How Thirdlove Disrupted the Fashion Industry by Listening to Its Customers

0:00The ecosystem of San Francisco, there's a lot of people who want to build. They want to create something from scratch. At Third Love, you have real ownership and you can see the impact of what you're creating.

0:21Hello and welcome to Shopify On Location. I'm Shuang Esr-Shan coming to you from our space in downtown San Francisco. It seems like founders in the Bay Area are constantly disrupting and innovating in all aspects of life. But can you bring innovation and creativity to any industry, even to undergarments? Heidi Zak and Raelle Cohen definitely think so. They launched Thirlove in 2013. It's an inclusive lingerie brand, marrying comfort and style. Third Love makes it easy to find your ideal fit by offering twice as many sizing options as traditional brands. The brand has sold over 10 million bras and opened 10 retail stores.

1:07Heidi is here to share how Third Love helped millions of women find their fit. Heidi, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here. I'm excited to be here. So I gotta ask, why did you think that underwear needed innovation? Yeah, so we have to go back a decade in time now. And at the time, I was working at Google, and I did what I had done my entire life since I was a teenager, which was I needed a bra, and I went to a Victoria's Secret store. I actually drove to the mall, went into the store, and had a subpar experience of the velour and the smell of perfume and the 16-year-old with the measuring tape around her neck.

1:54And I was like, bought some bras that didn't really fit. And I got home and I'm like, why am I still shopping here? This brand doesn't resonate with me. I don't want to have to go to the mall to buy a bra. And like, there's got to be something better. And I started doing a lot of research online, looking for an online bra brand that spoke to me and there was none. And so that was really the genesis of the idea was just my own personal experience or lack of a great experience, I should say. And that's how the idea came about. I think for a lot of women, we know the pain of straps falling a little bit, bands we have to adjust up and down our back, but we just kind of live with that discomfort throughout the day.

2:34But you decided to dedicate your life in creating ideal fit for different women. Why did you want to take this sharp turn in your career? Yeah, when you say dedicate my life, I'm like, wow. I mean, yes, maybe I am dedicating my life to this, but I have dedicated it at 10 years at least. But so, you know, for me, it's like bras, women shouldn't have to think about their bras. You know, I really believe, and this is inherently our goal, that if you have a great fitting bra on, you should never think about it. You shouldn't be doing any of those things. You shouldn't adjust your strap. You shouldn't feel the wire poking in.

3:09You shouldn't feel uncomfortable. You actually shouldn't have to think about your bra at all. and truly shouldn't women deserve that at least? I think women have been so let down by bras over the years that even, you know, demanding something like that was out of the realm of possibility for many women, especially if you had a larger cup size or a more unique size. One of the things I came to figure out over time after starting the company was I was actually a half cup. So Third Love is the only brand in the world that offers these half cups. So think, you know, shoes have half cups, you know, now bras do.

3:48So for me, there was a real reason why I had never had a bra that really fits because I'm in between traditional sizes. So I unpacked a lot on the journey of learning a lot about bras because I certainly didn't know anything about them other than wearing them when I started the company. I too am a half size and I do have to agree like being in a classic t-shirt bra by third love I am literally not thinking about any of that throughout my day, which is a comfort in its own way And then before your career in google you actually worked at air postal And I think third love is a marriage of those two fashion and tech So tell us about how past experience also prepped you for starting third love Yeah, so you're right.

4:34My prior job to Google was at Aeropostale in New York, and I ran new business there. So I sort of had this interesting job where I was tasked with looking at new business opportunities. And I helped launch international stores for them. I helped launch a tween brand for them. And I learned a lot about traditional retail, brick and mortar retail. and because their e-commerce business at the time was quite small even back then. And I just, while I was there, it was an amazing company. I saw so many things that I was questioning why they were done a certain way. So you can kind of table that for a second.

5:13And then when I got, I ended up moving from New York out to San Francisco in 2010. And I was interviewing at retail companies out here, you know, like Levi's and Gap. And then there was this opportunity to take a job at Google working with retail companies kind of from the Google perspective. And I thought to myself, you know, having a tech job and really understanding the tech industry will just be a really great way to get additional learnings than I had had up until that point. So, yeah, certainly Google was eye-opening to me. And I learned a ton while I was there. And really, truly, Third Love is a blend of that.

5:51You know, I really miss consumer. I miss physical products. Absolutely, that's my passion. So obviously, that was important. But Google definitely really highlighted for me the importance of testing and learning, of data driving decision making, and of moving really fast, actually. I think Google does a really good job, even today, with however many people they have, that they really want to keep pace. And that's super important. If you want to be a disruptor, if you want to be an innovator, and you want to maintain that, you constantly, I say this to my team all the time, like, we're only as good as what happened last week.

6:27So like, what's next, right? Because the world is changing. The landscape changes at a pace today, unlike anything we've all ever seen. And so as a company, you have to stay on that. And I think Google really highlighted for me the importance of pace of change as well. And speaking to that data collecting aspect, understanding user experience from Google, you actually enlisted the help of strangers with Craigslist, asking them to try out your bras. Tell us about that. Yeah, it's hard to believe. But in the early days of Third Love, we had an app at the time that helped a woman understand her best size.

7:05And we were also testing our physical products, making sure the sizing worked like those half cups and different styles. And so We just needed as many women as we could get. And we didn't have, you know, money to spend. We were a scrappy early stage startup. And so we put an ad in at Craigslist just like wanting to get product feedback. And then we offered like a gift certificate or like product, right, to people. And we got hundreds of women to come. I mean, man, I'm impressed. I mean, it was a two, three story walk up and we got a lot of women to come. And friends then who had come recommended their friends to come.

7:41So we really, that was our initial beta group was just women from San Francisco.

7:51And I think this is so true to the city. There are inhabitants here that are open to new ideas. They love to support new startups. And it is the city that you can actually enlist strangers to try bras in a two-story walk-up. I think that's true. It is so true because everyone's used to people saying, I have this idea. I'm starting this thing. and everyone is incredibly helpful here. It is so, so true that people are really, really want you to succeed. And collecting that early day feedback, did you have a system rubric to make sure that all of the information you captured actually translates to production notes for a manufacturer?

8:29Yeah, I mean, to some extent, a lot of it was both qualitative and quantitative. So you're kind of taking the data set and looking at that by size and then figuring out which measurements, which fit issues would put a woman into a certain size bucket or style bucket. And then you're coupling that with taking that data and thinking about the specs on each individual product. So we have over today 65 bra sizes. And so each size, we don't just grade it up and down on a flat scale. We actually think about the unique size of each bra and really think about the measurements of a woman, and making sure each bra down to the size level is very unique.

9:10So you have great customer insight. You have those production notes. How did you move to the manufacturing stage, finding the right partners to make these bras? So it was really hard. We couldn't get anyone to work with us. We didn't have a website at the time we hadn't launched because we didn't have product, right? So it was sort of chicken and egg. We had prototypes. We had some samples, but we needed to get manufacturing going. We went to China. I spent about a month there begging, basically begging manufacturers to work with us. And eventually we found one that said yes. And we got off the ground.

9:48I think today people are more open to disruptors in apparel because DTC is a real thing. I mean, if you think about 2013, direct to consumer wasn't even a term. DTC didn't even exist. So we're pitching manufacturers who worked with Victoria's Secret and Calvin Klein. And they're like, you're going to do what? And these half cups and like, who are you? And, you know, they just didn't believe in the vision, most of them. But we were lucky that one did and we got off the ground. Another aspect of being a San Francisco-based company is the access to technology that's available, new ideas, and also the talent pool.

10:27So what other ways has the city shaped Third Love? Yeah, I mean, I think having people on our team who have come from different backgrounds has been super helpful. So, you know, our team today is really a blend of both retail and tech more similar to my background. I think that's been really, really important. And then also just the relationships that you can build that can turn into partnerships. and certainly I've made a lot of friends with other founders, both in Broadly and D2C and beyond. And that network has really served me well, both from just a support standpoint of being able to call someone, but also from the fact that we may work with some of those other companies to work together to promote our brands or do different things together.

11:12So I think the ecosystem of founders, of course, is really strong here in companies. I think obviously ThirdLove is a reputable brand now, but in the early days when you're trying to compete for talent, it is a hard place to be because a lot of people are here for lucrative tech jobs. So how did you approach hiring in the early days? Actually, it's different now because people know who we are and our brand stands for something. But, you know, there's a lot of, again, the ecosystem of San Francisco, there's a lot of people who want to build. They want to create something from scratch. And so I've always said, if you want to make the most money, you're not going to come work at ThirdLove.

11:51You're going to go to Google or Meta or wherever you're going to go. But at ThirdLove, you have real ownership and you can control more. You can see the impact of what you're creating much more quickly than working at a big company. And so you're really looking for those kind of people. And of course, everyone at ThirdLove has equity in the company. so they are part owners of Third Love and of the future success of the company. And so really it's through the experience. That's what people want. They wanna be challenged. They wanna make an impact. And if that's right, then they're the right people for us.

12:24I'm chatting with Heidi Zak, the CEO and co-founder of Third Love. I hope you're enjoying our conversation. And while you're listening, if you haven't already, please subscribe or follow Shopify Masters wherever you get your podcasts. And let us know what you think of this episode with a review. Thanks. So it's crazy to think that initially when you were reaching out to investors, people didn't think that women would actually buy bras and underwear online, something that is really crazy to think about now. What advice do you have going through that pitching process and staying true to what you believe in.

13:05Yeah, I think if you're pitching, it doesn't matter what kind of pitching you're doing. If you're on the cutting edge, a lot of people won't believe in your idea. They won't believe that you will be able to accomplish what you're setting out to do. And that's totally normal. So I think you really have to take it from that frame of reference of knowing that's normal. But what's important is really understanding where the communities are and what you're actually pitching. So it was actually eye-opening to me that many investors didn't believe that women would purchase bras online. Now, I can understand why, right?

13:39It's a really hard-to-fit product. Maybe women don't trust the idea that they can try it on in home. They'd prefer to buy it in store. But I deeply down, of course, didn't believe that. But you really have to paint a picture for them to really understand how you're going to solve the issues that are presenting themselves. So that's why our fitting technology was hugely important, both to our business and to pitching our business, because we were not just an e-commerce company, right? We were not just selling bras online. We were helping women find the right size for themselves online and doing that really with confidence.

14:16And so the fitting room was a huge part of, and still is today of our differentiation, but also it gave some investors, the ones who did invest, a reason to believe that we were going to disrupt an industry that seemingly was going to be hard to do so online. Just digging deeper to your virtual fitting experience, it is very smooth, seamless, and you're essentially educating customers, but it doesn't feel that way. And then when you come to the end of it, at least a lot of my friends at Shopify, they were saying, I really didn't believe I was that cup size and I had to lower my band and up my cup size and things like that until they got the product in their hands.

15:00So how did you enhance that online experience and then make them trust in the sizing and all of the things that is being told online? That's a really great question because even today, 65 to 70 % of women who do our fitting room online, come to find out we're recommending a size that is different than the size she's wearing, that the size she thinks she is. I mean, that's a big leap of faith to say, buy this completely different size. Trust us, right?

15:38So in the early days of Third Love, we did that through a program called Try Before You Buy, which we were one of the first to launch a program where we said, just we'll send you the bra for free. You pay shipping, wear it, wash it, make sure it really fits you really well. And then if you decide to keep it, you pay for it. Otherwise we pay for return shipping. That marketing program in the early days of Third Love before we had brand recognition was huge for us because it really got customers over the hurdle of being worried about, you know, trying a new brand, a new size. But it is hard. I mean, part of what you said is really, really true, which is I believe we have to educate our customers.

16:15So that whole journey in the fitting room is really about along the way, while we're asking questions, we're giving feedback that is more conversational because a lot of women just think, oh, it's just me or I'm unique. And it's like, no, you're not. It's actually a lot of women are similar to you. And so it's been a really important part of our journey as a company is really being a fit expert or we try to act like her best friend who knows everything about bras. That's really what we try to do. Yeah. And customers are talking back and they're giving reviews. Third Love literally has over 100 ,000 five-star reviews, which is astounding.

16:53How do you make that feedback loop, review giving process really easy for the customer? Yeah. I mean, we use Yoppo and so it's very easy to send kind of that follow-up review suggestion. And we just really encouraged her to give us the honest feedback. And we've even found things that work great, right? When we launch new products, we've also found occasionally we launch a product or certain sizes that aren't working. And so that feedback loop is so, so important. And it happens not in real time, but pretty close to it, right? And so we're able to use that to make any adjustments we need to. But it's also great for marketing, right?

17:30People really, really want to be able to search and filter by like-sized or like-minded people versus hearing us talk about the product. It's really amazing to have our customers talk about the product and their experience. I think someone listening might wonder, why isn't traditional brands just copying third-level sizing? Do you ever feel intimidated by that possibility? Yeah, I've been surprised that there hasn't been more change. But that being said, I think many, many, many bra brands have added a lot more sizes over the past five years for sure to have a much more inclusive size range. So I think that change is happening, maybe not at the pace that I would have expected, but certainly more people are.

18:18But look, having half cups, it's a lot of inventory, right? We have more SKUs. So it's not without its own business implications to do that. Yeah, I was going to say it does complicate things in terms of forecasting, investing in different inventory. How are you using data to help with that area of business? Yeah, so one thing that's pretty interesting is we can use the fitting room data to help impact how we think about inventory too. Because generally what you will see is that if there's going to be size shifts in the customer base for whatever reason, you can kind of see that through the fitting room in advance of a purchase cycle, which might occur a little bit later.

18:57So that's definitely one way. But we're really fortunate because our business is very basics driven. So most women are buying neutral products. So for us, we're not as much of a fashion company as we are a basics company. So it's a little bit easier to manage inventory. And imagine the customer data also tells you which other location and city to enter into with a retail space. Yeah, absolutely. So when we were opening our first stores, we were looking at testing different kinds of markets because there's two schools of thought on physical retail, brick and mortar, right? Oftentimes people are like, well, you want to go where your fan base is, where your customer base is, where you're sort of over-indexed.

19:38And then some people actually say the opposite, which is like you should go where you're under-penetrated, right, because a retail store could help bring that market up to average, for example. So we did both. For example, like Washington, D.C. is a great market for us. We opened in Tyson's Corner. So that is a market where we're over-indexed. And then we've put other stores in places that were under-indexed. So it's been a learning journey for us, for sure. I believe you're entering Canada or experimenting with Canada with Hudson Bay. How do you select those partners to test new markets? Yeah, so really making sure their core customer base aligns with ours.

20:14So Hudson Bay was a great partner. We opened a 3PL in Vancouver last year. And so because we don't have our own physical stores up there and we won't anytime soon, it was really important to us to have another partner that we could work with who is highly respected in the country. Obviously, Hudson Bay is an incredible partner for us. And so, yeah, it's exciting. It's still early days for us. But absolutely, I think my mind has opened up more to different types of distribution and partnerships than in the past. I think it's really important to meet a customer where they are and not just say, you know, we're only going to be online.

20:53Now, that being said, that's what I said for many, many years. But I've changed my tune a little bit over the past couple of years because I do think having a multi-channel approach is important. And a lot of founders are thinking about that. And it's hard to strike the perfect balance. You want to be consistent through the different channels and retail partners, but you also want to cater to that local market and speak to them in the way that is fun and enjoyable. How are you tackling this balance between cohesion but also tailoring to local markets? So in terms of more localized marketing by geography, we haven't done it.

21:31We actually are starting to test into that in Canada in general. The one place we have done it with success is around retail stores, to your point. So especially when we're doing store openings, Oftentimes we'll do direct mail. So we'll do some like cute language around a city or something that maybe speaks to a more local market just to create more engagement and lightheartedness for sure. But on digital, we really have not done that as much. And I think COVID changed underwear a lot. There's, you know, a desire to have no wires, more active wear. Talk to us about testing out different product lines.

22:08Yeah, so we built our business really kind of with the underwire bra as the core. Definitely during COVID, we saw a surge in demand for wireless, and it's maintained itself. And so today we do have a really strong wireless business as well. We launched sports bras about a year ago, and that's been really amazing because, again, when we looked at that sports bra market, there's a lot of people and companies selling sports bras, but they're not really coming at it from the fit perspective that we do. So our sports bras have a cup and a band associated with them. It's just like regular bra sizing.

22:47And they have a lot of adjustability and they have a back closure. Because when you're working out, and I work out a ton myself, is there anything worse than struggling to get off like a super sweaty sports bra over your head? It's like, you know, it's a workout in itself. And so really thinking about how do we solve some of those issues that women may have with a sports bra and come at it from the perspective of bra experts and bring a different lens to the product development. So it's been super exciting. That bra has done incredibly well. And then we have more new styles coming in the next year, things that we still don't offer today that women need in their top drawer.

23:22And that's really our goal is to have every kind of style and fabric that a woman's looking for for any moment of her day. So you definitely think there's much more to innovate on in the undergarment industry. Yeah, and I think, you know, technology is changing. I think sustainability is really, really important. You know, I think exciting news, we're launching some organic cotton collections in a couple months, both bra and underwear. And so I think there's a lot more innovation, even in fabric, but also in every component within a bra. So I think still a lot more to come there. And I also love Third Love's commitment to giving back.

24:03Not only have you donated over$15 million worth of product, but I think this will definitely benefit our listeners is the TL Effect program where there's mentorship available. So tell us about that. Yeah. So we just closed our applications for our fifth cohort. So we launched this program in 2020. So we've had four winners, a fifth about to be announced. And what we do is we pick an early stage female founder of color who hasn't raised institutional money, so is most likely a solo entrepreneur or maybe has a few contractors working on a business in the broader consumer space. And we help amplify their business.

24:45You know, we're currently selling some of our winners' products in our stores. We'll amplify on Instagram. We give a$20 ,000 grant. And then mentorship. So we give them mentorship in any topic that they need help with from our company. And the Third Love team loves being part of that and helping mentor the winners. And then I'll also work with them on some of the bigger strategic things or maybe fundraising or other things that they're struggling with. And so it's just been a really phenomenal program. All of the winners and their companies have done so great over the past couple of years in starting to scale.