The Playbook for Creative Branding

0:00It had to be cereal. Cereal is the only product in the grocery store that carries culture in this really unique way. It's already built in that people expect mascots. There's animated content, there's toys, there's fun. It's like one of the coolest marketing storytelling products available. Hey, I'm Shuang Esser Shan and welcome to Shopify Masters, your companion for starting and building a business. What if the cartoons you watched on Saturday mornings merged with a cereal you enjoyed to become something even better? Meat Off Limits, the vegan and gluten-free cereal made without any artificial ingredients, and has its own band of fun and bold mascots.

0:47Founder and CEO Emily Miller previously ran an event series called Breakfast Club in dozens of cities around the world to connect like-minded individuals through food. She's also the author of Breakfast, the Cookbook. Emily is here now to share how her community first approach allowed her to build an inclusive brand that's disrupting cereal aisles across the country. Emily, welcome to the show. Yeah, happy to be here. So excited to chat because I know that Off Limits is a culmination of so many different communities that you build, from the Breakfast Club events to fans of your writing. Can you tell us about how these different experiences became the building blocks and career milestones that eventually led to Off Limits?

1:37Of course. It's really interesting standing in the place you are and then looking back at all of the stuff that you've done. Because when you're in it, it feels chaotic and not always right. And directionally, I feel like always I was like, where am I going? But just kind of trying to always bring good people, good food, good art around me. In Starting Off Limits, it's really cool how all of that stuff had this like common thread that felt so disjointed as I was in it before. My background is really in fashion, food, art, design, like kind of across the board. I went to school for fashion design.

2:14I was doing trend forecasting for a while, global ingredient reports, global trend reports on food and design and restaurants and in writing and researching. I was doing a lot of traveling trying to like really experience these trends firsthand and wanted to connect with different creative people in cities around the world. So I thought the best way to do that would be to work with chefs who don't normally serve breakfast so they could open their doors in the morning. These Michelin star chefs and like tasting menu restaurants would take a break from their tasting menus and prepare this family style breakfast for a bunch of artists and creatives for no other reason other than just getting peers together and connecting in the morning and having creative conversations.

3:02And it was really cool to see how many businesses were started out of that, how many friends were made, how many like books, cookbooks were commissioned, like so much stuff happened out of those events. It was really special, all while doing freelance writing and any project I could get my hands on that sparked any kind of joy. So I think what you mentioned just now about having different interests in food, fashion, design, and writing is very relatable for our listeners. So what is your advice for people who might have multiple interests? How do they bridge them together, use their passion, and start a business?

3:40The best advice for that really is you can't plan for it. You have to just be in it. I really try and train myself on what I'm feeling intuitively, what my gut feels, anything that I'm like, hmm, this is really interesting. And if it sparks something for you, dive in as deep as you can, as long as you want. And in doing that, it might seem really chaotic or not focused, or you're not on a really direct path. And my path was really untraditional. I did not have a traditional full-time corporate kind of job prior to this I had my own businesses I cobbled together tons of projects and there's many paths to entrepreneurship and every path looks completely different so when you're in it it is extremely hard I mean I'm in it right now I don't know what the next phase of everything is going to be but I know when I look back that now is going to be a pivotal time in shaping what I'm going to be in the future.

4:42So you just kind of have to have that mindset and trust the process in a very real way, which is always easier said than done. Perspective when you're looking back makes a lot of sense, especially with the concept of off limits, vegan, gluten-free, no artificial ingredients. These are all the things that people will love to have in their breakfast cereals, but how do you actually go about bringing this idea to life and start creating the products and also building the brand? Just a simple question. So it really started, so as I was doing these breakfast events, I ended up getting an amazing cookbook deal opportunity with my favorite publisher on the planet, Fidin.

5:27And I was so honored to get to spend three years researching and developing 380 breakfast recipes from around the world. So I really ended up in this niche that felt super special. What people eat in the morning, how people wake up and want to nourish themselves. Even if you don't eat breakfast in the morning, breakfast for dinner, it's just like that. It's so wholesome and dependable. And cereal is really the star of all of that. To me, when I turned in the cookbook, I was kind of winding down events. I was ready for something new. I wanted to like dive in and really grow something big. I was going through a lot of personal life changes and these mascots just kind of started to come to me.

6:15I am obsessed with cartoons and animation and brand building and brand architecture like San Rio. So Hello Kitty, all of Hello Kitty's friends and just how big of an empire that is. So it was never just about, okay, I'm starting a cereal brand. It really started with the mascots and pouring my own emotions into their extreme personalities and the emotions that I know that a lot of other creative people have, that entrepreneurs have. So they're all really meant to mimic how you're feeling at various times of day, various times of your life. And that's what makes them feel so real to me and to so many other people.

6:56And product-wise, cereal is extremely challenging to make, which I learned the hard way, but it had to be cereal. Cereal is the only product in the grocery store that carries culture in this really unique way. It's already built in that people expect mascots. There's animated content, there's toys, there's fun it's one of the coolest I think marketing storytelling products available and it just hasn't been updated in decades like Tony the Tiger's not fun anymore it feels nostalgic there's a level of like respect and you know deliciousness that you reserve for these legacy brands but there was nothing that was like hey we need to do better ingredient wise like why are there chemicals in here?

7:44Why is this not plant-based? It's a cereal. This is weird and creepy. And why are there no relatable mascots? What is the next generation of cereal eaters deserve to grow up with? And some of these bigger legacy brands I feel have fumbled in their storytelling. And I really wanted to pick up where I felt it just kind of organically created. I mean, And if you think about what mascots look like for millennials and Gen Z, it really is like full of anxiety, full of depression, full of like all of these like bigger emotions that we're not afraid to talk about ever. There needed to be a new brand in the space that wasn't afraid to address that either.

8:24Hence why, you know, Off Limits is also super defiant name. And also these mascots are so true to everyone growing up in their core memories. So I'm so glad you're changing the narrative and instilling some new characters for new consumers. And I know that another big part of the growth for Off Limits is your participation in different incubator programs and getting that experience and kind of building up the business. So what's your advice for entrepreneurs who are also looking at incubator programs to hopefully help them launch and build a business? Yeah, incubators are helpful. I think it depends on what your skill set is.

9:07Number one, as an entrepreneur, you need to know you are not going to be able to do everything well. You're going to have to understand everything and know how to educate yourself on hiring the right people. And you're not always going to do that well either. And you're going to learn over that process. So being a part of incubators will really help you kind of fill in the blanks and mitigate the amount of mistakes that you're going to make along the way and they can really be helpful and supportive. I will say just like anything else, you have to interview them in the same way that they're interviewing you.

9:42It very much has to be a holistic and real relationship. Otherwise, you're not going to get the benefit out of it. If they don't inherently get you or the type of brand you're building, when it makes sense, it's great and it's amazing. always have good legal representation you need to make sure that you feel comfortable and everything and a lot of those deals can hide a lot of stuff not you know always intentionally but you want to make sure that you have somebody who has your best interests at stake because you're so busy building the brand there's like all this pressure you're trying to launch you're doing all these things and these few key pieces can sometimes fall by the wayside and you don't want that to come back around later.

10:23So definitely do your research and feel represented properly. So for new founders, when they're starting out this business side of their idea and actually launching, what's something that they need to keep in mind that they might not actually even think about? So I learned a few things coming from the creative side of things over the business side, And I think it really set us up for success. Number one is I got an amazing lawyer like right off the bat. Never, ever, ever skimp on finding a really good lawyer. And that doesn't need to be like, you know, one of the top firms that's super expensive.

11:01It's somebody who really knows what you're doing, especially in the startup space, because they're going to be your confidant. My lawyer is a really expensive therapist to me sometimes, but he has got me out of so many situations and you just need to be with somebody who you really trust. So he set up, you know, making sure all the mascots, all the IP was protected. That's so important. And that's something that unfortunately brands don't always think about because you're really in the weeds on so many other things, but protecting the brand, whether there's mascots or not, just the IP is the major value of what you're building.

11:37Yeah. And I think that's so important because to your point, the incubator has to be complimentary and supportive for the business you're trying to build and you should be interviewing them in the same time you're trying to apply to them as well i've also found with incubators you really have to ask for what you want too like they're there to support you but you need to know what to ask for you need to know like how to ask for help and to never be afraid to ask for help and never be afraid especially to share when things are challenging. Like that is exactly why they're there, which is again, why it's so important to find people who you really trust and believe in you and what you're building.

12:15I think the other big hurdle with entering the cereal aisle and also this legacy industry is that breakfast is so habitual. So you're also asking consumers to take a chance on off limits to change their habits. So how did you go about first getting the brand advocacy, the marketing for Off Limits to start off? Well, my background is in fashion and I've seen the way that successful fashion brands launch and really applied it to food, which I don't see very often. you have one shot at being really cool at the beginning and like owning your vision your voice being creative and weird and interesting and just like you have one shot to like purely be like this is who we are it's crazy and fun and different and if you don't like it like we don't care kind of thing it's almost like the too cool for school attitude and that you know attracts like somewhat of an early adopter audience and a niche market and you're kind of sitting there like okay you guys are cool like these are the people who I actually want to be buying the cereal but shoot I just raised money we have to scale we have to do all this stuff like how do we get to like the next level and get other people to like us and I think a lot of brands really skip that stage because you're in that like panic mode of growth at all costs but then you end up really cannibalizing yourself in the end because people don't have time to actually connect with with the product and with a new product coming out every day in every category loyalty is understandably really tough so in already knowing that I was like I'm just gonna build a cool brand that I really like I want to hang out with these mascots the cereal is actually so delicious it has the most thoughtful ingredients possible it's very much the if you build it they will come mentality.

14:16And I hope that that brings in the right people. Marketing, one side of the business, the other side is production, which is such a large feat for food companies and companies that are product-based in general. What's your advice for founders entering that first production run? What are some things that they need to keep in mind for manufacturing and logistics? understand how complicated it is to make your product and where the major issues can go wrong we really went from zero to 60 like cereal is immediately you are working with recipe developers on mass scale production there is no we're doing a small production to test this out and see if anyone likes it it's very much we're gonna make 20 ,000 boxes and very much hope that people like it because with certain products you just you have to launch at a certain scale and even that is like the minimum so I would be very conscious of when you have this amazing idea for your product understand what the minimum order quantities are in that category and make sure that you that's a product that you actually want to launch with because the other option would be you can launch with something that maybe is like a little bit less supply chain intensive at the beginning and then scale up as you become stronger as a brand and as an operator to then be doing more of those kind of complex type products so we launched you know during 2020 so we've faced every hurdle under the sun whether they were in our control or not while we're still you know learning and developing the brand and it's absolutely been super tough but we've made it through and and now I feel like we have a really solid supply chain set up and we're still going to face a million hurdles through it but it feels like we've kind of reached a milestone you know like in a video game where um like you die and then you go back to level one but then when you get to like level five you die and then you like get to level five you're not like all the way back at the beginning it like kind of gives you a little bit of an edge I feel like we kind of have that little step up we're still at the bottom of the next level but like we're at least not going back to zero right now or at least that's how it feels so it's it's definitely incremental yeah yeah like all those hard lessons definitely amount to the learnings and it helps you to your point attack the next level it's crazy to think about because while you're figuring out all the production the branding creating the mascots you're also fundraising at the same time so it does feel like a million jobs in one so yeah talk to us about having that successful fundraising and raising over two million dollars while you were still running the operations of the business as well.

17:19Yeah, I did not know anything about raising money. I didn't have an MBA. I didn't have the college connections. I didn't have, you know, a network around me that had a lot of capital to throw at this. Like I really was starting my network from scratch. So I knew in tandem with building out the mascots and the creative side and like being so just excited to build this brand, figuring out the supply chain. In the background, I was taking Harvard Business School classes. I was reading every book on startups, on raising, on everything. And I spent like almost a year fully deep dive educating myself on the process.

17:56And obviously there's an immense amount to learn always, but I think that is really what set me up for success. And the best way to learn is just you got to get those initial meetings. You have to start pitching over and over and over again. My first round, I had like 300 pitch meetings or something, and maybe like five or six people ended up coming in, and that gave us what we needed. So I know people talk about this a lot, but I need to like fully write it home in that, especially as a solo founder, when you are raising, it is a majority of your job and your time and everything, but you are still expected to fully run the business, which is why pre-launch, it's the best time ever because you're not like against any timeline.

18:42You can really kind of push things and move things around and really like set up your organizational structure in a way that will set you up for success long-term. Thank you for all of the really candid learnings and practical advice. We're going to definitely dig deeper into the creative side of Off Limits. Before we do that, I wanted to take a moment to thank our listeners for tuning in to Shopify masters. The best way to support the show is to follow wherever you're listening now and make sure to leave us a review or share this episode with a friend. Thank you so much. So the creative aspect for off limits is really the heart of the brand and it's so hard, but also important for founders to nail down visual elements.

19:27What's your advice there for someone who's not experienced in the creative world to actually think about when they're trying to visualize a brand or have things in mind when they're trying to develop with a partner those essential brand elements. I think this goes back to just really knowing what your strengths are and like what you want to work on versus what you really don't want to work on. My strength really is in this brand building side. So from day one, I walked into these investor meetings having Pentagram doing our packaging design. Astrid Stavro, one of the partners at the UK office, and I met her because she designed my cookbook and we stayed in touch.

20:12And then she loved this idea and kind of dove in and all these people really took a chance on us early on because I built this really strong creative network and creative people want to dive in on cool projects. And as long as the deal is like really thoughtful and respectful for everybody, there's so many ways to structure it so that you can come in and like build out your brand. And it doesn't have to cost like an immense amount of capital at the beginning, especially for Shopify. Like we worked with Sam Faulkner and Kevin Green on the website design and development. And I mean, they had like a full scope of like how crazy the mascots were.

20:49I have like full briefs on them. And I was like, go absolutely nuts. Like I want you to do nothing like you've ever done before. I don't even want this to feel like a typical D2C site. Go crazy. And it was fun for everybody to work on. And then we came out with this like, you know, wacky, like totally new type of way that brands can have their websites represented. It doesn't always have to be so transactional and like sales focus. And I'm very much more focused on play and kind of creating like a fan page, because that is to a certain extent what it feels like. And then we worked with Shepard Fairey, like one of the most renowned artists, especially in the street art space and his studio, studio number one in LA.

21:33And we worked with them for, God, it had to be like eight months on a million iterations of all of the mascots. It was so fun. And something that we, like I said before, only something you can really do in the beginning. So we really kind of created this really cool process between a bunch of different creative people. I love the mascots because not only are they really fun and bold, but you've also used them as a moment to bring in the topic of being inclusive. Talk to us why that design element was so important. This kind of goes back to just being genuine about what you're building. I think it's really clear when brands try and be like, you know, inclusive about things.

22:21And we launched the first ever female cereal mascot, which I'm so proud of, but also like appalled by that we were the ones that had to do that over so many decades of cereal existing, the only ones who felt confident enough to claim like, no, this is an awesome, like badass, like female entrepreneur bunny and her name is Dash and here's her whole story. And like we went in on it and it wasn't forced at all. It was built in from the beginning and it actually wasn't even after we had all the mascots done did I realize that like, oh my God, there's no female mascots represented in the cereal aisle at all.

23:01it really was like built in from the beginning and then we realized this thing after and i'm like oh wow we have to like really talk about this because that's not cool and i hope that we can inspire other brands too to own that in other categories love it and i think throughout our conversation we talked a lot about meeting different creatives whether it's through your events or your writing that have really then come together and help you build the brand in different ways for founders who are thinking about looking for creative partners or outsourcing creative elements. What are some important things they should keep in mind when they're looking for either an agency or freelance help?

23:46My advice would be try and be different. Like there's nothing wrong with working. Like agencies are amazing. Like I've worked with quite a few agencies, but I'd say if it's a CPG agency, even though they will bring like freshness and diversity to like the brand that you're building, they're an agency because there's a common thread in their design. And I think that there's strength in that when you're building a CPG company, but it just depends on the type of brand you build. If you're really trying to be an outlier and like forge a new path in the design and in the product category, then I would say it's going to take a little bit longer.

24:26You have to find someone who really connects with your brand. And even for bits and pieces of things, even a different animation studio, Team Legend, like they do the animated versions of our mascots. And when I want like a specific version of a mascot, they do it. And I ask someone else for something else. So I think a lot of brands undervalue creative and underpay for creative. So Off Limits, I hope, is a really good example of what happens when creatives are brought into the conversation from day one and can really like unite to build something that is more than just transactional. Yeah. And also to just circle back on the concept of community, I think one of the previous conversations we had was also you mentioned the version of your community wasn't hundreds or millions of followers on social.

25:19It is the niche communities you've had face-to-face through those events. And I think so many times we talk to founders and a lot of people recently talk about you need to have a community first before you launch a brand. I just wanted to get your take on carving out a community, whichever version of it means to you, and actually have those in-person connections. There is nothing stronger than doing something in person, in my opinion. and like bringing people together over food, letting people connect in a way that is just real and doesn't feel like it's like overly branded or pushed. There is so much value in that.

26:01And again, this kind of goes back to my comment about growth. When you're under pressure to grow at all costs, you're sacrificing that hospitality. I mean, it's customer acquisition costs. Like you can buy customers, if you put enough ads in front of them, they're gonna buy your product at some point. But my thesis is that if you want to build a long-term brand, that it's just a low and slow process. And if you want that quality customer, quality community of people who are genuinely excited to help you build the brand and be a part of it and support you over time, you have to prove that you deserve their relationship attention and especially money.

26:43Times are tough. So for anyone who's buying a brand, they deserve the respect of paying attention to them. And I think the way that we do that really well is through some of these like custom collaboration box projects and really going in on specific countercultures. We just did a really cool partnership with Call of Duty and they're celebrating their 20th anniversary. so Zombie from day one has always been our midnight gamer and it says on the back of the box even so the team saw that and they're like oh this would be really cool so we ended up getting a glow in the dark box together that has a monkey bomb which is an element from the game and we got this box together in like three weeks and we were able to then be a part of their launch event and really speak to a totally new community that we wouldn't have access to in a way that is like on their turf and like really respectful and like offering them food and snacks like while they're learning about the game and playing and we built in so many easter eggs on the box like that was super important I'm never afraid to like wipe our mascots or our kind of likeness to make room for the community we're actually speaking to.

28:06And then of course, I think you've done so much over just three short years with Off Limits. I would love to wrap things up and ask you, what's your final piece of advice for founders who are potentially also entering legacy industries where they have to compete with large conglomerates? What would you like to say to them? My advice would be that you have the vision and you're going to hear everybody's opinion constantly, especially at the beginning, especially going into a legacy category. And putting on your blinders feels really scary and almost counterintuitive when you're building a business because you want comps, you want all this stuff, like this information feels like it should be really helpful.

28:54But what I've found the most helpful is when I just full-on have blinders on and I'm like, I am building this brand as if it's the first time I'm entering this space. I know nothing about it. My intuition is the most correct in those cases because I'm not taking any outside influences. So the advice would be truly trust your gut and put your blinders on. Thank you so much for being here, Emily. looking forward to all the new flavors and mascots from Off Limits. Yeah, thank you so much. This was so fun. That's Emily Miller, the CEO and founder of Off Limits. Special shout out to our team here at Shopify Masters.

29:37Gogo Zogar and Megan Coyle produce the show. Our engineers are Miku Betlam and Matt Shorts. Benjamin Golib is our supervising producer and I'm your host, Shuang Eser Shan. If you're still listening, go ahead and hit that follow button, leave us a review and let us know which brands you'd like to see featured on the show. We'll see you next time on Shopify Masters.