Retail Expansion: How to Know When You’re Ready

0:00We set up the store as kind of a pick and pack set up for our retail store. So everything that we put up online, we treated it as an e-commerce platform, not as a restaurant ordering platform.

0:19I'm Benjamin Gottlieb, and this is Shopify on location, coming to you from Montreal. Okay, I'm about to offend some New Yorkers here with this statement. Montreal has the best bagels. Well, that's at least what Amit Matani thinks. He's the owner of Bagels on Green. It's a bakery here in town. And he's been able to grow his business by both leaning into corporate catering and selling his products online with us on Shopify. Amit is here today to talk to me more about how he's been able to do this. And Amit, I am so happy to have you here. Thanks for joining us. Thank you for having me. Okay, let's get this out of the way if we can.

0:56What is it about the Montreal bagel that makes it the best? I think it's the recipe, the water, the love, the wood fire cooking, everything that goes into it. It's just been created from something beautiful. It's an amazing product that we've just developed here in Montreal. Now, I should admit, I'm a big bagel fan. I have a few at least every week. And I'm from Los Angeles. I'm a little partial here. I'm not going to get my LA-ness into the conversation here. But when it comes to dealing with a baked product, there's only so much you can do, right? I mean, there's only so much you can do to a Danish or so much you can do to a croissant.

1:31How do you set yourself apart here in Montreal where there's a big scene making bagels? So in terms of the product itself, there's a ton of stuff you can do with it in terms of, you know, how soft or how hard the outside shell is, in terms of how sweet the product is, how long you cook it for. It makes a world of difference. If you take, you know, one croissant from one bakery or you take another croissant from another bakery, they're going to taste completely different. It's the same thing with bagels. The recipe plays a huge part in it. And our bagels are a completely different recipe from Fairmount's bagels or St.

2:04Peter's bagels or even other people in Montreal. Fairmount, St. Peter's is our big brand here in Montreal. You actually come from a family of entrepreneurs, which for us at Shopify is something that we are super excited about. and you don't necessarily come from a, let's say a tradition of eating and making bagels, right? So what is it, how did you get involved in this space? Walk us through that journey a little bit. So my dad was in the clothing industry a long time ago and he was sitting one day with his accountant and his accountant had opened up this bagel shop. It was a little 1600 square foot place that he had opened up for his wife and another partner of his and said, hey, we're looking to sell this place.

2:43If you know anybody, let me know. My dad's like, okay. He wanted a footing outside the clothing industry, so he took my mom, he took me, and we went down to the store, took a look around, and he sat down, we had lunch there. He's like, this place, this place could do really well.

3:02Little by little, he convinced all of us, and, you know, we jumped headfirst. He put my mom in there, she was running the day shift. I had just started at Marienopolis. I took over the afternoon and night shift, and we just grew it from there. Meridopolis is a local school, local college? Yeah, local college here in Montreal. So you were going to school, and then in the evenings you'd come by the bagel shop. Yeah, exactly. And what was it like those early days when you were working in the shop? You're like, oh, God, I have to go to work now at the bagel store? No, I loved it from the minute I walked in there.

3:30It was awesome. I mean, how can you not love it? There's food all around you. You have croissants, cookies, danishes, bagels, salads, literally everything we could want to eat was there. And as a growing boy, I loved walking in there every afternoon. I would get my lunch taken care of and I would go work the afternoon shift. Now, this isn't just some humble bagel shop where you mentioned growth. It's a great transition to the expansion of your shop, of your store, of your brand. It's really incredible. I mean, you knock down some walls, you expand into other buildings, other spaces, right? Yeah.

4:02I mean, when did you decide or how did you determine when it was the right time to do this, the right time to grow? Well, in 2008, the person that was next to us, their lease was over. and the landlord came to us and asked us if we were interested to take over the space. We looked at the store and we were like stuffed to the max. There was no space for us to even work or have customers sit down properly. We had, I think, six or seven tables in the space. So we said, you know, it would be a great opportunity for us to break down the wall and have space for more people to sit in the store. So that's exactly what we did.

4:33We broke down the wall, we opened it up, moved some stuff around, moved the equipment around, got more tables and chairs in there, and then, you know, kept going from there. And then again, in 2013, the next person next to us was leaving as well. Landlord came to us again and said, hey, would you be interested in taking over the space? And again, we had reached that, you know, five-year, we're at capacity mark. So we decided to jump headfirst again and broke down the wall, opened up the space again, reorganized the entire store.

5:05And we did this all kind of without shutting down. So overnight, we would do, you know, little moves here and there, and the customers would come in and be like, oh, where's the coffee now? It's, you know, it's in the back corner here. Where's the cash today? It's in the, you know, it's in that far left corner.

5:24So they would kind of discover the store and learn with us, and they'd give us their feedback as well. You know, I don't like the coffee there. I don't like the Danish's over here, and we'd listen to it and move things around. So we have that loyal customer base as well that has stuck with us through those expansions as well. You know, I'm sitting here listening to you talk about your business and you have such a joy about it. And this is kind of what's at the heart of being an entrepreneur is loving what you do. But it can be it can be tough. It can be scary to think like I'm going to dedicate myself to one thing or one store.

5:56Just from your own perspective, how would you tell somebody like, hey, you should follow that idea versus the other one? What is what is the determining factor for someone when taking the leap into doing something like this? I mean, I think it's necessary for you to love what you want to do. And the growth of the business has always come from that. Where the direction is going is always, it's where we kind of see the path in 10 years, where we see ourselves in 10 years. So for us, that growth was in the retail space. We took over those two locations. And once we took over that third location, we realized that, you know, if we get too big on the retail front, there is a maximum number of people that we can serve every day in a reasonable time frame.

6:37So we started. You mean in the store. In the store, exactly. So, yeah, the next growth for us was expanding into the catering market. So that's where the passion has come from is what's the next step for growth that we can achieve? We'll get to catering. in a moment, but I just want to take one step backward. You mentioned you love what you do. It's at the heart of what all entrepreneurs have to have. You must also be okay working with your family, right? Because this is a family enterprise. What is it like working with your family? And do you think that gives you certain advantages over other folks who are just working with a business partner or with employees?

7:14There's good and bad that comes with it. it's very challenging. My mom is, you know, she has a heart of gold. She's awesome. She does literally everything that, you know, she needs to do or has to do in the store. She takes care of all the retail stuff. She orders products. She handles the customer complaints. She's the front of the store. I think it's necessary when you're working with family to have those established boundaries of who's doing what. And my dad is the chef in the store. So he runs the kitchen in the back and I run the offsite stuff. So everybody has their own distinct actions of the store, distinct jobs in the store, and we all manage it individually.

7:52So it's not really one big family business and all three heads are making decisions. You can't have that. You can't have three heads in a business. There has to be individuals taking care of their own sections and their own individual businesses within the store. But I'm sure because you're working with your parents, I'm sure there are moments where they're like, hey, Amit, you probably could do this a little bit differently, right? And my dad's not shy about giving his opinion. So how do you manage that? Because I'm sure that other folks who are listening right now who are like, oh, man, I want to start this business.

8:23My family's involved. Maybe it's my brother or my sister, even my parents. I just can't see myself working with them. How do I do that? There's fights that are going to come along the way. You have to deal with them. There's nothing stronger than family that's going to keep it together during a business. If you have a business partner, you know, within a whim, you're broken up and everything's gone. But when it comes to family, you can't just turn around and say, hey, dad, I'm never going to talk to you again. It doesn't work like that. So you work through all the problems that you have with him.

8:50Amit, I want to ask you a little bit about what it was like to take over an established business, because that's what you did. This place already existed. We've kind of talked a little bit about your expansion. What was it like taking over something that already existed, a place that probably people in the community went to, knew, they probably knew the owner? Here comes you and your family. And I would imagine you injected your new ideas, perhaps a new approach. Walk us through what that was like and any challenges you faced. So I was quite young when we took over the store. I didn't really have to deal with too much of the customer facing complaints that came in in the beginning.

9:24But ultimately, I think the community was happy that we took over. There was no real major complaints that came in because we were trying to cater to whatever they wanted. it. So we would do things based on their suggestions. Their feedback. Yeah, their feedback that was coming in.

9:44We didn't change anything too drastically right in the beginning. We made little small changes. So, you know, they amount to a big change over the year, but nothing so dramatic that you would notice it instantaneously. You know, we went down, I think, four or five years down the line and we still had people coming up to us and saying, hey, is this new owners now? You know, they'd realized there's so many things that have been changed over the last four or five years. And now they're realizing maybe it's new owners, but it's actually been, you know, slow changes over the last. And that was intentional.

10:14Yeah, it was intentional. Yeah. And the reason was you didn't want to disrupt the clientele. Yeah, there was no reason to disrupt. Everything was functioning properly. We just wanted to make small, better changes throughout the store. I think now, if you look at what the store was, what it is now, there's some big changes, right? You mentioned you leaned into catering and also So you've been using technology to make not just the customer experience better, but your employees experience better. What have you done technologically speaking to kind of improve the day to day processes of the store?

10:44We've kind of shifted away from anything that was manual or analog sort of technology. And we've tried to digitize everything as much as possible. A lot of that being the online stuff that we do with the Shopify store, anything that is done on online ordering for catering. So all that has come as a technological advancement for us. And when it comes to the store, right? I mean, when you think of a bakery on Shopify, it's like, wait a minute, isn't that an e-commerce platform? But actually there are real opportunities for using our platform and for selling your stuff. I mean, how do you use the platform and why do you use it?

11:21So honestly, when the pandemic started, I, you know, I was focused so heavily on the catering stuff that when the pandemic started, everybody was working from home and that was my main clientele. so our catering business kind of shut down overnight. So I was sitting there and the retail stuff, my mom was taken care of and the kitchen stuff was really, yeah, my pops was taking care of that. So I really had nothing much to do. So I said, you know what? This is a perfect opportunity for us to take our business online. We didn't have an online presence. So I spoke to one of my friends. He was working on some digital marketing and he said, let's set up a Shopify store for you.

11:53It'll take 15 minutes to set up. It's super fast. And then we can link it to your Facebook page, do some Facebook advertising, do some Instagram ads, and you'll be off the ground. It's not a heavy investment. Just invest a little bit of money in getting the store off the ground and some money in advertising, and you'll be set to go. So I said, okay. And literally within, I don't know, one night, he had 90 % of my products online. He said, just load the pictures that you have here, put up all the information, and then we'll start some advertising. And he linked the two accounts together. He got everything up and running for me within like four or five hours.

12:28And that was it. And he started teaching me how to use the Shopify store, how to use the Facebook ads, how to link the two, how to track the information that was coming back and forth from them, what to look for in terms of, you know, what's doing well, what's not doing well, what to remove, how people shop online, where their eyes go. This is all available online. So it's so easy for somebody to start a store within, you know, a couple of hours. I didn't realize how quick it worked. And you were working out of necessity, right? The pandemic had shut down kind of what you were doing. And so you just migrated naturally to selling online.

13:06What was it like those early days when you started selling stuff and you're like, oh shit, I can sell bagels online through Shopify, right? Yeah, it was great. We set up the store as a kind of a pick and pack setup for our retail store. So everything that we put up online, it's like buying a shirt or anything else from any other store. We treated it as an e-commerce platform, not as a restaurant ordering platform. There's no customization when you go there. There's very little customization. You can order a six pack of bagels or a 12 pack of bagels. You can't order a customized sandwich for delivery.

13:41So we set it up so that it was super easy for people to get online, order whatever they wanted, and our main products were on there. We have, I think, 4 ,000 products in the store. So we didn't put everything online. We put our main products that would do the best and then we advertise the hell out of that. I'm sorry, 4 ,000 products in the store? Yeah. My God. Yeah, I mean, we're called Bagels on Green, but it's not anywhere close to just bagels. We do so much other stuff. I'm here with Amit Matani. He's the owner and president of Bagels on Green. Before we continue, I want to take a quick second and thank you, yes, you, our listeners, for tuning into the show today.

14:19We are so appreciative. And if you can, please leave us a review. We'd love to hear what you think of the program. Amit, let's get back, if we can, to this catering business. I would imagine that's become a big part of what you're doing now as things have opened up again and we are back in the flow of normal life, whatever that means. How do you use your online presence to supercharge your catering business? So our store has an entire section that is dedicated just for catering. So anything that is platters, sandwich platters, large family style salads, dessert platters, vegetable platters, all sorts of different things.

14:564 ,000 things. So, yeah, we use that. We have individual items that are there. And then, you know, if people want something customized, they can email us and say, hey, I saw this, this, this, this, this items. But I want, you know, instead of 14 sandwiches, I need 18 or I need 35 or I need 150, whatever it might be. So they can email us to say at least they've seen the product and we can customize an order for them. So you can customize an order for them. I would imagine maybe for some of your older clients interacting with you or used to interacting with you in person, this move to online might have been at first a little bit, I don't know, different, let's just say.

15:35What has surprised you the most when you kind of moved a lot of this stuff from that in-person retail store location online? Not too much, honestly. We have a lot of loyal customers that we were dealing with prior to the pandemic. and honestly, we would deal with them and they would email us saying, hey, I need lunch for 15 people. And it's like, go figure it out. They don't want to deal with the ins and outs of it. So we still have that, but there's a lot of people that have discovered us that we do catering or a lot of the new people that have come into the business have looked us up because a colleague told them about us and the first thing when you go to our website, it's the Shopify store.

16:11So they immediately go to the catering section because that's what they're looking for and they'll order from there. They're already being told that everything is fresh, you know, delivered on time, everything's organized for you. So they go and pick whatever they want and off they go. Off they go. And, you know, it's, I think it's really applicable, not just the learnings that you've had for our listeners in terms of bagels, but a lot of these things apply to other perishable goods, right? It's not just bagels maybe, but other vendors that are selling all sorts of food. And I'm curious, when it comes to selling food, what are some things that you've learned while doing this that might be applicable to other folks who want to sell their food online?

16:50First off, if you have a retail location, start with your main products, the best sellers. Don't go with anything else. Definitely advertise as much as you can online and don't be afraid to change up the advertising and try different things. The worst thing that's going to happen is somebody won't click on it. It's not the end of the world. The other thing is make sure the user experience is as seamless as possible. If you make sure that their click-through ratios are as fast as possible, you'll get the most amount of checkouts, I think. And in terms of choosing which products to sell, change things up.

17:21There's nothing stopping you from modifying the products that are online and make sure that the best sellers are online. And if something is, you know, a best seller in the retail side, it's not necessarily going to be a best seller online.

17:38So make sure you track them individually as a retail portion and as an online portion. On Shopify, you have the data, the insight to see what's selling and what's not, right? Yeah. Was there something that surprised you when you were looking at this like, oh my God, this is what's selling versus another product? Yeah. Honestly, we sell more six packs of bagels than dozen bagels. It shocked the hell out of me. I don't know if people just don't realize that we have a discount on a dozen bagels, but they'll buy two times six bagels instead of buying one dozen bagels. I don't know why. That just shocks me.

18:08How interesting. So instead of buying the discounted 12. Correct. So instead of doing that, they're buying two six packs of bagels. Yeah. Very strange. So I've got to ask you, we've been talking a lot about making those sales online, but when you work in the food industry, it's not just selling. You've also got to manage all of the waste. I'm sure you've got extra bagels, day old bagels, just other food waste. Do you have any advice for managing this type of stuff? Yeah, it's not easy. Again, if you take the best products in your store and you're rotating through them as fast as possible, you'll minimize as much waste as possible.

18:47But obviously, you can't fix everything. We have days where it'll start raining in the middle of the day and we'll have 20 dozen bagels left over. That's the way it rolls. We have a rack at the side of the store and people want to buy yesterday's bagels. So they're half price and people go buy them. And if they don't sell the next day, we donate them. Managing that, it's always a struggle. It's been 19 years I'm in this business. It's going to be a struggle. It's something that you just have to try and do your best at. So you do donate the bagels after a couple of days? Yeah, after the second day.

19:16Is that something you'd recommend for other food industry folks? Yeah, of course. The shelters are all around Montreal and they're always happy to receive a donation. There's companies that specialize in that and they'll come directly to your store and pick up whatever you have on a weekly basis or on a biweekly basis. Is there anything you have to navigate in terms of legally or things that any requirements you have to meet to do those donations? I mean, we don't donate any meat. I would stay away from meats and cheese. Apart from that, breads, danishes. Yeah, I don't think there's any issues.

19:44Salads, no problem. Now, I got to ask you, product expansion has really grown in your business over the last few years. You mentioned catering. You also do large events, right? You got the online delivery, discounts, although we just talked about some folks don't necessarily follow the discounts. What challenges come with expanding services, right? from going from retail to all these other offerings. And what should other folks look for when they're thinking about expanding? How do you choose which area to go into? I think choosing the area is based on what you feel the next growth pattern is gonna be for your business, how well that's gonna do to get you to the next level of your business.

20:23Struggles, staff. Managing the staff when you get to a certain point, I think it gets very challenging. You need to account for people to manage the staff, which is something I'm currently learning as we expand. And as you've been expanding, you've been taking a little bit more of a hands-off approach because you have to manage the managers, right? Yeah, exactly. And what's that been like for you? It's good. I'm a very hands-on person, so it's tough for me to step away. I try my best, but I stand in the back and I watch the staff do certain things, and then I'll try and comment on it. But if it gets too busy, I can't hold back.

20:57I have to step in. And I always feel like I've been in the business for 20 years. So it's a natural habit for me. So I step in and I can clear a line relatively quickly. Well, I'm sure you would agree. It's that passion that keeps you at this business. And it's what many entrepreneurs who are loving what they do, they continue to go back to fuel them, right? In this journey that you guys are on. Yeah. Well, Amit, this has been great. Thank you so much for coming by and chatting with me. Thank you for having me. That's Amit Matani. He's the owner of Bagels on Green. Our show is produced by Gogo Zoger and Megan Coyle.