How This Artist Made Millions Making Dinnerware for Restaurants

0:00Did you know that Shopify Masters is now on YouTube? Hey, what's up? It's Benjamin Gottlieb checking in with you to tell you that you can watch this episode with Jono and Nick Pandolfi on YouTube. Just search for Shopify Masters and click on the link. And thank you so much for your support. Hi, I'm Shuang Esther Shan. You're tuning in to Shopify On Location, a series we're recording in New York. One of my favorite things in the world is ceramics. When I'm in a restaurant, I'm flipping over the plate to see who made them. And one of these makers is Jono Pandolfi. He's actually a premier ceramicist to Michelin star restaurants.

0:37As an artist, he's able to build a profitable seven figure business. And we're going to figure out how. We have Nick, his brother, who looks after operations and Jono himself. And we're going to talk all about running a business as an artist and how they're expanding into direct to consumer. Jono, Nick, welcome to the show. Thanks for having us. Yeah, thanks. So excited to chat. I am one of those people who flipped over a plate and discovered you two. Jono, I would love to start with you. Talk to us about your early experience with pottery and what made you think that as an artist, you can also start a business?

1:13Great question. My initial love for ceramics and pottery kind of grew when I was in high school. I was exposed to it and I had a teacher who taught us and took the time to bring us to visit some local potteries when I was in high school. And that experience was pretty impactful, just kind of seeing the medium in use in a way that I hadn't been exposed to in the classroom and seeing kind of production on a little bit of a bigger scale was really interesting to me. So that kind of sparked my initial sort of love for the medium. And I loved the process of ceramics, of making something and firing it and then the permanence of the object.

1:58So that was part of it. But initially it was high school, but it's a medium and it's a craft that I studied in college as well. And I spent a few years teaching after college. And I did that all before I started my brand. So I had kind of took a roundabout path to becoming sort of a product designer and building a manufacturing company. but um my my love and my my desire to work with clay is is kind of at the heart of it all and still is and then so much of ceramics and pottery is about working with these relationships with chefs and huge orders which comes with understanding operations and managing your resources and timelines.

2:45Nick, talk to us a little bit about that side of things. And if a new founder starting out, what are some things they should think about when they're handling a huge order and managing their finances? Sure. Well, it's always evolving. And I think every year that I've worked with Jono, which is almost seven years now, every year has been sort of a completely different process in terms of how we manage our operations. So, you know, in 2017, when we were six employees, it was sort of all hands on deck. We would work on one order at a time, be incredibly focused on getting that one big order out. And then when it comes out of the kiln, the whole team packs it up and we sort of figure out how to ship it and kind of figure it out as we go.

3:31I think now that we are, you know, 25 employees, it's a very different process. You know, we have a dedicated shipping team, we have a warehouse supervisor, we have someone who focuses on dealing with our freight brokers. So there was a big leap from 2017, when we were five people to now when we are 25. And I think just sort of taking it one step at a time and sort of being honest with yourself about what you know, and what you know how to do. And then what you don't know, you can always ask for help. And we've asked for a lot of help along the way. So one of the biggest orders in the early days came from the Nomad Hotel.

4:09Tell us about that relationship and how it came to be. That first order, I mean, and I say that was our first big order. But, you know, to be honest, there were orders before that that felt big. But we were going from doing a couple hundred pieces at a time to our first, which was our first big order. The one we're talking about was 6 ,000 pieces. And that early on in the evolution of the company, I only had a couple helpers. And those were part-time too. I don't think I had any full-time employees yet. So the only way that we were going to be able to do that order was to do it with some help outsourcing.

4:47So we worked with some American manufacturers to get some of our stuff made. While that was all unfolding, I was building our manufacturing capabilities back where we do it in New Jersey. So we did some of it and we outsourced some of it. But trying to get back to your question, the mentality was I knew that this order was an amazing chance to make our name or to establish my name in the field of dinnerware, of hospitality dinnerware. because I knew the Nomad opening was going to be a big deal. I knew it was going to be talked about. And the collection that we wanted to, that we did is and was a very unique looking and still is.

5:30And it's still kind of our signature look. I knew it would be amazing. And I knew it would sort of, in a sense, put us on the map. And it definitely did. So my mentality was do whatever it takes to make this happen. Literally whatever it takes. Get up at three in the morning, drive out to Ohio to work on the situation out there, get up, you know, tracking kilns in the middle of the night. So it was fun, you know, it wasn't totally sustainable, but I learned a ton. And we achieved the goal of delivering the dinnerware to the hotel. And we ended up doing their sister restaurant. And it was everything I wanted it to be because it truly did lead to so many new chefs reaching out and it was the beginning of what we're still working on now.

6:18It's such a crazy amount of dedication to hear. And also to your point, this is the starting point where other chefs are knowing your work. And I would love to talk about how chefs are acting as this top of funnel marketing channel almost, and which also led to the brand starting into direct to consumer. Talk to us about that journey. Sure. I mean, your experience in finding the brand is a great example of how so many people find us. So you were at dinner in San Francisco and flipped over your plate, probably Googled us, landed on our website, and saw that we sell direct to consumer. And that is how the majority of our customers find us.

7:04And so over the years, as the business has grown, the two channels, the direct-to-consumer and the hospitality channel have really reinforced each other. So the hospitality channel is what gets our name out there and what lets so many people find us. And then we sell direct-to-consumer at a higher margin. And so we generate more profit on the direct-to-consumer side, which allows us to sort of maintain lower prices on the hospitality side. And that just sort of keeps that flywheel going. But it's worked out really well and has been the growth engine for the company. And then also at times when restaurants aren't doing well, such as 2020 when COVID happened and a lot of our restaurant orders fell off, the direct-to-consumer filled that gap.

7:51So when one side of the business is really strong, maybe the other one isn't and vice versa. And it's sort of allowed us to grow really sustainably over the past couple of years. For me, the restaurant was getting dark. So actually the wait staff was advocating for you guys and saying you got to check out Jono's work. And my thought was for our next show in New York, you guys have to be on the show. So very happy that it's happening right now. But yeah, Jono, talk to us about that relationship building, right? Because even the wait staff are advocates for the brand. And every person that you actually work with are speaking such highly about your work.

8:30So how do you actually, you know, establish a relationship and maintain it and nurture it over the years? Great question. I think I realized early on starting a dinnerware company that was focused on hospitality. I knew I was going to have to create collections that stuck around. And prior to my dinnerware kind of taking off, I actually had a jewelry line for a few years, which was really cool. And it was my first sort of real world experience designing products. And it's super seasonal and super kind of everything's new all the time. And as I transitioned and started catering to restaurants and started building my manufacturing company, which is really what we are and what sets us apart, I realized that it was going to be super important to create collections that our chefs were going to be able to purchase from us a year down the road, two years down the road, five.

9:28I was committing to things that felt scary to me, but I knew it was what the situation required. So that was a part of it, was saying to my early customers, look, this is what I'm doing. This is what I'm going to keep doing. We're going to still offer you this plate several years in, et cetera, et cetera. So it was partly that. And I think that allowed us to kind of get a toehold and build an early customer base. But then it really is the experience of chefs looking at what their peers are doing and who's opening up and what plates are they using and what's the look and feel of the restaurant?

10:13What's the menu like? Our name just started to spread organically through the hospitality community because we were offering a unique product. and not only just a unique product, but actually at a price point that chefs could afford. I mean, we're not, we're not, I won't say we're an inexpensive product, but initially to build the business and to get it rolling, I, I asked some of my early customers, you know, they'd say, all right, what's the price on this dinner plate? And I'd say, well, I don't know, what can you afford to pay? And then I tried to figure out how to make it and make the, you know, so that was an early thing I did, and I didn't do that.

10:49I did that once, you know, to sort of figure out where I should start my pricing back with my first earliest order. I had to learn a lot about hospitality and the industry and fit my business into that, you know, rather than just be a dinner or a company that suddenly wants to start selling to restaurants. We started out selling to restaurants. So I think I got, I got a lot out of that in terms of building a lean, efficient manufacturing company and trying to figure out first and foremost, not how much can I charge for a dinner plate, but how can I make it to dinner plate for 20 bucks? You know what I mean?

11:24So I think starting out on that note, really collaborating with, with chefs and they were on their first restaurant and I was learning a ton. It was fun and it still is fun. And I still I still do collaborate with chefs, not quite on the on the depth that I used to. But I still invite we still invite chefs and clients to come in whenever we can. I like for my company to be a resource to restauranteurs, not just a brand they buy from. But, you know, we offer something truly unique and it's it's a fun relationship. They get a lot out of it and we get a lot out of it and we continue to grow. So I really like what you mentioned.

12:07And I think this is a very practical advice about developing a product. And also pricing is something we don't talk about often and we should is you're actually fitting your product into the needs of your end users, which is something that is needs to be thought more about when we're building a new company. So then for Nick, obviously, the chefs act as this beginning point, beginning touch point and also a great advocacy channel. What elements of marketing did you leverage and also use to actually start the direct-to-consumer side to get the word out on this side of the business? Sure. I mean, we use multiple channels for our marketing.

12:53So, you know, paid social, organic social, we have a big sort of PR strategy. But it always comes back to three things that we're always talking about. So the first thing that we highlight is our process. So we're made in the USA. We have this beautiful studio in New Jersey that overlooks the Manhattan skyline, an incredible team of people who are making the ceramics, most of whom have arts backgrounds and are working artists. And this is sort of their day job. And so we can highlight that and we can highlight this very skilled craft that's happening in our studio. And I think a lot of manufacturers, a lot of dinnerware companies don't have that ability.

13:35So, you know, they might be purchasing it overseas and it's shipping over in a container and ending up at a 3PL warehouse and they're shipping it out to people that buy it. Our stuff is made in New Jersey. The raw materials come in, we form it, fire it and ship it out of our studio. And I think that's really resonated with people, especially as they try to become more conscious about what they buy. And it also just happens to be really sort of satisfying to watch on Instagram. So we'll post these reels of the clay coming through the extruder and the slabs of clay going on our molds and they just get an incredible amount of traction.

14:14So that has been one really unique thing about our business that we've been able to highlight that's gotten a lot of resonance. I think the second thing is our relationship with chefs. So as John mentioned, we are really a hospitality first company. That's the majority of our business. It's really the origin story of where we came from. And as a result, we have these incredible relationships with chefs. It's great just from a content perspective. There's incredible photos of beautiful food on our plates that we can showcase. But also, you know, from a PR perspective, we'll do collaborations with some of our best clients.

14:51So we did an amazing release with Jean-Georges around the opening of the tin building, where we put together a little set of pieces that he uses in the restaurant and sold it direct to consumer. We worked with Missy Robbins, who's the chef at Lilia, on a really interesting bowl for one of her restaurants. And, you know, we're able to sort of tell that story about how we worked with her. And it really helps to differentiate us from, you know, brands that sell really beautiful dinnerware, but don't have that sort of story about how these designs got made. So our relationship with chefs is sort of the second pillar.

15:29And then I think the third is how timeless our designs are. And as Jono mentioned, when you're selling to restaurants, when they buy a plate, they want to be able to buy it 10 years later or 20 years later because they don't want to have to constantly overhaul all the dinnerware in their restaurant. And that principle has also served the direct-to-consumer side really well. So unlike a lot of houseware brands that are constantly releasing new patterns, new products, retiring old products, we don't release a ton of new products. You know, our core line has been our core line for as long as I've worked for the company.

16:06So the designs are really timeless, but also timeless in the sense of the durability of the product. You know, we want these products to last a long time. We don't want them to end up in landfills. So they're really made and manufactured to hold up to the test of time. And I think kind of we use those three messaging points certainly on organic social. so that way when people like you flip over the plate in a restaurant and they land on our Instagram or on our website, you know, they can really kind of quickly understand what separates us from like a more traditional dinnerware manufacturer. Amazing.

16:45It's so cool to hear about the key pillars for your marketing. We mentioned, of course, so many companies during the pandemic was trying to figure out how to sell online and also ship their business to direct consumer. Tell us about this whole process of trying to start a new channel. What are some things that new founders should keep in mind when they're entering the online world? Sure. It was a sort of gradual process for us. So we had had a direct-to-consumer website, but it was not a focus of the business. It was like, if you knew about the company, you know, and you really search for us, you could buy our plates online, but we were not promoting it in any way.

17:30But the pipes were there and we sort of had the ability to take orders and ship them. But when COVID happened and we quickly had to pivot, there were a number of steps that we immediately had to take in order to sort of boost that business. So I think the first one was just our user experience and kind of making sure that customers could find our products. They were being described accurately, they were photographed well, and they knew exactly what they were buying. So the first thing we did was migrate to Shopify. That was sort of the top priority. Once that was done, I would say that the two kind of most challenging things were operationally.

18:15So how how do we go from shipping pallets of, you know, 500 dinner plates to one restaurant, to 250 individual boxes of two dinner plates to 250 different customers. So we had to overhaul all of our packaging and really be sort of thoughtful about how we ship out dinnerware, which isn't easy. But we were really cost conscious. So we weren't like working with a packaging consultant on really high-end packaging and really sort of beautifully printed inserts. It was pretty bare bones because we wanted to be able to keep our price point as accessible as we could. And then I think the last thing that we really had to sort of scramble to figure out was customer service.

19:01So when you're selling really large orders to a small number of customers, customer service isn't that challenging. You know, I was handling customer service. I was working with the chefs and kind of every so often we'd have breakage and we would deal with it. But when you're all of a sudden dealing with hundreds and then thousands of individual consumers who also expect, who live in the world of Amazon and expect their packages the next day and expect to be able to return them and sort of, if they don't like it, it was, we had to really kind of work to educate our customers about what we were as a business.

19:35You know, this stuff is handmade. It doesn't ship the next day. returning it is a huge pain because it's hard to repack and send it back so you know we had to get really clear on our policies and get really clear with like how we communicated to customers and then set up a system a ticketing system a customer service ticketing system that allowed us to sort of manage all of that operationally so I think once those three things were set up you know, a website with really good UX, a really clear customer service channel, and then shipping and fulfillment operations, which was, I would say, six months of really sort of focused work in 2020, then we were able to start thinking about kind of scaling that channel, which is what we've been doing ever since.

20:22Yeah, I mean, those are just three points you've listed, but I know that it took so much time to actually figure out and like slowly perfect over time. On the creative side, has there been data points that have affected the creative process or the production process and learnings from the direct-to-consumer channel? I think one thing that I, on the direct-to-consumer side, when the pandemic started in 2020, and as Nick mentioned, that was our chance to focus on our direct-to-consumer audience a little bit. It was always sort of a secondary part of what we were doing. And I think when Nick joined the company, it was one of the first things he started to help us with.

21:08It was becoming more robust, but it was always in the background because the restaurants always took center stage and they always kind of grabbed most of our attention. And we always kind of felt like we worked hardest on that. The pandemic came along, and it really was finally the chance that we had, I mean, I don't want to say we had been waiting for, but we had been looking for the bandwidth to revamp our retail experience, our direct-to-consumer experience. And so, especially with the packaging, and we made some changes that were a long time coming, but also really improve the customer experience.

21:48And that registered big time for me because I wasn't going to change the product. The product was the product. So from there on, you know, it was like, well, how else can we dial this in? And we've started to do more. So I enjoy seeing the direct consumer side grow. And I enjoy interfacing with our customers, especially at our pop-up shops. We just finished one up in LA and we'll do one in New York. We'll do our holiday shop in New York. We'll do at least two in New York per year. So it's been interesting to interface with folks at those pop-ups and sort of talk to them about some of the changes we've made.

22:32And then additionally, tweaking the collection a little bit towards the direct-to-consumer side. when we realized that for 2020, we were going to probably be selling, most of our plates were going to be selling to people's homes. I put in a little thought as a designer to not spruce up the collection, but to kind of create some new pieces that sort of were a little flashier and a little more attention catching online. And I think that was successful. And that led to our special edition program, which we do once a month, we release a new special edition. So it's really important to our company to keep our collections kind of the same over time.

23:12We've said that a bunch, but that's one thing that we know really helps our direct-to-consumer audience kind of stay engaged and enjoy seeing what we do and gives me a little bit of work to do as a designer on putting out a new shape or a new color once a month that is typically not available to the direct-to-consumer crowd. So that's another of thing we've done to sort of keep that enticing and fun for them. Keeps them coming back to the website. Keeps them coming back to the website. Products sell out and then people will sign up to be notified. And that's a really useful thing. So, you know, the more we do this, the more Nick finds ways to work with, to glean information and valuable information and find ways to work with it.

24:03And that really is the back end of growing the business and growing the direct-to-consumer stuff. Yeah. Yeah. And then, you know, even for the team growth as well, you know, you mentioned from six artists to now 25. I think the question here is, how do you manage a team of artists where you still need some sort of uniformity in the product that they create? And how do you inject creativity in their day and make it an enjoyable workplace for them? Um, that's, that's a good one. And that's part of, I feel like that's my biggest job now. Um, you know, I've learned a lot from Nick over his years being with us because he's got, he's got so much more experience in, in business and he's, he's worked at Google.

24:50He's been and been places and done a lot of things that I haven't, you know, been experienced in the same way. And I think one thing that he said to me that really stuck with me, um, early on was, and we probably had 15 employees at the time, was, you know, when your company gets to 24 employees, that's when they say they in quotes, I don't know where this comes from, but that's when they say that, you know, it, that's when it gets hard for the CEO. You don't know everyone as well. You think you know everyone, you think you know how to do everything, but you don't. So that stuck with me. And, and we, we passed that point pretty recently, But I think that it really resonated with me because it is important to me.

25:31My employees' experience and work-life balance is extremely important to me. And I want to share that with my team. So when I learned that or when that thought came into my mind and I couldn't unthink it about 24 employees being that sort of inflection point, I found ways to extract myself from some of the little more tedious jobs that I was still involved with. maybe that I like at work, like maintaining equipment and stuff like that. And I see it as my biggest job now to really stay plugged in with my team and focus on their experience. And that is the key to my company continuing to grow. One thing that we worked on that I think was extremely useful and helps to answer the question you just asked is, how do you work with a team that big and kind of keep everything going in the direction you want and keep everyone happy?

26:22But we worked on and we now have a set of core values for the company, which is really helpful because as I'm not in touch with as much as close in touch with my team as I've always been or as I feel like I am, they can refer to our core values from time to time to sort of think or I hope think more like I would think in certain situations. and our first core value is built from scratch. And that one's like the really the most important one to me because the company is built from scratch. And so I feel like my team, I want them to feel that first and foremost, but the others are resourceful, improving constantly, collaboration, and keep things positive.

27:09And that kind of like helps to set the stage and start the conversation with my team about what are we all about? What's important here? other than getting plates out the door. Yeah. And yeah, Nick, talk to us about the benefits and also the work environment. I think that's so unique. Yeah, thanks. So, I mean, Jono's right. As the company has grown, his role has evolved to be sort of the chief culture czar. And I think a lot of what he and I spend our time talking about is, you know, is the organization set up correctly? Do we have the right people in management roles? Are they providing feedback in a way that is sort of supportive?

27:54And so, you know, Jono spends a lot of time sort of thinking about the vibe in the studio and kind of maintaining that vibe and making sure that now that we do sort of have a management layer, that they are managing the rest of the team, you know, the way that we want them to. So we spend a lot of time on that operationally. Now we have full sets of SOPs and we've really documented our process in a very diligent way that we hadn't previously. You know, when it's just 10 people, everyone kind of knows what to do. You figure it out, you solve problems as they come up. And now that we're onboarding people regularly, and the team is growing, we did a big push last year to really document our whole process.