From 200 Rejections to Industry Game-Changer: How Knix Rewrote Women’s Marketing

0:28We were approaching nine figures in revenue. comes in. Her brand NYX has revolutionized the category and since launching in 2013, has sold over 50 million pairs of its leak-proof underwear. It's about one in three women that experience leaks. We're making products to be worn for 15 hours and really thoughtfully designed for real life. The team is dedicated to testing on real bodies in every single size, collecting feedback firsthand and doing whatever it takes to innovate. Before making a bra in 99 sizes, We are fitting that bra on 99 sizes. To fuel that innovation and scale, Joanna pitched investors while pregnant with twins to raise over$50 million in funding in 2021.

1:12Joanna, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. Excited to be here. So excited to chat with you. Before all this great stats and headlines, Nick started because you noticed something that was invisible to others. What was missing in the category for you? You know, we launched in 2013, so a little over 12 years ago. And I started the company because I had this wild idea at the time to create leak-proof underwear, also known as period underwear, a concept that didn't really exist at the time. But I was really shocked to discover just how many women experience leaks. So when they laugh, sneeze, cough, exercise during pregnancy, postpartum, it's about one in three women that experience leaks.

1:54and it can start really, really early, like as young as nine or 10. And then I also learned that about 80 % of people were experienced leaks during their periods. And so saw this opportunity to really create a different kind of underwear, first and foremost, and also create a different kind of brand. Because I think when you're creating a product that's really deeply rooted in taboos, you have to approach it in a different way than perhaps what you're seeing in the market at the time. Yeah. And like when you had this idea, you also were dedicated to do thorough research through your MBA. So what were some of the questions you wanted to answer?

2:33Yeah, it's so interesting. So I'd been working previously in the media and entertainment landscape and world. And so that was my passion. I started as a music publicist working at Universal Music. That was my lifelong ambition at that point in time to land that dream job. And then at around the age of 26, I kind of came up with this concept for what is now week-free funder or period underwear. And I ended up going back to do my MBA, honestly thinking that I was going to go work at a media company again. I was super fascinated at digital storytelling and all of those things. But when I was there, I had this blessing of time and space away from my job, being surrounded by a lot of ambitious people who were looking to change the world.

3:15And so I spent the whole year researching NICS and really, you know, trying to get under the hood and really understand what people were going through and how it was affecting them physically, of course, but also emotionally, mentally. And what I learned was like really, really interesting. And this was, you know, 2011, 2012. It was when people were still in chat forums and I was spending a lot of time doing research through those forums and talking to people and getting them to talk to me about these really intimate things. And I was honestly just like shocked to discover that when someone experiences these challenges and experiences leaks, like it, it affects them.

4:01It affects their self-confidence. They stop sometimes participating in sports. They can affect their employment. It can affect their relationships with their partners. And I really felt compelled that there was this like once in a lifetime opportunity to kind of research and go at something differently and create something that was missing in the market. And I think being at business school, there's this whole notion that the unsexiest problems get solved last. So it's like everyone wants to go after the shiny, sexy object, right? And, you know, to be honest, like leaks that happen in your underwear, that's not super sexy.

4:39That's a big problem. But it's a big problem. And the industry at the time was also predominantly being run by men. A lot of the products that were being designed, I felt like were being designed through the male lens and the male gaze. So I like to joke that products were being made to be worn for 15 minutes and then taken off of you by someone. And we're making products to be worn for 15 hours and really thoughtfully designed for real life. And so that's where like all of the research came in and, you know, really trying to imagine how do we make something that isn't currently being made and how do we make it so that people aren't intimidated or put off to make this change in habit.

5:17Yeah. I think that intensive initial research is so important for any founder who's starting in any industry. When you might feel like a little intimidated to go up against like giants in the category, what would you say to new founders who are trying to build up their own research and chase after an idea? So first of all, I think there's a couple of different schools of thoughts. So I am a really big fan of this idea that's called like Blue Ocean Strategy. And the school that I went to happened to be kind of known for this particular notion, which is the best places to play in is when you are creating something so unique that it doesn't really have direct competitors.

5:57So you're not having to compete on price or on kind of, you know, whatever other lever you have because you're actually creating this space that's like in this blue ocean. And so for NYX, I felt like that's what we were making. Like we were competing with underwear and we were competing with pads and tampons, but actually no one was really doing what we were doing. And so I think there's a certain beauty in being naive. Let's just say it that way. Yeah. Where you're kind of like, how bad could it be? Yeah. And you just sort of go for it. And I think that is like the most beautiful place to operate from because you're actually not coming at it from a place of fear or what's the competition doing.

6:35You're coming at it from a place of curiosity and optimism. And so first of all, I would say to founders, lean into the curiosity and optimism because you're going to need it at every step along the way, right? There's two ways of starting a company, especially when you're thinking about it and exploring an idea. One school of thought is you don't tell anyone what you're working on and you keep it a secret for fear that like someone else is going to take your concept. Have you met any of those founders? No. Everyone has been actually urging to be open. Great. Yeah. I agree. And I think that's so important.

7:09When I meet a founder and they're like, oh, my company's in beta and I can't tell you what it is. Stealth mode. Stealth mode. I'm like, good luck with that. I actually think if you're testing an idea or you're trying to think about what it could be, talk to as many people as possible. Get a lot of different data points, opinions, understand your customer, and really like put it out there and litmus test it before you go 100 % of the way in. And so that's how I approached it. And that's how I really would encourage others to think about it. One way that I really learned that is I remember when we launched, we launched in 2013.

7:43So of course, we did a crowdfunding campaign because that's just what I think everyone did at the time. And I'd been working on this concept at that point for probably almost two years. And we launched and we had this video and it was like very direct about what people we're going to use the product for. And we quickly heard from potential customers being like, well, I don't experience light bladder leaks, but I have really heavy periods or I have spotting or I sweat a lot. Can I use the product? Can I use the product? And I realized that we were being way too prescriptive. And so within the first 24 hours of launching that video and, you know, two years of work, we pulled it down, we shot another video, we changed the messaging and we quickly reacted to what the market was saying.

8:25And I think there's just something so beautiful in being open and receptive to what the customer is telling you that they want from your product and your brand. Feedback is such a cherished gift. And I think when you integrate it while you're innovate is so special. Yeah. Agreed. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, you have this idea, you're crowdfunding. There's also talking to suppliers that happens in the background. Of course. Trying to iterate. How is that process like? Oh my goodness. I need to find them. I don't know where they are, but it will be like one day I have to find them. The first samples that I got of our product are quite possibly the most hideous piece of clothing you've ever seen in your life.

9:06They were like giant 1800s bloomers with like, it was just terrible. It was terrible. And I think, I think, you know, it takes iterating to get something right. There's a beauty in kind of finding the path, I think. So we started making the products. We, I went on a trade mission to Korea to kind of meet with potential suppliers and manufacturers. And I didn't know how to sew, to be honest. I didn't know about apparel or physical products. I'd come from the entertainment world. I'd never actually sold something physical before. I'd sold like or marketed TV shows and movies and music and experiences, but never a product.

9:45And I remember going factory to factory and visiting with these potential manufacturing partners and meeting with one of them. And they didn't stitch any of the products. They used bonding. So they glued them. They glued all the products. And I didn't know how to sew. But I, at one point, used scissors and a glue stick as a child. And so I was like, I understand this. And we ended up picking that to be our partner. And if you look at the NYX design aesthetic now, 12 years later, almost all of our products are bonded. We were kind of first to market with these bonded bras that you see everywhere now.

10:20And it all started from that point of weakness, really, of like not understanding how things worked, which ended up leading us down this really incredible path. And it's been a cool journey in that regard. Yeah. And being seamless is important in so many different ways of like how your undergarments show up. Yes. I mean, I think we all, if you live in pursuit of the seamless underwear and bras, then definitely it's an asset to kind of the products we make. Yeah. I also think for new founders, talking to suppliers, production partners is often intimidating as well. Sure, of course. Yeah. I mean, this was like early stages.

10:59Now it's like a goldmine up there. There's like Instagram profiles that just share supplier names and like databases that you can subscribe to. And I mean, I literally had to contact a consulate in a different country and go on a trade mission to find partners. So it's like so much easier now to get in touch with people. And I think it is intimidating. But, you know, when I look at the partners that took a chance on me as an example, right, we've become like incredible partners to them over the long term as well. I still remember going to my first trade show, like Fabric Fair in Paris before I started the company when I was looking for fabrics.

11:40And it was extremely intimidating. like every booth you go into, they're like, what brand are you from? What retailers do you sell to? How much revenue do you have? And it's like, well, I'm from a brand you haven't heard of, because we haven't launched yet. We sell to nobody and my revenue is zero. Oh, and I'm trying to make this product that doesn't exist right now. And you look at me like I'm kind of out there. But I still remember I had my book and there was some partners and potential vendors that like told me to get out of the booth and were extremely rude to me. And there were one or two that actually made a lot of time.

12:12And one of them, I remember I circled their name. I still have this book. And I was like, someday when I'm big and we have the opportunity to pick who we want to work with, I'm going to go back to this fabric vendor and I'm going to work with them because they're the only person today that made me feel seen and like my business mattered. And so it is intimidating, but there are those like bright spots, you know? For sure. Yeah. Yeah. And it's hard for new founders to remember, like, they are a partner. They're also working with you and for you. And it's okay to advocate for yourself, for your design, for your ideas.

12:45Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, you have the right production partners, you fundraise. What is next? How do you convert those people who backed you into customers? Oh my gosh. I mean, that's when a business really starts, right? When you're, when you're live and you're trying to get customers. I mean, I think in the early days for us, it was honestly like all organic. So through word of mouth, through press coverage. And then we also did a lot in wholesale in the beginning days of building Nix. And I spent a lot of time on the road. A lot of really interesting interactions at custom security with my little bum mannequin in my bag.

13:22But it took a while. I'll be honest, like the first three years, I didn't make nearly as much progress as I had wanted to. and we were a team of two to three people for the first three years. And so I think people make this mistake that like they're going to launch and everything's just going to click and it's going to work and there's like a silver bullet, but there honestly isn't. I mean, on occasion that happens, but for most people that I've met, it takes a little bit longer than you think it's going to and you have to try a whole bunch of things until you figure out what it is that's going to work.

13:55Yeah. But even from the early days, trying to market NYX, you were very adamant of showing products on real bodies. Yes. There are, you know, no models or. Yeah. No, that's a great point. So from 2013, we were the first brand to showcase our products on every size that we make. So when you would come to our website, you would see what the product looked like on a size small, on a size XL, on a size XXL. And I want to say that that was something that was like overly thought out or contrived. But honestly, when we tried the product on people, I was like, wow, this product looks amazing on everyone.

14:32And I've been so many different sizes throughout my life and had a really hard time buying items online and, you know, imagining what it was going to look like on my body. So we're like, why don't we just show this to people? So they can picture what it might look like, you know, being like, oh, that woman's body looks like mine. and they're wearing a size large, so I'm gonna buy a size large. And that was the start for us. That was the start of using real people in our campaigns, using our customers in our campaigns, showcasing different bodies, celebrating different bodies. And I think, you know, there's like quite a few things that we've done at Nix that have created movements and have changed the momentum or changed the way that the things are happening.

15:11And for me, honestly, one of the things I'm the most proud of is that we really changed the way that women were marketed in advertising. It was a complete departure from what you would used to see in intimate apparel ads. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think like that ties back into the way that products are created. Yes. You test in hundreds of bodies. Yes. Before launching a product. Yes. So it's only right to showcase them while you're marketing them. And it ties in to everything beautifully. Even to this day, we fit on every single size that we make. So in the industry, it's standard to fit on a medium and maybe one other size.

15:47or a 34C and one other size. But you're right, we fit on every single size that we make and we wear a test on every single size. So if we're making a bra in 99 sizes, we are fitting that bra on 99 sizes. And it takes a little bit longer to kind of bring products to market, but it means that once we launch something, it becomes part of like our stats and kind of track record of launching something and have it continue to be a part of the line is really high. It's sort of like the opposite of fashion in that regard. Yeah, very thoughtful, intentional design. And there needs to be like also while you're figuring out the products and iterating, you're also figuring out the process, right?

16:26Testing on 100 bodies is no easy feat. So how have you perfected that testing process as well? It's evolved over the years. I think, honestly, it just takes a lot of time. And so our technical design team fits three days a week in the office. They go back to back from 9 a.m. until 5 p.m. on repeat every single week of the year. I make sure that I'm like one of those people. So I still fit and wear test every product that we make. And that's been an interesting evolution as we go. You know, I get older and my tastes change. So I joke like every week when I go for a fitting, they always make me try on one thing that I, it's just not for me.

17:05And then you're like, wait, I actually kind of like this. Yeah, yeah. It pushes you. It honestly does. It does. But I think we've just found our groove and it's a part of our company DNA and we wouldn't change it. I also love that you were a part of the recent summer campaign along with your fellow founders as well. I think that's so special to see as well. Sure. Yeah. We just did a great swim campaign where we featured a bunch of different female founders. I think most of whom are on Shopify, if I had to guess. And just really celebrating their businesses and what they're building. I think it's incredibly important to kind of bring others along with you and to lend your voice and platform to kind of not just elevate your own brand, but also lift others up.

17:46And they were badasses. It was so much fun. It is so cool to see. Yeah. Also, your journey of scaling the brand, fundraising. I think it's so interesting because you were also a part of Dragon's Den as a producer or. Yeah, I worked on the show. Exactly. As a PR person. In PR. So how has your like concept and philosophy on funding change over the years from like the first angel or family or friends to the most recent? Yeah. So I think, you know, another thing that no one really tells you is when you're building a company and you're thinking about how to finance it, it really becomes a game of you do just about everything.

18:26So you apply for grants, you do startup pitches, you raise money from institutional investors if you can, you talk to the banks, you get loans. Like it's not one singular thing, at least for me, it wasn't. It was really a mix of absolutely everything. And I think in the early days, I had quite a lot of trouble raising money, to be honest. It was a very male-dominated industry at the time. I was trying to raise money for a very women-centric brand that was addressing like menstruation and leaks. And I think a lot of folks just didn't get it. And so I was told what I think so many female entrepreneurs are told, that my idea was niche, that it would make a cute lifestyle business, that it wasn't venture backable.

19:07And the list goes on and on and on. And so I ended up taking a break from fundraising because I fortunately, if you're having some challenges raising money along the way, was forced to build a profitable business. So I didn't need the money. And then it just wasn't worth it. It just wasn't worth all of the rejection. I remember, you know, spending some time in San Francisco and I had a list and I got 200 no's. Oh my goodness. Like that amount of rejection, I don't care what anyone says. It doesn't matter how strong you are. It does end up affecting you mentally. And so to protect myself, I was sort of like, you know what?

19:46I'm not going to do this right now. I'm just going to go back, work on my business, built an amazing company, and really focus on building something that's here to last. And it was a really good decision for us. And it also meant that I was in the driver's seat for what happened with the business. because I think when I was starting out, there was just so much emphasis placed on how much money you'd raised as a founder. Yeah. And that almost felt like the most important thing. And there were a lot of companies taking up a ton of airspace because they'd raised so much money. But behind it, the metrics were not great and the numbers weren't great.

20:23And it's just been really interesting to watch that evolution versus I think I took a really untraditional path with Nix and we just focused on building a great business. And that was what mattered to me. I mean, resetting is also so important. And especially in this economic climate, businesses have to be profitable. Oh my gosh, it is a bad time to raise money. You know, I actually really feel for anyone who is out there looking at risk financing right now and who's having a hard go of it because from everything that I've heard, it's just people are pretty risk adverse at the moment. And so it's, you know, a lot of it comes down to timing.

21:04I guess, well, after having those 200 no's, taking a rest. Yeah. How did you regain the excitement or enthusiasm to get yourself back into the pitching process? Never with enthusiasm or excitement, to be honest. It was always, I felt like I was preparing for battle. Like I remember when I would go into a fundraise being like, I need to mentally be incredibly strong. I need to be up for what I'm about to face. And I was pretty protective of my, like the headspace that I was in. You know, I had a couple of tricks and tools that I would use. So I'm a big advocate for hypnotherapy and using, you know, there's some great apps out there.

21:43I use an app called the Grease App, which really kind of like gets your mindset focused and in a good place. I'm a big fan of pump up songs. So I have like a couple of pump up songs. What are some of those songs? They are not safe for work. Okay. All right. We'll get those after the recording. Okay. Those were just a couple of things that I would focus on. I honestly always dreaded raising money. And at every stage, it didn't matter how great of a business I had built. It was never a fairy tale. And so I think that when you're raising money, it's all about putting this face forward and acting like everything is going super well and building FOMO.

22:23Like there's a game. and I was lucky enough that Philip, the Casper CEO did a call with me and he was like, Joanna, you gotta learn the game. And the game is build FOMO, create group think. Everyone always only wants to do the same deals and like run a tight process and do it that way. So once I learned the game, things started to change for me. But I always, always dreaded it. And it was never a fairy tale. And I remember, like, I still remember moments with my husband. And, you know, sometimes I thought it was going to be a fairy tale. Like when I did that round and I was pregnant with twins, I really thought that was going to be a different experience for me than it was.

23:05Because I built this incredible company. We had an amazing team. We were profitable. We were growing. You know, we checked every single box. At that point, we were approaching nine figures in revenue. So it's not like it was a small business either. And I just thought it was going to be different. and I remember vividly like crying on my bedroom floor to my husband being like, I don't know why I was so stupid that I like believed in the fairy tale because it wasn't. Most fundraising experiences I had were like candidly a nightmare. And so with that one, the nightmare was it didn't matter what I had built.

23:41People still questioned my credibility because I was pregnant and having twins and how could I raise a business and be a parent, be a mom. And I just found it so incredible. Like every step I got this feedback that was so demoralizing. And even at the final step, it still continued. I just think there's such a weird power dynamic that goes on when you're looking for money. And I think that we often forget as founders that actually we're in the seed. We have the power. We get to choose who we let to invest in our companies. We're the ones working our asses off and going in every day and building something that doesn't exist.

24:18You need money, but you need a person who is passionate enough to put it all on the line. So I'm getting emotional. But it's like, we just forget that we get a say. And so in that experience, when I was raising money, I was like, you know what? Anyone who says anything derogatory about my ability to do these two things, to be a mom, which was extremely important to me and to build this company, they don't get anywhere near me. Yeah. And they don't deserve it. Yeah. And so, you know, it was a really interesting process. And when we sold and everything, you know, turned out to be the fairy tale, it was so interesting the number of emails and messages I got from people who said no to me along the way.

25:01Because they did miss out. Oh, my gosh. They were like, we've messed this up. You know, like we underestimated you. We like, and it was, it's validating. But I was like, my response was like, don't do that again. You know? Yeah. We get so obsessed with pattern matching that we fail to see when there's a new pattern being created. Yeah. Yeah. And to your point, like, we hear the headlines. We see the news clippings. We think it is a fairy tale. But there is so much that you've gone through behind the scenes. And similar to, you know, the producers, the fabric producers you chatted with, I do believe in a self-selecting process.

25:40They don't deserve the growth that you have now. And they self-select it out. So it's so true. I think one of the most beautiful things about being an entrepreneur and creating your own business is that you get to choose the people that you work with. And I've always just had this belief, which was like, I don't want to work with that. And I want to work with people who share the same values as me. And I feel so fortunate that I'm in a position where I get to dictate that, you know, talk to us about the exit 80 % at 320 million. And what are you excited about for this next chapter of scaling? Yeah, so it's such a, you know, when I ended up talking with Essity, who is the company that acquired us, it really wasn't my intention to sell.