980. - Collier Schorr

23:32So I get tagged by Koreans who have the hat. Are you popping in Korea? Is Idea Books popping in Korea, all of the above? It's not even. It's just the hat. There's a magical quality about Collier spelled like Coca-Cola. I don't know what it is. It's a sweet spot. It's a very good-looking hat. I myself look good in the hat, but can't wear it out.

23:57Jason Stewart:And you don't get any percentage of the sales for this, just to be clear. I get no percentage. I just, like every couple of years, say, you know, write David at ID and I say, send me some more hats. But I will tell you, I was in a jam once because I did a campaign for Louis Vuitton. and as a little gift at the end of the two ruckus days uh nicola gescare gave me a little bag a present and i took that upstairs to my hotel room because we were actually shooting at the bristol hotel and i opened it and it was the collier hat and i think he thought it was a coincidence oh he i thought that was just a joke gift and then you you just took the hat out of the boxing through it on the pile of all the other Collier hats you have.

24:45He just thought, oh my god, look at this hat. It has Collier's name. She's gonna love it. Really sweet gift. He gifted it to me because he thought I would like it. And then I had to tell him, oh my god, thank you so much for the hat. Just so you know, it's a collaboration. I approved this message years ago and it's been manufactured countless times. Yeah, it was actually a tender moment.

25:10Jason Stewart:And he said, that's why I pay you the big bucks, Collier. God damn it. I like that the creative director of Louis Vuitton is not aware of that existing. That's what I like the most. It was just a surprise. I mean, you realize how many times we... I mean, think about it. How many times you should know a thing and you don't know it? And it makes you feel like a brand new baby. You know, it makes you feel innocent in the world. That's a positive way to spin, I guess. I think it's just... There's so much stuff now that it's pretty tough to keep up. even in our preferred interest areas. Ignorance is bliss.

25:45Jason Stewart:Ignorance is baby. Just yesterday, an art director in Paris that I've worked with who's a friend sent me... Someone had posted a quote and they sent it to me. I read the quote. I said, I really like this too. And then I saw it posted again. I realized that I had said that. Okay. I honestly just did not. I feel like this only happens to like you and little wayne but because he smoked so much he forgot he said it what's your excuse i don't smoke at all i just quote so much you just you're just saying you have so you have so many bars that you couldn't possibly remember your entire that was a very jay-z like response i will say yeah i'm like a jeopardy category category okay you know quotable quotables potent potables quote and quotables yeah so i i did have to i did have to laugh i thought well either i'm incredibly unoriginal or i have dementia yeah it's probably a little bit of both i mean i or you just have a good level of healthy confidence hey that shit sounds good sounds like something i would say oh i did say it got it okay cool sounds about right it'd be weird if i didn't say something so epic i just had to write back and say wow you know i didn't mean to just pat myself on the back collier has done it again it was a gaze thing i'm sure oh i see it all goes back to the gaze it sounds like based on based on what you've said so far yeah so have you tried as as you have the lesbian gaze on on a lockdown you've got a good good position of it we have the the straight male gaze on a lockdown a little bit are you trying to expand to other demographics other gazes you know i think that the thing honestly is i had the gay male gaze from 18 to 30 because i was so i was so inspired by gay male artists and art and and that was the stuff that i was exposed to anyway that was the stuff in 1981 we had way more of that kind of thing can i ask were you just were you discovering this yourself or was someone helping you i think it's like it's chance and serendipity i went to kmart in new jersey in like i'm trying to think when i was driving maybe 1977 no 1978 and in the dollar bin there was a tom robinson album uh called glad to be gay with a fist this was before i was technically gay but i was drawn so i got the album and there were liner notes and in the liner notes that had all these amazing indigenous peoples hotline suicide hotline um it had gay recommendations and one was a james baldwin book giovanni's room and i immediately went to the library and got that book happy that it it was there and and so i think that began the path of kind of learning about homosexuality from men maybe learning about men from homosexuals well we talk all the time on this show about the importance of liner notes and how you would discover things that was like the only way to discover things in in that in a different time period i'm surprised something like that got through into kmart in the 70s yeah even kmart now i can't fathom it it's it's it's crazy you know it's just like one of those things like i think there's been a couple of things for me where it's like uh you know the virgin mary crying tears you're just like this is a miracle i don't know how that that shit works But, you know, it's partially like my whole mantra of working has been to put my images out into the world because there weren't enough for me.

29:38And like I really sucked down every scrap of what was available at the time. So if it was like Calvin Klein advertising, you know, that was something. Right. And so it is great to put the messages in the bottles. And now there's such great carriers for that. Oh, yeah. Some serious, serious stuff here. No, I mean, I honestly, I'm like Jason. I'm stunned that that was in Kmart because then it feels when you find something like that in Kmart, it feels extra special. It feels more powerful because it's like this shouldn't be here. And I got a pin. I think I mailed away and I got a Tom Robinson glad to be gay pin with a fist and a word to high school.

30:21And I remember some kids saying to me, oh, someone could think you're gay. And I said, oh, no, it's that would be crazy.

30:30Jason Stewart:Little did they know. Yeah. Then you get the little a few moments later, we all realized. But I went there's a glad to be gay dot net. The website is still up and running. The pink fist is there and you can get some nice guitar tabs. if you want to learn some of those gay songs. And there's a really good yellow pin that says glad to be gay in red letters. I think it would be a nice eBay find for some New Jersey gay ephemera collectors. I can see you have some ephemera behind you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've got a baseball jersey. I threw out a pitch at a Cubs game last summer. I've got my Pet Shop Boys poster to sort of, that's my conversation starter.

31:09Jason Stewart:Usually we tell people if somebody brings it up, It's going to be a good episode. Brandon Flowers from The Killers was the last person to bring it up. And now maybe you? I really enjoyed the Pet Shop Boys and was actually asked to photograph them recently. And I don't think I can do it, but I imagine the conversation would be really fun. Can't you move some things around and do it? It requires getting on a plane. I was going to say the pay is probably not great, just based on the context clues. Well, if there was pay, you know, obviously I would go. That's what I— Oh, you said money. Okay, so do you—like, were you more in—like, were you more prone to hop on a plane when you were younger, and you've reduced it as you've gotten older, or have you always been sort of anti-get-on-a-plane?

32:01I mean, I had seven years of agoraphobia, so I didn't—I missed half the 90s. I didn't hop on any planes. Yeah. What? Yes, yes. I didn't go to my own shows. That's cool. First of all, that's rock star shit. I like that. It was baller. It was like my version of taking out the green M &Ms. Yeah, that's, yeah, brown only. Okay, hold on. You're saying there was a period where you were fine to fly, and then one day it was like, I can't do this anymore. Yeah, I mean, flying wasn't the worst of it. I couldn't get on the subway.

32:29Jason Stewart:So agoraphobic, like fear of leaving the house in general for the most part. It's just a general anxiety. and I was living in Williamsburg in the early days, 1980 and 30. I wouldn't want to leave my house either. Back when Williamsburg was Williamsburg. I was just like, I don't really want to leave. But anyway, thankfully I recovered from that. And partially I recovered because I was starting to do this commercial work and I had to. Like, I was being offered a kind of money that I could not have conceived of. And it wasn't a lot, you know, comparatively to, you know, say what Mario Testino is pulling in.

33:16But for me, it was a lot. Don't throw Testino into the bus here, okay? We got catching strays. I don't, you know. But you're saying that the green pulled you out of your agoraphobic... I'm saying that the green made me have to. Yeah, you didn't have, yeah. Made me have to.

33:32Jason Stewart:Or else you wouldn't have a home to hide inside of, right? Yes. Yes. Or else I'd be stuck in that Williamsburg apartment for the rest of my life. You'd still be there. Yeah. I was hoping for some sort of strange therapy you had to go through, but you're saying just money. I thought it was just going to be alcohol and drugs got me out of my house. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what it was for me. No, I'm the queen of moderation. I truly have, I'm not an addictive because I saw Sarah T portrait of an alcoholic, you know, on like afterschool program or something when I was little. And I was like, I was like, I get it.

34:06I will never do this.

34:09Jason Stewart:Really? Yeah. So when's the last time you threw up in a toilet? From alcohol. Yeah, not from herring. I was about to say. Never. I don't think ever. Ever? I don't think ever. Ever? Why do you think I look so young? I mean, you do. I was going to say, I don't know your age, but based on your drive. Yeah, you do look good. I'm not trying to gas you up. You do look good. Amazing. I understand. What are you doing, though? You're not washing your face with bar soap, are we? How old school are we? No, no bar soap. No, very sensitive skin. It is general products that a fabulous makeup artist named Yumi always gives me something after a shoot.

34:50That's nice. She dyes my eyebrows. and she gives me some frames. This is nice. How often do you get a haircut on set? Every time. Nice. I just, because you keep your hair relatively short, that requires some maintenance, you know what I mean? Yeah, I got really lucky because there's a really great hairstylist, James Pesce, and he lives in Costa Rica, so it's really hard to work with him. But we did a Giselle shoot. Can't do those haircuts remote over Zoom. We did a Giselle shoot like a month ago. And, you know, I said, James, I'm going to, I really need, I'm trying to do the Sid Vicious thing.

35:30And it's just, it's got to be cut all the time. And so after the shoot, I did that shoot so fucking fast. We were finished at three o 'clock because Giselle and I are the fastest humans in the world when it comes to fashion photography. And so James cut my hair. and then you know the most fabulous thing happened which is i had to shoot a month later in new york and i just thought you know i'm gonna see if james could be tempted and in fact he was and he came over so i got it cut again it does it does have a sid vicious feel to it now that you say that yeah i mean it's a little puffy right now it's probably a little ad rock but well i wasn't gonna say that but it is now now that you say ad rock wow but you're saying if you're going out beastie down if you're going out you'll put some product in it is that what you're saying to give it a more i don't put the product i don't put the product it's not that i want it spiky i just wanted it round okay and i and i don't know why because james said to me james said well that's funny because usually square is more masculine and i said james who said i wanted to be masculine james james was making an ass out of himself by assuming around

36:39Jason Stewart:mushroom top haircut that's sort of lesbian 101 right there the thing is like everyone has their idea about hair and shape and things have changed so much in boys hair like if you see all these tiktok boys with this sort of mullet shave sides and it's now the time for curly brown hair we've never had a time this is our time you see like people getting guys getting perms fluffing it up puffing it up. I wish I saw less of it. I wish I saw less of it. I'm really offended by that haircut. That TikTok hair all fluffy in the front. There's a name for it. And I always forget what it's called because I see these videos as well.

37:20And then I'm walking around Copenhagen and that's every guy's got on big ass jorts, some sort of bad loafer and that haircut. And I'm always like, this haircut isn't necessarily flattering no matter how chiseled your jaw is. I completely agree with you. And I have not at all done the shave side thing. I am in a different genre but my hair naturally lends itself to that kind of i don't know i see him as a cute sensitive boy that has suffered with not having like hair that moves when he moves his head and suddenly

37:52Jason Stewart:it's his time i looked it up it's called the broccoli haircut yes yes yes right i would say i would say that your hair and this is the highest compliment that i could pay is good and normal You know what I mean? It looks good. It's a nice, solid American haircut. No horseshit. But it looks good. Midwest haircut in the most positive way. I mean, a point of pride for me is that my brother actually went to a lesbian barber at some point. Because he's like, I want to get good hair. And he has shown my haircut to his now Turkish barber in New Jersey. and um you know we talk about hair a lot and we'll compare our hair because we both have it what is the family hairline look is everybody blessed or is it's good nice everyone yeah because my my mom's father had hair so all the boy cousins have a lot of thick hair we're all lucky my brother's you know 60 and he looks good the hairy shores the hairy shores he plays he plays guitar in a band called River.

38:57Oh, okay. This is his job or this is his hobby? No, his job is he runs marketing and events for Land Rover Jaguar in North America. Oh, okay. He's got the hair and the car. Hairy and successful shores. I like that. I feel like I've met your brother. It's possible I've met your brother in my tanglings with Range Rover. That's not a joke. I'm sure you have. He's the tall version of me and he's a cool guy.

39:25Jason Stewart:Does that mean that you have a Range Rover right now, or are you carless in the city? No, I do have a parking space. Okay. And a license. That's not the question we ask. We ask, do you have a Range Rover? No. I sometimes think about that half, you know, the half Defender. Yeah, the two-door Defender is the best one they make. Yeah. Two-door Defender is cute. I really like that. But I'm more attracted, you know, sorry to say, to the Toyota Land Cruiser. Okay. Which I think is so cool. So you're going against the family. Your brother just clicked stop on this episode. Well, my brother is just like, you're not going to get a car, so why don't you stop talking about it?

40:03I'm surprised. I feel like people, I know a lot of people that are successful New Yorkers, and it feels like there's a point where you have enough money and you have enough space, and maybe you have a house somewhere that you drive to on the weekends, and a car becomes a necessary evil. No, I mean, my girlfriend lives in Hudson, so. Well, that's the gayest thing you've ever said. I know.

40:24Jason Stewart:It's great. I love Cafe Mutton. I'm assuming you've been there. I have not been to Cafe Mutton. I've been to... Mama. What's the one? Little Dubs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've been to Little Dubs. Next door. It's a competition of which one is more non-binary and it's... Gay, yeah. I know. I have to go to the Mutton. Maybe both of them have a basket at the door with a collection of Afghans and blankets that you can drape over your legs. The thing is I'm not like a big eater of Ophel, which I think they have a lot. It's not. No, the name Mutton can scare you and throw you off if you're not a real Ophel eater.

41:02Jason Stewart:But I just go there and get the crepe pancakes. They're so good. Next time you're in town, get the pancakes. Smoke a little something in the parking lot. It's real nice. How old is your girlfriend age appropriate? root my girlfriend is perfect age of 50 52 that is it that is a beautiful age still got 10 years on her her name is is suzanne she's an oral historian nice she's very bright very smart oral historian don't don't say that to us you can't we don't do that you're dangling don't tee us up like that collier she she runs the oral history summer school in Hudson so you could take classes. She teaches at the Nancy Reagan Oral School of History.

41:47Right now she's up at Columbia running a program. This is cool. Can you explain to me, obviously I'm familiar with oral history, I've read several, what is the syllabus if we sign up for her class? What are we taking away? Well, I mean, in her class it's kind of, it's for people, you know, it's sort of serious. That's the thing. Like if you think about, I'm sorry, I'm stuttering because it's like I'm under a lot of pressure to deliver correctly. The book Chernobyl, that's an oral history. Let's start light. Sure. Right? Well, that's at least the thing that turned into a TV show so people know what it is.

42:24So oral history is about sort of collecting testimony interviews by people who have lived lives that need to be documented. And that could be, you know, someone who won an Academy Award and it's their work or it could be a social worker or it could be a witness to something or a police chief. And it's just it's a kind of journalism and history mixed together. But basically, there's no editorializing. You're not steering the subject to tell you what you want them to tell you. It's documenting the facts straight from the horse's mouth.

43:02Jason Stewart:I was going to say this sounds a lot like a podcast until that last part. And presenting the audio. Yeah. And not editing it. But I'll tell you my favorite oral history story, which is Norman Mailer's Executioner's Song. Great book about the killer Gary Gilmore. He never met any of those people. He bought the oral history from someone who had covered that whole story. he bought the oral history and wrote a book about it yeah so the way that you would buy the rights to someone's life or someone's book he bought the oral histories and then turned it around he's a nice history you have there would be a shame if somebody wrote a book based on it but i mean it's good that he paid the money and you know it's a it's a fair transaction he paid the money to the guy yeah how do you put a price on oral you know what i mean i mean i always think i give good oral but it wasn't until I met Suzanne that I realized that it's about the give and take.

44:01Okay. That's a powerful thing to learn in any relationship. I'm, yeah, I'm, I was going to go either. You were going to have an age appropriate academic or a 30 year old thought. I didn't know which way it was going to go. So I'm glad it, I'm glad it went, it could go either way for anyone. That's not, that's not personal to you. You know, have you looked at my, yes, I have. I have actually, I have looked at your,

44:22Jason Stewart:what your roster.

44:27yeah your your work can mean two different things in this scenario you know what i mean

44:32Jason Stewart:well chris is saying it either could have gone 52 in hudson or 27 in ridgewood you know what i mean right yeah that's 57 in hudson is a dream come true what is your relationship to hudson because i find it to be sort of a little too brooklynified you know like gay guy antique stores but that's part of the charm yeah it's funny i didn't really know hudson until i went to buy my brother uh a birthday present and everything felt so twee and like perfect in an ai kind of way so i couldn't i couldn't find a thing and there's tons of men's shops there it it's you know the great thing about where suzanne lives um is that it's like off the the main street and so you start seeing a bit more of the kind of culture of the town but hudson's you know really interesting place because it's got multiple populations um it was really working class town that's now totally gentrified like williamsburg so you know coming from williamsburg it is williamsburg upstate new york is crazy because i think people don't realize what it is kind of like obviously when you're in these pockets where it's all you know new yorkers that have spent a lot of money to make it the way they want it but then as soon as you get outside of that you could be in birmingham alabama it does it like the the vibe is the vibe can switch very quickly it's a quick quick drop off of change i feel like covid was a big part of uh of new yorkers discovering it definitely made the prices go up everywhere else except for new york city You're not a beach person?

46:10I love the beach. Are you kidding me? I just rented my ex-girlfriend's house in Kutchog on the North Fork, and it just blew my mind. I've mainly gone to the South Fork, and the North Fork is just magical. Hold on, hold on, hold on. We're back up one second here.

46:30Jason Stewart:Okay, the North Fork. This house was bought after your breakup, so you had never been there before? I had never been there before. But I'd seen pictures and there was like a few dates that were available. So I grabbed them and I went with my brother actually because my girlfriend was away. And we were sitting at the pool because they had a pool. And he's like, you know, I keep on thinking about, and I'll just say your ex-girlfriend, are you? And I said, weirdly, the only time I think about it is when I see that vase. that I found. So you're saying there was a vase that maybe you had given as a gift or helped furnish.

47:12There was a vase and an ashtray that I had bought for our house that didn't stay in our house. Okay. You lost those. I lost those. But no, I was just so happy. I was really like happy that she had pulled that off. You know, it's like so cool. Her and her wife had pulled off this house in Kachog. Have you been married before? No. Okay. And lesbians, y 'all stay friends? Is that the vibe? Not, no, not. That's just some, you know, if the walls could talk too. Okay.

47:49Jason Stewart:What percentage of exes are we still on, you know, friendly enough terms where we're renting each other's homes? I mean, I only have one ex that has a summer house. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Quince. Jason, as you know, but some of our listeners might not, Quint specializes in everyday staples that work harder, like their ultra soft organic cotton tees and premium Mongolian cashmere sweaters. I like my navy blue V-neck cashmere sweater. I wear it all the time. It's a little hot right now, but it's a go-to. It's versatile, timeless, and it transitions seamlessly from a casual workday to a big dinner out.

48:27Jason Stewart:Yeah, and almost every day you're taking a big dinner, and then afterwards, I like to come home from that dinner, take a nice cold shower, and then go into those nice quince sheets with a quince pillow. And they're priced so well that, you know, we can pop them out and get new ones every year, and it feels so beautiful. We don't have to sit on those old pillows for so long, fella. Go on quince, get some freshies for when that partner comes over, and they're going to say, wow, it's so cool, and it smells so clean and nice in here. upgrade your everyday, download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, go to quince.com slash howlong, get free shipping and 365-day returns now available in Canada, let's go, and the UK, mate.

49:07Q-U-I-N-C-E.com slash howlong. You've heard us talk about BetterHelp for a long-ass time, but I don't know that we've ever actually talked about how much people love the service when they actually use it. You can go check it out for yourself. You don't have to believe me and Bozo here. You can go to betterhelp.com slash reviews, and you can read all the amazing reviews in real time. They're updated every day with hundreds of people saying how much they love BetterHelp and how helpful it's been to them.

49:34Jason Stewart:They're going to be great reviews and you could see like, oh, this person recommended this therapist for this one specific thing and that's what I'm interested in as well. Let the reviews help you find who you need to look for and with over 6 million people having already used the BetterHelp app globally, you know, this consistent feedback from real users makes it easy to see why so many people continue to use BetterHelp. See the reviews, see what stands out, and see if BetterHelp is right for you. Visit betterhelp.com slash howlong. That's betterhelp.com slash howlong. I will say this. Lesbians do feel a pressure to stay friends and stay in touch, and sometimes it's great and sometimes it's really hard um i've only had two really long-term relationships and so those are the ones that you know have been the most valuable and the trickiest yeah yeah of course of course yeah you know i feel like i'm in good standing with both of them you have you have good lesbian credit i feel it well why do you feel like you have feel or why do you feel like lesbians feel the need to remain friends afterwards?

50:45Jason Stewart:Just the sisterhood of it all? Well, because there's not so many and there's a lot of, you know, they're in the community so they're gonna be at the party that you go to. We're gonna see each other again. Yeah. We're gonna be at the Patti Smith reading, honey. We better become friends. I don't know who's the first you know, lesbian that was like, I need to be friends with my girlfriend. Who was that lesbian? I don't know. We need an oral history on this. It wasn't Susan Sontag, I'm sure. I mean, well, the trope I always hear about lesbians is that the joke is you bring a U-Haul on the first date.

51:19That's what I always hear all the time. Because there's a quick cohabitation is what I've been. I don't know. Obviously, I'm asking if that is a...

51:26Jason Stewart:I know a couple of guys who act like lesbians. Well, I think, you know, to be honest, I think when people are younger, especially in cities, you do do that because it's, you know, everyone knows like it's cheaper, cheaper to live with someone. But yeah, it is because lesbians process and talk about feelings and generally have a desire to have happily ever after and make a nest. I think it is like not really, it is true. But I think also, I think also in 2026, there's a lot of lesbians out there in program and they are trying to work on those attachment fantasies. fantasies what kind of program are we talking about program what do we mean by program and you any of the 12-step programs have like a chapter and attachment yeah sure okay i feel like you have a good familiarity with the 12 steps considering that you're not a person that's in it yourself i love the 12 steps i'm i'm you know i'm in the program of the um love someone else that has issues you like a you like a fucked up i got you i understand i mean I understand.

52:39You know, like I am in what would be called recovery. So no, I'm not going down that path anymore. But, you know, anyone that you meet, I think if you meet someone who's sexy and smart and has their shit together, there's also the deep, murky, shadowy stuff. I try to tell this to my wife all the time. I'm like, baby, this is what you signed up for. You know, it looks good on the outside, but on the inside, not as great. Right. I mean, I just have to say Scorpio. Okay.

53:09Jason Stewart:So dating me is user error. That's on you for not recognizing this piece of fruit was bruised. I just think that no matter what you encounter, I just actually heard Esther Perel say this real gem, which was that people like to know the end of a story. So when they meet someone, they fill in the blanks because they're like, I want to know that this is going to be great. So you make your own assumptions and plug them in. I'm going to make it great. Okay. And then you make it great and then you're attached to this idea. Yeah. Right. Right. Is that not like a mic drop? That's classic Esther right there.

53:53That's definitely true for Jason. I mean, definitely true for Jason.

53:56Jason Stewart:But also, I feel like you have a keen eye as well for photography and images, of course, but for these quotables and potent potables, I feel like you recognize these mic drop moments because you're a bit of a mic dropper yourself. Is that fair to say? Yeah. I mean, I did study journalism. I know. I've got a couple quotes from the line. One of them, forever locked out of being able to exist as a spectacle. Here's my mic. I just dropped it. Oh, yeah. I mean, that was... Oh, that's shit. I know. That's actually, I would be upset if that wasn't me. That one, I'd be upset if it wasn't me. So now, but you're existing as a spectacle a little bit now, right?

54:36Well, in that, you know, in that project, in that book, it is like, I guess it is an alter ego in a way. But yeah, at 55, I started dancing and I am not a dancer, nor am I a person that particularly thought I should be looked at. And that's why I was a photographer. But then I did this crazy adaptation of a French Chantel Ackerman film and danced it with all these great dancers. and uh and so then there's a kind of proof of me as someone that i may or may not be it feels like participatory journalism in a way and a but but photographic you know that's what i it's not an oral history it's a physical history well i just always think of those stories and then you know usually those are written it's rare that those stories are told with pictures that's that's a really good point i mean i guess like you know the what i thought was the first thing was that i wanted to photograph a performance because i love all these you know like even not to like break off but like charlie xcx i've been asked to photograph her a couple of times it didn't work out but every time i see her perform i'm like my head blows up but when i see the photographs it's not the same feeling so i guess like steering back to to me and the performance i wanted to photograph a performance and then i was like i want to make the pictures fully before i photograph them so i've got to be in it i just wanted to be whatever that person that carried carried it through because i wanted to own it all i didn't want to document somebody else i mean i like that

56:30Jason Stewart:you're refreshingly honest about it because somebody could could look at it as like you know i'm trying to make this about this thing about me or i'm trying to take this work and put it through my lens for for more adoration and less for like i guess you know you were talking about preserving the queer histories and taking these things and if you don't repurpose them and put them out then they'll sort of fall through the cracks to never really be seen again. And I think it's cool. Have you wondered where this work will go? Who is going to transform it next for the next generation? Yeah, I want dance companies to want to dance it.

57:10Jason Stewart:But if you adapted a film that features an infamous lesbian scene that's sort of long form and clinical, you turn it into a ballet, you know maybe next it's a podcast or something you know what i mean or next it's what it could take on any form of art i mean the fact that i don't have a podcast is shocking right i think we're all learning that in real time as this yeah you're you're you you've thought about it a lot i can tell well no i just i just remember when i started at sba in the first year of their media journalism program where they didn't really have anything but a newsroom i was picked as the person who had the best radio voice you know i always thought i could do i could do a late night i could do a phone sex i could do a late night radio i love to chat this could be your third act you're the hudson valley npr late night i'm sure you call in i'm sure you apply this i mean you Now, making the subject comfortable and relaxed and chatty, that's 80 % of the job.

58:13Exactly. Yeah, I do what you do just without a microphone. But if someone puts a microphone in my hand, I don't want to give it back. Sure. Sure. It's like, bring the hook. You don't have to bring the hook to get me out.

58:27Jason Stewart:So whenever they put the lav mic on you and the shoot's done, we're just going to take this right out. And you're like, no, no, no. No, please. I'm good. Let's just go five minutes. Can I wear the lav during lunch? I won't talk. I'll wear it to the bathroom. You can keep recording. I don't care. It's fine. But, you know, the risk, of course, is saying the wrong thing. I don't know anything about that. No, I've never done that. You guys don't have to worry about that. Oh, yes, we do. Why do you? I wrote to you that my brother used to say, oh, you're like Howard Stern. And it was sort of the nicest, meanest thing he ever said.

59:04Because he loves Howard Stern. but you know sure we all love howard but howard's had many faces so so this so this one example don't

59:12Jason Stewart:don't go down this road or you'll become 100 multi-millionaire world famous most famous radio personality of all time this seems like a good thing i mean i love it's like watch out don't don't go playing basketball you might end up like michael jordan yeah it's just the thing is like you know i'm like i'm like my own raw material and i have like a lot of good impulses and then i have you know what comes into my head and so i you know i'm very aware of not getting in trouble maybe you're too aware you're too aware like you have no you've never even awful stuff and we we get away with it because you kind of own it you you would get away with it as well.

59:58Jason Stewart:And also, if you say something truly terrible, like Hitler had some good ideas, you got the editor, you know? Yeah. I mean, I really do a lot to not do Anne Frank jokes. That's good. Because some people can't resist. So maybe you are nastier than we realize. I will say that we've learned over the years of doing How Long Gone to sort of, I would say, self-edit on the fly. You sort of learn where the lines are pretty quickly, I would say when you're talking three hours a week, sort of unfiltered, you would be surprised how quickly you, you learn what works and it becomes subconscious. I'm sure. I mean, it, it, it's, you know, they're like important relationships that you don't want to tank because it feels really fun and exciting to just say something.

1:00:44I've tanked, I've tanked some. I mean, I, you know, I was just, I was just telling my brother, oh, I miss those days when Howard was with his first wife because she was this amazing foil for this like obnoxious, you know, and you were just like, wow, she just stays. She somehow, she gets him.

1:01:02Jason Stewart:And that's what creates good energy. If you have, you know, Howard and a wife who's just agreeing with everything, nobody wants to hear two people agreeing on stuff. It's not entertaining. Like many of our greats, I think Howard might have suffered from making too much money. It's tough. It's tough to be. yeah it's when you when you have that kind of money you can relate me i can't call you you can relate no not you chris not you i was like i cannot relate at all at all i'm broke always uh what is okay so this dancing though i want to get back to this because this seems very this seems very um when did you feel like free doing it like how deep into the process did it take you to mentally like let go and really be in the flow state i mean it was almost immediate because also I started it when um 2019 I believe 2019 which was a breakup for me of an eight-year relationship with a great person uh but it was it was a difficult relationship towards the end and I could have never danced because she would have just made fun of me like I you know I think I had had the idea but um and so I went into it you know I I hired a friend who was a dancer to kind of give me some lessons and I immediately was like oh my god I can be as angry and crazy as I need to be in this space and and that's going to make whatever I'm doing better and so i kind of you know it's a real measuring stick nobody knows but it's a total measuring stick of where i was in all these different you know emotional states happy unhappy in love broken hearted which really traces what the original film is about where you see someone kind of you know miserable and broken hearted and obsessive and and then finally gets to this like the holy land of back in the bed with someone they desire.

1:03:10Hey, babe, it's Sarah. You want to go back to the holy land? It's just like the thing that you wanted more than anything, and you get it, and then the movie's over. So that seemed like a great thing to dance.

1:03:23Jason Stewart:Yeah. When I was reading that, there was a couple prompts that you, I guess verbal prompts of how a dancer should dance in this particular scene. One of them, your body is a mattress, which feels a little, you know, I guess that's John Mayer and Charlie XCX combined maybe. And then the one I liked a lot is instructing somebody to argue with elegance, which seems like I just want to turn myself inside out just thinking about that. Yeah, I mean, I think it's like interpreting gestures. So if you watch a film, and we're talking about an experimental French film, where often not much happens. Nothing worse than an experimental French film, am I right?

1:04:08So just like to give you like a bird's eye view, there's a scene where Chantel Ackerman is sitting at a table and she's looking with desire at her ex-lover and she reaches her hand over and starts fingering the buttons on her blouse and unbuttoning them. And the ex-lover's head is kind of shaking and it's a classic you know no and yes hey whoa whoa hey we get consent here on how long gone whoa whoa whoa whoa so if you imagine that table and that arm and the unbuttoning make a dance you know there's like that's a perfect place to start yeah a dance and so so that's what i did with the whole you know the whole piece i mean including you know there's one third of that movie involves a truck driver who drives her you know picks her up on the road and drives her to the ex-lover's house and there's implied sex between those two people so there's a straight you know third of the movie god thank god we get to see some pole i danced with uh i we they described the pole um i i danced with the male dancer vincent fraley and in my mind i was like dancing you're having sex with someone that is a different gender than you're used to and you're going to bring this energy this is my projection i want to do this i don't want to do this i don't know what i'm doing and then suddenly i'm up in the air in his arms that's the dance what an image big strong man a big strong man he's a big strong man i never understood men and their power until i was up in the air hey hell yeah hell yeah welcome back baby

1:05:58Jason Stewart:okay we almost got you we were this close yeah my my version of that is is i'm the guy at whole foods who hands the thing at the top shelf that you can't reach yeah yeah i mean i've always used men in a pedestrian manner but not surprised not surprised never use them to literally lift you up with a power that you don't have as a woman. Exactly. I do want to talk about your style on set. If I were to ask maybe a studio manager, a longtime assistant, how do you think they would describe your demeanor when it's your show, no matter who the subject is? Style of work, not outfit, you mean? Yes. Yes.

1:06:35I mean, I like to think it's kind of like, well, I mean, I just think it can't be beat.

1:06:43Jason Stewart:well it's industry standard top class but that took me a long time the first 10 years of shooting I felt like if a woman walked into the studio and saw me she would be disappointed that I wasn't Juergen Teller even though you got the same glasses it just ain't the same it's just not the same I wasn't that guy you have some German history though don't you well I dated a German for 20 years okay so you're honorary But you don't wear hot pink booty shorts and hide behind trees is what you're saying. No. And actually, you know, Jürgen's not my like. North star. There's a history of fashion photographers that are, you know, like that guy in Blow Up or something.

1:07:26But I got over that and, you know, accepted myself as a great hostess. And, you know, shoot with me is like, you're not hungry. You're not cold. you are not standing in heels when you don't have to be you get to leave at 5 30 you've had a great conversation you look great in the pictures you're not wondering if your car got towed you're not

1:07:51Jason Stewart:wondering when you're going to get paid it just feels good yeah you know i'm there's just you know i don't know what other people's sets are like but you know i'm very friendly and i'm very translates that comes through has that ever has that ever been at odds of like really caring and then being really fast have you ever gone in like all right we got the shot and they're like that's it this feels like i should there should be more no okay no no one no one needs there to be more everyone is happy when we got the shot it's kind of like the shot can be short but like passionate yeah like every you know i don't phone in anything and if i did like my body would probably feel better after work longer doesn't always mean better no longer means people are tortured and i'm cranky and you know i mean i get i have adhd so like by four o 'clock you know i like to tell people i'm fast but i can't be fast like this for 12 hours i'm i'm it's like a battery counter there's like a certain amount that exists to me i could spread it out or i could i could do it in seven hours however you want to slice it but we only got this many yeah you know the bell goes the bell goes off well you but i'm i'm at this point i'm sure you've been photographed by by some of your peers or or people maybe you looked up to at some point is that fair to say the only person i guess like brigitte lacone took a picture of me and she made me look like i was in loma vogue like i was like fuck i am approaching richard gear here i'm okay so see that's kind of interesting though that's a good feeling i imagine when that's usually your job to have the tables turn that's probably a great feeling yeah i photographed annie leibowitz recently and you know i was as you can imagine it's a mother off i was apprehensive you know i mean i was excited Yeah, I can imagine.

1:09:57I can imagine. I just wasn't sure what that would be like. And it was trending. She would be having a little control. But then when I got there, suddenly she was kind of like, okay, here I am. What do you want to do?

1:10:16Jason Stewart:Let's see what you got, bitch. Yeah. And I was like, I know how to shoot you. I can shoot you. And of course it's really difficult because she's so iconic that you take a picture and you feel like, well, that looks like a picture that she's taken of herself. Oh, I see. Yeah, sure, sure, sure. But we did a bunch of pictures in a mirror together, which was really cool. Meaning you're visible in the picture with the camera? Yeah, like I was taking the picture into a mirror and we were next to each other. and uh you know it was kind of a dream come true and a testament to my ability to make friends at work okay yeah i i don't yeah i imagine that is intimidating in some way but i'm glad she let go and let god in this case your god i guess i thought she was like actually super sexy you know like she's in really good shape she does a lot of yoga and and it's like baller we were in bryce Martin's old studio overlooking the Hudson River that she had just bought and wasn't even decorated yet.

1:11:18She hadn't even shot. Real estate mogul Annie Leibovitz strikes again. Here we go. Yeah. I was just like everything I've heard is true. That's good. That's cool. I mean, I just feel like, yeah. Now, when is there a time you can remember where you were intimidated? By who? By the subject. No, no. I mean, maybe Jodie Foster. It's not intimidated. It's kind of like you want the person to like you and you want to be able to figure out how to make the best picture of them that ever existed. Sure. Because you want them to say this was the best day of my life. And often they do.

1:11:53Jason Stewart:Often they do. The shore effect, as they say. Often they do. Well, I mean, I do think, I guess intimidated maybe isn't the right word, but I guess there's some people, especially if you've loved their work and have for years, that it becomes a different thing in your own mind, sort of, before you get there. Yeah. Yeah, you know, it's such a step-by-step thing. So there are places like, you know, shooting Michelle Obama in the White House was, I mean, I was intimidated. She's like over six feet tall and we're in the White House. Big Mike. It was a physical intimidation. It had nothing to do. It's just like overwhelming.

1:12:28But the minute I have the camera. You're good. And I'm taking a picture, it's like it switches. You know, at first I was calling her Mrs. Obama. and then I was just like Michelle over here okay look at me Michelle and and that wasn't like presumptuous of me it was just like my my mindset but uh you know Barbara Streisand was a little intimidating when she started to tell me how to light well I figured she I thought she might have her own people for that or at least her own retoucher a skin person but also was Barbara

1:12:59Jason Stewart:right about the lighting like I feel like she's been on set no well she she said oh you know usually i do this and i turned the screen and i showed her what i did and she said oh okay you shut you shut her out you shut her ass right up sit down i had a question uh you you mentioned being add as somebody who's sort of obsessed adhd adhd sorry jason um do you feel like you obsess more over the lighting before a shoot or the edit after the shoot both if anything the the lighting i mean i because i come from like the film time so there wasn't that much retouching when i i first started and so you had to get the light and i would be so embarrassed on set with a screen if the light didn't look amazing like i'm too needy of approval and validation you mean with a monitor with like somebody looking at that yeah yes i really like i love that i love the applause you know oh i like you want the applause before a picture has even been taken you want the lighting to be set and that's how that's real photography you go up and you you just you open the shutter and the all the work has already been done i literally can't handle if it doesn't look good if the person doesn't look good i just can't handle it i mean that means you care there's a there's a trend i think there is a trend now of sort of unflattering and maybe there always has been but sort of like unflattering pictures being sort of considered more like real and raw and I don't have any interest in that myself.

1:14:29I'm with you. You want people to look good. That's sort of the whole point. You want them to look good, but you also, you want them to look like them. So the raw thing that I'm interested in is shadows on the wall or texture of skin. I do yearn for pictures from a time in which you can feel the kind of presence of people, but i don't get off on making someone look like ratchet yeah yeah sure sure yeah it's something

1:15:00Jason Stewart:beyond just like what if pamela anderson wasn't wearing makeup i mean i shot pam like a couple of months ago and she you know she said look i was interested in not wearing makeup it doesn't mean i'm not interested in ever wearing it um but it was a fucking relief to shoot her because I knew I didn't have to make her look like she was 30 years old. And she looks so beautiful. She looks amazing. It's really powerful, actually. And talk about somebody who knows how to have their picture taken, right? She knows how to have her picture taken, and she becomes an actress when she's doing it, and you become her director, and that feels like it's the only relationship in her life.

1:15:41It was truly a revelation to work with her. Gotta slide into those DMs, sure. Who do you think you've shot the most consistently as far as a musician or an actor? I guess Kristen Stewart. Oh, yeah. Okay, okay. That makes sense. Love Kristen. Because I shot her when she was 16 for Interview. And then I've shot her a bunch of times. Were those pictures, what were those? There was a zine, wasn't there? That was something that we did later. We made a zine. Yeah. That was with O32C? Yes. What t-shirt was she wearing? She was wearing a really good t-shirt. Get off my dick. Get off my dick. Yes. Those are great.

1:16:21I have that somewhere. Those are great pictures. A classic. BC Boys shirt. Yes. Like that was the magic of, you know, we were kind of talking about this film that she did based on the JT Leroy story written by Savannah Knup who played the fictional. I think about JT Leroy all the time and how that came and it was so crazy big and now people don't even know what it is. Yeah. It's unbelievable how big it was. It was so insane that that could happen. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we just got together, the three of us, at Savannah's apartment and interviewed each other and made pictures. No PR, no publicist knew.

1:17:01And then I just said to O3TC, I've got this. Do you want it? And they were like, we already printed the magazine. We can do a cover and we'll make that into a zine and put it in the magazine. Well, for them, it's like, yeah, you're showing up like, hey, you want this. they're going to figure out a way to take it. Yeah, I gave them the best thing. And then, of course, we did the Rolling Stone pictures, which was, yeah, I guess a defining moment in my career just because I've never shot something that I know of that's been on late night talk shows. As the sort of like, we're going to bring this out.

1:17:37Jason Stewart:Yeah. People were talking about that. She's wearing a jockstrap with her hands down her pants and a leather vest. like it's yeah it's a lot for a rolling stone cover it's a lot for the country yeah it was it was a lot for men i think men just could not i think men couldn't understand um it took me longer to come watching these photos than normal yeah that's what you're saying well i think it was just a gateway to like being a fag for straight men like if straight men see that picture they're like oh hold on no wait just a gosh darn second i'm feeling things yeah this is making me feel weird and good uh i i find kristen stewart deeply deeply attractive and i i think that a lot of men feel that way no matter what she's the what the vest story is i think it's like she has something right she has a a pull to her they're like a lot of people of that caliber have they have something that you're really drawn to there's there's very few actors who are cool but people people like Kristen across the board in a way I've never seen that many different kinds of people respond to that person.

1:18:47It just is.

1:18:48Jason Stewart:To go from Twilight at that young age to now every box is checked. And she's still in her 30s. I would say she's the winner. I think it can only go up. Great last name. I see her around the east side of LA all the time. Kindred spirits. She taught me how to play golf. Wow, I didn't think this could get any more lesbian, but you somehow found a way. No, I was like, okay, because she wrote me and she said, look, I've got an idea for a shoot and I don't want to do it if it's not with you. And I said, what's the idea? And she said, I want to be a macho slut in the gym. I said that. Say less. Let's do it.

1:19:27Let's do it. And then I said, and I want you to teach me how to play golf after. Is Kristen Stewart a low-key good golfer? Yeah, I think she has a team. They have tattoos. she took me to a driving range and showed me how to do that and I think she's a very serious golfer. She's very committed to it. That's a nice wrinkle that I would not have expected.

1:19:50Jason Stewart:I'm looking up Kristen Stewart golf photos online and they do not disappoint. I think she's playing at Griffith Park. It shows her Yeah, that's where we went. The driving. There's literally a photo of her practicing her putting with a cigarette in her mouth and a Modelo beer on the ground. It looks like a homeless guy just wanted onto the golf course. But since it's Kristen Stewart, you're like, let's do it. That's hot. That's hot for everybody. Yeah, she's even got the sneakers. Yeah, she's wearing a Ben Davis jacket and some Reebok sneakers or something. It's too good. You've got to have some spikes.

1:20:26Because I like to do the thing full circle. In what sense? I just have these for me. Well, I want to really engage with the person. and I want to engage with the thing that they're willing to do and the thing that they want to communicate. And so some people, they really, you know, and that's why I mentioned, that's why I've shot her so many times because there's things that she wants to say, put in the world, and I generally am interested in those things. That's what can be so great about doing the work. You know, like I've been working with Sam Smith for a year on their album and we did like maybe seven shoots which is like unheard of for like when you do a record campaign you usually just do one day but we had this whole ramp up because they were saying i'm going to give you my record so you should know me i mean the more involved it is the better the final product

1:21:26Jason Stewart:should be so as somebody who likes to shoot fast with seven different shoots for the album cover a little excessive even for you? What's going on? Well, we did like PR shots and we did pictures for singles. That's the thing now. Nowadays, there's a lot of assets that you have to create. Spotify exclusive, Apple Music exclusive. I mean, it never ends. I mean, I did all that with Brandi Carla in one day. I was exhausted, but we made a million pictures and you'll see them scattered about. They get distributed. We just had a role model, the singer. he's on the episode that comes out right before yours but my wife works with him and they're the all it's the album it's the spotify it's this it's that it's just it's it's look after look like like 18 months full of images get cranked out in a day right and i like that because i like to know whenever i see a brandy picture it's going to be by me you got your stamp better be my picture god hands off better be mine you know what's funny we were in, Jason, we did How Long Gone at Wilco does a festival in Mexico and Brandy Carlile also does a festival in Mexico and it was at a different resort the same weekend.

1:22:38Oh, she did that gay thing, right? And let's just say we could tell the difference at the airport in Cabo, you know what I mean? Of who was going where. I know, I should have gone to that. That looked very Dinah Shore. It's very Dinah Shore with worse food, if that's possible, than Palm Springs. You would be staying off-site, I think yeah yeah I think I would need to be like in the vip pen there's a there's a place

1:23:03Jason Stewart:there's a beautiful four seasons just a 18 minute golf cart yeah we saved you a seat over at the four seasons um all right call your look thank you for your time we really appreciate it it was fun having you on how long gone had a blast I gotta say I'm just like how how can I find this mojo again in my life with you guys hang out with more straight guys yeah you exactly you're puzzle you're neglecting us actually funny we don't usually get neglected but i'm feeling now you're exposing me to the rest of the bro community exactly they you know what i think the bro our community will know your work but they maybe won't know your personality and that's what we're going to expose them to thank you so much for having me on our pleasure actually i met you a while ago we were i was at um four horsemen with my wife and my wife is a huge she's a stylist she's a huge fan of yours and she bought you a drink it was maybe like five years ago four years ago that was my birthday okay wow i had just come back from seeing tar and knowing that you're a teetotaler she did you you dumped the drink i'm assuming no no we had the drink that was so kind we'll please tell her hello i i will you did seem familiar yeah i was i don't know how long ago that was appreciated yeah of course it was cool so it's nice to meet you again nice to meet you too um when will this thing aired?

1:24:19How the hell are you going to edit it?

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