and setting up my classes. I don't have time to worry about dying.

57:45Chris Black:Hustle. You know, oh my god. There's that song. Everyone hustle. Rick Ross. I truly have considered because Jen, who's only reading my book now because she's doing my Q &A with me in my hometown for the book, even the good girls will cry if anybody listening knows why we're here. I have a book. Jen is interviewing me. She's reading it. And she's like, yeah, your new age shit is all in there, but you are hustling. And I'm like, yes, actually, I always have been busting my fucking ass and connecting the dots. I met this person. I'm going to write a letter. I'm going to get this to happen. Like I make shit happen without, I'm not sitting meditating.

58:25Chris Black:I'm making it happen like today with you right now and the Hustling song I want to have is my walkout piece for my

58:33Jason Stewart:that'd be a real twist I was going to play one of your solo songs at the end of the episode maybe a whole song a little Malibu a little Violet but no no no we're going to play Rick Ross's Hustling and I'll find a nice trap remix of it

58:45Chris Black:I literally because I have a DJ set that I bring around to like my art center I do the after party dark wave it's majorly Depeche Mode Sisters of Mercy I sometimes I'm just throwing a bit of Bo Burnham. I have like a rape, but that song I put in. Bo Burnham the comedian? Yes, I'm in love with him, actually.

59:04Jason Stewart:Sisters of Mercy into the Bo Burnham. I'm not ready. What the fuck does Bo Burnham make music?

59:09Chris Black:I thought he was an actor. Oh my God. You have not listened to his album?

59:13Jason Stewart:No, I'm good.

59:14Chris Black:That came with, you know, Inside. You are looking the toads. This TV special he made during COVID? No, no, I saw it.

59:22Melissa Auf der Maur:I remember that. I remember that. This is one of the weirdest things ever said on this podcast. I have to say, Sisters of Mercy. Did you get that shit on vinyl?

59:29Chris Black:I did. Double box set on vinyl.

59:34Jason Stewart:You got double so you could cut it?

59:36Chris Black:Oh, my God. And then, guys, I live in quaint, cute upstate, right? I love Bo Burnham. I have the double box set vinyl. Bo Burnham and Phoebe Bridgers are walking down the street of Hudson. like nine months ago. I do a U-turn in my car. I get out and I walk up to them. He's like a shy weirdo. She probably is the one usually being approached. I'm like, what are you doing in Hudson? I'm a huge fan. He's very awkward. I'm like, I have an art center here. I would love for you to play. He's like, I don't really tour anymore. I'm like, I know, I know. I saw your special. I know you're afraid of touring, but if you want to perform, you should.

1:00:18Chris Black:He totally like nice, but walks away a week later because I guess they're looking for houses here. Who knows? He walks into this restaurant. I'm like, it's me. Remember me? He's so afraid of me. And do you know what I say? I bought your vinyl.

1:00:33Jason Stewart:You're the worst. Okay, next time. This is what I would have led with. You know, if I see some fucking cat lady running at me with my double vinyl, this is what you lead with. Hey, bitch, I was in Hole and Smashing Pumpkins.

1:00:48Melissa Auf der Maur:And they go, oh, okay, never mind. You got to start with that. I know. I don't know how to do that. I don't do that very well. I appreciate that about you, and I think it's the right way to do that. But in some certain instances -

1:00:59Jason Stewart:It's a hard thing to do in certain situations. You have to identify yourself. Otherwise, people will be like, oh, here's another fan that's going to ruin my day.

1:01:07Melissa Auf der Maur:It is cool, though. I bet that the amount of times that people approach those two and they're there for Bo and not Phoebe is you're one in a million. And that makes you special in your life. He's so cool.

1:01:18Chris Black:he but so in on his album when you go to your itunes you might as well play this so we're gonna play rick ross and biden go and jeff bezos he has b-sides that are these outtakes that are dance songs that i literally play on my dance and one of it they're really gonna make me vote for joe biden it's like the most absurd incredible commentary on modern life in 2022 when he made

1:01:45Melissa Auf der Maur:okay i can't i'm never trying to think about 2022 again but i guess that actually it was 2020 is that

1:01:51Chris Black:the horrible election no i don't i don't they're all bad but anyway i could have used ai technology

1:01:58Jason Stewart:to figure out what music would be the most upstate new york arts and cultural center dj set playlist to be and a thousand of our greatest minds would never choose the joe biden song from the bo burnham covid special to be in the mix okay breathtaking stuff i thought you're gonna play like tool remixes that are like drum and bass but no no no what's up with this photo but what's up with the

1:02:24Chris Black:photo book who's putting it out i don't know what you know about me now because you didn't did you read on wikipedia that i started as a photographer i went to i did know that about you so and i was you know i said no to joining whole when i was invited because i wanted to go do my master's in photography at RISD. So in my mind, I'm a fine arts photographer who got hijacked, and that's all cool. But I took a roll of film a day on tour. I have 15 ,000 negatives. I took a photo of every single. So again, it's kind of like the book. I have to purge it. I have to purge it. Otherwise, it's just sitting collecting dust.

1:03:01Chris Black:So Delmonico, DAP, they're a big art publisher, But it's coming hand in hand with a museum exhibit. So the exhibit opens in Toronto at this beautiful big museum called the AGO. I know that museum. It will tour places. So what's exciting is I'll get to tour internationally with the exhibit. And the book is a companion piece to the memoir in that it's the visual version of my obsessive chronicling of like, I'm going to tell you everything that ever happened in my life in the 90s.

1:03:30Melissa Auf der Maur:And none of these pictures have been seen. Except for Evan Dando. None of these pictures have ever been seen before.

1:03:35Chris Black:That's right. I could say it's a time capsule, a little bit like my stories where I just sort of like, ugh, get it away. I just put it away. And then it was like burning a hole in like my, I got to like do something with it. And so I've been for the last five years scanning, archiving, databasing. Now you can go to like a computer program and be like, hotel room, Courtney's butt, Marilyn Manson. Like you can get every single category that could have been in my, like so many. so they're called search words yes is that what a cue code it's whatever they are yeah yeah so

1:04:10Melissa Auf der Maur:you're saying everything is cataloged as long as it's not maryland manson's butt i'm happy yeah that's fair there's a lot of butts i'd want to see from your era but maryland's is not top top butt

1:04:18Chris Black:yeah so i did all the work on it and then through scanning and categorizing and coming up with clearly like i have as few reoccurring perspectives which is the state like so the audience is like my one of my number one muses photographing the fans is like there's a whole section of the book and the exhibit that's an ode to the fans like just that undivided attention

1:04:39Melissa Auf der Maur:because you played some you played some fucked up big yeah oh yeah between hole and the pumpkins i mean like festivals in europe in the 90s is like as big as it is this is my first show with hole

1:04:50Chris Black:in front of 65 000 people uh i have played six concerts in my life at this moment i am through the looking glass, joined a giant armist band, and my seventh concert on the bass guitar is in front of that audience, which is an ocean. Yes. Okay.

1:05:07Melissa Auf der Maur:Did you know the songs? How well would you say you knew the songs?

1:05:10Chris Black:I listened to the Live Through This album on the flight on my way to meet them, where I had already told them I don't know if I'm interested. I listened to them, and then all of a sudden, it was like a magic wand. Something crazy happened where basically I understood, fuck it, I need to join. These people need me. This is my destiny. This is beyond music. This poor woman and her daughter and this cool drummer, they have nobody. They have nobody. So I joined because, and I had four days to rehearse and I didn't make one mistake. So some people who interview me about music talk to me about bass playing.

1:05:49Melissa Auf der Maur:I'll ask Courtney. Let me ask Courtney if you made a mistake or not. You know what I mean? She doesn't remember shit.

1:05:54Jason Stewart:I know that you have a background in music. You grew up playing music your whole life. You've also said that playing bass is sort of known as the easiest instrument on stage. So with your musical genius mixed in with the ease of bass playing, you're able to pick it up on a Southwest flight out of Toronto. No problemo.

1:06:18Chris Black:It was Montreal Air Canada, and you are the researched one. Yes.

1:06:22Melissa Auf der Maur:Just a wee bit. Just a wee bit. that's that's a lot of people that's a lot of people to play different but you were you nervous

1:06:30Chris Black:or not even nervous no not even no it's actually harder to play in front of 20 people that kind of makes sense actually yeah that makes sense it's actually easier that with the moment i got out there i realized this isn't real this is insane they can't even see if i'm sweating like i can't even see there it's such a and apparently there's a section in here like someone quoted it back to the other day is i use that as an analogy of what fame is it's like exposed yet not at all personal it's like this distanced it's like those size that scale yeah you're protected it's almost like

1:07:05Jason Stewart:they can't hurt you exactly technically said and when you're in a crowd with 20 people when the guy yells show me your tits you're looking right at us and and you know at a giant festival in in budapest yeah it's not like a real person exactly so yeah and that was it was easy for me to enter that realm but then also between my i grew up in the public eye on a small scale

1:07:29Chris Black:but i was like on the campaign trails on my father's tv show and radio show my father was larger than life and a remarkably charismatic wild human so i was groomed for easy like i really It was so easy. Whoa, whoa. We don't use that word on how long gone. I know that. We don't use that word on how long gone. I actually shouldn't have said primed, whatever.

1:07:47Jason Stewart:You were marinated.

1:07:48Chris Black:I was, it was very easy for me, put it that way. Yeah. Just like be in the moment. Yeah.

1:07:54Melissa Auf der Maur:I think that, so what's up you, but you, most of, I guess a lot of these people, do you still have relationships with them or at least it's cool? Yeah. You've managed to keep in touch and like stay.

1:08:04Chris Black:Oh my God. No, no. I'm closer to Billy and Courtney now than I was them. I was just in LA last week doing last month doing his podcast having tea with her we truly this is the where the fun stuff actually starts the fact that she's not dead she's alive which is a miracle the fact that she's making a new record in her 60s the fact that I sang on it and we get along

1:08:26Melissa Auf der Maur:and I'm rooting for her and she's rooting for me rumors are saying that it's good all my sources

1:08:30Chris Black:are telling me it's good it is good I went out of love of our like our history you were done no

1:08:36Melissa Auf der Maur:But then you were like, it's good.

1:08:38Chris Black:Truly. I'm so excited for her. It's amazing.

1:08:42Melissa Auf der Maur:I mean, we're all excited. I think there's certain people, for whatever reason, if they stick around this long, I think culture at large wants them to win. You know what I mean? You want to see it work out.

1:08:52Chris Black:If they can live through this literally, she better win because she should be dead. She's having her moment for sure, and I'm so excited for her. Or does that ever put the piece inside of her? No, but she will at least be showered with love, not like literally shotgun shells that they used to throw on stage.

1:09:13Melissa Auf der Maur:But you guys having a relationship warms my heart, honestly. Because it feels like that's like, that feels impossible, I think, when you're looking from the outside or you know any of the history.

1:09:24Chris Black:Yeah, and that's a huge part of the book is that no one can put that, our relationship as a symbol of like highest, frequency of woman relationships with each other with it which could have gone terribly wrong so many and we didn't speak for 15 years so and actually we did go wrong for a bit and had she died in that time yeah i remember the whole time thinking if she dies i'm gonna have lots of unresolved shit okay she better not die while i'm not talking so much to yell at her before she goes

1:09:54Jason Stewart:well yeah you can't die i got a bone to pick we're we're we're in the time where everyone's cashing in on the reunion shows obviously i'm sure you've had a couple offers over the years or heard some rumblings have we gotten any closer to a whole reunion show or have there been any

1:10:11Chris Black:offers that i know you don't do it for the money but you know good memory there um is uh the answer is genuine i know that she said a bunch of stuff on the internet this week um but it is especially for two people like me and her she's like a wild card i am careful there is no you're a card she's

1:10:33Melissa Auf der Maur:a wild card how would i how would you describe yourself careful just careful i'm a careful gal

1:10:38Chris Black:at the end of the day sensitive i don't even know what i'm never used i am not i don't know what i

1:10:44Melissa Auf der Maur:am but i'm not a wild card actually um no you don't like me as such is i i honestly can tell

1:10:51Chris Black:it's an unknown just like when does love strike when does magic lights it's an unknown I and it's it could happen but it's not planned that is for sure yeah yeah I mean I think that like

1:11:05Melissa Auf der Maur:part of me is so impressed by the resistance uh because it's so cool but the other part of me is I think people should be able to sort of and once again we know it's not about the money but there's like a level of me that thinks you deserve it you know what i mean because you you did it and it's like now there's more people that would appreciate you know it's a different

1:11:25Chris Black:time people would pay whatever i mean there's no question ahead of time women here the music

1:11:30Jason Stewart:still holds up just as well you know yeah and one of my classic record is a classic record

1:11:35Chris Black:classic record i thought you said akashic records i don't know if you know that but that's another but um so some of your listeners might know but i'm going to tell you one of the most proud moments that have happened in the last year is bringing my teenage daughter who has found her way through the love of music through her own search that billy eilish's and the olivia rodrigo amazingness and all the powerful talented women out there making music and uh i got to bring her to meet some of these girls and olivia rodrigo said to her to my daughter without your mother we wouldn't have this and that was like okay finally finally i don't have to explain my

1:12:08Melissa Auf der Maur:daughter that we did work really hard and that no seriously this shit was cool i'm not i'm serious

1:12:14Chris Black:i've never even tried she does not like she's not interested but olivia rodrigo said that during like

1:12:20Melissa Auf der Maur:little pin drop olivia olivia rodrigo from all accounts also has amazing taste in a way that that whole story about her bringing the breeders and like how you know the whole the whole story

1:12:31Chris Black:behind that was so great yeah she's also well she's surrounded you can tell she's like a level when management and producers are together they're guiding her well too of like yeah show you know so yes wait a second i know you have to go i have to go what did we not talk about other than

1:12:46Jason Stewart:all of it well i had one more question on the subject of olivia rodrigo and billy eilish okay when i was doing some research a couple years ago you said rock music saves lives pop music is fun but it does not save lives. Do you still believe that?

1:13:04Chris Black:Well, it's such a long thing. I mean, the main thing is, do I think that Billie Eilish is definitely saving girls' spirits in bedrooms? Yes. Music has the power to save everybody and anyone. Classical music. Music saves lives. I have a personal love and need for rock music as a visceral explosion of things that are scary, things that are complicated things that, you know, pain is in rock music and in torture is in rock music. And I'm not saying that you can't also write a poetic story about a tortured thing. But for me, the lack of visceral rock music that has happened in the last decade or two makes me sad for people who could really use it like that kind of like anger, like that rage that Courtney gave people and that Kurt, of course, gave people.

1:13:56Chris Black:That is something that people need. And look at us now. We need to scream our heads off. I have my own way of working through pain and rage, but some people really need that visceral thing. And I do find the packaged, glossy, poppy, everything is not helping people tap into their dark side. Because otherwise, dark sides are going to be hidden over here. And then it's going to come out in shadows. What are you talking about?

1:14:23Melissa Auf der Maur:We have dark sides now. Machine Gun Kelly is super dark. Oh, yeah, yeah. No, it's true. We can't discount.

1:14:28Chris Black:No, there is. Well, sorry. There was plenty of dark sides. I guess I mean through analog. Just like tradition of whatever Sabbath was doing. I don't know. I think that all music can save lives and all arts can too. Books maybe, paintings, movies, all that. But there's this particular frequency in what rock music can do for those playing and those receiving it. And I am an ambassador of that special magic.

1:15:00Jason Stewart:Yeah, I mean, I think that type of hard, angry music exists in the underground and it's bigger than ever. but we don't have it in the forefront the way we did in the 90s with you know metallica and right you know rage against the machine and all these bands that were all truly raging and truly

1:15:19Chris Black:the biggest acts of all time exactly yeah we lost that that was too scary we just need to have like raging tech guys now that do it instead like i find that so sad that like the mainstream i agree

1:15:32Melissa Auf der Maur:I think of Sam Altman as our Rage Against the Machine, kind of.

1:15:36Jason Stewart:Now that we got Green Day playing the Super Bowl with a lesbian wig on, a lot has changed and things need to... Is it what?

1:15:45Chris Black:Is he wearing a wig? Okay.

1:15:47Jason Stewart:It's not a wig. It's his real hair, but it does look like Ellen. Yeah. Metallica is playing at the Sphere. Tool, too. Tool makes sense from a visual.

1:15:57Melissa Auf der Maur:You're probably going to do a little... We ban Tool talk on this podcast. I'm a Tool head. bro awful band all right Melissa thank you for joining us that was fun thank you the book is out the 17th I will buy my copy proudly at a independent bookseller thank you I will listen

1:16:14Jason Stewart:to it on Spotify to make sure they get a nickel and you'll see because I won't be able to listen

1:16:18Chris Black:to it again because there's parts of that book I could not read without crying and I could not like I just could not get it done without and the engineers who are crying too said well we'll just

1:16:27Melissa Auf der Maur:keep it oh yeah you got to keep it that's what people want that's why I can't never listen to an audio book. I don't want to start crying. Yeah. Alright, well thank you for joining us. We appreciate it. Thank you.

1:16:36Jason Stewart:Our pleasure. I loved it. Come upstate.

1:16:39Melissa Auf der Maur:Yeah, we'll come by. Yeah, I will. I'll eventually be forced to do that. I'll see you later.

1:16:44Jason Stewart:I'll see you later. I'll see you later. I'll see you later. I'll see you later.

1:16:55I'll see you later.

1:17:00Jason Stewart:This episode is brought to you by Athletic Brewing Company.

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