917. - Ruthie Rogers

9:40Ruthie Rogers:that you should be able to hit at least three of ten even if you're blindfolded even if you're blindfolded and spun around five times before they give you the AR like yeah I mean I would agree

9:51Jason Stewart:not to make light of an awful frightening situation but you know and then you can put on your your jbp tinfoil hat and say you know like is this some you know is did spencer pratt pay this psyop situation you know did did he pay this person to make it seem like karen bass's los angeles is now an unsafe place to live for celebrities you know and he's going to come in and clean up the streets you know if i'm if i'm mayor no one is going to shoot up uh r &b royalty on my watch, something like that. Is it a means to get more people to leave California?

10:29Ruthie Rogers:You're always cracking the third eye. I think it's just a crazy person who likes Rihanna too much is probably what's going on. Why not both? All right, we do have a guest today, legendary chef and proprietor of the River Cafe, Ruthie Rogers, fellow podcaster. She has a new cookbook, Table 4 at the River Cafe. She did that great lemon-based cookbook with Ed Ruscha a couple months ago as well. It's probably my favorite restaurant in the world. And I just love talking to a fellow podcaster when it's not their full-time job.

11:02Jason Stewart:Yeah, absolutely. But I mean, I guess their part-time job is selling books. And that's the main reason why we talk to most people in our lives, isn't it, Chris? God damn it, isn't that right? All right, let's cross the pond and give Ruthie a jingle. This episode of How Long Gone is sponsored by BetterHelp. help chris do you know what is happening right now it's international women's day do i know

11:25Ruthie Rogers:what's happening of course i do it's marked on all of my calendars physical and digital my therapist

11:29Jason Stewart:is a woman of course i would never talk to a man about my life but so many great women in our lives you know our moms our sisters our friends our partners our neighbors our reply girls they're all important and the roles they play in our lives. And we thank them for therapizing us and dealing with us. Nasty ass man, year over year, month after month. Thank you for teaching me how to set a healthy boundary and then forget about it in a couple of months as well as just the overall wellbeing of mankind in general.

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14:06Ruthie Rogers:What's up, Ruthie? How are you?

14:07Chris Black:What's up is that I'm in Claridge's because given my life, I didn't think I'd get home in time to do this at the house. And so I called at my friends at Claridge's and said, can I have a room? So I'm sitting in this unbelievable suite, which I might never leave, and just sit here for the next 10 days and just stay in Claridge's. But that's what, you know, it's been having friends in the business.

14:32Ruthie Rogers:I would have to say that, yeah, that might be the coolest opening response to what's up that I've ever heard. And, you know, we've done this for a long time. All right, so you're saying that your commute was looking a little dodgy. Yes. So you called Claridge's and said, I need some space to podcast, and they blessed you with the suite is what.

14:50Chris Black:Yeah, that's how it rolls. Yeah, they were great. I mean, the thing is that I saw that one of your questions was, what's the most misread view of your industry? And I would say, without getting too serious, that, you know, people always say, when Rose and I started River Cafe, it's, you know, it's so competitive and people have your throats and the industry is, you know, one restaurant against another. And I think this is an example of all of us helping each other out. You know, I find it really if I'm low on napkins or I'm worried about, you know, the ravioli machine or whatever it is, I think we're certainly my experience.

15:28Chris Black:Either people feel really sorry for me and think we're hopeless, but it's been a very supportive, you know, industry for me.

15:35Ruthie Rogers:Yeah, because this has happened to me before where I've been rushing to podcast and I'm more I'll have to do it in the car or something. You know what I mean? Something a little less comfortable and the Wi-Fi is a little weaker. But I think that is a good, that's a great example of people helping people. True hospitality.

15:50Chris Black:Yeah, it was really nice. And I do love clarages, yeah.

15:54Ruthie Rogers:Who doesn't? What is this? Okay, so you're going to use this for a couple hours and then head home. You're not going to just stay the night, are you? Don't get crazy.

16:01Chris Black:No, no, I can't. I've got, you know, I've got a really, I've got tonight I'm going to the DCCC, the Democratic Congressional. Conference. committee is having I've done lots of them before I did one a few I did two with Nancy Pelosi at our house and a couple for Adam Schiff you know and times like these and so this time they want to do it in the River Cafe so we gave them the private dining room that seats about 40 Sylvia's and John Kerry is here and so we're going to go I was going to have dinner with him so we're going to go and talk to them and say how much we need them want them and And, you know, so that's what I'm, I can't stay in this suite very long, unfortunately.

16:45Jason Stewart:Okay. Well, from a food perspective, is the prefix menu different for the DNC versus the RNC?

16:54Chris Black:What's the RNC?

16:56Jason Stewart:Republican National Convention?

16:57Chris Black:I know what it is. Yeah, I know.

16:59Jason Stewart:Okay, so are the racists eating different food than the not racist people?

17:04Chris Black:Well, I have to say that I don't, you know, I don't know what they eat. But I'll just be positive on this, that everything I'm doing right now is for the Democratic. You know, we have to get Congress back. And so I'm probably writing, you know, the script for my lack of entry into our country. But I am, yeah, we're concerned, aren't we? I mean, aren't we? Aren't we worried? Yeah. And I've always been a Democrat. And I've always, you know, living abroad, you just want to be connected. You know, no matter how far away you are. Well, I do. and how the trouble the times are. So I've always been active in both countries, in Britain and in New York.

17:49Chris Black:Anyway, we haven't even said hello yet. Hello, how are you?

17:53Ruthie Rogers:Well, it's hello. We're good. Hi, I'm Jason. That's Chris. This is how we get it started, usually. We're happy to just get it going.

18:00Chris Black:Oh, pulled open, yeah.

18:02Ruthie Rogers:Yeah, when we're talking to another professional podcaster, it's hard to not just jump into it.

18:07Chris Black:Yeah. Well, mine, we always, since day one, I've done this little introduction. And I do it more, I don't usually say, you know, somebody's just been in this movie or they've worked in this company or whatever. I do it as a way of connecting with the person who's sitting next to me. I was saying to them so they can hear how happy, you know, what it means to me. They can trust me. It's just so nice to have them here. Which you can say to me. I would listen to that. Well, we actually, funnily enough. I kind of wrote one myself, yeah.

18:43Ruthie Rogers:We do our intro before the guest comes on. Oh, they've already heard it. So it's a surprise. No, they haven't heard it. I'm saying we do it 15, we get on 15 minutes before you get on. We talk, we catch up, we introduce you, and then you join us is how we do it.

18:58Jason Stewart:You haven't heard it, but the audience, I guess, tomorrow when they're listening, will have already heard it on Friday when it comes out.

19:03Chris Black:Okay, that's kind of different because I think what I find is that, you know, and I always say it honestly, but if I really care about somebody, I say it. And then it's like, okay, you know, we can get on with it now. We can get on with it.

19:18Ruthie Rogers:What if you don't care about them, though? You know what I mean? Are you able, you can, because this happens to us.

19:22Chris Black:I have cared about 210 people, I can honestly say. That's how many podcasts I've done, and I've cared about every one of them.

19:30Ruthie Rogers:All right, we're coming up on like 916 or something. I know. Then I got to say, I might care about 200 of 900.

19:35Chris Black:Yeah, you got to 200, then you stopped caring.

19:38Jason Stewart:We care about you, though, Ruthie. To be clear, we care about you, and we are honored to have you on the pod. It's really nice.

19:44Chris Black:I want to say thank you for having me. It's nice to be this side of the table. Everybody tells me how incredible you are and how lucky I am to be on your podcast. So thank you.

19:57Ruthie Rogers:Oh, wow.

19:58Jason Stewart:Hey, that's nice to hear. So Carrie, Pelosi, all these people are talking about how long gone. That's nice of them. Yeah, they all are. Or is it different people?

20:05Ruthie Rogers:Everybody.

20:06Chris Black:Everybody.

20:07Ruthie Rogers:So why did you start? What made you start a podcast? Because I imagine, were you a big listener of podcasts, or was it just something that came across your desk? Not at the time.

20:18Chris Black:I think what happened, we did ours. I started in 2021, I think was our first one. It was just around the time of COVID, you know? Yeah, us too, us too. We were still, yeah. And the feeling was, I just, you know, how do we reach out to the people who can't come to the River Cafe? How do we connect? And I came to a restaurant years ago in Brooklyn. Somebody took me to Roberto's. And I remember seeing that they had a radio station. I thought, that is like such a great idea. Because, you know, very often in London, people are coming to London on their way to somewhere else or to present a book or a movie or a film.

20:56Chris Black:A film or a movie. A film. and a play. But then you realize that people are not going to want to stop on their way to their table and talk or come in. So I put that aside. But then when COVID happened, we really, I think, it was just a way of connecting. The first idea I had was that we could just read a recipe every day. Every day we would get somebody to read a recipe. and you know I think a recipe I would say is part science part poetry and if you had a great voice reading it to you that would be kind of fun and then Graydon Carter a good friend of mine said that's a good idea Ruthie but I think you need to segue into something else you know it's got to be more than a recipe so then we started well how about if we really talk to some people through the lens of food through the lens you know that what are your memories there's a program here called Desert Island Discs which does it through music and so what if we did it through food did your mother cook, did your father cook did you, you know, how old were you when you had your first glass of wine did they entertain, were you included did you sit at the top of the stairs and listen you know this, when you went to boarding school so many kids in London what did you eat when you left home who cooked, you know that did you ever seduce anybody with food Oh, don't ask Jason

22:22Ruthie Rogers:Don't ask Jason that We only have an hour here He seduced me

22:24Jason Stewart:I seduced my wife with some mushy peas last night There you go Half mushy pea, half edamame, of course

22:30Chris Black:Yeah, there you go So that's really how it started

22:33Ruthie Rogers:Yeah, I mean, Desert Island Discs really is sort of the blueprint for that kind of You know what it is? I think when you have an idea or a theme It really has to be able to work with every single person that you could ever talk to For it to last I think that's the hard part I think music and food are the two things that people probably can relate to the most.

22:53Chris Black:Yeah. And I think certainly we found that people, I would say that if I were to ask David Beckham if we could do a podcast about football or Paul McCartney about the Beatles or Nancy Pelosi about, you know.

23:06Jason Stewart:About the stock market.

23:07Chris Black:Congress or impeachment, whatever. Yeah. You know, but the fact that we say we're only going to talk about food, I think let people.

23:15Jason Stewart:a sigh of relief usually when they because everyone has a comfort food everyone has a favorite album all that stuff but um speaking of recipes you you you mentioned um your partner your partner rose she and also sorry speaking of grayden carter um rose was originally at nell's

23:35Chris Black:uh keith mcnally's spot in new york with keith mcnally yeah and when i met rose well i knew rose for years before, and my husband, Richard, went to art school with her. And so she was always in our lives, and she was this incredible woman. And then I knew that when we went to live in Paris, when Richard was doing the Pompidou, she was going to New York to work with Nell. She'd kind of brought Nell up. She lived in her house, and so I think when Nell went to New York to do the club with Keith and Brian, Rose kind of came along to say, okay, I'll help you cook. It was as simple as that.

24:16Jason Stewart:Yeah, everyone was really into the Keith McNally book last year. And I personally, you know, hearing the stories of Nels, I was really envious of people who got to go there at that time. And I really love the Democratic door policy, charging the Rolling Stones five bucks a head to come in. And they're selling burgers and stuff like that. Do you have any? Did you go back then?

24:41Chris Black:I've never been to Nell's, no. I really met more. When Rose came back from doing New York and then I came back from Paris, she was cooking. I went back to working. I worked in the office as a graphic designer, and she came back and really wanted to cook. So she worked with Antonio Carluccio in his restaurant. She worked in Montcourt 192. And so when the idea of doing the River Cafe kind of presented itself, she was my first call and said how about it as a as a friend of grayden carter's did he make you choose between you and keith in terms of friendship no no and they're good friends i think all that's

25:23Jason Stewart:you know yeah i think they're i think they're friendly and now i know they had some rivalry

25:27Chris Black:over the years yeah yeah no i love them both it's nice when people can squash it you know as we get

25:32Ruthie Rogers:older in age you realize maybe it doesn't matter quite as much as you thought it did exactly yeah

25:38Jason Stewart:I wanted to talk a little bit about primary colors with you. Chris and I were just in Paris and we went to this fashion show for Loewe and there's a lot of primary colors in play. and I was thinking at the time it's just about how there's such a wide spectrum of different primary colors like you just think of like the blue the green you know just the standard color but there's so much nuance in between and I feel like you're you're a master of the primary color and I wanted to know um how often do you replace the the carpet at the restaurant and how amazing does it feel when you got a brand new one in there well it does we just replaced it over

26:21Chris Black:christmas the river cafe is in um a warehouse yeah in on the thames in london and you know i just feel we all feel very strongly that you can be kind of rough on the outside in terms of being in terms of being a warehouse and industrial a bit but when you walk in it has to be um you know rigorously clean clear and not creaking and not not working and it has to be warm so we invest a lot in ourselves in terms of um we painted the wood oven we replaced the carpet we have a new floor in the kitchen we have a new front door so that's constantly um being done and in terms of the colors you know we have the kind of range of colors that we've had for the last you know since of fire, I guess, since the beginning, but also particularly since the last 2008 when we had our fire.

27:17Chris Black:We have a yellow pass. We have a blue carpet. We have a pink wood oven. And so I think that's kind of the color. And then we have color that we ask the waiters. They don't have uniforms, but we ask everyone to wear a solid color shirt. and so you see these blocks of color moving through the room to identify who your waiter is and so I think color is something Richard really cared about in his architecture he had the pompadour the back of the wall all the services are painted red, blue green denoting heating water and electricity, everything is in those pipes and so for him color is always important do you think that that wood oven is too

28:11Jason Stewart:big every time i'm in there i think about how giant that thing is it really steals the gaze and it's it's amazing and awe-inspiring but do you need that much square footage well the wood oven

28:24Chris Black:that we had before that i think was pretty much the same size but it was in a wall you know so So we just took the wall away. Got it, got it, got it. And we love it. You know, it is. I mean, what I like about the wood oven, and I haven't thought about whether it's too big, but I know there's a lot of things we can't put it. You know, we don't make pizzas in it anymore because it's hard to get too many pizzas in it. We make turpid. We do fish. We do meat. And we do, you know, the River Cafe has three fish on the menu and three meat on the menu. So we'll do, for instance, turbot in the wood oven, sea bass on the grill, and maybe scallops or mungfish on the top of the stove.

29:09Chris Black:And then we'll do always a game bird in the wood oven and beef on the grill and then soaked meat on the top of the stove. It's a short, sourdough menu, and we change it, as you know, twice a day.

29:25Jason Stewart:Yeah. Yeah, I was, sorry to interrupt, Kristen. No, no, go ahead, go ahead. When I was reading the intro of the book, you described the food you ate growing up, and I felt like it really perfectly described the food that you serve at the River Cafe, which is unambitious, but considerably prepared. And I think that really is just the best piece of fish you can buy, olive oil, lemon, salt, anything else will only take away from it. And it's just a style of, I guess, virtuous eating that a lot of people are really drawn to.

30:04Chris Black:I think that, you know, there's so many ways and so many interpretations of food. And I think actually the hardest, no, everything is difficult. You know, making a beurre blanc in Paris is something I love eating and it's difficult. But I also think making a piece of fish with nothing but some herbs and lemon on it, capers, you know, just a few ingredients is even harder. And it demands that you can't hide, you know, there's no way to hide. And so what you have on the plate, but it's complex. I think our cooking is certainly has a complexity to it. And, you know, it has simplicity and publicity.

30:43Chris Black:Very often I'll look at a menu and I'll think, what can we take off? You know, what can we take off this plate? Or what can we take off? You know, you can make a tomato pasta in any way. You know, we know that if we make ours with a tomato sauce with just really fantastic tomatoes, tomatoes from Puglia in the jars with no juice. And then you have seasonal, you know, basil, which comes from Liguria, so it's kind of peppery. And we use whole cloves of garlic. We don't slice it, so we really brown the garlic and get it soft. You know, that takes a long time to learn how to make that, I'd say. But it only has three ingredients.

31:22Jason Stewart:When you were younger, were you less like that? I've found that as I've gotten older, I'm realizing that things taste better. Even if, you know, just take the onion and the garlic out of a dish that you would just sort of instinctually automatically put in anything and realizing that things taste better with the less ingredients. Or like sometimes white vinegar is better than, you know, the red wine vinegar or champagne vinegar or some crazy flavored one. You know what I mean? Yeah.

31:50Chris Black:I think I always like, I don't know. I think I still have to say, you know, I really like eating all kinds of food. You know, I like, you know, I think as long as it's cooked well, then, you know, you can go as far as you want. personally i'm not keen on a lot of different things going on you know on the plate or in the meal but you know go for it sometimes it's just exciting to see what people are doing yeah okay

32:19Jason Stewart:um i guess in terms of uh confidence in the kitchen yourself when you're cooking you mentioned um learning how to cook from julia child recipes and uh you mentioned if you kind of follow them If you followed those Julia Child recipes to a T, you never really fucked up a dish. It usually ended up working out. How long did it take you to get to the point where you could stop following recipes to the T and kind of go off on your own journey?

32:47Chris Black:That's a good question. I think, as I said, Julia Child is like being able to write free prose after you can know the real meaning of a sonnet by Shakespeare. knowing how to, you know, Joseph Albers could do a painting with the color yellow, you know, but he could do incredible life drawings. So I think in cooking, for me, I think it's about Julia Child, you know, she would say, you know, take a tomato, you know, three inches wide and four inches high and put it in a saucepan that is, you know, one inch of olive oil. and it was just very scientific. Now, I think there are scientific cookbooks which can be rubbish.

33:36Science doesn't give you the answer.

33:39Chris Black:But what she did was I think she taught a generation of cooks so they could make a souffle. And then, as you say, once you've made that souffle, then you might put less spinach and more cheese or you might do two souffles together or you can then move on. But it's very good having that structure, I think.

33:59Ruthie Rogers:baseline yeah you need the structure i need a lot of structure if you ask anybody in my life

34:05Chris Black:that's why i'm sitting at claridge is having not charged my phone and not being home all that

34:10Ruthie Rogers:structure no i i guess that when i when i go to the river cafe you know in the in the winter months versus the summer months you know in the summer i noticed that obviously it's all happening outside and if you it almost doubles the space of the restaurant like the inside the restaurant is not empty but it's obviously it's people are choosing to sit outside but it seems like you're almost like doubling the amount of business you can do for those three or four months is that not

34:33Chris Black:necessarily because what we do is we because we only have a kitchen a certain size sure so so we can't double it but what we do know is how to do it so that we can take care of more people a lot more people but very often you'll see that inside is pretty empty and we put everybody outside. So it's not as if you're doubling it up, you're not inside full and outside full. It can happen on a Sunday lunch that we do do that. We enjoy doing that. It's fun and it's demanding. But you just have to be careful that you're not doing too many people. And it's something that I've really learned, which is you always want to squeeze one more table in.

35:19Chris Black:and actually it's better not to because somebody suffers including the waiters

35:26Ruthie Rogers:not just the staff

35:28Jason Stewart:it might not be worth it for the extra seven quid in the pocket at the end of the day if everyone's suffering I guess speaking of you mentioning that there's all this chaos going on figuring out where to put people on a busy Sunday brunch day but you said you have a lot of fun doing it and I heard you talking about valentine's day typically a day that the restaurant industry often fears and does not look forward to and you were you were you mentioned that you love working valentine's day and i was wondering is is river cafe just one of those places that is just fun to work at or were you just lying to be nice on a podcast that's probably lying to be nice

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39:05Chris Black:I have to say that for me, the River Cafe has been always a place that I want to be in. I think if people who work for you know that you want to be, they want to be there. The joy of the people who are eating there, it's where I go. And particularly in the last few years, my husband died. And I know that either I want to be in my home or I want to be with my children or my friends. But for me, walking in those doors to the River Cafe, it's just I'm so lucky. I'm so lucky to walk there and work with the young people. I work with the people I work with. The people come in to eat. The problem is always a problem and something that needs to be solved.

39:49and so um and cooking and you know having a restaurant i don't know you feel that you are

39:57Chris Black:giving back you know you're creating a place where perhaps people can come in and feel taken care of i've seen it's very theatrical you know you have people who cry in restaurants you have people who i say people do very private things in a very public space some people get you know fired in a restaurant, they get hired in a restaurant, people date first date in a restaurant, and I think and it's joyous if you have a graduation, you come afterwards if you're celebrating something to do it in a restaurant

40:28Ruthie Rogers:Do you think divorce papers have been served on the floor at River Cafe?

40:32Chris Black:I don't know, divorce, but maybe the announcement of it pending

40:37Jason Stewart:Do you recall your favorite proposal in the dining room over the years?

40:42Chris Black:Well, yeah, we had one the other day, which was, you know, he got down on his knees in the middle of the restaurant, and it was charming. But the story I always tell, and I apologize to your listeners if you've heard it a hundred times, is the person who asked if we would make a cake. He was going to propose that night saying, will you marry me? And so we got a fabulous made in Nemesis, you know, delicious chocolate cake, and in white writing we rode around in a circle, will you marry me? and they came in and they sat down. We gave them a great table. And after the first antipasti course, he came to the kitchen and said, cancel the cake.

41:21Chris Black:So we always wonder what happened in that half hour. Golly, one fucking salad?

41:29Ruthie Rogers:This guy's changing his whole life course?

41:30Chris Black:I know, responsible, exactly.

41:32Ruthie Rogers:That's really good. I do find it, because when I'm in London and I always try to go and I always invite my friends that are mostly British, and I think a lot of them do think of it in some ways as like a special occasion place that they went to for the stuff that you're talking about. Like when I graduated from high school or when I finished college or whatever, it was like a special thing for my family to do.

41:51Jason Stewart:Why do you want to go there? Do you get a new job? Do you get a promotion? What's going on?

41:54Ruthie Rogers:Yeah, they always think I've got something. I'm like, I'm celebrating that the food is good. That's all I need to celebrate tonight. I don't need a reason. I'm celebrating the fact that I was able to get a table at the River Cafe. Yeah, I'm not interested. But yeah, I forget that places become that for people and like it becomes something more than like, you know, it's more than I like the pasta. I guess is what I'm saying.

42:13Chris Black:But I also think we do get a lot of people who have been coming for years and new people. Totally. And, you know, that they come again and again. We have one couple that every Monday and Tuesday, that's where they are. And I see them. I go, oh, yeah, it's Tuesday.

42:29Ruthie Rogers:Monday and Tuesday back to back is a cool way to do it.

42:32Chris Black:Every Monday and every Tuesday.

42:34Jason Stewart:We're not spreading it out. Do they order the same thing every time?

42:37Chris Black:No, because we don't have the same thing anyway. Oh, that's right.

42:40Jason Stewart:We change the menu. That's a flex.

42:42Chris Black:But they do. They're really best.

42:44Jason Stewart:I consider your restaurant to be one of those, like you walk in the door and you're just floored by the atmosphere and the energy. It's one of those restaurants you don't, I wouldn't have to, I wouldn't go to for the food, but the food happens to also be enjoyable. So are there any other restaurants that you can think of, you know, in London or abroad that you don't necessarily go to for the food, but more so for the atmosphere and it makes up for it?

43:11Chris Black:Well, that worries me if you don't go for the food, because I think the most important thing, I mean, ultimately, it is food that makes people go back. Of course, I won't go back to a restaurant where somebody, you know, whether it was rude to me or I was made to feel intimidated by the wine sommelier. But, you know, for me, the crucial thing is the food.

43:32Jason Stewart:Well, I guess an example that I would use, I live in Los Angeles, Chateau Marmont, you know, the restaurant there, amazing room. Always happy to go. If somebody invites me, I'll say yes every time. But I'm not excited about the food. I don't think they have a reputation for having amazing food. And none of that really matters.

43:52Chris Black:You know what I mean? Yeah. Well, for me, it really does matter, the food. I mean, again, obviously, I will go, you know, I love, I think both are important. But, you know, I think for me, the food is very, very important. Okay.

44:06Ruthie Rogers:Not me. I'm just there. No, I'm only there. Not me. Yeah, I mean.

44:10Jason Stewart:He's there for the atmosphere and the spinach salad.

44:12Ruthie Rogers:No, but I think in, I guess in New York, there's a lot of, I feel like in New York more than other places, there's a lot of, a lot of that where it's like all atmosphere, you know? And I think that people, people get lost in that. And those restaurants usually only last a couple of years, you know, that feels to me very New York for some reason.

44:28Chris Black:The River Cafe is coming up to our 40th birthday and in 27, we'll be 40 years old. So we're trying to think of what to do. That's a long ass time. We're going to do a book. yeah we're thinking of all sorts of things that we can do

44:42Ruthie Rogers:you're cranking these books out I feel like the Ed Ruscha book was like three months ago

44:46Chris Black:yeah that was kind of almost a coincidence because we I can't remember what happened with that but we one of them was late and one was early but we're good I think the Ed Ruscha coming out I love doing that book that was a book that was you know came from you know just a friendship a friendship between Ed and myself, a friendship between Johnny Ive from Love From and myself, and the recipes. And so we just did this book, a collaboration. I think most books are all mine. What I love about it is collaborating. And so the collaboration on the Lemons book was so much fun. I did the recipes in London.

45:31Chris Black:Ed was doing the art in L.A., and Johnny was doing the graphic design in San Francisco. and all kind of came together. Johnny's wife, Heather, who is a poet, did the words on every image. And so it was the four of us.

45:48Ruthie Rogers:That's a real trifecta, I have to say. I mean, how long from this?

45:52Jason Stewart:Yeah, Johnny Ive, for our listeners, Apple designer, you know, designed the iPhone and stuff like that. And then you just said, hey, one day, do you want to lay out my cookbook about lemons? I got this guy, Ed Ruscha, who's going to do the artwork? How does that even come together? I guess it's just a flex of you knowing everyone cool in the world, it seems.

46:15Chris Black:Well, if I know everyone cool in the world. I think, yeah, Johnny's a really old friend. Ed is a good friend. I'd always said to Ed, I really want to do a book with you, Ed, because Ed, it's not like doing a book with an artist. Ed used books all the time in his working life

46:36Ruthie Rogers:he's one of the greatest producers of art books that we've seen probably career wise for sure

46:43Chris Black:so I said to him I want to do a book oh Ruthie I've got this show at the Museum of Modern Art oh Ruthie it's moving to LA and then one day I said I was in LA and I was with him and he said okay if you do one ingredient I'll do it And I said, we're in this garden. And we decided we chose lemons.

47:04Ruthie Rogers:So the lemon choice was collaborative, but he was saying, you got to pick one. I can't do the whole thing. You got to pick one.

47:10Chris Black:One ingredient. Yeah, and I think that's a cool way to do a book. I'd like to do another one with it. I agree. And we're thinking about what the ingredient would be for the second book.

47:19Ruthie Rogers:I was about to say, yeah, there's so many options if you pick just one. Yeah, I found it. I really like the layout. The yellow is also striking from a cover perspective.

47:28Chris Black:it just it stands out in a nice way yeah and there's no and heather's words but also there's no there are no pictures of food and then the book that we're celebrating right now and we're in new york for and that is i think a really um again a beautiful book uh and a collaboration with a lot of people is the book about the podcast with these table four and that has no recipes in it and it is just based on the whole idea as we were just saying before but everyone has a story you know and so how do you get that story and we're doing it through food so if you you know we had publisher chose the people that they wanted in the book because it would be so impossible for me to choose 80 so you too oh you're saying you took yourself out of it you

48:14Ruthie Rogers:said i didn't look i didn't cut you the publisher cut you yeah yeah you're like i guess leave david

48:19Jason Stewart:beckham and martha stewart in and you can figure out the other ones yeah that's funny though that

48:23Ruthie Rogers:the publisher is that a decision you wanted to make at the beginning like i can't i can't choose between my children basically you have to make the decision as the publisher yeah because there's so

48:32Chris Black:many great ones that aren't in there and um you know volume two here we go but i think um they chose well and i think we divided the book into um some six sections i guess we have uh food and family. So we have the McCartneys and the Beckhams and my own family, my son, Ru, and my brother, Michael Elias, who's a writer, really wrote beautifully about his story, and Salman Rushdie and Eliza Griffith. So that's sort of family. And then the next section, you can help me out here if you have it there.

49:10Ruthie Rogers:The next section is I think food and discovery.

49:13Chris Black:Is it discovery? And that is people who kind of discovered, or maybe it's food and tradition, which comes from Greta Gerwig and Noah Brumbach's son, who said we had lunch every Sunday when they were filming in London. And one day his son, I said, I'll see you next Sunday. And he just said, Rithi, is this the meaning of tradition? And so we did tradition. And also a lot of immigrant families who come from other countries. A lot of people talk more about their grandmothers than their mothers, and that's because a lot of people come from other countries. I would say the mother adapts and the grandmother brings her food with her.

49:55Chris Black:And then we have food is tradition, food is discovery, people whose families didn't think that much about food, but they discovered it when they grew up, or their mother discovered it when she started having children. And then the next one is maybe food and art. So we took six artists. We have Frank Gary, we have Norman Foster, Tracy Emin. Who else? I can't remember. And that was food and art. And then food and politics is kind of a cool chapter. We have the prime minister of Canada, Mark Carney. He wasn't the prime minister then. And he talked about his mother.

50:32Ruthie Rogers:We got him when the getting was good before he was prime minister.

50:35Chris Black:Yeah, we got him. And he's great.

50:38Jason Stewart:I just love that you have all these people from all these categories of the world and sectors of life and interests, but you happen to get the best of the best of the best of every single area that people exist in. So, I mean, it's a hard question for you to answer, but how do you just become the most well-connected, coolest person around? Do you know what I mean?

51:05Chris Black:I really don't think that's okay. I think I'm lucky. I think that, you know, well, connection, you know, as Ian Forster said, only connect, you know. And I think that's what we do, whether it's with our kids, our kids' friends, our friends' friends. You know, the restaurant is a great place to be. And I think I have a lot of friends who do many different things, you know, including myself. You know, I didn't start a restaurant until quite late. I don't consider myself a friend of famous people. I consider myself a friend who has people who love to work at what they do.

51:45Jason Stewart:Okay, so were you like this before the restaurant, like social-wise? Like, do you like to socialize? I think Richard and I both feel both a social commitment to the environment where we live.

52:00Chris Black:So when we moved into Chelsea, we called up the local theater and said, we've just moved here. How can we help? or we cook meals in children's schools. You're active, basically. I don't see it as being social. I think you see it as being people are very important to him. They would be important to him, important to me, the people I work with, the separations. I don't know when I'm working, when I'm entertaining, when I'm having over. I think it's all part of a world which you want to give something back and also reciprocating and empathetic. And also I do feel responsibility right now as to what we can do in this world of ours right now.

52:45Chris Black:And so I don't know how to oppose much of what is going on that I object to. So sometimes I think, well, maybe getting around a table and giving people good food and kind of taking care of each other is a form of opposition.

52:58Ruthie Rogers:Yeah, no, I mean, I think in some ways it is. I also think that a restaurant, when it's good, is meant to be sort of what you're talking about. It's a place for people to like gather simply, you know what I mean? And I think people are also coming in there with, I don't know, I think if it's a good place, people come in with a good attitude, which creates a good environment and allows, you know.

53:19Chris Black:I think that if I go to a restaurant or I stay in a hotel or I get into a taxi cab or whatever we're doing, I think if people are unhappy or unpleasant or rude to you, probably they're not being taken care of you know that maybe if I try to give the people who work for me a good environment, a window to look out of that they can't do too many shifts and they get tired, that they get a holiday, that they are there for them if we take care of them they'll take care of the people who work who come to eat in the River Cafe so I think it is a responsibility if you have a company You know, somebody said your responsibility is to the community and to the people who work for you.

54:07Ruthie Rogers:Yeah, I mean, I think that's also I know a lot of people that start out, you know, doing something they love and it becomes bigger, you know, bigger and bigger. And then they become a manager of people. And sometimes that's not what they set out to do. But it sounds like you actually take pride in that part and enjoy it.

54:23Chris Black:I think it's helpful to separate the two. You can come in and be a genius cook or a great architect, or you can fly an airplane. But it's the other part that is so important as well. I mean, both. But I do think it's kind of old-fashioned to think of the creative genius who's horrible to people. I agree.

54:49Ruthie Rogers:I think we're done with that, unfortunately. I don't know.

54:52Jason Stewart:Kanye West is coming back, you guys.

54:53Ruthie Rogers:I used to give people slack I was like well if you're that good at it whatever If you've given me Some of the greatest art that I could Possibly imagine I'm going to let you do whatever you want

55:03Jason Stewart:Ruthie won't settle for one of the two She needs both

55:06Ruthie Rogers:I think that's not too much to ask Especially as we Get a little older and a little more wise I would say

55:16Chris Black:I'm not saying everybody Has to be Very often people have this image of We're all hugging each other all day You have to have a really, you know, people are coming to the restaurant. They're paying money, you know, and it's a business. And the floor has to be clean and the menu has to be typed and the table has to be laid and the food has to be seasoned. And, you know, there's all that. The reception has to be, you know, welcoming. So it's a very professional, very demanding job. But within that, the performance has to be taught with hope rather than fear, you know, and honesty. And that is crucial.

55:59Ruthie Rogers:Why do you think the food world in particular has been sort of infected with that kind of like, you know, monster leader? More than other industries, I would say. I feel like food and restaurants have been touched by that. And what do you think is the reason that is so apparent? I mean, less so now, obviously, than 10 years ago. But why do you – is it just the high stress of the environment?

56:22Chris Black:Again, I don't know because I didn't work in kitchens before I created my own. And so when I hear the stories of the behavior – oh, Anthony Bourdain wrote about it. A lot of people wrote about it. And I think that I would love to say that it's high stress or that the curtain goes up and the place has to be ready or you have to be done or you have to know how to, you know, the timing and you have to, you know, communicate. But I really don't know if it is harder being a chef than it is being a journalist or being, you know, a doctor in the emergency room. And I think that it is, you know, obviously there are jobs that are less stressful, more stressful.

57:07Chris Black:I think it was very much built into the system of having to get up early, having to work late, have to be, you could only deliver if you were bullied into it. I don't know, but what really gives me hope now and confidence and joy is to see that the restaurants that we all love to eat in are not run on that way. And it's just, you know, I went to Le Bernardin, which is about his classic and gorgeous restaurant. And Eric B. Pair really was so, you know, the way he, for me, what I understand is he's a modern person, you know, and he deals with people in a fair way. And I think, you know, I'm not saying that we all don't, you know, but then people, journalists always used to call me up and say, oh, it must be so stressful to be a chef.

58:00Chris Black:And I used to go, gosh, well, it must be really stressful to be a journalist because it's something patronizing to say, oh, you know, I don't know. There's something I don't like about the exceptionality of being in a kitchen to behave in a certain way.

58:14Ruthie Rogers:Oh, I agree. I mean, I think it's sort of, I mean, it's kind of insane. But I think that when you're talking about Le Bernardin, that's been around for a long time, too. Maybe there's a through line there of if you do treat people the right way, something can last a lot longer and maintain a level of quality and not burn out bright like some of these other places do.

58:33Chris Black:Yeah, I agree with you. I agree. And I think, I was going to say a really good thing is that a lot of chefs, I'm talking about the kitchen now, you know, is a lot of chefs. It used to be that if you couldn't do anything else, you know, if you weren't really good at academics or you weren't good at whatever, you became a chef.

58:51Jason Stewart:A little bit of a criminal record, maybe a little dirt under the fingernails.

58:54Chris Black:Yeah, maybe a little criminal record. And now, you know, if you look around the River Cafe, I don't know who has a university degree and who doesn't, who studied at Yale and who went to Oxford and who went to the local cooking school. But they are really, you know, have a sense that they've chosen. And okay, you know, I'm going to be in trouble here because I think not everybody gets to choose what they do want to be. And, you know, so I mean, there are a lot of people who are cooks and they don't even like cooking, you know.

59:25Ruthie Rogers:I hate podcasting, Ruthie, so I totally understand how they feel. I understand how they feel. He just happens to be great at it. I can't help it. Yeah, it's a gift.

59:33Chris Black:Yeah, but you know what I mean? Yeah, of course. You know, we romanticize the idea of the chef as being somebody who saw the light and is just, you know, cook. But I do think that my advice always to somebody who wants to be a cook is don't start too young. You know, don't go and learn and go to school, you know, travel, do something else. Because if you start being a chef when you're 17 or 16, by the time you're 26, you're kind of like could be burnt out, you know? So I don't know. I don't know. I have no advice.

1:00:05Jason Stewart:I agree with that. You become a chef instead of a person if you start too early. And if you start later, you're able to use all of your life's experiences and channel that, you know, and make interesting food that's unique only to yourself versus just, you know, competing with everyone else to have the nicest looking plate.

1:00:25Ruthie Rogers:You're in the restaurant a lot though, right? Like you're, you're there as much as you can be.

1:00:29Chris Black:Oh yeah. I mean, I, I, again, I'm telling this, but I, um, they gave a party for me recently at my birthday party and they gave me a quiz in front of 140 people. And one was, you know, how many slices of nemesis have we sold? And, you know, who, and you know, how many pieces of kilos of squid we buy here. They were cute. And then they said, who is our most regular customer? And so I named the people coming every Monday and Tuesday night. It wasn't them. And then I named somebody who comes in every lunchtime in the summer, almost comes in. He's traveling from New York. He comes for lunch and dinner.

1:01:09Chris Black:So I went on and on, and I was kind of completely wrong because apparently the person who was the most regular customer in the River Cafe was me.

1:01:19Ruthie Rogers:Oh, they tricked you. See, that's not fair. That's not fair. This lady will not stop coming in here.

1:01:25Jason Stewart:Wow. I'm not wondering if you're not. Well, you mentioned Le Bernardin. Chris and I went there a little while ago last year, and Eric Ripper would come over, and he would touch our table and talk to us the same way that he would, I'm assuming, would come in and talk to you. when you go into the restaurant, not only going to the VIPs and everyone. So do you have any philosophies or structures or systems in place when you have to go out and touch the tables? Do you go to all of them? Do you decide who has to? Are there tables that you don't want to say hi to, but you have to for other reasons?

1:02:04Chris Black:One of the things I think that I do have a rule is, even if it's my family that are eating or really close friends, is I don't stay too long. I really try to really say in the warmest possible way how you, because I think sometimes you go to a restaurant and ultimately you want to say hello to the owner or the chef or your friends, but basically you're there with somebody and it's nice, so I try not to stay too long. I make a lot of eye contact. That's my thing. And so when I see somebody looking at me and then, you know, it kind of looks like they want you to stop or if they're eating something that looks adventurous, I'll say something if they're wearing something that I notice or just if they're just like really nice people.

1:02:54Chris Black:And so I, yeah, I just enjoy that. I mean, you know, I think if, you know, I think I have the best job in the world. You know, I couldn't have a better job.

1:03:04Jason Stewart:Free food.

1:03:05Chris Black:Yeah. and very beautiful.

1:03:08Jason Stewart:All the champagne you can drink for lunch. Yeah, I was just thinking yesterday when I was listening to your podcast, reading the book a little bit, about how to categorize your food, and I feel like almost all of it pairs well with champagne. It's just like champagne food across the board, which I don't know if you could have a more enticing collection of dishes.

1:03:32Chris Black:Well, I hope so. You'll have to come back. When are you coming again? I haven't seen you for a while.

1:03:37Ruthie Rogers:I'll be back next week. I'll email. I'll be back. Well, not next week. The 16th. I'll put some friends together. We'll make the trek.

1:03:45Chris Black:Let me know because I'm in New York from Wednesday the 11th to the 20th.

1:03:54Jason Stewart:Oh, yeah. Yeah. You're doing an in-person kind of book appearance for it. Going back to what I was saying before where you have a network of people, but they're just the top of the top. you're doing your book launch party you know in conversation with gail king and sarah jessica parker yeah i am well i'm jealous that i can't be there it sounds like i'm sorry yeah like a treat i hope so but well yeah next time i'm in london we'll of course come in i need to get a new um

1:04:23Chris Black:debire non-stick pan oh yeah my yellow's holding on but my blue you know she's taking a beating Yeah, I cooked on my blue one at lunchtime today, actually. I made a salmon.

1:04:34Jason Stewart:I love how those are great and look cool and not overpriced.

1:04:41Chris Black:Yeah, I do too. The trifecta.

1:04:43Ruthie Rogers:So you're cooking lunch at home?

1:04:45Chris Black:My son was there. My son Ru was working there. And I was, why was I home this morning? Oh, yeah, I had a meeting this morning that started 11. So then I came back and we cooked a piece of fish and some roasted tomatoes that are the winter tomatoes, the ones from Sicily. We have them now. And yeah, it was really nice to be there with him.

1:05:11Jason Stewart:When are you not having a perfectly cooked piece of fish with some fresh vegetables and herbs? When are you just having a fucking chip butty?

1:05:21Chris Black:Yeah, I do that. I do that. I mean, I do that with... I don't eat food. No, I wouldn't eat it because it's junk, but I eat really good food. But, well, there's this chain here called Itsu, which is sort of Japanese, whatever. And it's opened by a friend of mine, Julian Metcalf, and it's down the road. And I sometimes go in there and just have this really delicious miso soup and noodles. And it's nice, you know. And I love ice cream, so I'm always stopping for an ice cream. Sometimes I stop at Shake Shack and get a milkshake. So, you know, I'm out there.

1:05:59Jason Stewart:Yeah, I was going to – okay, I'm glad you said ice cream because I was going to say your cheat meal junk food cannot be miso soup. One of the most healthy and nutritious things you can eat. Oh, you're asking me that.

1:06:09Chris Black:Maybe not. I don't think junk food – yeah, I don't know about junk food, but I'm really happy to have pizza. I love pizza. I love – yeah, I'm not – I don't think I'm – I'm not that kind of – oh, it has to be this or it has to be that before I eat it. I love corn on the cob when I'm in upstate New York. And when I was in Mexico, I'd love nothing more than a taco off the street. And, yeah, I think even if you love to eat, it's just not a question. You'll find it. You'll find it.

1:06:38Jason Stewart:What's your martini order?

1:06:41Chris Black:Oh, martini order. That's fine because I am in the restaurant world known for not being, you know, like the greater drinker because I'm so susceptible. So I have one martini, a dry martini, with a twist. But my real passion for tequila, because I lived in Mexico for four months. My husband wasn't well there, and so I stayed in Mexico City. And what I learned about tequila was it's just such a good drink with food. You were talking about champagne with food. And I love drinking tequila with food. so we can share a dry martini and a margarita I just have straight tequila on the rocks or straight up do you like tequila?

1:07:30Jason Stewart:yeah I do like tequila definitely and I like sipping on it more so than mixing it as well and mezcal yeah me too

1:07:38Ruthie Rogers:is the margarita having a resurgence or is it just in my life?

1:07:44Chris Black:I don't know because I literally don't know And I think in the River Cafe, we sell quite a few margaritas. I mean, people are drinking less. I mean, that is something that is a fact, which is kind of slightly worrying to us all in the restaurant business. Because, you know, we love wine with food. And, you know, people ordering wines is so exciting because there are so many great Italian wines. But I don't know. Are your friends drinking less?

1:08:14Ruthie Rogers:No. I mean, I'm sober, so I'm drinking less. But I mean, I would say that weirdly, I feel like people I know are drinking and smoking maybe more. Oh, yeah? I mean, not more, but it doesn't feel like. I would say five years ago, there was a real sort of shift to like, I'm healthy now. I do yoga. I don't really drink. I go to sleep early. I feel like now we're back a little bit to a more middle line where it's like, I don't go crazy on a Monday night, but I go out on a Friday or Saturday.

1:08:42Jason Stewart:We're getting our sleep. We're maybe having a few less cigarettes. And when we are going to drink, we're not just going to shovel down whatever. We're going to be a little more conscious of our decisions. I feel like people are prioritizing sugar and artificial juices and sweeteners and flavors more so than just getting drunk. People are just trying to figure out, I still need to get fucked up. So I'm just going to have a very high quality tequila, fresh lime juice and an ice cube. or I'm just going to have a vodka martini with a lemon twist and it's not going to have all this other crazy sugary stuff in it.

1:09:21Chris Black:I was going to ask you a question.

1:09:22Jason Stewart:For those of us lifers.

1:09:23Chris Black:Can I ask you a question? What is that poster behind you?

1:09:26Jason Stewart:Pet Shop Boys.

1:09:27Chris Black:I said the Pet Shop Boys. I can see it. I can hardly see it. David Byrne's doing a concert here, and I went to a concert last week. The Pet Shop Boys. What year would that be?

1:09:40Jason Stewart:Whenever Please came out, I'm going to guess 87. 88 something like that did those guys ever come into the restaurant is that 86 neil tenet right

1:09:50Chris Black:neil tenet that's right across the street from me yeah oh it's your neighbor i heard neighbor neil is what we call him yeah we love him yeah he's a good guy um okay so as as we're landing

1:10:01Jason Stewart:the plane ruthie i know at the end of your podcast oftentimes you'll have um ask people what their comfort foods are and i'm sure people have asked you that a thousand times so we're not going to and you already went over your ice cream addiction. So can you guess maybe our comfort foods based on talking to us for the last hour?

1:10:20Chris Black:Oh, I have to guess them on the basis of talking to you? You don't have to.

1:10:26Jason Stewart:You don't have to at all. It was merely a fun suggestion.

1:10:30Chris Black:I wonder what it would be. I wonder, because you were asking me about that comfort, I was wondering if it might be something to do with um maybe a hamburger or something that you felt like made you think of

1:10:43Ruthie Rogers:the kind of life out there i don't know pizza is my pizza is my comfort pizza yeah for sure pizza

1:10:49Chris Black:is a good one yeah yeah i don't know what is your well what are they what are your comforts yeah i

1:10:54Jason Stewart:mean yeah pizza for sure i i like a good classic in and out cheeseburger definitely i also like a nacho a lot yeah is a is a deep comfort food for me i think of actually jason that's funny i think

1:11:05Ruthie Rogers:of nachos as your comfort food now that you're saying yeah it's it can have so much dynamic

1:11:09Jason Stewart:range often it's a soggy you know sad little plate but when done correctly it can be a symphony of textures temperatures flavors and uh and crunches um okay well ruthie thank you so much for for chatting with us the new book featuring a hundred of the coolest people ever yeah really

1:11:31Chris Black:Very nice.

1:11:31Jason Stewart:If you're in New York next week.

1:11:33Chris Black:Yeah, come and see me. I'm going to be, I guess I'll be with Sarah Jessica. You know what I'm doing on Thursday night? When does this come out?

1:11:41Jason Stewart:This comes out on Friday.

1:11:43Chris Black:Friday, yeah. I'm doing Jimmy Fallon on Thursday.

1:11:46Jason Stewart:Ooh.

1:11:47Ruthie Rogers:Oh, nice. Okay.

1:11:49Chris Black:I'm quite, I'm quite.

1:11:51Ruthie Rogers:Do we have our look sorted? Do we have an outfit?

1:11:53Chris Black:I'm so glad you asked me that. Because why do you think I was going to be late for your podcast? Were you getting fitted? I have to go try one more thing. I don't know. I sort of feel maybe I should just shop in my closet. What would you suggest? What do you think I should wear?

1:12:08Jason Stewart:Who do you want to wear? What designer are you looking at today?

1:12:14Chris Black:You know, I'm kind of a robe person, and I'm also a Prada person. Prada's my kind of, but the two of them are my sort of place where I go. And then there are the others, you know. I like the Japanese designers. but what do you think I should wear

1:12:32Ruthie Rogers:I think you should wear something that you feel comfortable and confident in and not let the designer dictate that just whatever you feel the best in

1:12:42Jason Stewart:I know that you're going on a talk show but Jimmy Fallon will do some physical challenges are you going to be doing any activities are you cooking anything or is it just a conversation

1:12:52Chris Black:my next call is with his people it keeps flashing up on the screen so I think it's at 5.30 I think it's 5 o 'clock now

1:12:59Jason Stewart:He's like, well, we will be bowling, so make sure you use a more comfortable trouser or something.

1:13:05Ruthie Rogers:But you're not cooking. You're just chatting.

1:13:07Chris Black:Yeah. Yeah.

1:13:08Ruthie Rogers:Okay. In that case, then you just wear whatever makes you feel good. Yeah, I think.

1:13:11Jason Stewart:Fall, winter, 26th the road. Just fresh off the runway. We'll WorldNet ship it over to the hotel.

1:13:18Ruthie Rogers:Get you a pair of slacks, a button down. Yeah, we could go.

1:13:21Chris Black:I would love to get it.

1:13:22Ruthie Rogers:There's nothing I would love to do more than hit Selfridges with you, but unfortunately, how about that? Unfortunately, here we are. A little bit far.

1:13:28Jason Stewart:And if you want, my wife is a professional wardrobe stylist living in Los Angeles. Wait, Fallon shoots in New York though, right? Yeah. Never mind, never mind. Anyway, I was going to say -

1:13:40Chris Black:Time is short. Yeah, I got to figure it out.

1:13:41Ruthie Rogers:Time is short. Time is short. I like the way - Okay. Thank you for joining us, Ruthie. We appreciate it.

1:13:46Chris Black:No, really, thank you for asking me. And when you come to London, you should be on my podcast.

1:13:51Ruthie Rogers:I would love it. Please sit us down and give it to us. I welcome you. I do double-I. Okay. I would love that. All right, we'll work it out. Thank you. We'll see you soon. Thanks, Ruthie. Thank you. Later.

1:14:16Jason Stewart:This episode is brought to you by Athletic Brewing Company.

1:14:19Ruthie Rogers:No matter how you do game day, on the couch, in the crowd, or manning the snack table, Athletic Brewing fits right in. With a full lineup of non-alcoholic beer styles, you can enjoy bold flavors all game long. No hangovers, no buzz, no subbing out for water in the second half. Stock the fridge for tip-off with a variety of non-alcoholic craft styles available at your local grocery store or online at athleticbrewing.com. Your beer, fit for all times.