From Battlefield to Boardroom: Assessing the Cyber War Frontlines - Jen Easterly on the New Era of Cyber Risk

27:11Jen Easterly:And frankly, it's why it is absolutely so critical that everything that we do in cyberspace is rooted in catalyzing the right collaboration between the government and the private sector to enable us to reduce risk to that critical infrastructure. Schroeder's Capital is the private markets division of Schroeder's, combining the experience of specialized local teams with the scale, rigor, and resources of a global institutional platform. Schroeder's Capital provides its clients with global access to differentiated and specialized strategies encompassing all private markets asset classes, from private equity to real estate, infrastructure, and the broad universe of private debt and credit alternatives.

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28:52That's what IFM Investors has built up over 30 years. So all of this, and perhaps some of us are guilty of coming from the post-World War II sort of order, which is being revised under, you know, this administration, it was William Burns, ex-head of the CIA, who said in an interview the other day that the US's network of partners and allies is its advantage over China and Russia. But of course, there is the sense of the burning of bridges. This cooperation and intelligence sharing, how vital is it when we think about the adversarial communities battling in cyber?

29:32Jen Easterly:You know, it's absolutely critical. Look, at the end of the day, cyber must always, cybersecurity must always stay non-political and nonpartisan, defending global cyberspace from the range of threats, you know, whether it is state-sponsored adversaries or gangs of cyber criminals that are, you know, locking hospitals up and forcing them to pay ransoms. That is not a matter of politics. And so when I was in cybersecurity, certainly in the last administration, we worked very, very hard with our international partners to ensure that we were sharing the visibility that we saw all over the world. Ukraine was a great example of this.

30:19Jen Easterly:You know, we developed a terrific partnership with Ukraine's SSSCIP, our equivalent over in Kyiv, working with all of the partners in NATO to make sure that we had a common picture of the threat environment so that we could operate against it and reduce risk to threats to our critical infrastructure. So, you know, ultimately, I think it is to the detriment of any nation to politicize cybersecurity, because we absolutely are going to rely on those close partnerships we have, whether it's with our international partners or frankly, whether it's technology companies or business partners. We have to look at this as a fight for protection of our way of life against very vicious and aggressive adversary nations.

31:09So let's just talk about those competencies that are required, because whilst at one level we, you know, we can take some assurance that, you know, here in the West we have this accumulated knowledge and these deep pockets. But I think the data is basically that China produces 1.4 million engineering graduates a year, which is seven times that of the US. Now, that may not speak to the quality, but it certainly suggests that if the talent pool, which is going to help advance the skills that are required for this new world order, is the West at a disadvantage?

31:45Jen Easterly:Yeah. I'd say two things to that, Simon. First, we need to recognize, and this is really important for CEOs in any business, in this highly connected, highly vulnerable world that we live in, whether you're in the West or whether you're anywhere in the world, it is increasingly impossible to prevent disruption. You know, whether that's a cyber attack or a technology outage or disruption because of a weather event, geopolitical unrest, infectious disease. You know, this was one of the reasons why our friend Rob asked me to actually turn our cyber fusion center into our fusion resilience center with a recognition that frankly, there's so much out there that can disrupt your business.

32:28Jen Easterly:You actually need to assume disruption and build for resilience. And so, you know, yes, we are dealing with very vicious adversaries and some of which invest more people and more capabilities and more resources into them. But we need to make sure that no matter what, we are prepared for disruption. And that's one of the sort of key pieces of advice that I give when I speak to CEOs and boards. It sounds very obvious, but at the end of the day, you know, it is the responsibility of all leaders to be able to leverage the power of imagination without suffering a failure of imagination. That is, you know, one of the canonical lessons from 9-11.

33:10Jen Easterly:And planning, embracing, preparing for that worst case scenario, full range of threats, doing the exercises against it, being able to recover against it is incredibly important when you're dealing with threats like China in particular. And we can sort of talk about how I think about China. But the other thing I'd say is, look, at the end of the day, an autocratic nation like China will never be able to do what we can do in a place like the US. I mean, my most recent job is at the CEO of RSAC, which is essentially the largest, the global cybersecurity community platform. It's rooted in Silicon Valley.

33:52Jen Easterly:And one of the things that we do is we create this innovation startup ecosystem. We've had thousands of startup companies come through 100 acquisitions, 17.8 billions of dollars of investment. And that spirit of innovation, that spirit of experimentation, that spirit of entrepreneurialism, that fast failure in underwriting that failure at the end of the day, I think is what will make the US continue to be incredibly successful and the engine of innovation in the world. and we're seeing it with the AI labs, frankly, and how they're really leading the world. So, you know, yes, China is a very formidable adversary, which is why we need to focus on resilience, not trying to prevent disruption.

34:41Jen Easterly:But I think, you know, we will be driven by a spirit of individual entrepreneurialism and innovation that I think will, you know, continue to drive our economy. And just staying with China, Is it possible to assess the level of competencies and expertise when one is comparing as one might corporations operating in two different theaters? I mean, there's a saying, you know, we think about from a threats perspective, let's leave the criminals aside, although they're a significant portion of things that we need to be concerned about given cybercrime. But you think about the big four, really, it's Russia, China that are the two most sophisticated nation state adversaries.

35:25Jen Easterly:There's a saying that, you know, Russia is the hurricane and China is climate change. So China is really the pacing adversary. I think the thing that's pretty interesting to me, and this was probably the most concerning experience I had when I was the director of CISA, was when we discovered that hackers from the Chinese People's Liberation Army had burrowed deep inside our most sensitive critical infrastructures. So I'm talking about water systems, power grid, transportation, communication. And this is the thing, Simon. it wasn't to steal our data. It wasn't to spy on us. This was not about intellectual property or economic espionage.

36:08Jen Easterly:This was very specifically to be able to launch disruptive attacks in the event of a crisis in the Taiwan Straits. So this is a world where a war in Asia would be accompanied by mass disruption, everything, everywhere, all at once. So water unavailable, power down, rail lines derailed, communication severed, all to incite societal chaos and panic, and to deter our ability to marshal military might and citizen will. So this was the massive challenge that I worked on for the past two years of my time when I was at CISA, to be able to work with the private sector. Because again, the private sector owns and operates this critical infrastructure to help them identify, hunt for, and eradicate these hackers from the PLA.

37:01Jen Easterly:And frankly, we had some good success. But as I testified to Congress, and I've said publicly many times, what we found we thought was just the tip of the iceberg. And that's why at the end of the day, you have to look at what you are doing to deal with disruption. You have to architect your systems, train your people, and recognize that it's all about resilience. So there is, of course, a question here about complacency. The question that came up, are we prepared for a Lehman-style moment, not through credit contagion, but digital infrastructure failure? Well, that's the thing, right? I mean, at the end of the day, you know, I just mentioned water, power, transportation, communication.

37:45Jen Easterly:the finance sector is reliant on all of those other things to power it right you need power you know as as good as the finance sector is and i think finance was the first sector critical infrastructure sector to really take cyber security seriously and this was off the back of if you'll remember in the 2012 time frame there were these what we call distributed denial of service attacks where essentially web pages became unavailable because of their being flooded with data. This was all the Iranian government back then who did that. But it really caused a bit of a wake up call that, wow, we are actually vulnerable to these cyber attacks.

38:26Jen Easterly:So finance started basically investing a lot of resources into shoring up their security and resilience. And that's really why I ended up at Morgan Stanley in 2017. But, you know, finance is dependent upon power. It's dependent upon communications. It's dependent upon, you know, water, ultimately, if you're, you know, in terms of your employee base. And so I think you can think about the type of disruption that I just mentioned, you know, explicitly perpetrated by a nation state adversary, having a real impact across our country and across our world, frankly, because these attacks are not isolated to the US.

39:09Jen Easterly:And so is that something that will ultimately take down specifically the financial services sector? Maybe not, but it's something that will have a significant impact on the lives and livelihoods of the American people. Take, for example, in 2021, there was a ransomware attack against Colonial Pipeline, one of the biggest pipelines in the US. And it shut down for about four days on the East Coast. And it was a massive, huge impact on people, couldn't get to work, couldn't take their kids to school because they didn't have gas, couldn't get to the hospital. And that was a microcosm of the type of thing that we know that China was specifically planning as part of this whole campaign against our critical infrastructure.

39:57Jen Easterly:So that is something that I think we need to take very seriously. But the other thing is really the impact on the information environment and the lack of confidence. Because at the end of the day, as you know, the financial services sector and the economy all runs on confidence. You know, confidence in our data, its integrity, its accuracy, its completeness. completeness. And if you can use the information environment, which can be increasingly clouded, giving some of the things with AI, you know, the line between what is real and what is fake is increasingly blurred. I think attacks against the information environment that lead to a lack of confidence, that can also have a significant impact on how the financial services sector operates.

40:49Jen Easterly:So we need to be very mindful of that as well. And let's take an example. I think it It was back in November. Sla von der Leyen was flying on a European journey. She was crossing near Bulgarian border. Systems are jammed. The pilots have to go to resort to maps and old-style navigation. When something which was, you know, suggested, I don't suppose there's any big surprises operated by, you know, by Russian work, what are the, it's not so much the lessons as what are the practical actions that then follow to recognize the vulnerabilities? because, of course, we've got the CEO of Delta Airlines coming on, Ed Bastian, in a couple of months' time.

41:28We'll be talking about airline vulnerabilities. I mean, what I'm interested in is how those acts are taken and how learnings can be translated into better defence.

41:41Jen Easterly:I mean, that's exactly the right question, right? Because at the end of the day, that's what we were trying to do when I was at SZA. And that's why those partnerships are so incredibly important Because when something like that happens, first of all, you want to understand as much as you can about that incident from a technical perspective, an operational perspective, a legal perspective, ultimately a policy perspective, and then share that information widely, understand the threat, and then understand very specifically what you need to be doing to mitigate that specific threat, but also threats like that, adjacent threats.

42:18Jen Easterly:And that's where this whole idea of imagination comes in. You know, we have seen so many attacks over the, really the last four decades since we saw the first cyber attack, the famously the Morris worm in 1988. And we need to make sure that we are thinking very broadly about what are the types of attacks that we will see in the future, particularly knowing that capabilities like AI can turbo charge some of these attacks. I mentioned earlier, these phishing emails, right? Somebody sends an email that gets you to try and click on it, then you lose all the money in your bank account. You'll remember even a couple years ago, it was very easy to spot those phishing emails, right?

43:02Jen Easterly:And now because of the massive amount of data that's out there, much of the data we've put on social media, threat actors are using that to train systems to create hyper-personalized, hyper-tailored phishing emails that would be very hard to detect and people will click on it. Again, there'll be a lot of financial issues around people losing money or being fooled into giving away money or making certain transfers. So it's really taking what we know from current threats, extrapolating in what we will see in the coming months and years, and then doing everything we can working with our partners to prepare for it.

43:40Jen Easterly:So every threat that is out there, we should think about how that could be 10x'd, and then how we will prepare for it and exercise against that. Some of those tabletop exercises that, you know, are the things that always get pushed and pushed and pushed because there's something else happening in the business. Those are actually really, really important to be able to get everybody in the business together to prepare for something and understand how you're going to ultimately respond and recover to very significant threats to your business. And would it be fair to say that boards are generally complacent?

44:15Jen Easterly:What I've seen over the past several years is boards are increasingly waking up to the fact that cyber risk can be an existential risk, whether it's reputational or whether it just costs you an enormous amount of money that can ultimately, you know, really significant and impact your business model. So increasingly, I think boards get that cyber risk is a business risk that needs to be managed as a matter of good governance. You see, I see a move in many public companies from cyber risk being managed as part of the audit committee to being managed as part of the technology risk or cybersecurity and risk committee.

44:55Jen Easterly:I think that's a very, very good trend. Because again, you know, everything is so connected these days. Everything is so digitized. Everything is so vulnerable. Supply chains are increasingly difficult to be able to secure, just given where we are in the world and the threat environment. And, you know, frankly, if boards are complacent about cyber risk, they are complacent at their peril. And they should be held accountable if there is an incident that actually impacts their business. Well, I mean, I was having a conversation not very long ago with a large financial institution, and I was just talking about, I thought that the way they presented themselves in sort of old-fashioned PowerPoint was, you know, was missing more than one trick.

45:40And that they should review sort of some of the other stuff that we, even our little organization has learned over the last few years. And the answer was yes, but you have to understand is that technology is viewed here as a cost center. And I think that therein lies in many institutions a historic way of operating, which is a problem.

45:58Jen Easterly:Well, so this is the thing. I mean, going back to Morgan Stanley, this was a huge lesson learned to me and one that I've sort of carried through. I was brought there to build something called our Cyber Fusion Center. And this was an ability to essentially understand, detect, and respond to cyber threats. And I think the reason they hired me is when I was at the White House, I just stood up something called the Hostage Recovery Fusion Center. And so fusion centers are very common in the world of counterterrorism because it's all about connecting the dots that were not connected during 9-11. So when I get to Morgan Stanley to stand up this thing, the business was like, how much is this going to cost me?

46:39Jen Easterly:Right? That was the attitude. But what we were able to do was to build something that you could then bring clients into and help clients very importantly understand, here's the threat environment and why you need to be concerned about it. Here are the analytics that we are building to detect those threats against the bank and against your assets. And here's how we're responding to mitigate risk. And so by bringing clients in, both current clients, but very importantly, prospective clients, we were able to actually turn what was a cost center into, frankly, a revenue driver. And that was incredibly important for the business and for the cybersecurity team.

47:25So you talked about spycraft and you've been involved in hostage negotiations, cyberterrorism. You're sitting across all those branches and spycraft as old as man. And so I'm quite intrigued about how the world of espionage is both responding to and taking advantage of the new tools at their disposal. Yeah.

47:47Jen Easterly:Well, it's interesting when you think about the world of espionage. And I was not on the human side, you know, the CIA side, I guess, MI6 side. I was on the NSA side, which is all about collecting foreign intelligence to help inform how policymakers make decisions or how militaries can actually project power and be successful in operations. You know, it's interesting when you think about spy craft and human operations in particular, I think, and, you know, you should talk to the MI6 folks about this or, you know, our friend Dave Petraeus, but increasingly difficult to do human operations in a world where it's very hard to be anonymous, right?

48:33Jen Easterly:You're, you know, in a world where you have biometrics, where you have a lot of surveillance, it is increasingly difficult to be a, you know, a spy, if you were. And that's why at the end of the day, the most important thing is to be able to work with our partners to leverage the power of technology to understand where the threats are and what we can do to drive down risk to global cyberspace, to critical infrastructure, global security, economic prosperity. and so the collection of intelligence is much more technological digital electronic these days than it is about human intelligence so i had two questions which which seem appropriate to ask now one was from general senate carter who was the chief of defense staff he said that uh how should government guidance change uh in terms of negotiating with ransomware criminals as there was for terrorists.

49:34Jen Easterly:Yeah. Well, that's a, it's a, it's another long story. I'll try to make it a short one, but you know, when I was a head of counterterrorism in the white house, this was in the second term of the Obama administration. So I was there from 2013 to 2016. And as you'll recall, that was the period of ISIS, right? ISIS took down Mosul and then we saw terrorist attacks around the world now in 2014 uh in august isis beheaded several american and british journalists and aid workers you'll remember uh jim foley stephen sotloff um david haynes alan henning peter kassig and then kayla mueller and that was you know probably one of the worst moments of my life, because I was actually part of a hostage rescue operation, the planning for it.

50:31Jen Easterly:That was incredibly daring and complex hostage rescue operation in the dead of night in Syria, that sadly failed to actually get the hostages that were being held. But off the back of the beheadings, the just horrific beheadings, President Obama asked my team and I to develop a new hostage policy, one that would allow us to be much more effective in bringing hostages home safely. And as part of that, the Department of Justice actually looked at the policy that was related to ransoms. And at the end of the day, ransoms were considered illegal. And the Justice Department didn't say that they're not illegal, but they basically said that they were not going to prosecute any family that paid a ransom to get their children back from terrorists, which as it was seen at the time was a much more humane policy.

51:35Jen Easterly:So it's interesting because that's the lens through which I see ransoms and ransoms, you know, as in human hostages. On the ransom side of the house in terms of ransomware specifically. I know there's some discussions in this country about outlawing payment for ransomware. I think the thing that we'd have to think about are things like hospitals that are a great target for ransomware criminals. If you prevent hospitals or other certain types of life-saving critical infrastructure from being able to pay a ransom that will have very significant impacts, frankly, on that entity that could lead to lives being lost.

52:22Jen Easterly:So I think it's not a cut and dry thing about whether you pay a ransom or don't pay a ransom. I think you have to really think about what the downside impacts will be. You know, obviously, anything that fuels the ransomware ecosystem, which as I said, is sort of a$10 trillion business model. Anything that fuels that is not a good thing because it allows them to just continue their work. But I don't think that means that we should just say you can no longer pay a ransom. So it's been one of the trickier issues, which is why I don't think, which is why I think the other levers of power are actually going to be more effective against ransomware criminals, whether it's, you know, indictments or using legal process.

53:09Jen Easterly:And there's been many successful international legal operations that have been able to go after some of these criminals. But look, at the end of the day, I think the only way to turn ransomware from a multi-trillion dollar business into a shocking anomaly is to ensure that the software that we rely upon every hour of every day is designed to be much more secure. You know, I talked about those hackers from the PLA, Simon. They were not using exotic cyber weapons as well-resourced, as sophisticated as Chinese hackers are. They were just taking advantage of common flaws and defects in the software that we rely upon every day.

53:52Jen Easterly:And so the problem in many ways is of our own making. We are relying upon flaws and defects that has been allowed to exist in our software for decades because of, you know, from an economic issue, it's a credence good, right? It's consumers don't really understand what they're looking for from software security, so they don't know what to ask for. So businesses are not incentivized or rewarded to provide it. They are incentivized to reward and they are incentivized to provide speed to market features, driving down cost and convenience. And that, frankly, is the original sin. It's what created the cybersecurity aftermarket.

54:33Jen Easterly:And you can't blame vendors because, again, it's economically rational for them not to be prioritizing security in a world that doesn't demand it. The other question that actually came from Rob Rooney was, how should democracies respond when adversaries use cyber operations to stay below the threshold of armed conflict? Well, so that's the question, right? I talked about hackers from the Chinese PLA pre-positioning cyber weapons in our critical infrastructure. Now, you could say because those cyber weapons have not been activated, that's ostensibly below the threshold because it's just holding our critical infrastructure at risk as opposed to necessarily launching attacks.

55:15Jen Easterly:But think about that as sort of bombs sitting inside our water systems, our power systems. Now, in my view, as somebody who commanded the Army's first cyber operations battalion and helped to stand up U.S. Cyber Command, which is specifically focused on allowing us and enabling us to project power in cyberspace, I actually think it's incredibly important that we are using our capabilities in an offensive way to hold our adversaries at risk. So, you know, one of the things I'd give credit to the current administration is I think they have been more forward leaning in terms of using very good cyber capabilities.

55:54Jen Easterly:Think about Cyber Command. We created it in 2009. It's now 2026. Huge amount of increase in capability and capacity in offensive cyber. From what I've been reading publicly, and I'm no longer in the know, but they've used offensive cyber capabilities and recent operations in Venezuela and in Iran in precision ways to be effective and successful. And I think that's actually important for that to be out there publicly because it sends a message to our adversaries that these are capabilities that we have. They are exquisite capabilities that we will use to hold your critical infrastructure at risk and to impose costs on you if you threaten our infrastructure, if you threaten our economy, and if you threaten our way of life.

56:41Right. So I'm going to move towards some closing questions. I noticed that you sat on the Morgan Stanley Foundation, which was a portfolio I used to run when I was at Morgan Stanley. So you are obviously, you allocate, you think about allocating capital. At a very high level, when you think about those decisions confronting, and that's largely our audience on a global basis, where would you prefer to place more of your bets than not?

57:13I mean, at the end of the day, I think, and we're seeing it, right?

57:19Jen Easterly:The technology is driving economic prosperity. You know, it's having a lot of perverse effects as well that I've talked about in terms of the connectivity and the lack of security, but it is driving a huge amount of what is powering our economy around the world. So the incredible investments that are happening specifically with AI, I think are a good place to invest in. But I think we have to be very mindful of how we are investing and who we are investing in. And I'm talking specifically about decisions made with respect to the frontier labs. So when you think about these technologies, I always love to go back to this great quote from biologist E.O.

58:12Jen Easterly:Wilson. You're probably familiar with him. He said, you know, the problem of humanity today is we have paleolithic emotions, medieval institutions, and godlike technology, right? So when you think about the fact that we have this incredibly powerful, incredibly fast-moving technology, we have to make sure that we are putting the right institutions in place to govern it and to secure it. So when we are investing in this technology, specifically in AI and all the things that will enable AI, so data centers, the infrastructure like that, the power for it, we also need to keep in mind that the companies that are working hard to ensure that they are putting their own guardrails in place to reduce risks, the risks of these technologies.

59:04Jen Easterly:I think that's where people should do their homework on understanding which companies are most serious about safety and security of these very powerful capabilities. So I would advise looking towards that. Well, I think we have a lot of due diligence in our business when people go and sit in front of managers and entities and cross-examine them. And it's been a while since I've been in that room, but I suspect the nature of those questions needs to change quite a lot because I think it's more analog than digital, quite frankly. Yeah, well, I mean, at the end of the day, nobody was asking about, you know, software.

59:40Jen Easterly:When software started eating the world, nobody was saying, how safe is your software, right? You know, Ralph Nader's 1965 book, Unsafe at Any Speed, really led to seatbelts and airbags. And what we need is the unsafe at any CPU speed or GPU speed equivalent, which is we are building this, you know, godlike technology that's going to do incredible things for us. But we need to make sure it's serving humanity and not destroying humanity. So the questions to be asked now are what are you doing to secure this technology and ensure that it is as safe as possible to be used by my business? very important from an enterprise level because you know you need to make sure that you're you're taking care of your clients uh but also you know our families and communities are using these technologies so we have to ask those questions at the beginning not at the lag not as a bolt-on i also love the fact that you've had three great quotations today you said to me that i probably know them which i absolutely didn't however they've been written down and will be used again And I love using quotations.

1:00:49So thank you for the help in my erudition or at least the impression that I know what I'm talking about. Proud to serve. Okay. So some concluding general questions. What is the summit or summits for you still to scale?

1:01:05Jen Easterly:You know, I have been very blessed throughout my life to do some amazing things and to serve with some incredible people. And, you know, I'll give you one more quote, because I love learning from people. And that is, you know, Jonas Salk, the inventor of the polio vaccine said, our greatest responsibility is to be good ancestors. So everything in my life is seen through the eyes of my son. and all of the things that I can do to make sure that he is set up for success. So the summits are all about being the example for him to be able to hit his summits as opposed to my own personal summits. We support GAIN, which is Girls Are Investors here in the UK, a really important charity, getting women into the investment business where they're underrepresented and it's a great charity.

1:02:04um advice we often ask this but advice for young women thinking about career choices

1:02:11Jen Easterly:yeah i mean go for it do not let anybody in your life tell you you can't do something right now i know that you you are very keen on your music so i have to ask you either your favorite band or and or your favorite piece of music oh man simon i music is my life like music is my you know and um uh there's a great tv show ted lasso which you probably know which is like football is life for me it's music is life so i can't even give you you know one genre and song but coming over here i was listening to iggy pop um english beat uh eddie vetter doing save it for later you know it's just music gets me music is life We did a great episode with Philip Morris of Cutting Edge Group that has just merged with Warner Brothers Music.

1:03:01And they talked about the insertion of music into films and what a great business is. It's a fascinating business and it's a fascinating conversation. Where's the place you most want to visit?

1:03:15Jen Easterly:I've never been on safari in Africa. If you'd asked me this last week, I would have said Iceland. But I got to go snorkeling in the Silfra, the transcontinental divide. So that was pretty awesome. So Safari. So I'm going to stop there. I mean, we we planned this a couple of months ago and I think I started doing my initial research and I became more and more engrossed in the things that you've done and achieved. An extraordinary journey that seems to me like it's only partially, partially completed. So we'll be watching the future movements. But as I sum up, my goodness me, as I sum up the statement you made that cyber crime, And if it was an economic entity, it would be the third largest economy in the world is something pause for thought.

1:03:59The preparedness or lack thereof at a board level and because boards have operated and they have all of the legacy baggage, the need to revisit that with urgency and alacrity seems perhaps supremely important. And it's impossible to prevent disruption. so accepting that it's all of the things you can do around it because we live in a world where these are all going away um and uh you know imagining that these things aren't going to affect us is you know irresponsible yeah jen what a pleasure to have you here today thank you

1:04:38Jen Easterly:thank you simon great to be with you