S2 Ep14: Ep.14 The Fractional CMO Podcast - Kristy Hunter from Hunter Marketing Co.

18:03Kristy Hunter:I agree totally. I just think that marketers, business leaders who are in charge of content, that it comes back to what are they hoping to achieve? Are they solving a problem? problem um is it meaningful is it human-centered because when those things aren't present it

18:26Simon:doesn't mean much i totally agree so let's ask a couple of other questions because you've talked about roi and i want to i want to talk touch on roi in a minute but before you do that one of the other channels challenges that we've got and i think one of the other reasons for this explosion of content is there are so many channels now competing for attention. And I feel that that's always been a thing. There's always so many channels. But when you look 15 years ago, you were going, oh, it's Instagram and it's Facebook, and that's what you had to worry about. But now you've got this short form videos, you've got podcasts, you've got newsletters, you've got LinkedIn, you've got all the other social media channels, you've got all the streaming services as well.

19:09Simon:How does a marketer decide where they should be actually concentrating their effort?

19:17Kristy Hunter:I always go back to where is your ideal client, you know, and, and there look, there could be across multiple channels, but where do they mostly hang out? Where are they researching? Where are they kind of sitting and consuming content the most? Where's the biggest opportunity for your business. So in any of my strategies, I could say, yeah, you could be all across all these different channels, but ultimately what's going to, you know, if we focus on one or two and go hard on those, you're going to make the most impact, right? Like you can be stretched because, you know, again, it's the type of content, you know, which is it short form?

20:03Kristy Hunter:Is it written? Is it video? You know, what is it? So it's all about making sure that it's manageable also for teams.

20:12Simon:I think the other challenge, I'll throw that one back at you as well now. Not that I'm going to argue with everything you say today, but, you know, it makes for better content anyway. My question to you with this is that I then feel that back in the day, so let's say 10 years ago, 15 years ago, you could really define those channels and those content channels around some level of kind of demographic, right? You'd sit there and go like Snapchat. Snapchat, I feel, still has its own demographic. That's largely teenagers and those kind of things, right? But you look at the channels today and you just go, my God, they are fractured by demographics and they're fractured by content.

20:57Simon:you know content it's it's hugely varied in terms of the content that you find on these channels how do they how do they deal with that because it's it's hard going oh where am I going to find 35 year old men who want to buy a car I mean where the fuck do you find them now it's it's like there is no chat there is no there is no channel for that yeah yeah and I think this is when it

21:24Kristy Hunter:comes back to what's the strategy, what's the message, you know, what is the campaign and being really targeted. And it's the test and learn, optimize that I talk about all the time with my clients as well. Like, you know, there's a starting point. If things aren't working, then we adjust and then we go from there. But it's, you know, is what you're saying or selling compelling to that particular audience and you know creating some uh amazing content um is is

21:59Simon:the starting point is is from a roi perspective is it as simple as going i spent this much money we did this how many views did we get um you know how many my dog's about to bark now just to ruin the entire recording because the postman's rocked up anyway um but is it as simple as counting you know i've sold this many widgets because i did this much thing is there other other ways of

22:30Kristy Hunter:sort of measuring return on these things but isn't that the the biggest thing that you can focus on though because isn't that the point of if you're getting a certain number of sales and you're achieving ROI isn't isn't that the point like why why else are we doing content apart from

22:51Simon:building brand because I find isn't it wouldn't it wouldn't consider it a hard um it's hard to draw a line between hey I posted something on Instagram and it did this I mean that in an ideal world that would be the case but you've got brand awareness you've got lots of other lots of other benefits of being on social media i often turn around to people and say hey social media is often is just social proof like you know you run an advert somewhere you put you put a billboard on a on a or a back end of a bus um someone goes then to your instagram and goes oh wow these guys are really active they then click on the link through to your website they then pick up the phone and fucking call you they've seen you four times all the way through but and then you just turn around and say where did you find out about us and they'll go oh i just called you they don't equate to this hey i saw you on the back of a bus so you've got this attribution problem so how does content how do you solve that question when it comes to when you when you think about attribution it's so kind of it's so muddy yeah i agree it's messy and that's like attribution is the hardest

24:09Kristy Hunter:thing for marketers to you know gather all that data and understand i mean i'm working really closely with one client at the moment and you know we've been working on this for probably 12 to 24 months um and there's systems issues you know there's it's a challenge it's an absolute challenge But if you're looking at the data on a monthly basis, you'll get to understand what is working and what's not across whatever channel you're focusing on, essentially. But I agree with you.

24:42Simon:You have to have that social proof.

24:45Kristy Hunter:Use certain channels for when people are going through that decision-making process. They're going to be checking, well, what are they posting on LinkedIn? And they're going to the website and making a decision. you know so absolutely um but again this i think this is a different conversation around you know where what channels the best for you know growth or what activities are best for specific you know growth goals um but i think there's absolutely importance on having you know a certain um you know using certain channels for content um you know but i think sometimes making some traction across that space is you've got to add an ads campaign on top of that.

25:33Kristy Hunter:You know what I mean? So, yeah, yeah.

25:36Simon:Okay. Look, last question and just for everyone's benefit, these five questions I had here were all done by Claude. So I just, you know, that's from a content perspective.

25:48Kristy Hunter:Hey, I gave you that first idea. That was my, that was me.

25:52Simon:The following five were done by, the other five were done by Claude. Um, you know, so I, and that's, that's, that's to me, my argument is I often go, if I had more time, I would be able to produce what Claude is producing. To me, content is about a reduction of, um, a reduction of time or an increase in efficiencies, however you want to phrase it yeah so i sit there and go the five questions that i came up with or that claude came up with were based on me giving claude a three sentence four sentence brief i could have done those questions right that's no there's no doubt about that but i've saved myself 10 minutes 15 minutes for thinking those up right um so that that that to me is the benefit and that's how i I think we should be looking at content.

26:49Simon:Could have I produced this with, you know, a thousand monkeys at typewriters? Yes, absolutely, right?

26:57Kristy Hunter:But I've done it quicker and more efficiently

26:59Simon:using this large language learning model.

27:04Kristy Hunter:Yeah, I think that there's something to say about, you know, looking at your current workflow and going, right, how can we optimize or, you know, move through these things a lot faster using AI? without a doubt. Again, I talk to my clients about that all the time. You can achieve so much more when you're, you know, looking at it that way without a doubt.

27:25Simon:Yeah. Look, the last question then actually is quite an interesting one based on what we've just said there. It's the sustainability question because keeping up with content demand is, this is Claude's, these are Claude's words, not mine. So judge, judge, however you like. Keeping up with content demand is genuinely exhausting for marketing teams. What does a sustainable content operation actually look like? And what does a burnt out one look like before it collapses?

27:57Okay.

28:00Kristy Hunter:Again, I think it works. You've got to look at current resources and what are their capabilities or skill set, right? Do you have any kind of existing process around your marketing function? If you don't, that is the place to start. You know, when I've delivered a strategy to a new client, I give them those frameworks because they don't know. Yeah. You know, so I think we have to guide, you know, business leaders and marketing teams there to go, right, this is a sustainable framework, you know, like I've got a framework that I use for my business, but also for my client's business. And it's again about doing things smarter, not harder.

28:43Kristy Hunter:So creating one piece of hero content and then repurposing it, pull bits out of it and use that across your socials, the email marketing, whatever it may be. So, so I think that there, it's about creating those frameworks first and foremost to ensure that it is achievable, sustainable for the business. Yep. And that's really what it's about. And also like, oh, sorry, you go.

29:15Simon:No, go on, you go.

29:17Kristy Hunter:Oh, I was just going to say, and just stick to it for God's sake. Yeah. Because it's that shiny object syndrome thing, right? because they'll go, right, we've got this in flow. We can introduce something else now. And sure, you could, but like get some momentum happening, get some results happening before you introduce the next thing.

29:39Simon:Yeah, yeah. What does it look like when it's about to collapse was the second half of that question. What's a red flag, just one red flag that you see where you just go, yeah, this is not sustainable, it's about to fall apart, or, you know, what do you see?

30:00Kristy Hunter:Look, I think when content is falling flat, like, you know, if you're looking at the data and you're going, well, gosh, we're doing a lot here but we don't really, you know, we're not really seeing any results here. And I think the other part is just what I just said, which is, you know, people going, oh, you can do all this. Oh, like surely you can do more, push more onto the marketing team, you know, or whoever's doing the content. So that's kind of what I see.

30:32Simon:Yeah, yeah. I think the interesting thing I think you said there as well is where it's about repurposing content. You don't necessarily, the whole shitty management phrase works smarter, not harder, right? Right. And an example of that will be Wednesday morning. I'm going to do a podcast on my own. Just talk for 20 minutes because I love the sound of my own voice. But I'm going to talk for 20 minutes about how to price yourself. Right. And I could do that with you. I could do that with Tommy. I could do that with Josh. Right. I could do that with different people. But again, I'm going to, I'm just going to sort through my thoughts in terms of all the reasons and ways of pricing yourself as a consultant that I've heard over the years.

31:24Simon:And I've fucking heard a lot of them. Yes. So I'm going to just do that and go, okay, well, there's five different ways of pricing yourself. And here are the five ways. And none of them are right. None of them are wrong. It's what suits you in the particular time and space that you're in at that moment. Right. but i'll record that and that will that will go on to our um that'll go on to our podcast channel it'll then go into youtube i'll share it through linkedin um i will then get it transcribed i'll create a blog for it but also more importantly i will then take it to we've got an ebook about things that you've got to do before you become a um a fractional chief a fractional cmo i will add that as a new section within the ebook and re and re-add the ebook back to the download page so people can have it for free etc etc so just in that what i think is probably going to be a 20 minute of my time 20 minutes of my time we are repurposing maybe seven or eight different things for four or five different channels.

32:36Simon:And that I think is where businesses need to go, okay, we don't need to create that separately for every channel. We just need to do it once and repurpose it.

32:46Kristy Hunter:Absolutely. It's a very smart way of doing it.

32:49Simon:Yeah. And I think a lot of businesses don't quite get that yet.

32:56Kristy Hunter:no because i think they're stuck on well what should we put out and what like what are we putting out why are we putting it out like that's you know it's the yeah they don't they don't know

33:08Simon:how to do a lot of that yeah okay your last last tip for you from today um you know obviously there's there's there's a lot in what you've said today there's a lot of um you know i think everything you said around process, measuring, et cetera, et cetera, all of those really, really good things. Is there anything else that you feel we haven't touched on when it comes to that content side of things? I know we've kind of gone off on a few, uh, a few tangent, but, but that's, we do that every time we have a conversation. So that, that's not to be, that's not to be unexpected. Um, anything else that you feel that there's, there's, you know, something that you can say to other businesses who are sitting staring in the abyss of a content execution plan?

33:59Kristy Hunter:Yeah, look, I think that some businesses just get into a rhythm of just putting stuff out and not having the strategy behind it. Because there's a lot of people going, oh gosh, I don't know what to put out this week or next week or, you know, what's a topic that's going to resonate with my ideal client or audience? But if you have a solid strategy to begin with, that's all in there. The frameworks as well can be put into that. You know, how do we do this? Like what is the content that we're putting out and for what purpose? Who are we speaking to? What are the sort of results do we want to get from this?

34:39Kristy Hunter:So the strategy is like a very solid starting point for your business. And then you can go, right, well, we shouldn't divert from that then. Test that out for at least 90 days. Are you executing it well? Are you, you know, getting the content out at a high standard? It's not content for the sake of content. It's being really intentional about it. So that is where I would just, you know, divert your attention to that.

35:10Simon:I'm going to argue with you on that as well, right? Because.

35:14Kristy Hunter:Of course you are.

35:18Simon:Why? Why? Why must you always argue with everybody? Why must you do this? It's one of those. I've become very much more self-aware in the past 10 years about what a pain in the ass I can be. But it's like, the interesting thing is that doesn't stop me being a pain in the ass. It just means that I'm more aware of me being a pain in the ass. No, no, but this is a serious no. I think there is an, I think everything you've said is absolutely 100 % true and valid and all that. And I don't want anyone to think that what you're saying is not right because it is absolutely right. I'd also, I'd also then, but I would also kind of say to businesses, it's okay just to start doing something without a plan.

36:03Simon:right sure i think if you are sitting there going i just want to do something is spend three months just producing anything and find find your sweet spot find what's good for you find a rhythm find a a channel find a medium if it's blogging it's blogging if it's taking photos it's taking photos if it's doing i tried doing illustrations once for two cents like comic strips like fun comic strips and i was like i like doing these but are they going to get any cut through you know but fuck it let's give it a go and let's let's let's try these things out so i i would say to yes have a plan yes understand your target market yes all those kind of things sometimes just fucking do something you know something that you'll go and let's just experiment with this is it with is that a fair counter argument to what you said?

37:00Kristy Hunter:I suppose. Look, I don't disagree in the sense that if you're feeling creative and you want to put something out there, yeah, do that, but just have a purpose. It has to relate to your business. I've seen so much content put out and I go, what does this business even do? It just doesn't relate. So, be creative, absolutely test it out, put it, yeah, put it out there, but bring it back to, well, why are you doing it? Like,

37:31Simon:make sure there's a purpose behind it. Yeah. It's funny because I go, I, a couple of, six months ago, I was sitting with some friends of mine who I, who I play poker with once every two months, once every three months. Right. And I said to them, I want to play some board games. I want to play some big board games. That's why there's loads of board games on the wall behind me right ones that take three hours whatever and i said let's just put a post somewhere let's see who we can find who else wants to do this um and i and i put a post out there i said hey we all want to go down the pub and play some board games is anyone interested in doing this on a friday night and i i tell this story a lot because i go i thought i might get five or six people i'd have been happy with five or six people right that friday night we had uh 25 people turn up and we're like wow okay shit i then posted all the photos of those 25 people drinking beer and playing ball games at our local pub and i posted them in a facebook group a 4069 group right for my postcode and i said hey if anyone else is interested in doing this again because we had a great time.

38:43Simon:I've got a little WhatsApp group. Join the WhatsApp group. We have 220 people in that WhatsApp group now.

38:52Kristy Hunter:You had purpose and it's human centered.

38:55Simon:Yeah. No. Okay. Okay. All right.

38:58Kristy Hunter:You've countered me with that argument, but my point was, but, but, okay.

39:04Simon:So then I sat there and went and out of that group, then a guy says, Hey, I want you to come and do this in another suburb and i'm like oh jesus christ like i can't he goes i've got a venue that you can use in another suburb and i'm right and i'll give it to you for free so to your point sometimes i think what we're getting at here is when it comes to content purpose and being human centered those those two things there has to be a tick in those two boxes right there has to be a tick in purpose there has to be a tick in human centered strategy long-term objectives fuck that for the minute, right?

39:40Simon:You can work that out as you go, right? But you can. No.

39:45Kristy Hunter:Yes, you can. You can, you can, but don't go on for 12 months like that.

39:53Simon:Okay, okay, okay. All right, we're compromised. I don't know. I think there's some things you could go on for 12 months ago. I still don't know why I'm doing this. I still don't know the long-term objective. Look, in businesses, is it's much more serious you know we've got to talk about you know there's money involved here you yes you know you need you need to make money time there's time there's money there's people involved if if you have got if you have got that flexibility i don't think it's it's i don't think there's you've got if you've got that flexibility you've got a little bit more leeway around time and put you know and and all those kind of things so i just don't want i i do understand everything think you say but i just don't want everyone to get caught up in the thing where they go you know christy says i've got to be planned and we've got to be doing this and this thing unless we do this and and i and and that's unfair me suggesting that that's it's all your fault but oh my god no but my point is i think there is a balance between i think there's a plan balance between actively planning and sometimes just doing something and seeing what happens and seeing how it resonates with your, with your market, with your market and your target market and those things.

41:13Kristy Hunter:Yeah. I just think having that strategy and the plan gives you more confidence ultimately, right? Like it gives you direction. And so, yeah, absolutely. And you can play within that plan you know you can test the waters but just have a structure you know like go right i'm going to post this every month okay have some fun with the type of content absolutely but just because if you you know all over the place with it you're just not gonna ultimately achieve anything

41:47Simon:maybe maybe this is maybe this is intrinsically the different personalities between you and i

41:53Kristy Hunter:I was just going to say that I'm planned and organized mostly and you're a little looser.

42:01Simon:We always joke in the business.

42:03Kristy Hunter:And this is where I have to pull you up from time to time.

42:05Simon:This is where we joke in the business is that we always sort of made the comparison between, like it was the Starship Enterprise, whereas I'm Captain Kirk and Matt was like Scotty in the engine room, right? So Scotty in the engine room was like, no, we can't do that, Captain. it's going to take six hours and all this kind of thing and captain kirk's going let's land on this planet let's meet these aliens let's do all these kind of things and it's that sort of you know some somehow those things work together and uh you know and i think a lot of a lot of good businesses have that balance between somebody who's yeah not necessarily the handbrake but someone who's holding the reins knows when to sort of pull back sometimes but if you don't have a business where someone's going let's do this let's do this let's do this it can be very it can be very slow they can be very very slow to evolve or grow and those kind of things unless there's someone throwing those ridiculous ideas out there every now and again so yeah absolutely i think it's a it's a balance you gotta find the balance anyway that's possible what was supposed to be a 20 minute conversation that turned into a 42 minute conversation so uh i whether anyone will listen to any of this whatsoever, I don't know, but hopefully we'll get some good blog and some snippets out of it as well.

43:24Simon:So, look, thank you very much for your time. Where can people find you if they need to find you other than the CIMO website, which they can obviously find you on that?

43:35Kristy Hunter:Yeah, definitely look me up on LinkedIn, Christy Hunter, fractional marketing officer and marketing advisor. And I'm also at huntermarketing.co on my website.

43:50Simon:Thank you very much for your time. It is always fantastic having an argument with you and appreciate your time.

43:57Kristy Hunter:My pleasure. Thanks. See you later. Bye.