How to Turn Passion Into Profit

0:00Hey, everyone. In case you didn't know, we launched a YouTube channel for Shopify Masters. So go ahead and subscribe for brand new video episodes. Thank you so much. I think community is thrown around loosely a lot, but I think the power of community is when you create this real opportunity for like dialogue and conversation and engagement. Hey everyone, welcome to Shopify Masters, your companion for starting and building a business. I'm your host, Schwang Esther Shan. Ever wonder how a chef's secret recipe becomes a nationwide sensation or how a pop-up transforms into a multi-million dollar brand?

0:42Well, Nick Wiseman is here to answer all those questions. Nick followed his passion for cooking from getting summer jobs to becoming a fine dining chef. He then co-founded Little Sesame, a Washington, D.C.-based brand serving up smooth hummus and sunny vibes. He's here to share how he's built close connections with local farmers while expanding into Whole Foods and other retailers. Nick, welcome to the show. Appreciate you having me. Well, it's so great to have you here. You have a very interesting journey from having this great interest in food, becoming a chef, and then you also enter into the consumer packaged goods world, also taking things online.

1:27mine. Take us through some of that journey, how the love of cooking led you to Little Sesame. So yeah, I started cooking in restaurants when I was 15 years old. It was actually driven by a terrible decision to be a wrestler in high school where we were deprived of eating. And so my fix was watching Food Network, which translated into kind of admiration for chefs and ultimately a summer job in restaurants. And so I, age of 15, I was like working in one of the better kitchens in DC, you know, on the very lowest rungs of the kitchen, just sort of peeling onions and cutting potatoes and, but learning the ropes.

2:04And I got really intrigued with sort of restaurant life and kind of chased it thereafter. So spent all my, my, my breaks away from school, certainly all summer cooking in restaurants. And that was sort of where like the journey began in restaurants and, you know, kind of like learned a lot along the way at various steps. I was lucky enough to go to school out in California at Berkeley. And, you know, after growing up in DC, you know, you see like fruit cheese growing out of, out of the, you know, on street corners in Berkeley. And, um, I think it kind of really changed my perception of, of ingredients and sourcing, um, and kind of connected to origin story of food, um, which was like a big learning for me and it shaped a lot about my career thereafter.

2:45And, um, I was lucky enough to the meat house waters and just be immersed in kind of some of the better for you food world, which is really, again, kind of connecting the dots between, you know, good farming and good food. And that really stuck with me. And after school, I went straight to New York City. And like literally the day I graduated, I was on a plane and off to New York, kind of chasing the New York fine dining world, trying to work for some of the best chefs I could and learn as much as possible. And spent a few years up in New York, again, working in some top kitchens across different stations, kind of really, again, sort of just chasing my chef dreams.

3:24And there is where I kind of like dialed in, you know, the skills and elevated, like kind of the level of cooking that I was doing and just surrounded by some really talented people there. And the level of cooking, you know, that I think happens a lot of these high-end kitchens was just, you know, I think really impressive to me, really drew me in. And it really like dialed in sort of like my intentionality around food. But I think that like world was not for me for the long term. You know, there was just like the rigidity of it, the narrowness of the people we were serving. And so kind of was always dreaming to break out and do something different and was lucky enough to meet Ronan, who is now my partner in Little Sesame, who trained me on the fish station working under Michael White's chef up in New York.

4:04And that's sort of where the Little Sesame journey begins. I love how you've really built up on this passion and grew it from the ground up. And I think that's also mirroring some of the experiences you have with Little Sesame as well. You and Ronan started testing this idea. You've had pop-ups, community dinners, farmers markets. You really tested the idea on a smaller scale before growing it bigger. So what's your advice for other founders to actually take the time to test out their idea? Yeah, I mean, I think that's actually the first piece of advice I always give, which is I think it can be so daunting, I think, when you're kind of trying to take that first step.

4:46And I think you kind of like imagine all the things that could happen and like the end goal of where you're trying to take it. And I think in most cases, it's like that first little step that's that just you learn so much and kind of illuminates the next steps from there. And so I think always it's small steps. I think, you know, anything I've learned every day is that it's like all just, you know, kind of constantly iterating and learning and just moving it forward small, small step at a time. And so I'd say that absolutely the first thing when you're starting to sort of embark on one of these projects is like, how do you just get the product out in the world and get some real genuine feedback?

5:22You know, you don't have to start by launching your, you know, fully, fully built out sort of e-commerce experience. But do people actually want the product you're selling? And, you know, it's I think getting feedback from the community is one of the most important things to do. You know, just because I think it's that's, you know, you really start to get understanding of product market fit. Are you solving a problem? And is it a product that people want? And I think those two things are pretty critical to understand early. So, you know, going out in the world and actually doing it, whether it's a pop-up or, you know, a small, you know, test in another restaurant or, you know, leveraging kind of creative economical ways to sort of test product market fit, even at a really small scale, I think you're going to learn a lot.

6:07especially in the dining setting where you can actually see someone immediately react to your food there's like no better feedback loop than that i think for sure yeah no food is that's the nice thing of food right it's it's um you know i think you you you can know if you're solving a problem pretty quickly right it's it's um there's a lot of satisfaction built in and the immediacy of the reward is is always there so yeah i think it's true you get a lot of direct feedback and i think that's the, you know, it's hard in this world of D2C world, you get into selling to retail, there's a lot of like, you're disintermediated from the people that you're serving.

6:41And so I think the power of the early days is like, you actually have this opportunity at a smaller scale to really connect with people, get honest feedback, and like actually shape a product that people want. You know, I think, of course, like as founders, we think we're offering something of value to the world, and we can kind of choreograph what people want. But a lot of time that takes molding and shaping and improving to really actually solve the problem. And so definitely like that first small step involving community and really getting honest feedback, I think is, will set you up for a lot of success.

7:14Certainly, certainly did for us, you know, and again, I think to your point is, we always have iterated and tested. I mean, we were out in the, you know, Ronan and I travel up and down the East Coast cooking, you know, getting feedback from, you know, other chefs from, you know, diners from, you know, farmers, like we really did go out there the world and seek that feedback. And when we started testing to launch into the CPG space, we, again, we were handpacking pints of hummus. We were selling in, you know, smaller regional, you know, distributors. We were just really doing everything we could to say, like, is this a product that people really want?

7:45And again, we learned a lot, right? And that was really shaped, you know, kind of where Little Sesame is now. Your journey is quite unique, even though there are certain direct-to-consumer brands like Mila or Magnolia Bakery we've chatted with before that comes from the restaurant space and then transition online. What is your advice there to enter this completely new sales channel and unlock some of the growth there? Totally. Well, I mean, I think the best thing of coming from a restaurant and any restaurant person knows is just there's a level of scrappiness of restaurant operators. We're constantly solving problems.

8:20We're constantly under-resourced. And, you know, I think that's just sort of the nature of being in a restaurant, right, is that's, you know, I think you learn a lot of life skills that translate to anything, and certainly to CPG. And so, you know, I think the through line as well is also just like a level of hospitality in any business, right? It's like we're ultimately serving our customers. And so, and I think one of the most powerful lessons I've learned in my time in restaurants is like, you know, you're creating a product for other people, right? And so it's not about you necessarily, It's really about them and how do you build that experience into the product at all levels.

8:55And it's hard to do at D2C. It's hard to do even at retail, right? But I think it's the small details and it's really like so much thought that goes into kind of building a product that kind of weaves in hospitality and the things we learned in our restaurant days. So A, I think restaurants are just like an awesome learning space to launch any business. There also isn't just tons of venture money dumped into restaurants. You kind of restaurants have to operate profitably. That's and I think that's a good lesson in today's day and age, just with the nature of funding and how expensive capital is.

9:27So, you know, that's always a good lesson to learn. A hard one, but it's a good one. So, yeah, I think that that is all of that foundationally set us up for success. And then I think the other thing was, again, kind of back to the last point, which is, you know, we in our restaurant, you know, we started making hummus because Ronan was kind of famous for making hummus at family meals in the restaurant in New York. Family meals, like when the whole staff comes together and and the cooks cook a meal and everyone kind of shares a meal before service. And it's a really special part of restaurants.

9:59It's like one of my favorite things. And Ronan was, again, like everyone always wanted Ronan to cook family meal. He was and so the hummus was kind of born out of that because, you know, we were used to getting hummus off grocery store shelves. And we're all just kind of blown away by by the kind of the freshly spun hummus he would make for family meal. So that's where the product started. And then in our restaurant, you know, the centerpiece was was our hummus. And again, we really built a reputation around hummus. You know, we built a reputation around like a local set of customers in D.C. We built a reputation among the press.

10:31And so I think that, again, enabled us to really test the product and refine the product. And we spent years just improving on the recipe and the formulation and understanding really what about what we were making was special and differentiated and unique and really, again, solved the problem at the market at scale. And so we learned a lot in our restaurant days. And so I think that's the value, again, is you're getting all this direct feedback constantly. So I don't know if everyone can replicate a restaurant environment, but I do think, again, the same idea of like, as you continue to scale, making sure that you're really creating an environment where you're getting feedback, and that you're continuing to build a product that really resonates with the audience.

11:06And, and also just like really continues to grow and adapt and learn from the audience. Because again, like that's you really are. And I think what we've benefited from is that we have a really core group of like strong loyalists who love our product. And they're our biggest champions. And like, there's no marketing dollar we could spend more powerful than they. And they're out in the world constantly kind of evangelizing us and spreading the word about Little Sesame and their communities. And so, you know, I think not only is it useful in terms of improving product, but those people become your champions.

11:35And you certainly need them in your corner if you want to try to, you know, scale a business. I love hearing about the evolution of the hummus from like family meals to the restaurant centerpiece, and then now reaching different families through retailers or direct-to-consumer. Was it hard to still figure out that logistics piece? Because I think for you and Ronan, nailing down the taste is no problem. But how did you figure out keeping the products cold, making sure you've made enough to meet demand, and getting the goods to someone's home in the state that you want it to be in? Yeah, I mean, it's all been a learning curve, right?

12:15We're used to like a restaurant where you control the end product, you know, and you see it every time. You know, here we send out our product in the world and it floats away. It's, you know, pallets floating in trucks across the country every day. You know, I think it's, again, that same sort of spirit of hospitality and relationship building is that foundational to everything is just like strong relationships. And, you know, we really try to build that spirit among all of our vendors and all of our partners. And, you know, again, strong relationships and trust and transparency, like that's always going to lead to the best results.

12:45And we've been lucky. We added a guy on our team, Chris Muller. He came from Minor Figures Oat Milk. And he, you know, he kind of joined our sales team early days, right as we were making the transition into CPG. And he just, I think, has really built into the DNA of Little Sesame, this idea of leading with relationships. and, you know, the relationships, the way we act is kind of going to be reciprocated by our partners. And I think it's just been such an invaluable lesson for us, you know, in terms of, again, kind of we don't have that level of control once the product leaves our factory, but we've built strong relationships and a level of trust with our partners that take it sort of that last mile.

13:22And there's, you know, a level of confidence that when it lands on the grocery store shelf, it's, you know, it's as good a product as we could possibly make. So I think relationships always are going to be a driver of success. And again, I think a lot of it was learning as well, like kind of knowing our knowledge gaps and what we didn't know. You know, we were restaurant people. We came with ability to problem solve and be scrappy, but we didn't know how the CPG world worked. And so surrounding ourselves with great mentors and advisors, people that knew was key as well. And so I think it's the humility to know kind of what you don't know was important.

13:55I remind myself of that often, even as we've gotten a little further We're in it, like constantly surrounding ourselves with people that have been through it, you know, the next phase, always one step ahead of us and can help us make better decisions. So I'd say building relationships and then making sure you're surrounded by the smart people that have been through it before that can kind of limit the number of bad decisions you make. And bad decisions are inevitable. And I think that's the last thing we really kind of build into the culture of Little Sesame, which is, you know, look, we all make mistakes.

14:24That's inevitable. We're all humans. Are we learning from them? You know, and are we sharing those learnings with the rest of the team? And are we getting better every day? And I think, you know, so long as we're doing that, you know, the company's getting better, the product's getting better, you know, and we'll all be better off. Having the right partnerships is so crucial. And I think the genesis of Little Sesame all ties back to the partnership between you and Ronan. You worked in so many different restaurants and have worked with so many different chefs. What is it about Ronan himself that makes you think you guys can actually be in business together?

15:01Yeah, I mean, yin yang in terms of our energy and spirit. There was a funny video we made in the early days. And Ronan described me as like, I think it was like neurotic and type A. And we had to like edit it out. I think the pieces of it made it through to the video. But it was kind of like our first about us video. But it's true. You know, I think like we, my energy is definitely more like a bit hard charging and can be intense in moments. And, you know, I think I kind of where I sit now in Little Sesame is kind of like setting the vision and kind of like pulling the team behind me. And Ronan is, you know, Ronan manages all the operations.

15:37And because we've had really pretty incredible growth the past couple of years, it's just constant problem solving. and it requires, I think, a level of like calm and ability to just like, you know, really navigate pretty intense storms in moments. And I think they're constantly coming. And so I think my like kind of hard charging energy keeps the boat moving forward and Ronan kind of keeps us from capsizing because it's just sort of like that necessary balance that we bring each other. So I think been lucky to have him, you know, it is always kind of, you know, the Wild West in terms of like, how do you pick a partner and how can you choreograph all the things that are to happen?

16:17You know, again, I think at its core as well is just communication and trust and the ability that both people, you know, or the number of however many founders sort of are starting to build. I mean, there is like a true set of ownership over what you're responsible to do and that there is the initiative you take to kind of get it done. And I think when those things happen and you feel a level of like deep trust that the partnership is everyone's doing what they can to make their piece of the business successful and that you're there for each other and have each other's back when it's not and help solve problems when you make mistakes.

16:53I think like, you know, so that's the first piece is kind of like that ownership. And the second piece is like, Hey, I really trust this person has my back. And if things don't go right, that we'll be there together to solve it. I think it's been kind of instrumental for us. And I think this would be instrumental in any partnership. So, So, you know, I think like our personality fit was kind of the underlying thing that made it work. And I think the through line as well is just like having fun and maintaining friendship. I mean, Ronan and I met in New York. We had the same spirit. He was a way better line cook than me.

17:24But we were always just friends, you know. And I think, you know, we didn't contemplate necessarily going into business together. But, you know, I think we've done a really good job of like maintaining a core friendship as well. which I think just makes it really rewarding right so every time we make progress or there's a milestone or celebration I think it like feels even better just like having that core relationship and we've grown a lot you know we now if both of us have had kids the and we both had you know gotten married and so it's like we've grown a lot and we've lived a lot of life together and so I think it's you know not only like celebrating the work moments but also being there for each other and kind of like those personal moments and you know I think that's uh you know I think we have I'm very lucky.

18:06We have a great partnership, and I know it's hard to build, and I'm lucky to have run in. Yeah, celebrating together is very important. Obviously, growing together throughout the years. I'm very interested in building a team for a CPG company might look different than building a team in a restaurant, but has there been similar themes or qualities you look for when you're hiring people, whether it's for a restaurant or any type of business? Yeah, I mean, I think we always lead with like culture fit, you know, as this person, you know, going to fit into the large organization, you know, I think we have, you know, really pride ourselves in building like a really healthy culture balance between life and work, you know, we both like to have fun outside of work and try to make sure that that's, you know, represented across the entire team.

18:55and there's space to do that. And it's not only space, but it's celebrated to do that, right? That like, you know, work is important and we all, we hold ourselves a high standard and we want to build a, we want to build a big company, but also at the same time, we like want to have fun and be, you know, part of our family and live other lives as well. And so I think we always kind of lead by example, by doing that. And I think make sure that not only others are like have the space to do it, but actually like it's kind of celebrated when they do. And so I think we always have led with that And we've made sure that that's sort of communicated at all levels.

19:27And I think a lot of people say that, but it's not always the case, right? And so I think like really, I think that's the biggest thing of culture building is like, it's easy to put things on paper, but it's much harder to enact them and kind of like live to the values when things are tense or when there's a lot to do or, you know, when you're in a tough moment. And so I think, you know, we've really tried to stay true to those values as we've grown. And so I think in terms of finding talent, I think, again, knowing where the knowledge gaps are, right? So it's like, what don't we know? And where can we really find people that can help solve problems inside the organization?

20:02And I think that's been really successful. There's not like a playbook of like, okay, first, you're going to hire a sales director, then you're going to hire a marketing director, you know, create that, that, that push pull, you know, it just doesn't work like that. And at least it didn't for us. And so I think for us, it was like, what are our strengths, you know, starting with Ronan and myself, some of the foundational team, we had. And then like, where are there knowledge gaps or skill gaps or talent gaps? And then how do we kind of build roles that really solve the problems that we're having?

20:29And I think you can't until you're in it and you really can feel where you're at, you kind of learn how to solve those problems. And a lot of times, again, people are, you know, there's nothing better than a, you know, a strong team member to help kind of build or solve a problem. And so again, I think that's just been a really instrumental for us. It's like, we're not trying to follow a playbook or look at how other companies' org charts look. It's like, what are our unique set of challenges and where are our knowledge gaps and how do we kind of look at talent as a way to solve those problems?

20:56And I think the other thing is always kind of looking at the existing team. And we're constantly rewriting job descriptions and constantly looking at like, what are existing roles look like and how are they shifting too? Because you wear a lot of hats in the early days. And I think that you have to start to shed hats to be really good at what you're doing. And so I think we're constantly engaging with our team and saying, okay, like, how do we take this or restructure this role or pull this off your plate? And how do we like really start to narrow and deepen the individual roles as we start adding people?

21:26And so not only is like the new person successful, but you're more successful. And so I think a lot of hiring is also making sure that the existing team continues to evolve as well. So that there's really like, again, a sense that when everyone kind of clicks together, there's just sort of like a natural flow to how the team is structured. Looking for talent that complements the team. And I feel like you guys have also done this with getting advice or advisors, mentors to basically also help you navigate through some of the new chapters within CPG or e-commerce. Talk to us a little bit about that, like finding the right mentorship as you're trying to skill and grow.

22:07I think the CPG space may be unique. I found it really rewarding. Like it does seem like there's just a lot of people that want to help. It's a hard business. So I think people who have been through it, founders at all levels, but particularly founders, like I think there's a rewarding piece in kind of sharing the learnings and kind of bringing up the next generation of founders. And so, you know, I've been lucky to have a lot, be surrounded by just some awesome people. I mean, in early days, Nick Jemay from Sweetgreen, he was just such an awesome, he was always a believer in us and just, you know, gave us confidence to kind of just like build in the early days and take the leap ultimately into CPG.

22:42I remember a call with him over COVID where I was like, you know, I don't see the future of restaurants right now. Like we're kind of, you know, we built something that we thought really could work and now sort of everything is in question. You know, he's like, you know, people are rewarded for taking the biggest leaps, the most difficult moments and, you know, take this leap and see where it takes you. And so I credit a lot of it to Nick and he's just been an awesome mentor. and friend of mine over the time. And so I think it's, you know, really having trust in some core people. You know, I think it's easy to just also just get too many opinions and too much advice.

23:14So I think it's just like really starting to like, you know, talking to a lot of people, but making sure that like your core set of people you're getting advice from is dialed in and is willing to challenge you. And that there's a level of trust on both sides to really have that like real dialogue. And it's not just sort of validating what you think, but helping you think about things in a new way. And the challenges change. So, you know, it requires sort of constantly bringing in new people. As the business gets bigger, you know, it makes sense to have founders who have taken it to the next level or, you know, a couple steps ahead of us.