967. - Matthew Schnipper

0:17How long gone Chris Black coming to you from bloody England yet again. um i am at a hotel called the estelle manor which is um i think if i'm not mistaken just down the street from uh our friends at bistro village okay that's over in in enchem park whitney yeah sure exactly yeah of course of course you know you know enchem park whitney you know the spot but i you know i got here at fucking you know i landed felt like shit had three coffees took a dip in the pool laid in the sun for a little bit hit the gym and i was back i feel okay the jet lag melt melts off when you're able to get into a body of water is a thing a belief i hold so that's a chris black travel hack just make sure you stay make sure your manor has a has a pool where the temp is where you like it yeah i'm looking at some photos i just googled it it does look very nice do you it's one of those places where i want it all to myself like i don't want other guests to be there but it is simply too big.

1:18So like, I guess I'm just saying like, I wish this was just like a 2000 square foot, a three bedroom home with, but had all this vibe. And then I would, I guess I could live there. So yeah, it looks like Gwen Stefani's cool music video. Why exactly are you staying over here in Ensham park, Whitney, Oxford Shire? One night in Oxford Shire, as they say, for there's a, I'm here with Range Rover. We're going to the, we're going to Wimbledon for the for the women's semifinal on Thursday oh but bittersweet bitters I'm looking at I'm looking at some sort of we're viewing an automobile tonight because I think this is sort of near where the JLR factory is I believe I'm here with Range Rover we're we're we're viewing a vehicle tonight I will say I will say getting driver had us getting picked up from the airport and a new Range Rover feels so much better than anything else.

2:15And it's not, I mean, obviously. Especially in London. Yeah, it feels right. You know what I mean? It's not bulletproof. Well, I didn't ask. I was hoping it would be bulletproof, but I'm not totally sure. But anyway, the weather's beautiful here. People are fucking in a good mood. Last time we were in town, it was a bit rainy, but we had some moments of sun. So it's more pool weather happening now. Yeah, it's like prime time. I mean, to them, it's like, oh my gosh, it's absolutely scorching. But after being in Miami, literally feeling like I'm going to pass out from walking 15 minutes, this is a joy.

2:48And that has nothing to do with your cardio, which is elite. This is all humidity and heat. I would say I'm going to blame. Yeah, I didn't check that either, much like if the car was bulletproof. But I'm going to say yes. I'm going to say yes. What color Chelsea tractor did we get? What make and model? Black. Black, brand new. black brand new with the with the tvs and the headrests and the back seat it's just it really it's just how god intended you're in the wagmobile we're gonna put on yeah we're gonna put on lilo and stitch in the back and not a peep out of chris till we get to the hotel i was watching i was watching some of my favorite youtubers all the way all the way from heathrow to to oxfordshire he has all his favorite snacks don't need to it's in dog mode it's in it's in chris mode it's all good but the one thing i'll say the one thing i'll say that i'm your body must be in not a wonderland right now that yeah in terms of flight i mean i did work out in the gym is had everything it was fine but the the so this room is beautiful but it has like an outdoor area and it has a small outdoor fireplace and if but when you're alone it's like what am i gonna what am i gonna light a fire for you know what i mean like who am i doing this for could i do it my matthew mcconaughey literally could i do it i think so would i like to have a dusk you know in a scotch out there why chomp on a cigar absolutely but i can't they have cigars on the menu here no joke you can order a cigar on the menu like a coffee which i was i've never seen that before i've never seen that only at the estelle manor and i love this country house slash hotel slash private members club and Michelin recommended restaurant.

4:25Wow. 108 rooms. Jesus Christ. Okay, so I have no idea what this is. I'm only saying all this stuff so they can extend a lovely invitation to my wife and I. We're basically like Callum Turner and Dua Lipa, but OC vibes only. We would love to come over and I would love to start a fire and I will have a non-alcoholic. You'll have an NA scotch as well. Two N.A. Scotches, please, good barman I mean, you know how much I love Maintaining a fire at the hearth I mean, manning the hearth Is something I've seen you do several times It doesn't make your back as big as Callum Turner's But it gets you closer I think is what's important It's part of my recovery, alright Oh, I see, it's the cold plunge for you Manning the hearth is more of a recovery tool Yeah That's cool Yeah, that's cool, man Yeah, and congrats to England I'm glad they brought it home The vibe is probably high over there America lost yesterday.

5:20I'm scared because I'm going to be here. Cucked by Belgium. I'm going to be here for the game, so I have to go watch it. And I feel like that could be something that I don't recover from. When is the Saturday? You have to go watch it? Well, I mean, if you're here and, you know. Right, right, right. Conrad wants to go to the Fat Badger. How could you say no, you know? Okay. Who are they playing? Oh, they're playing Norway. Oh, mate. This is going to be quite the match. Absolutely biblical. Yeah. You thought Dr. Congo was hot. Wait till you meet Norway. I really liked, look, Trump is on an all-time run of funny shit.

5:56And that getting the red card shit and then losing to Belgium is just, it's too good. It's all the way around a victory for the US in many ways. Yeah, over in Manhattan, David Cho is reporting a building is dangerously close to collapsing. Is that in Midtown? It was like 42nd Street or something like that? Yeah, 42nd and 2nd, I believe. there's a building that could possibly collapse the old pfizer building follow the money oh i'm saying i didn't okay interesting somebody took somebody took the batteries out huh um yeah i i i um i'm concerned for all the manhattanites you know it gets this hot i mean it's it's hot enough it's human enough the bricks start melting you know what i mean it's new shit shit we hadn't seen brick melt the brick down melt the brick down this is 17.5 yes exactly actually you know speaking of 17.5, I was, um, you were, you were talking about, um, the, the 19 year old guy who's home from college flush with cash from work in the valet at the local hotel, not a care in the world.

6:59You know what I'm, you were saying this on the podcast last week. Yeah. Yeah. That's a certain kind of guy that I like not sexually. I don't even need to pause that sentence. So I'll let the, uh, I'll let, I'll let the spiritual planet. Yeah. Um, and the universe pause you for that, but i feel like this is a good idea for like a character and i feel i feel like i want to have i mean obviously you and i can't write this because we're we're not amazing writers of of this type of story but this is a i would like we should pitch this to brett easton ellis because he would just rip through this thing shards coming out 8-5 on hulu that's the problem nobody gives a fuck about shards anymore now it looks like some fucking teen drama like cw But I'm saying that's where this character would exist, in that kind of world.

7:45You know what I mean? That's what I'm saying. I mean, they could also exist in any modern world. I want it to be modern. I want them to be, you know, I know how you like guys from like South Carolina, you know, whatever, the Ritz Charleston. When I met the two, when I met the two - You got a friend named Goose. I met the two brothers at Primland and Virginia who had both injured themselves out of college sports and they were recalibrating over the summer, getting pussy and playing golf. Are you kidding? I mean, me and Peyton are recalibrating over the summer. Literally, one was played basketball, blew his knee out.

8:17One was a pitcher and blew his shoulder out. I'm not kidding. This is real. And these two guys, we, all right, valets, any of you, any of you fucking. Yeah, we got tires. It's time for valets. I know you guys are out of work. Hollywood's crumbling. Let's just do something. Just do a little web series. You know what I mean? It's like the state, but valets. I can see it now. I can see it now. Do you think that it's okay? I mean, when we go, like, obviously if this existed in Brett Easton Ellis' 1980s, Los Angeles, it would just be white guy with blonde hair, blue eyes. The whole entire fleet of valets is just...

8:49No, we got a whole... No, that's the cool thing about our version. But the 2026 version, we got to have wheelchair, blue hair, motherfucker. I got the lesbian chick with a face tat. I got the guy who's selling drugs as a valet. I got the white boys who got hurt playing sports. I got the shy Christian guy who's getting kind of turned out by his new friends. We could do this all day. The boss is a down on his luck guy who does okay, but he's divorced. He's got a kid. It's hard. He's paying the bills, but he's just getting by. We could do this all day. We could do this all day. We've got the Filipino guy out there.

9:26He's parking the car. His friend comes over. We're switching the wheels out. Pulling the turbo off that GT3. Exactly. We have a guest today. Former guest. Matt Schnipper is returning. He's got a new book. Rise Above that comes out, I think, any day now. July 21st, he says. All right, Jason, let's give him a buzz, and we will go from there. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by our old dogs over at Squarespace. Jason, I spend every waking minute of my day surfing the World Wide Web. I'm looking at social media. But you know me, I'm old school. I'm still checking out websites, baby.

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11:27They focus on well-made essentials that naturally become those everyday staples that you live in all season long, no matter what the season is. Yeah, Chris, I'm tangled up in linen over here. And this linen, it's European and we're breathable. You know, you don't want to, sometimes you don't want to wear shorts. Maybe it's a little bit more of a formal lunch or whatever it is. You got the beach club and you want to go to dinner, but you don't want to be wearing some heavy jeans or pants. Some beautiful linen is right there for you. Rotate it into your summer look. And those are starting at just$34.

12:00Get some nice, lightweight, soft tees to live in. throw a little sweater on over the shoulders at night when it gets nippy. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80 % less than similar brands because they work directly with ethical factories, cutting out the middleman. So you are only paying for exceptional quality, not brand BS. So make your summer wardrobe easier. Go to quince.com slash how long for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in canada that is q u i n c e dot com slash how long for free shipping and 365 day returns quince.com slash how long okay i think we're good um so you said you're at work right now you were on the work computer where what is the work nowadays matthew are we recording are we on the record are we going we're on the record i see a whiteboard so now you're really fucked or on record we know you got a job now don't worry we're not going to look at the white does that mean you don't want to talk about it no i'm not i have a job um can i go off the record for a minute it's not really how it works but no that doesn't how it works here yeah no i have a job i'm i'm the culture editor at wnyc and gothamus oh wow okay you okay real traditional shit yes we were talking to john kelly from puck last week and we were joking about the the role of chief taste officer and you're not too far away from that over there huh yeah that's um i'm hoping that we'll change my title to that when my review happens in the fall yeah i'm gonna when my review happens i have a few notes for my boss and one of them is i would like a title change uh it's it doesn't need to come with a salary bump because it's fake but if you could okay so this is wnyc like the public radio station and you're bringing some of that culture to the mix that's right so if you you know if you are listening to hear about what's going on in the news and then all of a sudden uh you're learning about the return of saint vitus the the metal club yeah that's that's my job can actually i would like to talk about that because i've had the unfortunate experience of going there before um and how does how does a club return is it a new space or is it like just it's returning in name and it's a floating it's a moving target they've been doing that since they closed i think let me let me say something no offense to the saint vitus ownership but bro that's like being a curator with no gallery they're coming back they've got a gallery they're opening a new space they have been doing shows to both of you yes so they have a new space uh opening later this year either in august or september um in in bush okay are they coming are they are they trying to come for brooklyn paramount's chokehold on the hardcore and heavy music scene is that what i i don't know that that do you really think i mean i know they had a culture boy answer the question i know they had a lot of no effects concerts that uh paramount facts okay not brooklyn paramount i'm sorry no it's not brooklyn paramount it's the other what's it fucking called uh oh this is why i was confused my bad i fucked up i fucked up i'm sorry i don't remember what it's called it's in brooklyn monarch brooklyn monarch oh the monarch oh yeah that's maybe a different audience to some degree.

15:13I think Vitus is a slightly older audience. Can you break down the looks of the different audiences, please? I mean, it's like Crest Punk versus Metalheads. It's cousins, certainly, but it's not... I've only been to Broken Paramount once. I don't live too far from there, so I'm often looking to see who is headlining. And it's often people I've never heard of, which I find it's impressive. I've been there a lot, and they got a sick gym for the bands in the building. yeah i saw i mean i saw geese there of course with every other white guy i can't believe you weren't there um no i wasn't i saw dive there i didn't see you i saw you the last time i saw you in person was that a camera winter show though paul that was pre that was before the hype baby we were there ground floor ground floor i was interviewing him that day oh yeah i remember i forgot you were going to interview and you didn't know how it was gonna go or you'd already interviewed oh no it went bad i knew how okay um and then we did a follow-up the next day which was better um but i was following him around i felt like like it was it was kind of funny you know who i talked to i was at a church that night and i talked to the pastor which is my favorite conversation i had for that wasn't it like a big girl lesbian pastor because it was like a green point church yeah she was like we're here to serve the serve the community that's what she said okay zoran yeah it sounds like she wanted to make a little scratch on the side let's pass the plate around.

16:33I'm not mad, though. Mama wants a trip to Turkey. Well, do you think he was being difficult on purpose, or do you think he's a kid and just... Okay. You think it's just who he is? Yeah, I think he's finding... I think he's certainly done a lot of finding himself since then, but that was over a year ago, I think, right? Yeah, it was a while ago. We're talking about Cameron Winter here? Yeah, we went, and he and I chatted, and then I went to his concert at a church in Greenpoint, in Brooklyn. Where did you guys... Where did you guys meet for your interview? On the background of this bar around the corner.

17:05And he was very late. So we talked for a few minutes. He really didn't have much to say. And then he was stressed because he had to go sound check at the church. And then we talked the next afternoon on the phone. And that was better. Did he drink? Did you drink? Did no one drink? No drinking. No drinking? No. What kind of journalist are you, bro? You got to get this guy sauced. I thought you were cool, man. No. You thought I was cool? I didn't mean that in the literal sense more in like a dazed and confused McConaughey sense I think it was a Coca-Cola situation which I think is classic, a little caffeine to get you going, get you chatting a music journalist drinking a Coke?

17:44Oh baby, that's Alright Cameron Crowe, pump the brakes Okay, well speaking of St. Vitus and metal and all that stuff when I was reading your book You mentioned finding a hobby later on of digging for vintage clothing, getting your Depop reseller on. But then earlier in the book, you mentioned sort of a purging of all of your dope metal tees over the years, your cannibal corpse long sleeves and your mortician turtlenecks and whatever it might be. Were you giving that stuff away or were you selling that as well? And if you were giving it away, do you regret not selling it? Oh, that's a good question.

18:27Also, what size are you? XL. Yep. Well, could have called me, but go ahead. Well, okay. I mean, have you guys... I don't know what you guys did. So my book... Did you tell the listeners what this is about? No. No, no. Okay. We'll let you do that. I'll let you do that one. That's kind of your problem. Yeah. As I'm reminded of every single day of my life. No, my book is a book about what happened in my life after my 22-month-old son died very suddenly. and obviously you know there have been lots and lots and lots of books about grief um what i was hoping to do with this book is both to figure out kind of what happened in my own life he died of a brain aneurysm from something a condition he was born with called an abm we would not have ever known this was going to happen um and obviously it kind of turned to the life of my wife's and uh my life and my wife's life upside down um but what we found was that the sort of the thing that i wanted to write about it kind of catalog and try to understand is is what this meant in the much smaller kind of just like almost dumber moments like we moved we had planned to right before he died which we did do and then all of a sudden i'm like unpacking everything and like chasing what you're talking about is i had all of these shirts and so i'm looking i had this one napalm death t-shirt and they're you know i love napalm death but it's the shirt and it has like you know people impaled on different kind of swords it's like you know the one do you know which one i'm talking about i think so yeah yeah it's like i forget exactly what it's you haven't seen it for a while i'm looking at it and cannibal corpse shirts where it's like people like eating you know the insides of people like people with like skulls like and i looked at it and i was like this is disney world i was like this is ridiculous i was like these people have no you have no proprietary ownership over terror i was just like this is this is a cartoon this is a pantomime of this and i was like disgusted by it like literally i was like this is a joke like i i cannot believe look man i never liked that bull i never liked that bullshit either it always felt a little fake to me so i'm glad you caught up you know and i liked like and i've come back around to it and there's some things that i think i have a better relationship with now than i used to some of those um different bands and things like that but literally friends were at our house a couple days after we moved in at our apartment and i'm unpacking and i just gave stuff away to my friends i was like i don't want this like this is a joke like you guys don't know what pain is and i had you know it was this really kind of like almost blustery feeling that i had where i was like i can't wear this this isn't me and like these people like i mean you guys know cannibal corpse Of course it's a put-on, but the thing named Corpse Grinder.

21:17He has an Instagram that's just filled with him taking his family to Disney World. And it's great. I'm glad Corpse Grinder is having a good time, but I was like, this is not my life anymore. It's hard to support a punishing death metal band run by Disney adults. It feels contradictory. Right. Well, I mean, which is cool. And I remember you talking about that, and it's interesting for you to be like, these guys are all fucking posers. Because it is, It is mostly a bunch of posers who are just regular people, and they love writing songs about eating entrails of aborted fetuses and things like that.

21:52But did you find yourself running towards true Norwegian black metal or metal created by people? Real shit. Yeah, people who are not Disney adults, bitch-ass, gay-ass corpse grinder. I got really into immolation for a while. Period.

22:17which is a band i really like i felt like there was for some reason like kind of more of a purity there this is awesome because your friends your your friends also couldn't be like i don't want your shit you pussy like i thought you really fucked with this you know what i mean they had to be like okay yeah i'll take you got no primus tees or nothing what's up look it was a strange experience to just sort of all of a sudden find the thing that you kind of really love to be sort of so no that's a that's a wild result that happened to me with the bon appetit universe right all of a sudden you go hey i know you're joking but like oh no he's not you're not joking all the things the thing that you like you love you're like oh all these people are posers and i don't even think that that is i'm not even sure that that is like capital t true but at that moment i had never been more kind of like disgusted by this stuff and so i got rid of it so i gave a lot of it away um i don't think i have since sold more stuff but i think everything in that point like i gave i just gave thanks to people no it is it is a fascinating way to sort of deal with grief or something you would never expect to kind of uh come on let's say i wouldn't i would never expect that no i kept i do regret i don't know if i regret there's an i hate god hoodie that i gave somebody and i do wish i had i had that still i once got a sting snipper yeah i was just like get get rid of that i saw i had i bought later and i hate god t-shirt that was just like a haunted house looking thing on the cover because i i like miss having i hate god much sure um sure yeah sure who who amongst yeah because you hated god before and you hate god even more now so yeah so okay i was just wondering when i was when i was reading through and i was like now that he's a d-pop baddie is he regretting letting all these fucking morbid angel grails go for free just to his bro who came over for some quinoa.

24:11I kept my morbid, I think it was pizza. I kept my morbid angel shirt. Do you think you, do you think, and this is not a shock because we're all the same age, but do you think you were one of the oldest sellers on Depop? Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. Yes. Because I, Depop has heat, but every time I think about it, I just can't do it. Like I can't get on there because it feels too Gen Zed. Well, that is, I enjoyed doing it because it was like, I kind of could, you know, I was just like, it was a very, hey, fellows kids. kind of thing for me to try to get him. I would love for you to snap somebody lowballs you on the Morbid Angel and you get into you're like, oh really, bitch?

24:46You know what just happened to me? And then you really get into the 15 year old. Yeah, but I still have that attitude sometimes. Somebody tried to like, you know, I had a t-shirt I was trying to, you know, I was telling somebody was like, you know, squabbling over like$2. And I was just like, no. I was like, I'm not taking this. This is ridiculous. Like, I'd rather give you like$20 off of something that is, you know, $40 and then give you$3 off of something that is$15. Well, you're going to come in, you're going to teach these Gen Z pieces of shit how to negotiate like a human being, like a real adult.

25:18You send a nice message. Somebody says, thank you so much and I'm happy to give you your discount. I'll give you your tax off. I'm feeling generous today. I'll give the dog. I just had a great experience on eBay where I found a shirt that I'd never seen before for Whiskey Town, my favorite band who no one's allowed to like anymore and um why is that chris no we can get into it later but it's it's what it's it's no red house painters but it's um and he uh but the guy it was the only thing he had for sale on ebay but he knew it was worth he knew it was worth money what'd you pay no low balls i know what i got it was a whiskey town strangers almanac shirt and it's just got this ms paint graphic of a cracked les paul it's hideous it's amazing but the guy I had it listed for$350, and I was like, you know what you have.

26:06I can't give you$350. I had him with the$225. He took it. Why is Whiskey Town merch so expensive? Because they're one of America's greatest bands that has been forgotten. Well, I just think anything. Because there's seven guys like Chris in America who have driven the market up? Yeah, there's 10 guys who have jobs and a fucking PayPal account, and they're like, I love it. Because also the merch is historic. like all that i mean that's the thing about metal stuff i just find it ugly like i hate the way it looks it's not what i like so it's tough for me whereas this stuff is really ugly in a way that's just sort of a forgotten era when graphic design required like scissors and tape yeah no i know what you mean because a lot of metal shirts it's either kind of like just silly ridiculous stuff like like aliens and entrail eating but then some of uh some of it looks really tough and badass but it's like you know jesus is a cunt nazi stuff like it's like yeah like the stuff that truly looks badass you can't wear it and you shouldn't want to wear it because there's usually some some real bad stuff behind it that's often the case yeah um yes so you got the whiskey town shirt though for 225 one of several uh yeah well i found the best one i've ever seen i sent to my guy who does disorder vintage because it wasn't my size and he bought it immediately so i i i liked it when i find something that i can't wear and i know somebody i'll send it to them and if they're a freak they'll buy it is usually i feel like that's that's sort of what i'm trying to get's giving back to my community community yeah i understand um yeah so i i was able to skim through the book i got i got the pdf a couple days ago so i didn't i didn't sit down and read the whole thing, but I feel like the whole read is a massive gratitude exercise, learning about your childhood and what happened to you later on in life.

27:56And for our listeners out there who are feeling down about themselves or the insides of their body, it was a great massive gratitude exercise, and it was probably very hard for you to write. So kudos and thank you. Thanks, Jason. I appreciate that. Yeah. Had you come to terms with the stuff that happened to you as a kid when you started getting into this or did it like bring that back up again so you know when i was a kid basically like i was pretty sick kid like i had i mean i it's not unusual i call i guess i had my colon cut out i had like a clossing bag for a little while i was in a lot of pain no no big big bro that is that is weird that's not normal it was weird i had ewe infection yeah yeah tonsils out please yeah you're going great you know it's not a great experience to have when you're kind of like in you know in middle school.

28:44But that's also where, you know, so many people get interested in underground culture and into music because something kind of adverse happens to them. And that's the path that, you know, that it took for me. You know, it's not the, it's no longer sort of like a defining, the defining part of my life. But it is, I think in order for you to understand who I am to figure out who I, you know, kind of became afterwards of my son died. It was important to kind of talk about that element. No, it's, I, I, I mean, I had no, everybody I knew that got into aggressive music. It was, they were an upper middle class white guy or their like parents were divorced, like no actual anguish.

29:25Like this is actually, you know what I mean? This is like real shit. That's like, could really take a bad toll on someone if they don't figure it out and deal with it pretty early, I think, because kids are so fucking mean. And having your colon, having a colostomy bag when you're 14 is pretty fucking crazy, and you would like to think kids would be nice about it, but I'm guessing they weren't. Well, it was the 90s, so everybody wore huge pants, so it wasn't that hard to hide, which was cool. Damn. There is an upside. There is an upside. There was an upside. It was not an issue. I was like, okay, Earth Crisis told me it's okay to look like this, so I'm going to do it.

30:00I'm serious. you know you mean like earth crisis literally told you you it's all good no i mean i i looked at carl's pants and i said i can wear that too and i'm pretty short so like you know i didn't like wearing like the biggest pants but they did fit a colostomy bag that was only for three months so that was cool um no but i think it also meant that like at that point i was sort of familiar with different elements of pain and kind of making your way through it i don't think that the experience of grief is the crushing pain of that is much, much worse than anything that happened to me as a kid.

30:36But I also think that it's like I had a toolbook. It was like, okay, you're going to be different than everybody. Where do you start? I don't think I was an expert by any means and looked to a lot of different people and a lot of different books and art and therapists to try to help me literally survive. But it was not the first time I'd gotten like oh things are gonna be different for me like what do i what do i do yeah it prepares you in some ways and obviously could never prepare you in others yeah sure if i might have to get my cola removed to understand rollin's band so i think that changed you i think that did i think that i think that did a lot to understand or to appreciate to appreciate yeah you were um you were you were mentioning you know going into the underground scene yeah you know when you were younger to to find some solace or whatever and i was thinking back you know when i was you know a teen doing the same thing yeah and i wanted to ask like what do you like obviously maybe things are a lot more inclusive nowadays with people who with disabilities or you know malformities or whatever in the scene it's everything is much more inclusive do you think it's a little too inclusive now like back in the 90s when we were kids going to the show like the the kid gloves were off and maybe that hardened you up a little bit um i don't know that that's something i completely i mean do you mean like literally like in the pit or like um i guess maybe like if you if you're like a disabled person back in the day you know do you want to feel a little danger so you feel like you're in with everyone else do you want to not be treated like a special person so much where you feel excluded i'm at the geese show and you know i don't want every i want i want a little rough a little bit of danger because if like if you if you're a disabled person yeah you want to feel you go to a hardcore show or a punk show to feel a part of it's it's one unit all flowing together and and now it's like right we have to protect and they're like i don't want protection i just want to be like everyone else for for this next hour you know right i mean i can't speak as a disabled person but i understand the idea that like if the idea of going and joining and being a part of an underground universe is so that you kind of are all with people who are maybe out somewhere outside of the mainstream it's like finding kind of a collective of all people who don't fit in elsewhere um so i can in that sense i can see what you are saying yeah yeah i saw this there's a lot of news this weekend because hell fest happened i'm sure you remember that of course in jersey they brought it back and there's a guy i guess there's a guy who apparently uh called the cops because someone moshed too hard on oh wow okay crowd killing i think is the term they're using oh yeah i've been hearing about this about crowd killing i can't say i've experienced this you've experienced the cop wrote a ticket being like like kind of making fun of the guy for calling the cops like in the in the notes of the ticket and i was like damn that's really funny that you call a cop and then the cop kind of makes fun of you is a real full circle moment i feel like for a crowd like officers note guy's kind of a bitch but anyway yeah yeah yeah exactly crowd killing we got people debating if you're allowed to take photos at a or you know at a hardcore show whether or not you're allowed to beat up the guy who's wearing a banana suit in the in the mosh pit at the beatdown hardcore show there's there's a lot of this floating around of the old hardcore guys and the new hardcore thems.

34:07I never thought about any of that stuff. I just was super excited to go to the show that was happening at a skate park. And that was kind of it. I definitely went into a pit when I was scared. It didn't matter. I was so excited to be a part of literally anything that was from an underground world. I was not thinking about anything other than just like Sior. My brain was just so so stoked you know it was like i was seeing convert you know i remember i was looking at photos you know i have like seen converge in high school and like what is his name jacob bannon right yeah you know bannon i remember he's wearing a godflesh t-shirt which is how i learned about godflesh and i remember he had somehow run into the crowd and i want to say he hit his head on somebody's video camera and he's bleeding and i remember i was at the university of harford watching this and i was just like jaw dropped like watching this dude just like you know him running around and he's just you know at that point this was you know this was probably like year 2000 so he's pretty young at that point too and just completely fearless and just bleeding everywhere like wearing a god's flesh t-shirt and i just like he went head first into that video camera because he wanted the blood that's yeah i mean that's very you know that's a very kind of eg way of doing it that's that's very possible it's rollins-esque as well sorry for interrupting Oh, no, it's fine.

35:28Rollins was definitely hurting himself with no question. Rollins with a whole other universe. What do you think about, as a esteemed music journalist, been doing this for a long time, what do you think of all of this indie rock, best song, American, you know what I mean, all this stuff going on. Have you been following this? No. Best song? You haven't seen this? It's like this whole thing about. No, tell me. Best indie songs, I think, is what we're doing. And now people are debating what's indie. you know what I mean they're like oh I don't know if that actually counts or if this counts or if that counts and it's a conversation I will I don't think I want to have oh my god because it just shows everyone's age and where their lines are and shit and like it's pretty and people's lists are just all over the place you know in a book because it's so insane you can't really so like somebody's like top 10 American indie rock songs and they'll say like you know the the strokes last night and somebody's like the strokes aren't fucking indie because their dad was a you know that's not indie you know so it's but it's a fun thing to debate but i feel like any good music head the three of us and many other people we know but the strokes aren't indie oh god yeah so like that's like you can spiritually tell if a band is indie or not you know what i mean no they're not indie yeah like as soon as i said that i was like they're not indie and then i'm like oh this is what i don't want to be like don't want to do but i think that i think that the confusion lies in the fact that they birthed so many imitators that were indie that I think a lot of people can't, you know what I mean?

36:53They can't separate those two things with the Strokes particularly. I would guess that's part of the problem. Is there a consensus pick that has gone down? I'm trying to think if I can guess what I think people's best indie song of all time, American indie song of all time, where people sing My Girls or something. Look, I've seen a lot of Built to Spill. You know what I mean? I don't want to get political here. Silver Sun pickups, they're up in there. You already know what I'm saying, brother. But that's what I mean. it's such a it's such a wide it's it's impossible is it a silver jew is it a pavement is it a dino junior does it right it's a pavement right i think silver jews i think that does encapsulate something deeply american in a way that other things on the list don't but i don't know if that is necessarily a factor that would mean something to everyone i feel right there are people who are younger than silver jews that are probably arguing about this yeah yeah the age the age gate on twitter unfortunately is not there for listeners at home silver jews is a ban just to be clear it's it's got to be cold sounds by pavement is that like i think that's yeah you tell me you tell me buddy i say ariel pink whatever he makes is all good oh my god it is up there it is up there pavement is mentioned several times of course it's gotta yeah it's gotta be i went to yeah it's it's i went to one of the pavement reunion shows paid my triple digits for the ticket and you know had the time of my life as a 43 year old i did too i did too and i was disappointed it looked like it was a fucking meetup of guys that work at breweries but you know i don't know what i don't know what i expected i don't yeah every time i go to a show though i'm like damn this is the audience of the music that i also like and it disappoints me and i don't know what that says about me or about the audience when um you you mentioned that you learned about god flesh from jacob from converge wearing a t-shirt when you saw him play yes and i didn't know that you were introduced to the music of Henry Rollins from the soundtrack to The Crow.

38:45Did you guys have that same experience? Do you remember that movie, The Crow? I remember the movie. I remember the soundtrack. But I was wondering, it's probably the least valid underground punk way to discover Black Flag and The Rollins Band. It's normally like some kid is wearing a t-shirt with the bars on it and you look it up or you see an album somewhere. Is the fact that you discovered Henry Rollins through The Crow soundtrack something you're proud of or embarrassed about? I mean, neither. It's just facts, you know? It's true. It happens. Well, you should be embarrassed. Okay. I'm just kidding.

39:21I'm just kidding. But, you know, I didn't even realize what I was actually discovering was suicide because they were covering Ghost Rider by suicide, but I had no idea that was cover.

39:37I always, for some reason, the cover of that, or the you know whatever the artwork for that movie always seems so silly to me that i was like this is ridiculous like this looks like a parody what is silly about it it's a crow and the movie's called the crow no i thought it had the actor on the front i thought there was like a i thought it was like kind of walking out of the darkness you might be thinking the crow too that's the crow oh oh no you're right yeah that's what i remember there were some different artworks to it i apologize this is jason lee you know who got who was shot and killed accidentally in the making of that film, which is, you know, I think it ended, gave it an air of heaviness.

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